Do You Really Want to Be a Dentist?

[UltraTooth]

Pay closes attention to these words, spoken in 1987:

"Many of the 57 other dental schools in the United States have cut back the size of their classes, unable to attract enough qualified applicants. According to the American Association of Dental Schools, applications have dropped by almost two-thirds since 1975. The academic quality of the applicants has declined, too. High Tuition and Debt


And dental schools face other problems: Tuition that tops $15,000 a year at some private dental schools discourages many applicants, as does the fact that the average private dental school graduate has educational debts of $51,000.


But the main cause for the declining interest in dental school is a widespread perception that advances in dental care have diminished the public's need for dentistry.


''We've done a very good job of preventing dental decay, and the birth control pill has done a very good job of reducing the population of children that was expected,'' said the dean of Emory's dental school, Dr. Dwight R. Weathers.

''So there is reduced demand for dentistry,'' he added. '''There have been a lot of articles saying how terrible things are for dentists, and that image, along with the high cost of dental education, obviously enters into young people's decisions about what career to pursue.''

Source - the New York Times. Ask yourself -- are things truly better for dental graduates today? Or are we headed towards the same bleak outlook?

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[jttzz112]

Pay closes attention to these words, spoken in 1987:

"Many of the 57 other dental schools in the United States have cut back the size of their classes, unable to attract enough qualified applicants. According to the American Association of Dental Schools, applications have dropped by almost two-thirds since 1975. The academic quality of the applicants has declined, too. High Tuition and Debt


And dental schools face other problems: Tuition that tops $15,000 a year at some private dental schools discourages many applicants, as does the fact that the average private dental school graduate has educational debts of $51,000.


But the main cause for the declining interest in dental school is a widespread perception that advances in dental care have diminished the public's need for dentistry.


''We've done a very good job of preventing dental decay, and the birth control pill has done a very good job of reducing the population of children that was expected,'' said the dean of Emory's dental school, Dr. Dwight R. Weathers.

''So there is reduced demand for dentistry,'' he added. '''There have been a lot of articles saying how terrible things are for dentists, and that image, along with the high cost of dental education, obviously enters into young people's decisions about what career to pursue.''

Source - the New York Times. Ask yourself -- are things truly better for dental graduates today? Or are we headed towards the same bleak outlook?

I feel like based on your previous posts you are cherry picking information. from the same article.....

"The American Dental Association argues vehemently that while the image of the profession may be suffering, the practice is not.

''We have no evidence that demand for dental services is declining,'' said Tony Kiser, secretary of the American Dental Association's Council on Dental Practice. ''The nation's total budget for dental services last year was $29.6 billion, the highest it's ever been.'' Income and Enrollment

Dr. Kiser says that dentists' average income, too, has been rising steadily, to $69,980 in 1985, the last year for which figures are available."

"Many experts point out, however, that the relative supply and demand of dentists is a cyclical phenomenon, with the ups and downs controlled in good part by Federal aid programs. Influence of Federal Aid

Although fewer people may be becoming dentists than in the 1970's, they say, enrollment and applicant levels are similar to those of the mid-1960's, when there was serious national concern about a shortage of dentists."

"''The problem has always been to get the supply and demand in balance, and it seems we're always going up and down,'' Dr. Weathers of Emory said. ''The issue now is whether we are going to overreduce the supply so much that we'll have a shortage of dentists a few years down the road.''"

 

[FanOfCostco]

Better title for post "I have nothing better to do so here's a pointless article"

 

[allantois]

Did I just travel back in time??

 

[deleted696582]

Yeah I guess.

 

[UltraTooth]

Actually, JTTZZ drives my point further home. My posting ends by asking the question "are things really different today"? Are caries rates back up to pre-1980s level? Are there more dental schools around today than after the spate of dental closures that prompted the article? Are the current tuition levels higher than they were (in 1980 dollars)?

I am not seeing any meaningful rebuttals to my post.

