Do you think anyone can do it?

[Glazedonutlove]

No, there really are some people who are normal kids in every way and yet some breeze through school while others never quite get the hang of using letters and symbols in math. Its not about effort or willingness - many people are infuriated by their struggles where others have no issues, seek help and pour time into it and still barely pass, if that. Not all people have equal potential and the stupid do not all choose to be such.

wonder if there's a study that equalizes environmental influences

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[efle]

wonder if there's a study that equalizes environmental influences

There are many that control for it via data stratification

 

[ZedsDed]

wonder if there's a study that equalizes environmental influences

There are many, many studies that have attempted to do this. Obviously it cannot be done perfectly. If I remember correctly, research has shown intelligence to be ~40-70% heritable, though I think that is on the low side. To say that some people chose to have slower minds, as if the brain is not a physical organ subject to all of the laws of physical reality, is very false.

 

[Dr.Sticks]

No, there really are some people who are normal kids in every way and yet some breeze through school while others never quite get the hang of using letters and symbols in math. Its not about effort or willingness - many people are infuriated by their struggles where others have no issues, seek help and pour time into it and still barely pass, if that. Not all people have equal potential and the stupid do not all choose to be such.

That's why cousins shouldn't marry each other. Yes there are disadvantage folks out there with mental disabilities..
But you average kid can dedicate themselves and pass. Then again I found out that most teenage guys want to play video games, chat up girls, and maybe get laid, oh and SPORTS SPORTS SPORTS FOOOTBALL"
That's not going to make you a very accomplished and successful person. I'm not saying to have no hobbies, but you know limits..

 

[Gurby]

wonder if there's a study that equalizes environmental influences

I don't think that would be possible / ethical even if it were possible... But there are interesting case studies of identical twins reared apart - so they should both have the same "innate intelligence" but different environments.

 

[Glazedonutlove]

I don't think that would be possible / ethical even if it were possible... But there are interesting case studies of identical twins reared apart - so they should both have the same "innate intelligence" but different environments.

I meant observational obviously

 

[ZedsDed]

That's why cousins shouldn't marry each other. Yes there are disadvantage folks out there with mental disabilities..
But you average kid can dedicate themselves and pass. Then again I found out that most teenage guys want to play video games, chat up girls, and maybe get laid, oh and SPORTS SPORTS SPORTS FOOOTBALL"
That's not going to make you a very accomplished and successful person. I'm not saying to have no hobbies, but you know limits..

You are injecting a motivational speech into what is an empirical question. One which has largely been answered I might add.

 

[efle]

as if the brain is not a physical organ subject to all of the laws of physical reality, is very false.

And yet views other than hard determinism are alive and well! Not to bring phil into a discussion or anything...

 

[ZedsDed]

And yet views other than hard determinism are alive and well! Not to bring phil into a discussion or anything...

Yes, yes I know. But to say that one's mind is a "ghost in the machine" is preposterous. There is nothing magical about the brain.

 

[Dr.Sticks]

You are injecting a motivational speech into what is an empirical question. One which has largely been answered I might add.

The question hasn't been answered, and will never be answered. Not until there is peer reviewed research on this matter that has been published.

 

[Gurby]

I meant observational obviously

My bad... Was picturing kids being raised by robots in isolation in a lab somewhere... Sounds like a bad sci-fi movie.

 

[efle]

Welp. So much for the get out of jail free card.

Your comment is exactly the reason why i object to the notion of innate intelligence. I am aware of everyone not being born exactly the same, but to dismiss people for being incapable of accomplishing a simple task just because of genetics is unnecessarily harsh and excluding.

But really, i'm out of jail now so try to avoid pushing me back in with unwarranted comments reprimanding people and punishing my optimism for being too sheltered. I am well too familiar with how the real world works, but i'm not the type of guy to abandon hope with "well-below-average brains" simply because of their genetics.

Acknowledging that people have varying capabilities does not imply you must write anyone off or prejudge anyone. You've got quite the false dichotomy going of data-defying equality vs abandoning hopes for people.

 

[Dr.Sticks]

wonder if there's a study that equalizes environmental influences

I think the bigger matter is cultural influences..
Why do Indian kids from poorer economic backgrounds, many who might live in slums and have no running water, and their only bathroom is the street do better in school than U.S kids?

