Do you think anyone can do it?

[ZedsDed]

Everyone here seems to be assuming the only intelligence that exists is the kind that makes you good at medically-related science. There are a million forms of intelligence that may or may not lend to success as a pre med/doctor

I agree. Not to toot my own horn, but I said as much several days ago

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[efle]

And what about people who commit suicide because they can't handle pressures of college? Or in this ridiculous hypothetical are we assuming that people are fully medicated/undergoing incredibly efficacious therapy?

The ridiculous claim here is that the poor kids are killing themselves because college requires too much effort and they'd rather die than stop being lazy. Like really bro think through that analogy. More often they're depressed because in spite of hard work they aren't making the As their entire identity and all the parental expectation was built on, not because they suddenly can't handle nightly readings

 

[chocoholicsoxfan]

The ridiculous claim here is that the poor kids are killing themselves because college requires too much effort and they'd rather die than stop being lazy. Like really bro think through that analogy. More often they're depressed because in spite of hard work they aren't making the As their entire identity and all the parental expectation was built on, not because they suddenly can't handle nightly readings

Right, but if fundamentally your question is "can they do it?" the answer would still be no. That's not to say they're weaker or inferior people or anything, but the pressure being put on them is a part of their environment and who they are. Now, if you're saying "take away those expectations from parents/self and then see if they could do it," then they're not really the same person, are they? So it seems moot to me.

Then again, I'm a determinist, so maybe my perspective is a bit different.

 

[goldy490]

This thread is stupid

...And hence would not be able to succeed as a pre-med

 

[ZedsDed]

Why does a brilliant artist clearly have intelligence? They clearly have talent, but that's not the same thing.
Not all talent = intelligence.

On the other hand, just because they may not be intelligent, doesn't make them stupid.
Intelligence is not a black and white, 'you are either smart or stupid' scenario...it's a spectrum.

Edit: For the record, I also don't think that either physiology or biochem really requires much in the way of innate intelligence.

You are using the colloquial definition of "intelligence." Scientists regularly throw around terms like "tactile intelligence." Regardless, there are certainly aspects of "talent" that are innate.

 

[mimelim]

Unlike my other posts on this forum, I'm just going to just start rambling my thoughts on the issue (ie make it up as I go along) and completely reserve the right to reverse any opinions I may espouse here:

Every year 4 million children are born in the United States. Just ballparking it, using gorilla math (remember that 'make it up as I go along' bit?) I'd estimate that ~95% have the innate ability to become a physician in the US. What it takes to get said baby to medical school depends on that individual of course. There are some (~1%) that no matter what position you put them in, whether it be middle-class suburbia, upper class hamptons or inner-city ghetto, they are going to rise to the top because of who they are. They are born with the innate intelligence that simply carries them. The other 94% if put in the right circumstances could go to medical school, if they wanted. In the extremes, single-parent household, no family graduating high school, living in the inner-city, very few of that 94% could make it. Best childhood/development possible... ie. good support, but not too much, ample resources, but not spoiled, intact family etc? Ya, I really think that 95% could make it to medical school.

But, life gets in the way. These are my core:

#1 Communication skills
#2 Knowledge
#3 Drive
#4 Kindness

You need to have competency in all 3 of those. Everyone has to learn them from day 1 of pre-school on. Some people are better learners than others, but with ample experiences, I think that 95% of people can do it. Communication skills: This is everything, from how to troubleshoot things to how to call a consult to how to work in a team etc. Superior communicators do better professionally. Verbal skills on the MCAT? It matters. No, having the best vocabulary doesn't, but reading comprehension? Attention to details? Being able to organize your thoughts? Incredibly important. But, this isn't about MCAT prep, you don't improve your reading comprehension or your communication skills by studying for the MCAT. It starts with reading, writing, getting feedback and improving. Starts in elementary school and builds from there. Your environment is huge. I tell high school students that want to go to medical school that if you want to improve your chances of getting in the most, start reading. I don't care if it's fiction, biographies, the economist, whatever. Being able to read and write well is invaluable.

Knowledge: The amount of knowledge that you need to be a practicing physician is actually relatively small (in terms of years committed). The vast majority of what you use on a day to day basis was learned in medical school and beyond, NOT the preceding 17 YEARS of education. Everything before medical school is about being able to gain knowledge and proving that once you reach medical training you are going to be able to absorb it and use it. Medical school and residency are long and hard, if you don't have the ability to survive it, there is no point in going. Up for discussion, but most people think that OChem and Physics are the hardest pre-med classes. I honestly believe with adequate preparation and support, almost anyone can do well in those classes. Maybe not get an 'A', but certainly well enough for medical school. But, it starts from elementary school. How many pre-meds struggle with mathematics? How many cower at the concept of using calculus? The most poignant example for me was my medical school biostats class, where a large (5+) number of students complained because they were expected to divide 459 by 3 with a pencil and paper on their exam. They claimed that they should get calculators because in the 'real world' they would always have one. Well, how hard is Physics if you struggle with long division? I don't think that any of them are innately unable to do long division. But, they certainly in 13 years of kindergarden, elementary, middle, and high school education never actually got comfortable with dividing a three digit number by a one digit number. You can apply this to hundreds, if not thousands of other examples of basic education that is lost on many students, some because of lack of resources/teachers (inner cities) more commonly in the pre-med crowd, being spoiled/babied through their schooling and not maximizing on their education.