 

[allantois]

$50,000 in 1980 is equivalent to $150,000 today. You won’t even find such a great tuition tag!

US Inflation Calculator

 

[Iroh]

I don't want to be a dentist



I need to be a dentist

 

[pookatooth]

Actually, JTTZZ drives my point further home. My posting ends by asking the question "are things really different today"? Are caries rates back up to pre-1980s level? Are there more dental schools around today than after the spate of dental closures that prompted the article? Are the current tuition levels higher than they were (in 1980 dollars)?

I am not seeing any meaningful rebuttals to my post.

With the retiring population of baby boomers that are going to need dental care, I think the emphasis of our generation's dental care won't be on children's caries but rather old timer's periodontal disease, dentures, implants, and oral health. The expectations of the aging population has changed from previous decades as well, they are now expecting to carry their native teeth to the grave with them. This changing perception of what constitutes "normal tooth life" will translate to increased elective dental spending, I think.

If a new graduate is able to get into a *relatively* affordable state school or exit debt free after military service they would be in a good position to set up shop near these populations that are going to need dental care. I even see the opportunity for the marriage of geriatric PCPs, at-home care nurses, geriatric dental specialists, and other ancillary staff in a private practice setting that could be very lucrative.

My generation of dentists are not (or rather should not) be going in to become a dentist for the same exact reason as pre-1980s dentists. It is not the same market nor the same environment for dentists. This is common sense because we exist in a fluid market that changes constantly and would be apparent to anyone that pays attention. I believe that dentistry still holds a great and upstanding profession for people that are willing to work hard and ingeniously.

 

[Stanelz]

Baby boomers retiring just made me realize how many people are gonna need dentures. fml i hate dentures.

 

[FanOfCostco]

Baby boomers retiring just made me realize how many people are gonna need dentures. fml i hate dentures.

Bruhhhh I feel ya.

 

[MLC45]

Baby boomers retiring just made me realize how many people are gonna need dentures. fml i hate dentures.

Don’t think of baby boomers needing dentures. Instead think of baby boomers being able to afford implants. Things look a lot better with that view point!

 

[Conflagration]

Dentistry is a lot more business-like in nature than other professions, and so the savvy dentists end up doing a lot better than someone just floating along for the ride.

Every field has changed since the 1980s. We aren't living in the 1980s, and we need to quit comparing ourselves to 1980s problems. I'm not saying we can completely ignore all of the past, but if we're going to be savvy practitioners, then we need to keep up with the trends. I think it's certainly changed, but we're not like pharmacy where practitioners are driving their own salaries down because of the excess supply. If someone has a good head on their shoulders and decent sensibilities, they can make one hell of a dentist regardless of the era. There's going to be a lot of retiring professionals and the older population is going to need dental maintenance, whether that's with dentures or maintaining the teeth they still have.

 

[FanOfCostco]

 

[allantois]

Don’t think of baby boomers needing dentures. Instead think of baby boomers being able to afford implants. Things look a lot better with that view point!

Ya know how many people have no retirement savings??

 

[MLC45]

Ya know how many people have no retirement savings??

I worked in a geriatric dental practice for 13 years. Those that came to my office had the money to spend.

 

[oralcare123]

Baby boomers will need crowns

 

[Kurk]

to answer OP's question: Yes

I've come to realize that with so many people flooding into the US every job is getting worse with pay and such.

Dentistry seems to be a near perfect match for my personality when I think into it. I have my moments when I jump to another career, but I always seem to come back to teeth.

I can be a poor associate dentist working for scraps after accounting for debt, but then again, aren't we all slaves?

 

[allantois]

to answer OP's question: Yes

I've come to realize that with so many people flooding into the US every job is getting worse with pay and such.

Dentistry seems to be a near perfect match for my personality when I think into it. I have my moments when I jump to another career, but I always seem to come back to teeth.

I can be a poor associate dentist working for scraps after accounting for debt, but then again, aren't we all slaves?