My bad... Was picturing kids being raised by robots in isolation in a lab somewhere... Sounds like a bad sci-fi movie.

Raising a child is like building a lego.. At least how I see it
You have to culture them to be fit for high society, groom them to be the best, get them every opportunity available..
OH WAIT
Most parents can't do that! And so poor progress?

But wait.. How do poor kids in India do better?

 

[Glazedonutlove]

I think the bigger matter is cultural influences..
Why do Indian kids from poorer economic backgrounds, many who might live in slums and have no running water, and their only bathroom is the street do better in school than U.S kids?

That would fall under environmental influences...of course that's one factor

 

[ZedsDed]

The question hasn't been answered, and will never be answered. Not until there is peer reviewed research on this matter that has been published.

Can't tell if serious. There is quite a bit of data out there. Here is one I have from the other day.
Search
Genome-wide association studies establish that human intelligence is highly heritable and polygenic

 

[efle]

Yes, yes I know. But to say that one's mind is a "ghost in the machine" is preposterous. There is nothing magical about the brain.

Fun fact, the phrase "ghost in the machine" was itself written as a harsh criticism of Descartes ideas as preposterous. Most people think it was a phrase put forth by the duelists!

 

[Dr.Sticks]

Can't tell if serious. There is quite a bit of data out there. Here is one I have from the other day.
Search
Genome-wide association studies establish that human intelligence is highly heritable and polygenic

So? Environmental factors haven't been ruled out.

 

[ZedsDed]

Fun fact, the phrase "ghost in the machine" was itself written as a harsh criticism of Descartes ideas as preposterous. Most people think it was a phrase put forth by the duelists!

Cool! You should try using that line to pick up women

 

[ZedsDed]

So? Environmental factors haven't been ruled out.

No one said environmental factors play no role. You contend that environmental factors determine one's intelligence 100% of the time, and that is simply false.

 

[Dr.Sticks]

Cool! You should try using that line to pick up women

Why even try to pick up women? What is so special about making mating calls and attracting women anyways?
The whole concept of picking women up itself is very primitive.

 

[efle]

So? Environmental factors haven't been ruled out.

Every conceivable factor they could stratify data for, they did. SES etc...you may as well argue height is influenced by only environment and willpower. There is a HUGE inherent genetic component to intelligence.

 

[Dr.Sticks]

No one said environmental factors play no role. You contend that environmental factors determine one's intelligence 100% of the time, and that is simply false.

I did note exceptions.

 

[efle]

Cool! You should try using that line to pick up women

My gf would not approve

 

[ZedsDed]

Why even try to pick up women? What is so special about making mating calls and attracting women anyways?
The whole concept of picking women up itself is very primitive.

Alas, we are primitive and sexual beings. But the joke was meant to be ironic, as I am as gay as they come.

 

[Dr.Sticks]

Here is my hypothesis:
If your IQ is 100, at least 100 you can do anything.
I'd love to test it out..

 

[efle]

Here is my hypothesis:
If your IQ is 100, at least 100 you can do anything.
I'd love to test it out..

a lot is accessible to the lucky and hardworking Everyman...but not everything

 

[efle]

Why even try to pick up women? What is so special about making mating calls and attracting women anyways?
The whole concept of picking women up itself is very primitive.

Well for the sex, duh

 

[Dr.Sticks]

a lot is accessible to the lucky and hardworking Everyman...but not everything

Perhaps; In middle school the principal told the class that he worked his rear end off and got a C..
I was shocked! How do you work your rear end off and get a C???

Well for the sex, duh

I don't believe in casual coitus anyways... Minimum 2 years serious relationship requirements.

 

[ZedsDed]

I don't believe in casual coitus anyways... Minimum 2 years serious relationship requirements.

Are you religious? I'm not trying to pick on you, I'm genuinely curious. Your theological views may be informing your philosophical views here.

 

[efle]

Perhaps; In middle school the principal told the class that he worked his rear end off and got a C..
I was shocked! How do you work your rear end off and get a C???

I don't believe in casual coitus anyways... Minimum 2 years serious relationship requirements.