Drive: Some of this is innate, but a lot of it is part of how you were raised and what was going on around you. If you aren't hungry, you don't chase after more. Medicine is a long road and a lot of it is thankless, even after you get out of residency. If you don't have the personal need to push yourself, you are going to have a rough time.

Kindness: In the words of my mentor, "You have to give a ****." Medicine is unique in that virtually every job you could do after training is geared around helping other people. Yes, some are more superficial than others, but the lion's share revolve around seeing people on either the worst day of their life (or close to it) or keeping people from having the worst day of their life. Other jobs can claim this to a certain extent, but it is no where as universal. If that doesn't get you revved up and going, consider doing something else. I'm not saying don't apply to medical school. I'm saying that this is the big perk that we get and if it isn't a major motivator, there have to be a lot of other good reasons for going down this road. Like the others, sure, some people are born psychopaths, but everyone else is a product of their environment. How they were treated, how they were raised. Their valuing of human dignity and life, etc. It isn't something you learn in a classroom. It is something you learn from your parents, siblings, teachers and other mentors.


tldr: [ramble off]

 

[ZedsDed]

Unlike my other posts on this forum, I'm just going to just start rambling my thoughts on the issue (ie make it up as I go along) and completely reserve the right to reverse any opinions I may espouse here:

Every year 4 million children are born in the United States. Just ballparking it, using gorilla math (remember that 'make it up as I go along' bit?) I'd estimate that ~95% have the innate ability to become a physician in the US. What it takes to get said baby to medical school depends on that individual of course. There are some (~1%) that no matter what position you put them in, whether it be middle-class suburbia, upper class hamptons or inner-city ghetto, they are going to rise to the top because of who they are. They are born with the innate intelligence that simply carries them. The other 94% if put in the right circumstances could go to medical school, if they wanted. In the extremes, single-parent household, no family graduating high school, living in the inner-city, very few of that 94% could make it. Best childhood/development possible... ie. good support, but not too much, ample resources, but not spoiled, intact family etc? Ya, I really think that 95% could make it to medical school.

But, life gets in the way. These are my core:

#1 Communication skills
#2 Knowledge
#3 Drive
#4 Kindness

You need to have competency in all 3 of those. Everyone has to learn them from day 1 of pre-school on. Some people are better learners than others, but with ample experiences, I think that 95% of people can do it. Communication skills: This is everything, from how to troubleshoot things to how to call a consult to how to work in a team etc. Superior communicators do better professionally. Verbal skills on the MCAT? It matters. No, having the best vocabulary doesn't, but reading comprehension? Attention to details? Being able to organize your thoughts? Incredibly important. But, this isn't about MCAT prep, you don't improve your reading comprehension or your communication skills by studying for the MCAT. It starts with reading, writing, getting feedback and improving. Starts in elementary school and builds from there. Your environment is huge. I tell high school students that want to go to medical school that if you want to improve your chances of getting in the most, start reading. I don't care if it's fiction, biographies, the economist, whatever. Being able to read and write well is invaluable.

Knowledge: The amount of knowledge that you need to be a practicing physician is actually relatively small (in terms of years committed). The vast majority of what you use on a day to day basis was learned in medical school and beyond, NOT the preceding 17 YEARS of education. Everything before medical school is about being able to gain knowledge and proving that once you reach medical training you are going to be able to absorb it and use it. Medical school and residency are long and hard, if you don't have the ability to survive it, there is no point in going. Up for discussion, but most people think that OChem and Physics are the hardest pre-med classes. I honestly believe with adequate preparation and support, almost anyone can do well in those classes. Maybe not get an 'A', but certainly well enough for medical school. But, it starts from elementary school. How many pre-meds struggle with mathematics? How many cower at the concept of using calculus? The most poignant example for me was my medical school biostats class, where a large (5+) number of students complained because they were expected to divide 459 by 3 with a pencil and paper on their exam. They claimed that they should get calculators because in the 'real world' they would always have one. Well, how hard is Physics if you struggle with long division? I don't think that any of them are innately unable to do long division. But, they certainly in 13 years of kindergarden, elementary, middle, and high school education never actually got comfortable with dividing a three digit number by a one digit number. You can apply this to hundreds, if not thousands of other examples of basic education that is lost on many students, some because of lack of resources/teachers (inner cities) more commonly in the pre-med crowd, being spoiled/babied through their schooling and not maximizing on their education.

Drive: Some of this is innate, but a lot of it is part of how you were raised and what was going on around you. If you aren't hungry, you don't chase after more. Medicine is a long road and a lot of it is thankless, even after you get out of residency. If you don't have the personal need to push yourself, you are going to have a rough time.

Kindness: In the words of my mentor, "You have to give a ****." Medicine is unique in that virtually every job you could do after training is geared around helping other people. Yes, some are more superficial than others, but the lion's share revolve around seeing people on either the worst day of their life (or close to it) or keeping people from having the worst day of their life. Other jobs can claim this to a certain extent, but it is no where as universal. If that doesn't get you revved up and going, consider doing something else. I'm not saying don't apply to medical school. I'm saying that this is the big perk that we get and if it isn't a major motivator, there have to be a lot of other good reasons for going down this road. Like the others, sure, some people are born psychopaths, but everyone else is a product of their environment. How they were treated, how they were raised. Their valuing of human dignity and life, etc. It isn't something you learn in a classroom. It is something you learn from your parents, siblings, teachers and other mentors.


tldr: [ramble off]

May I respectfully ask if you were raised in the upper middle class?