Nice jab at immigrants



Not!

 

[Kurk]

Nice jab at immigrants



Not!

I'm a child of immigrants so, hah!

 

[Dhudez]

Y'all really gotta chill with these anti-dentist posts on a forum full of aspiring dentists lol. Yes, we want to be dentists. Yes, we understand the outrageous tuition costs. And yes, there will always be a need for dentists (as long as we live at least). If you have a better profession in mind, then by all means go pursue it.

 

[PTSD]

No harm in passing along information, more info never hurt anybody. The consensus on dental town is that public school is still worth the debt, but borrowing 500k for a job that pays $600 a day as an associate in a major city is insane. People have the right to be fully informed and should be aware of the risks they are taking when attending a prohibitively expensive school like USC. Very rough numbers for LA would be: $600/day x4d/wk x 50wk = 120,000/yr -40%taxes(state, local, federal in CA) = 72,000. 72k -12000 in student loans( IBR rate of 10% income which doesn't even cover interest) = 60k annually ballpark. So yeah, you'll end up making more than a fireman makes, but a fireman didn't spend 8years as a broke college student and doesn't have 500k in student debt on his back.

 

[amariesa]

No harm in passing along information, more info never hurt anybody. The consensus on dental town is that public school is still worth the debt, but borrowing 500k for a job that pays $600 a day as an associate in a major city is insane. People have the right to be fully informed and should be aware of the risks they are taking when attending a prohibitively expensive school like USC. Very rough numbers for LA would be: $600/day x4d/wk x 50wk = 120,000/yr -40%taxes(state, local, federal in CA) = 72,000. 72k -12000 in student loans( IBR rate of 10% income which doesn't even cover interest) = 60k annually ballpark. So yeah, you'll end up making more than a fireman makes, but a fireman didn't spend 8years as a broke college student and doesn't have 500k in student debt on his back.

Realistically, LA is the worst city to use, its the most saturated in terms of dentist per population.
In addition, who doesnt hustle right out of school and just...works 4 days a week?Someone working in a nonsaturated market could easily make say 600 a day working 5 days a week. 600*5*50=150k as an associate pre-tax.
Also, 40% tax sounds high, are you using the rate in the tax bracket as total taxes?

I mean I agree with you but there comes a limit of exaggerating.

 

[allantois]

Realistically, LA is the worst city to use, its the most saturated in terms of dentist per population.
In addition, who doesnt hustle right out of school and just...works 4 days a week?Someone working in a nonsaturated market could easily make say 600 a day working 5 days a week. 600*5*50=150k as an associate pre-tax.
Also, 40% tax sounds high, are you using the rate in the tax bracket as total taxes?

I mean I agree with you but there comes a limit of exaggerating.

The poster above didn’t even mention TRYING to pay off loans, cause let’s be real that’s not gonna happen with average salary and that amount of tuition.

 

[oralcare123]

So.. your job security is threatened by immigrants the majority of whom is unskilled workers who don't speak English?

Sent from my SM-N950U using SDN mobile

Don't mix legal and illegal immigrants

 

[oralcare123]

No harm in passing along information, more info never hurt anybody. The consensus on dental town is that public school is still worth the debt, but borrowing 500k for a job that pays $600 a day as an associate in a major city is insane. People have the right to be fully informed and should be aware of the risks they are taking when attending a prohibitively expensive school like USC. Very rough numbers for LA would be: $600/day x4d/wk x 50wk = 120,000/yr -40%taxes(state, local, federal in CA) = 72,000. 72k -12000 in student loans( IBR rate of 10% income which doesn't even cover interest) = 60k annually ballpark. So yeah, you'll end up making more than a fireman makes, but a fireman didn't spend 8years as a broke college student and doesn't have 500k in student debt on his back.