Because effort does not make for understanding for all people

Well calling it coitus is a good way to prevent casual sex

 

[ZedsDed]

Well calling it coitus is a good way to prevent casual sex

 

[Glazedonutlove]

Are you religious? I'm not trying to pick on you, I'm genuinely curious. Your theological views may be informing your philosophical views here.

cultuer

 

[Dr.Sticks]

Are you religious? I'm not trying to pick on you, I'm genuinely curious. Your theological views may be informing your philosophical views here.

Do I subscribe to any religious ideas, such as Christianity, Hinduism, Islam, etc?
Not really.. I am independent in my thoughts..
Arguably a fanatic who holds romanticized visions of a grand view of the past..
Reality is many died of diphtheria, whooping cough, etc.. Infant mortality was high.. People died of common stuff.. Many sometimes starved..
*yes I know*

 

[ZedsDed]

cultuer

?

 

[Meeehai]

Why even try to pick up women? What is so special about making mating calls and attracting women anyways?
The whole concept of picking women up itself is very primitive.

 

[efle]

Do I subscribe to any religious ideas, such as Christianity, Hinduism, Islam, etc?
Not really.. I am independent in my thoughts..
Arguably a fanatic who holds romanticized visions of a grand view of the past..
Reality is many died of diphtheria, whooping cough, etc.. Infant mortality was high.. People died of common stuff.. Many sometimes starved..
*yes I know*

What is appealing about the past then

 

[Dr.Sticks]

What is appealing about the past then

The conservative life, the minimalism, the brave life lived out on a homestead

 

[efle]

So your ideal life is hunter gatherer caveman then ? Doesn't get any more minimal and dangerous than that

 

[Glazedonutlove]

?

culture

 

[Dr.Sticks]

So your ideal life is hunter gatherer caveman then ? Doesn't get any more minimal and dangerous than that

No..
I would love to live on a homestead, in the mountains, off the land, off the grid.. Like it's the 1800s.. During the wild west days, and homesteading..

I still wish they did the 40 acres and a mule thing!

 

[efle]

No..
I would love to live on a homestead, in the mountains, off the land, off the grid.. Like it's the 1800s.. During the wild west days, and homesteading..

I still wish they did the 40 acres and a mule thing!

You can get 40 acres and a mule in the middle of nowhere for super ****ing cheap dude. What is stopping you from going and having this off the grid fantasy?

 

[Dr.Sticks]

You can get 40 acres and a mule in the middle of nowhere for super ****ing cheap dude. What is stopping you from going and having this off the grid fantasy?

I want to be a doctor.. lol
That's far more important to me..

 

[Glazedonutlove]

What is appealing about the past then

why do u bother

 

[efle]

You gonna be a rural doc? That's a very in-demand option

 

[efle]

why do u bother

****s n giggles I guess

 

[Glazedonutlove]

You gonna be a rural doc? That's a very in-demand option

he wants to be academic surgeon remmber

 

[efle]

There are some heavily academic and pretty rural centers like Dartmouth

 

[Gurby]

Here is my hypothesis:
If your IQ is 100, at least 100 you can do anything.
I'd love to test it out..

A major symphony orchestra had an opening for 1 position recently. Over 1000 people, many of them already playing in other professional groups, sent in audition tapes. From the tapes, about 100 were invited to come audition in person. The committee narrowed it down to 5 finalists. They gave each finalist a trial with the orchestra, playing some pieces with the rest of the section they would be in. Then they decided that none of the finalists was exactly what they were looking for. They didn't hire anyone, and planned to fill the spot with a long-term sub for the year and hold another audition the following year.

I guess everyone who auditioned just didn't want it badly enough.

 

[Dr.Sticks]

A major symphony orchestra had an opening for 1 position recently. Over 1000 people, many of them already playing in other professional groups, sent in audition tapes. From the tapes, about 100 were invited to come audition in person. The committee narrowed it down to 5 finalists. They gave each finalist a trial with the orchestra, playing some pieces with the rest of the section they would be in. Then they decided that none of the finalists was exactly what they were looking for. They didn't hire anyone, and planned to fill the spot with a long-term sub for the year and hold another audition the following year.

I guess everyone who auditioned just didn't want it badly enough.

What does that have to do with anything? If someone puts more than 10,000 hours into their musical career, and dedicates their entire life to music, they can become highly accomplished.
Source:The book outliers..(10,000 hours is magic number for mastery of something)

 

[efle]

Not the best example as professional musicianship is far far more about effort than intelligence...