 

[efle]

Unlike my other posts on this forum, I'm just going to just start rambling my thoughts on the issue (ie make it up as I go along) and completely reserve the right to reverse any opinions I may espouse here:

Every year 4 million children are born in the United States. Just ballparking it, using gorilla math (remember that 'make it up as I go along' bit?) I'd estimate that ~95% have the innate ability to become a physician in the US. What it takes to get said baby to medical school depends on that individual of course. There are some (~1%) that no matter what position you put them in, whether it be middle-class suburbia, upper class hamptons or inner-city ghetto, they are going to rise to the top because of who they are. They are born with the innate intelligence that simply carries them. The other 94% if put in the right circumstances could go to medical school, if they wanted. In the extremes, single-parent household, no family graduating high school, living in the inner-city, very few of that 94% could make it. Best childhood/development possible... ie. good support, but not too much, ample resources, but not spoiled, intact family etc? Ya, I really think that 95% could make it to medical school.

But, life gets in the way. These are my core:

#1 Communication skills
#2 Knowledge
#3 Drive
#4 Kindness

You need to have competency in all 3 of those. Everyone has to learn them from day 1 of pre-school on. Some people are better learners than others, but with ample experiences, I think that 95% of people can do it. Communication skills: This is everything, from how to troubleshoot things to how to call a consult to how to work in a team etc. Superior communicators do better professionally. Verbal skills on the MCAT? It matters. No, having the best vocabulary doesn't, but reading comprehension? Attention to details? Being able to organize your thoughts? Incredibly important. But, this isn't about MCAT prep, you don't improve your reading comprehension or your communication skills by studying for the MCAT. It starts with reading, writing, getting feedback and improving. Starts in elementary school and builds from there. Your environment is huge. I tell high school students that want to go to medical school that if you want to improve your chances of getting in the most, start reading. I don't care if it's fiction, biographies, the economist, whatever. Being able to read and write well is invaluable.

Knowledge: The amount of knowledge that you need to be a practicing physician is actually relatively small (in terms of years committed). The vast majority of what you use on a day to day basis was learned in medical school and beyond, NOT the preceding 17 YEARS of education. Everything before medical school is about being able to gain knowledge and proving that once you reach medical training you are going to be able to absorb it and use it. Medical school and residency are long and hard, if you don't have the ability to survive it, there is no point in going. Up for discussion, but most people think that OChem and Physics are the hardest pre-med classes. I honestly believe with adequate preparation and support, almost anyone can do well in those classes. Maybe not get an 'A', but certainly well enough for medical school. But, it starts from elementary school. How many pre-meds struggle with mathematics? How many cower at the concept of using calculus? The most poignant example for me was my medical school biostats class, where a large (5+) number of students complained because they were expected to divide 459 by 3 with a pencil and paper on their exam. They claimed that they should get calculators because in the 'real world' they would always have one. Well, how hard is Physics if you struggle with long division? I don't think that any of them are innately unable to do long division. But, they certainly in 13 years of kindergarden, elementary, middle, and high school education never actually got comfortable with dividing a three digit number by a one digit number. You can apply this to hundreds, if not thousands of other examples of basic education that is lost on many students, some because of lack of resources/teachers (inner cities) more commonly in the pre-med crowd, being spoiled/babied through their schooling and not maximizing on their education.

Drive: Some of this is innate, but a lot of it is part of how you were raised and what was going on around you. If you aren't hungry, you don't chase after more. Medicine is a long road and a lot of it is thankless, even after you get out of residency. If you don't have the personal need to push yourself, you are going to have a rough time.

Kindness: In the words of my mentor, "You have to give a ****." Medicine is unique in that virtually every job you could do after training is geared around helping other people. Yes, some are more superficial than others, but the lion's share revolve around seeing people on either the worst day of their life (or close to it) or keeping people from having the worst day of their life. Other jobs can claim this to a certain extent, but it is no where as universal. If that doesn't get you revved up and going, consider doing something else. I'm not saying don't apply to medical school. I'm saying that this is the big perk that we get and if it isn't a major motivator, there have to be a lot of other good reasons for going down this road. Like the others, sure, some people are born psychopaths, but everyone else is a product of their environment. How they were treated, how they were raised. Their valuing of human dignity and life, etc. It isn't something you learn in a classroom. It is something you learn from your parents, siblings, teachers and other mentors.


tldr: [ramble off]

the 5th percentile for IQ is 73-74, you really think the only people who don't have the brains for the process are those that qualify as mentally disabled? A lot more than 1/20 even in very good areas struggle (as in put in effort and still cant get it) with high school math, I have a hard time seeing them make A- in university science classes and score 60+% correct on the MCAT

Love the optimism though. Having lived your adult life with an off the charts brain and surrounded by other brilliant people probably makes it easy to overestimate !

 

[chocoholicsoxfan]

In Outliers, Gladwell says the minimum IQ necessary for college success is 120, though I have no idea where he gets that number from. Anything after that is like adding height to an NBA player. Any thoughts?

 

[efle]

In Outliers, Gladwell says the minimum IQ necessary for college success is 120, though I have no idea where he gets that number from. Anything after that is like adding height to an NBA player. Any thoughts?