Usually, right after school people work 6 days a week. So, if you do, you would have at least 40K more and it is good enough in the beginning. At the same time, compared to a fireman, your income will be gradually increasing culminating by a sale of your practice for a million bucks before the retirement

 

[Kurk]

The poster above didn’t even mention TRYING to pay off loans, cause let’s be real that’s not gonna happen with average salary and that amount of tuition.

Not to sound like a *****, but I was under the impression that you can pay off 325k in debt in 5 years if you live with your parents after dental school and spend frugally.

 

[amariesa]

Not to sound like a *****, but I was under the impression that you can pay off 325k in debt in 5 years if you live with your parents after dental school and spend frugally.

If AADSAS is correct, then the average age of matriculants is 24, then grads are 28.

Earning 120k a year as a new grad gets you 80k post tax. 450k loans is 27k interst at 6%. Thats 53k a year. Assuming you live off like 800$ a month for expenses and live with your mom, thats 43k a year that you can pay to the principal. Thats like 10 years. Now if youre a lady, when are you having kids? 38? when you paid 10 years of debt? If youre a dude, when are you getting married? Tell her to wait and live with your parents? Its rough.

 

[oralcare123]

The person I was replying to said jobs became worse because of people flooding in. By "becoming worse" the op indicates that the jobs get paid lower salary/wages because of the immigrants who are willing to get paid less. Unless they are less-educated/unskilled laborers/not capable of effectively communicating in English, why would they get paid less for the same job? I never mixed legal and illegal immigrants. If anything, you were mixing my words.

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I can tell you the reason. They are not used to a very high income and are willing to work harder just because that is the way things are in their home countries. Or they are not confident , or just simply taken advantage, or discriminated against.
Legal immigrants are going through a rigorous process, which does not let through a lot of unskilled/uneducated people with no language skills

 

[oralcare123]

Not to sound like a *****, but I was under the impression that you can pay off 325k in debt in 5 years if you live with your parents after dental school and spend frugally.

It's 65K a year. Perfectly possible

 

[toothdoctor123]

I am not seeing any meaningful rebuttals to my post

Quod gratis asseritur, gratis negatur.

The article simply seems to be describing the "perception" that explains why no one wanted to go to dental school in the 80s; it doesn't provide evidence that the perception was true. (I'm not saying it's untrue, but I don't see a legitimate argument within the article to which we can respond.)

 

[Kurk]

If AADSAS is correct, then the average age of matriculants is 24, then grads are 28.

Earning 120k a year as a new grad gets you 80k post tax. 450k loans is 27k interst at 6%. Thats 53k a year. Assuming you live off like 800$ a month for expenses and live with your mom, thats 43k a year that you can pay to the principal. Thats like 10 years. Now if youre a lady, when are you having kids? 38? when you paid 10 years of debt? If youre a dude, when are you getting married? Tell her to wait and live with your parents? Its rough.

Why 450k in loans? Even if my undergrad wasn't paid for it would still be max 60k extra to 325k. I have all of this calculated in an excel spreadsheet and assuming I live as an incel in my mom's basement, no spouse, I should be able to pay off my debt by age 32 assuming I get into d-school on my first try.

 

[smallmediumbig]

No harm in passing along information, more info never hurt anybody. The consensus on dental town is that public school is still worth the debt, but borrowing 500k for a job that pays $600 a day as an associate in a major city is insane. People have the right to be fully informed and should be aware of the risks they are taking when attending a prohibitively expensive school like USC. Very rough numbers for LA would be: $600/day x4d/wk x 50wk = 120,000/yr -40%taxes(state, local, federal in CA) = 72,000. 72k -12000 in student loans( IBR rate of 10% income which doesn't even cover interest) = 60k annually ballpark. So yeah, you'll end up making more than a fireman makes, but a fireman didn't spend 8years as a broke college student and doesn't have 500k in student debt on his back.

Sure, but the thing about these posts is that they come up like every 2 weeks and essentially say the same thing every time. That doesn't stop the OP from feeling as though he or she is bringing new and important info to the table though. Then there's always the one who comes in and says, "Guyz it's fine, they're just trying to inform you of something you already know." Perfect storm for coming off as condescending, which people don't respond well to. Especially people who have worked really hard for years toward a goal. Not trying to attack you personally, but like I said, I've seen this post many times over the years. There's almost a formula to how it plays out every time. Check back in a few weeks for the next one and you'll see what I mean.

 

[oralcare123]

You are assuming a lot here.

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Not really

 

[amariesa]

Why 450k in loans? Even if my undergrad wasn't paid for it would still be max 60k extra to 325k. I have all of this calculated in an excel spreadsheet and assuming I live as an incel in my mom's basement, no spouse, I should be able to pay off my debt by age 32 assuming I get into d-school on my first try.

Good for you?

 

[SoftGel]

I've worked in three industries NOT as a dentist since graduating college in 2006. The <40 hour a week jobs making $150k+ a year with little outside work stress do not exist. Dentistry is a unicorn (perpetuated by healthcare alphas all wanting to be "real" doctors). Grab it by the mane, mount up, and soar over the rainbows. **Your mileage may vary depending on student loans.

 

[Medin2017]

I've worked in three industries NOT as a dentist since graduating college in 2006. The <40 hour a week jobs making $150k+ a year with little outside work stress do not exist. Dentistry is a unicorn (perpetuated by healthcare alphas all wanting to be "real" doctors). Grab it by the mane, mount up, and soar over the rainbows. **Your mileage may vary depending on student loans.

yep. Always like how MD's stress the distinctions from DDS. Just makes it easier for our reimbursements to be different from theirs.

 

[Noice]

I've worked in three industries NOT as a dentist since graduating college in 2006. The <40 hour a week jobs making $150k+ a year with little outside work stress do not exist. Dentistry is a unicorn (perpetuated by healthcare alphas all wanting to be "real" doctors). Grab it by the mane, mount up, and soar over the rainbows. **Your mileage may vary depending on student loans.

You're not allowed to say that on SDN. Blasphemy! That's how I view it too.

Pay closes attention to these words, spoken in 1987:

"Many of the 57 other dental schools in the United States have cut back the size of their classes, unable to attract enough qualified applicants. According to the American Association of Dental Schools, applications have dropped by almost two-thirds since 1975. The academic quality of the applicants has declined, too. High Tuition and Debt


And dental schools face other problems: Tuition that tops $15,000 a year at some private dental schools discourages many applicants, as does the fact that the average private dental school graduate has educational debts of $51,000.


But the main cause for the declining interest in dental school is a widespread perception that advances in dental care have diminished the public's need for dentistry.


''We've done a very good job of preventing dental decay, and the birth control pill has done a very good job of reducing the population of children that was expected,'' said the dean of Emory's dental school, Dr. Dwight R. Weathers.

''So there is reduced demand for dentistry,'' he added. '''There have been a lot of articles saying how terrible things are for dentists, and that image, along with the high cost of dental education, obviously enters into young people's decisions about what career to pursue.''

Source - the New York Times. Ask yourself -- are things truly better for dental graduates today? Or are we headed towards the same bleak outlook?

I think this chart demonstrates a difference between today and 1980s. I hate to even acknowledge US News, but I bet they weren't naming dentistry #1 in 1987.

"Many of the 57 other dental schools in the United States have cut back the size of their classes, unable to attract enough qualified applicants. According to the American Association of Dental Schools, applications have dropped by almost two-thirds since 1975. The academic quality of the applicants has declined, too."

These charts suggest that the quality of applicants is not declining.

DS is expensive, but it seems that applicants are as optimistic as ever. That doesn't prove the doomsayers are wrong. It could very well be that a bubble is about to pop.

Average Total Resident Costs for All Four Years by Type of Institutional Sponsor, in Nominal and 2016 Dollars, 2006-07 to 2016-17