He is a journalist not a scientist. He says bull**** all the time. His book Blink is another good example, its far from agreed upon by cognitive psych and neuro experts.

 

[Mad Jack]

There are people who will never be capable of grasping and understanding certain complex subjects, no matter how hard they work at it. Now that is not to say these people are dumb. A brilliant artist clearly has intelligence, but not the kind necessary to master complex physiology or biochemistry. So to answer the question, could anyone do it (if they work hard enough)? No. But that does not make them stupid.

Everyone here seems to be assuming the only intelligence that exists is the kind that makes you good at medically-related science. There are a million forms of intelligence that may or may not lend to success as a pre med/doctor

I don't think anyone is implying that scientifically minded intelligence is the only intelligence, we're just not getting nuanced with things because this is a topic about general intelligence as it relates to the MCAT, not specific intelligences as they relate to life.

 

[mimelim]

May I respectfully ask if you were raised in the upper middle class?

I'd say more 'upper' than 'middle'.

the 5th percentile for IQ is 73-74, you really think the only people who don't have the brains for the process are those that qualify as mentally disabled? A lot more than 1/20 even in very good areas struggle (as in put in effort and still cant get it) with high school math, I have a hard time seeing them make A- in university science classes and score 60+% correct on the MCAT

Love the optimism though. Having lived your adult life with an off the charts brain and surrounded by other brilliant people probably makes it easy to overestimate !

Yes. Absolutely. The more time I spend working with inner city populations and volunteering in poorer school districts, the more obvious that the 'lower' IQs (ie. 70-80s) are more a product of a decade plus of poor environment. The difference between someone who is actually mentality disabled with an IQ of 75 vs. someone who simply had a terrible environment is quite significant. I took for granted for many years how much my background shaped me into what I have become. I still have an ego and would like to think that I have innate qualities that would put me in the top of that 95%, but I'm not entirely sure.

Struggling with high school math is because they struggled with middle school math and before that with arithmetic. How many had optimized/good teaching? I'd say very few. Do many/most rise above it and still learn the material, yes. But, that doesn't mean that with better education/circumstance people could do better.

 

[Gandyy]

I think it takes a certain mix of SES and/or Life circumstances to allow a human to reach their full academic potential.

 

[mimelim]

In Outliers, Gladwell says the minimum IQ necessary for college success is 120, though I have no idea where he gets that number from. Anything after that is like adding height to an NBA player. Any thoughts?

IQ is a number, but it is just like your GPA, just one number with a whole host of inter-related variables. If we know one thing about IQs, it isn't some static number that you are born with. It is something that changes overtime and is largely influenced by socioeconomics and education.

Anectdotally, the number of <120 IQ people in undergrad/medical school is pretty high. Certainly not a majority, but if I remember correctly, the average MD IQ is 120, so half of them are under that...

 

[efle]

I'd say more 'upper' than 'middle'.



Yes. Absolutely. The more time I spend working with inner city populations and volunteering in poorer school districts, the more obvious that the 'lower' IQs (ie. 70-80s) are more a product of a decade plus of poor environment. The difference between someone who is actually mentality disabled with an IQ of 75 vs. someone who simply had a terrible environment is quite significant. I took for granted for many years how much my background shaped me into what I have become. I still have an ego and would like to think that I have innate qualities that would put me in the top of that 95%, but I'm not entirely sure.

Struggling with high school math is because they struggled with middle school math and before that with arithmetic. How many had optimized/good teaching? I'd say very few. Do many/most rise above it and still learn the material, yes. But, that doesn't mean that with better education/circumstance people could do better.

Students in a good area struggling with math = they had good teaching, most of their peers got it just fine but for them its a massive struggle. Surely you recognize that there are many middle and upper class students that perform far lower than others of their same SES...plenty of studies on this have shown terrible effects from poverty/malnutrition/etc but there is a huge variance even in middle and upper class and the majority of the variance when controlling for this is genetically explained. People are born with different potentials, and many even that are raised well cant do physics or ochem or tough reading comp

 

[Glazedonutlove]

Students in a good area struggling with math = they had good teaching, most of their peers got it just fine but for them its a massive struggle. Surely you recognize that there are many middle and upper class students that perform far lower than others of their same SES...plenty of studies on this have shown terrible effects from poverty/malnutrition/etc but there is a huge variance even in middle and upper class and the majority of the variance when controlling for this is genetically explained. People are born with different potentials, and many even that are raised well cant do physics or ochem or tough reading comp

But this is where the drive to work hard comes in. Some would need to work harder than others but if they have the same opportunities in terms of education and resources and good support from home, then I don't see why they wouldn't be able to get into medical school. I'm not saying anyone can become a gifted surgeon, but they would be able to get into medical school.

 

[Gandyy]

Students in a good area struggling with math = they had good teaching, most of their peers got it just fine but for them its a massive struggle. Surely you recognize that there are many middle and upper class students that perform far lower than others of their same SES...plenty of studies on this have shown terrible effects from poverty/malnutrition/etc but there is a huge variance even in middle and upper class and the majority of the variance when controlling for this is genetically explained. People are born with different potentials, and many even that are raised well cant do physics or ochem or tough reading comp

You are a very large proponent of "potential". I agree with you that genetics are all powerful, however, growth environment and quality of education children receive in their K-12 education has a huge impact on their academic potential as well. Still it is impossible to beat your DNA. Hail Guanine, Cytosine, Adenine and Thymine. Oh yea, Uracil too.

 

[mimelim]

Students in a good area struggling with math = they had good teaching, most of their peers got it just fine but for them its a massive struggle. Surely you recognize that there are many middle and upper class students that perform far lower than others of their same SES...plenty of studies on this have shown terrible effects from poverty/malnutrition/etc but there is a huge variance even in middle and upper class and the majority of the variance when controlling for this is genetically explained. People are born with different potentials, and many even that are raised well cant do physics or ochem or tough reading comp

Good area is not the same as good education or good teaching. My brother teaches high school in an extremely affluent area (Think upper upper class) and so much is very very obvious.

And yes, there is a huge variation among those in the same SES. But, my point is that their 'intelligence' is artificially elevated if you use IQs. You would have a hard time finding an IQ measured less than 100 at my high school and impossible to find one below 90. THAT is a product of the education and the baseline trajectory of the people that attended a small, relatively affluent private high school.

But, that is only one variable. Parents and home life are HUGE. While everyone had the same 'education' in my class of 100 in high school, I would argue that parents/home life was a bigger determinant than genetics. Those that went on to professional school or are running their own companies etc. are disproportionately from two parent households where education was a priority from elementary school on up.

 

[mimelim]

Students in a good area struggling with math = they had good teaching, most of their peers got it just fine but for them its a massive struggle. Surely you recognize that there are many middle and upper class students that perform far lower than others of their same SES...plenty of studies on this have shown terrible effects from poverty/malnutrition/etc but there is a huge variance even in middle and upper class and the majority of the variance when controlling for this is genetically explained. People are born with different potentials, and many even that are raised well cant do physics or ochem or tough reading comp

I'm not saying that genetics doesn't play a role. In the extremes (mentally disabled on one end and geniuses on the other) it is huge. But, outside of that? For the other 95% of the population? Spending a lot more time with the disadvantaged population has shown me that compounding progression from age 3 to 18.

 

[solitarius]

Hate to say it, but not everyone can do it. In fact, most people cannot do it.

The information overload is just too much for most people to handle, and they unfortunately don't appreciate that pre-med mercifully filters them out.

 

[Goro]

Colleague, you're making that up!!!



The most poignant example for me was my medical school biostats class, where a large (5+) number of students complained because they were expected to divide 459 by 3 with a pencil and paper on their exam. They claimed that they should get calculators because in the 'real world' they would always have one.

 

[mimelim]

As an adendum to my original post @efle I don't think that people should get an 'excuse' for being from a disadvantaged background. For example, if you aren't a good student and clearly at risk for failing medical school, you should not be let in because you had a terrible home situation and education. As a modifier, absolutely needs to be considered, but bad applicants are still bad applicants. For me personally, it has increased my interest in improving primary education across the board and improving access to resources for children in bad positions.

*shrug* can't possibly claim to be an expert on this and my opinion has shifted considerably from high school to now. I'm sure you could find some old posts from me arguing the opposite.

@Goro I don't think I can make something like that up... I'm just not that creative. It was astounding to me at the time.

 

[Gurby]

In Outliers, Gladwell says the minimum IQ necessary for college success is 120, though I have no idea where he gets that number from. Anything after that is like adding height to an NBA player. Any thoughts?

I'm not going to go look through it to find the text, but I think this is a misquote. I think he said that minimum IQ necessary to do extraordinary things (win a Nobel Prize, etc) was around 120. Or maybe that was the average for Nobel laureates or something, I don't remember. In any case I'm pretty sure his point was that you don't need to be a genius - all you need is a somewhat above average innate intelligence and after that it mainly comes down to other factors (upbringing, drive, luck, etc).

 

[mehc012]

You are using the colloquial definition of "intelligence." Scientists regularly throw around terms like "tactile intelligence." Regardless, there are certainly aspects of "talent" that are innate.

We've already got a word that encompasses all of those other 'kinds of intelligence': talent.
Why on earth would I combine the two and make things more confusing?

 

[Afp0731]

To an extent, I believe the most intelligent people are the most intellectually fluid and this is largely learned rather than genetic. The people who exceed with larger and larger challenges realize they cannot keep working one-dimensionally. What works in one class and with one professor does not always translate to the next. Considering the motivation is there, these people focus on adapting and will do their research before getting to work so that they understand the most effective route. Meanwhile, plenty of equally capable folks stand beside and begin to fall back because they don't understand this. Ultimately, I think preparation, personal responsibility, motivation, hard work, and a focus on common sense constitute the vast majority of a person's capability to go through with medical school. Some people do this very naturally and some people do the exact opposite but when it comes down to it, I believe most people have the same ability present. Of course, there are a few people out there who just have insanely developed brains. Even for those folks, those qualities may have been produced through the manner of development they were exposed to. Research shows that kids who read a lot during development have more success in standardized tests than those who do not. There have also been links between advanced math ability and learning to play musical instruments in childhood. Interesting stuff.

 

[Chocolatepumpkinpie]

Well, environment>genetics, so I believe most people can if they wanted to, if people started working on it since they are young. Growing up in an educated family is definitely helpful, as they can provide you excellent training (how to study), planning (parents have gone through similar path), knowledge through "osmosis," (daily conversations) and contacts (professional connections). However, I can't stress enough that educated background doesn't always mean financial wealth! I grew up in a fairly affluent and highly educated neighborhood, though I myself do not come from $$. My classmates worked crazy hard. Most classmates who pursued medicine straight out of undergrad came from educated upper-middle class (200K+?); of course some took gap years due to poor planning and other reasons, but I've yet to see someone failing. Those who could afford to literally party for the rest of their lives typically pursued careers that guaranteed no financial stability or success (though I'm happy to announce that many are very successful! ) At the same time, I agree that people should not use disadvantaged background (in the U.S. or Canada) as an excuse for lower scores.

 

[Goro]

@Goro I don't think I can make something like that up... I'm just not that creative. It was astounding to me at the time.[/QUOTE]

 

[ZedsDed]

We've already got a word that encompasses all of those other 'kinds of intelligence': talent.
Why on earth would I combine the two and make things more confusing?

If you want to roll with that you can. The point is much of "talent" is innate.

 

[Nietzschelover]

Interesting thread.

Occasionally (understatement) SDN seems bipolar. We read every day how difficult it is to get in med school, how almost 60% of applicants don't make it, and how the medians and EC expectations just continue to climb. And then @mimilem chimes in and posits that 95% of the population could, under the right conditions, get to med school. I agree with the sentiment but not the percentages. I am sure that there are tons of people (in raw numbers but not on a percentage basis) just from disadvantaged backgrounds who could get to med school if reached early enough and supplied with the right education, supports, etc. But I don't think it is the case that even 95% of advantaged folks could get to med school. There are different types of intelligence and talent. No amount of training is going to make someone who can't sing become a good singer. And there are some who have the talent for great psychological insight who can't do geometry. Some have great difficulty thinking and seeing spatially. For others that is a snap. Then there are some who are brilliant mathematically might never be able to pick up social cues. Some kids who are very smart just can't get things like calculus and have to take it in summer school to fulfill a requirement because they just can't cut it at the prestigious institution. In sum, I would agree that there are plenty of people out there who could get to med school who don't, but I also think there are many we might think could do it who can't. Aside from the estimate of 5% having some real intellectual impairment, which seems like a very low estimate, there any number of other issues that can happen which rule someone out....certain kinds of anxiety, other mental health issues rising all the way to major mental illnesses, physical challenges and disabilities, etc, etc.

 

[ZedsDed]

Unlike my other posts on this forum, I'm just going to just start rambling my thoughts on the issue (ie make it up as I go along) and completely reserve the right to reverse any opinions I may espouse here:

Every year 4 million children are born in the United States. Just ballparking it, using gorilla math (remember that 'make it up as I go along' bit?) I'd estimate that ~95% have the innate ability to become a physician in the US. What it takes to get said baby to medical school depends on that individual of course. There are some (~1%) that no matter what position you put them in, whether it be middle-class suburbia, upper class hamptons or inner-city ghetto, they are going to rise to the top because of who they are. They are born with the innate intelligence that simply carries them. The other 94% if put in the right circumstances could go to medical school, if they wanted. In the extremes, single-parent household, no family graduating high school, living in the inner-city, very few of that 94% could make it. Best childhood/development possible... ie. good support, but not too much, ample resources, but not spoiled, intact family etc? Ya, I really think that 95% could make it to medical school.

But, life gets in the way. These are my core:

#1 Communication skills
#2 Knowledge
#3 Drive
#4 Kindness

You need to have competency in all 3 of those. Everyone has to learn them from day 1 of pre-school on. Some people are better learners than others, but with ample experiences, I think that 95% of people can do it. Communication skills: This is everything, from how to troubleshoot things to how to call a consult to how to work in a team etc. Superior communicators do better professionally. Verbal skills on the MCAT? It matters. No, having the best vocabulary doesn't, but reading comprehension? Attention to details? Being able to organize your thoughts? Incredibly important. But, this isn't about MCAT prep, you don't improve your reading comprehension or your communication skills by studying for the MCAT. It starts with reading, writing, getting feedback and improving. Starts in elementary school and builds from there. Your environment is huge. I tell high school students that want to go to medical school that if you want to improve your chances of getting in the most, start reading. I don't care if it's fiction, biographies, the economist, whatever. Being able to read and write well is invaluable.

Knowledge: The amount of knowledge that you need to be a practicing physician is actually relatively small (in terms of years committed). The vast majority of what you use on a day to day basis was learned in medical school and beyond, NOT the preceding 17 YEARS of education. Everything before medical school is about being able to gain knowledge and proving that once you reach medical training you are going to be able to absorb it and use it. Medical school and residency are long and hard, if you don't have the ability to survive it, there is no point in going. Up for discussion, but most people think that OChem and Physics are the hardest pre-med classes. I honestly believe with adequate preparation and support, almost anyone can do well in those classes. Maybe not get an 'A', but certainly well enough for medical school. But, it starts from elementary school. How many pre-meds struggle with mathematics? How many cower at the concept of using calculus? The most poignant example for me was my medical school biostats class, where a large (5+) number of students complained because they were expected to divide 459 by 3 with a pencil and paper on their exam. They claimed that they should get calculators because in the 'real world' they would always have one. Well, how hard is Physics if you struggle with long division? I don't think that any of them are innately unable to do long division. But, they certainly in 13 years of kindergarden, elementary, middle, and high school education never actually got comfortable with dividing a three digit number by a one digit number. You can apply this to hundreds, if not thousands of other examples of basic education that is lost on many students, some because of lack of resources/teachers (inner cities) more commonly in the pre-med crowd, being spoiled/babied through their schooling and not maximizing on their education.

Drive: Some of this is innate, but a lot of it is part of how you were raised and what was going on around you. If you aren't hungry, you don't chase after more. Medicine is a long road and a lot of it is thankless, even after you get out of residency. If you don't have the personal need to push yourself, you are going to have a rough time.

Kindness: In the words of my mentor, "You have to give a ****." Medicine is unique in that virtually every job you could do after training is geared around helping other people. Yes, some are more superficial than others, but the lion's share revolve around seeing people on either the worst day of their life (or close to it) or keeping people from having the worst day of their life. Other jobs can claim this to a certain extent, but it is no where as universal. If that doesn't get you revved up and going, consider doing something else. I'm not saying don't apply to medical school. I'm saying that this is the big perk that we get and if it isn't a major motivator, there have to be a lot of other good reasons for going down this road. Like the others, sure, some people are born psychopaths, but everyone else is a product of their environment. How they were treated, how they were raised. Their valuing of human dignity and life, etc. It isn't something you learn in a classroom. It is something you learn from your parents, siblings, teachers and other mentors.


tldr: [ramble off]

At the risk of sounding like an insufferable sycophant, I respect your experience too much to disagree with your opinion.

 

[ZedsDed]

And yes, there is a huge variation among those in the same SES. But, my point is that their 'intelligence' is artificially elevated if you use IQs. You would have a hard time finding an IQ measured less than 100 at my high school and impossible to find one below 90. THAT is a product of the education and the baseline trajectory of the people that attended a small, relatively affluent private high school.

IQ is very resistant to improvement though. We can share anecdotes about exceptions, but the data shows that IQ is a better predictor of success than SES, sexuality, race, gender, etc, etc. Even more interestingly, if you take those with higher IQs (NOT genius level) from the lower class and place them in >middle class environment, they tend to perform basically as expected given their IQ level if they had grown up in a privileged background. I fully understand why people are turned off by the idea that some people (not just those with extreme cognitive deficiencies) are unable, regardless of training, to be successful. It turned me off for a long time as well.
Also, since you were raised in the upper class, it's entirely possible that your elite high school generally consisted of the offspring of intelligent and successful individuals. If it matters, I was raised in extreme poverty.
Edit: Just to clarify, I absolutely think quality of education is important to maximize one's potential.

 

[ZedsDed]

Interesting thread.

Occasionally (understatement) SDN seems bipolar. We read every day how difficult it is to get in med school, how almost 60% of applicants don't make it, and how the medians and EC expectations just continue to climb. And then @mimilem chimes in and posits that 95% of the population could, under the right conditions, get to med school. I agree with the sentiment but not the percentages. I am sure that there are tons of people (in raw numbers but not on a percentage basis) just from disadvantaged backgrounds who could get to med school if reached early enough and supplied with the right education, supports, etc. But I don't think it is the case that even 95% of advantaged folks could get to med school. There are different types of intelligence and talent. No amount of training is going to make someone who can't sing become a good singer. And there are some who have the talent for great psychological insight who can't do geometry. Some have great difficulty thinking and seeing spatially. For others that is a snap. Then there are some who are brilliant mathematically might never be able to pick up social cues. Some kids who are very smart just can't get things like calculus and have to take it in summer school to fulfill a requirement because they just can't cut it at the prestigious institution. In sum, I would agree that there are plenty of people out there who could get to med school who don't, but I also think there are many we might think could do it who can't. Aside from the estimate of 5% having some real intellectual impairment, which seems like a very low estimate, there any number of other issues that can happen which rule someone out....certain kinds of anxiety, other mental health issues rising all the way to major mental illnesses, physical challenges and disabilities, etc, etc.

People who get into med school with a >27 MCAT score and >3.4 GPA tend to do just fine in med school. I think the majority of college premeds could hit these numbers with the right training. Also, I'll reiterate that the average college student's view of the "average" person is skewed towards the right tail of the bell curve. If we were talking about 95% of premeds from mimelim's undergraduate institution, that number would probably not be that far off.

 

[Nietzschelover]

People who get into med school with a >27 MCAT score and >3.4 GPA tend to do just fine in med school. I think the majority of college premeds could hit these numbers with the right training. Also, I'll reiterate that the average college student's view of the "average" person is skewed towards the right tail of the bell curve. If we were talking about 95% of premeds from mimelim's undergraduate institution, that number would probably not be that far off.

95% of the pre-meds at mimelim's undergrad institution (presumably elite and top-tier) is a heck of a lot different than 95% of the general population. Let's start with 50% or more of most high schools populated with students on the vocational track, and not necessarily because they had a passion for a vocational track. And do you mean the majority of pre-meds that finish undergrad as pre-meds? What % of pre-meds from day one freshmen year have dropped out of pre-med by beginning of junior year?

 

[ZedsDed]

95% of the pre-meds at mimelim's undergrad institution (presumably elite and top-tier) is a heck of a lot different than 95% of the general population. Let's start with 50% or more of most high schools populated with students on the vocational track, and not necessarily because they had a passion for a vocational track. And do you mean the majority of pre-meds that finish undergrad as pre-meds? What % of pre-meds from day one freshmen year have dropped out of pre-med by beginning of junior year?

Well, let's take it in turn:

~2/3 of high schoolers go to college. ~ 1/2 of those students go to a community college for whatever reason (I don't know if cc-->uni--> med school specifically is tracked, so I'll deal with it at the end.) ~9/10 university students will graduate in 6 years. I know, they're not all premeds (and not all premeds will do well.) But let's be rediculously generous and assume that every single humanities major student is smart enough to take hard-science classes and excel in them. Let's also be generous and assume that ~4/5 of these hypothetical applicants have the smarts to succeed in med school. So that's ~24% success rate so far. To offset those who lack in intelligence but who could potentially do better in a more learning-conducive environment, let's be extremely generous and tack on 35%. To make up for cc transfers, I'm going to pull a number out of thin air and add 10%. That leaves us with ~69% success rate in the general population. I know this is sloppy as s***. Honestly I'm just too lazy to do the actual statistics here, but I think you get the point. Even if one is very, very generous, we don't approach anywhere near "everyone."

 

[mimelim]

Interesting thread.

Occasionally (understatement) SDN seems bipolar. We read every day how difficult it is to get in med school, how almost 60% of applicants don't make it, and how the medians and EC expectations just continue to climb. And then @mimilem chimes in and posits that 95% of the population could, under the right conditions, get to med school. I agree with the sentiment but not the percentages. I am sure that there are tons of people (in raw numbers but not on a percentage basis) just from disadvantaged backgrounds who could get to med school if reached early enough and supplied with the right education, supports, etc. But I don't think it is the case that even 95% of advantaged folks could get to med school. There are different types of intelligence and talent. No amount of training is going to make someone who can't sing become a good singer. And there are some who have the talent for great psychological insight who can't do geometry. Some have great difficulty thinking and seeing spatially. For others that is a snap. Then there are some who are brilliant mathematically might never be able to pick up social cues. Some kids who are very smart just can't get things like calculus and have to take it in summer school to fulfill a requirement because they just can't cut it at the prestigious institution. In sum, I would agree that there are plenty of people out there who could get to med school who don't, but I also think there are many we might think could do it who can't. Aside from the estimate of 5% having some real intellectual impairment, which seems like a very low estimate, there any number of other issues that can happen which rule someone out....certain kinds of anxiety, other mental health issues rising all the way to major mental illnesses, physical challenges and disabilities, etc, etc.

People who get into med school with a >27 MCAT score and >3.4 GPA tend to do just fine in med school. I think the majority of college premeds could hit these numbers with the right training. Also, I'll reiterate that the average college student's view of the "average" person is skewed towards the right tail of the bell curve. If we were talking about 95% of premeds from mimelim's undergraduate institution, that number would probably not be that far off.

95% of the pre-meds at mimelim's undergrad institution (presumably elite and top-tier) is a heck of a lot different than 95% of the general population. Let's start with 50% or more of most high schools populated with students on the vocational track, and not necessarily because they had a passion for a vocational track. And do you mean the majority of pre-meds that finish undergrad as pre-meds? What % of pre-meds from day one freshmen year have dropped out of pre-med by beginning of junior year?

After going through undergrad, medical school and half of a residency, to be blunt, it doesn't take a ton of 'raw' intelligence to get through that track. We had this discussion this afternoon among our residents and it was universally agreed that while long and taxing, the raw brain power to get through and attain a residency was vastly overestimated by people who haven't been through it. This isn't about being a good singer, able to appreciate calculus or being brilliant mathematically. All of those are well above the level of 'specialness' required for medical school. This is about the lowest level required to attain acceptable scores and the core competencies to become a safe and effective physician. I strongly disagree with the concept that some people who simply, "can't do geometry" or "pick up social cues". I'm in no way saying that 95% of people are able to do those things. I am simply stating that the reason that they can't is NOT primarily because of genetics.

I am not in undergrad. I certainly don't know any of you personally or your experience, but I'd wager that I have spent more time in the last 5 years interacting with the homeless and destitute than most of you through my job and volunteering. I know full well that my undergrad is no where near representative of the general population and have never claimed as such. I am basing my opinions based on interacting with a large number of interactions with students from poorer neighborhoods, a large indigent patient population, my brothers' teaching/students and volunteering.

Advantaged background doesn't mean a ton as I have explained previously. There are a tremendous number of variables outside of raw SES. Having money certainly elevates opportunities, but having absent parents, lack of mentorship, lack of true academic development from kindergarden on up can severely limit a student. And that doesn't even broach the subject of how entitlement can come into this equation.

Again, I am not saying that genetics doesn't play a role. Of course it does. But, people, particularly pre-meds, drastically overestimate how much of a direct role it plays for the vast majority of the population.

 

[SusanGMaxwell]

"Anything is possible" that's a phrase I'm sure we have all heard but is it actually true?
I feel like there is a limit to who can actually enter medical school, the person imo needs to have some sort of "natural" intelligence.
Do you think it's possible for anyone to get into medical school just by "studying hard"?
(I'm just bringing this up because my friend and I were talking and he was going on about how "stupid"people from our old school would never be able to do it etc)

"Can" is a tough word to define. Getting into med school is a combination of intelligence, talent, and luck.