Do you think that nontrads are more likely to get into medschool than undergrds?

[streampaw]

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Like seriously, non-trads have like 10+ years of experience working as nurses, CNA's, some business positions, etc. That, vs some silly undergrad who has like 2 years of hospital volunteering. It's so not fair 🙁

 

[edgerock24]

Not really. GPA/MCAT are what schools care about the most (ESPECIALLY allopathic schools). It doesn't matter if a nontrad has worked as an RN for 10 years and has saved the world; if he/she doesn't have competitive statistics then he/she will not be accepted.

 

[Ismet]

Like seriously, non-trads have like 10+ years of experience working as nurses, CNA's, some business positions, etc. That, vs some silly undergrad who has like 2 years of hospital volunteering. It's so not fair 🙁

???? Then take some years off and become a non-trad if it's so unfair. It's often harder to be a non-trad applicant, having to go back to school for pre-reqs, studying for the MCAT while working full time and/or caring for a family, harder to find research experience, giving up a stable career in order to pursue a passion....it's not like they just take the easy ride into med school because they're older. I actually think it's easier to be a trad app, either going straight in or with 1-2 gap years.

 

[darkjedi]

If GPA/MCAT are similar, the one with better experiences and ECs will win out. Non-trads generally have more and better experiences than undergrads. May not always be the case, as many non-trads can have poor academic records, or may not have done particularly interesting/fruitful things, at which point they are less attractive as applicants.

It is fair because as a ugrad, you still have the opportunity to pursue interesting passions. You are fully free to choose to do a gap year and add to your application. Additionally, competitive non-trads are a relatively small percentage of the total applicant pool.

 

[NuttyEngDude]

Most non-trads (defined as 10+ years out by your definition) have bad stats. But the ones who have good ones, whoa nellie!

 

[docelh]

Another envy thread on SDN.

Many non-trads are burdened with real life obligations that you don't face. Most will not surmount these hurdles, so... it's kind of like resenting a school for favoring URMs even though the vast majority of students are white or Asian.

Non-trads get preference for a lot of reasons like diversity, better motivation to enter medicine. But I think the biggest thing is MATURITY.

We were once immature too, but we got over it. You will too. The sooner, the better.

I enjoyed my post-bac experience, but by far, the most negative part of it was dealing with insecure kids who acted like they were still in high school. You guys have no idea how annoying you can appear to be to grown-up adults.

 

[Lollygag]

???? Then take some years off and become a non-trad if it's so unfair. It's often harder to be a non-trad applicant, having to go back to school for pre-reqs, studying for the mcat while working full time and/or caring for a family, harder to find research experience, giving up a stable career in order to pursue a passion....it's not like they just take the easy ride into med school because they're older. I actually think it's easier to be a trad app, either going straight in or with 1-2 gap years.

+1!!!

 

[Cambover]

Not really. GPA/MCAT are what schools care about the most (ESPECIALLY allopathic schools). It doesn't matter if a nontrad has worked as an RN for 10 years and has saved the world; if he/she doesn't have competitive statistics then he/she will not be accepted.

Good scores will usually get your foot into the door, but not always. A lot of schools are looking for a "fit" and will say so. Just look at those rejected over in the Boston thread for instance.

Another envy thread on SDN.

Many non-trads are burdened with real life obligations that you don't face. Most will not surmount these hurdles, so... it's kind of like resenting a school for favoring URMs even though the vast majority of students are white or Asian.

Non-trads get preference for a lot of reasons like diversity, better motivation to enter medicine. But I think the biggest thing is MATURITY.

We were once immature too, but we got over it. You will too. The sooner, the better.

I enjoyed my post-bac experience, but by far, the most negative part of it was dealing with insecure kids who acted like they were still in high school. You guys have no idea how annoying you can appear to be to grown-up adults.

+1

I had an interviewer tell me that the only thing he looks for in applicants is maturity and refuses to help interview those entering the BS/MD program because of it.

 

[Donald Juan]

Seriously, the non-trad route is the long road to med school, not the short one.

Also, many people--like me--had hurdles from previous lives to get over. I had went to college for a year when I was 18 and never went and flunked everything. When I went back to school at 24 I made a straight 4.0 and 37 MCAT, but my overall GPA was a 3.2 because I had so many F's from before. I applied to 15 schools (and honestly, many of them were reaches) but only got an interview at two. If I didn't have those F's that were almost a decade old when I applied, I would have been competitive for any school in the country.

 

[docelh]

Tough love, but I hope it helps you guys as you prepare to interview.

On another note, it's very obvious that some people want to enter this field to validate themselves, to impress/please other people (parents, peers), or to embark on their path of world domination. Sorry to say, but it's a tough humbling field built around service to others.

 

[Member67988]

Another envy thread on SDN.

Many non-trads are burdened with real life obligations that you don't face. Most will not surmount these hurdles, so... it's kind of like resenting a school for favoring URMs even though the vast majority of students are white or Asian.

Non-trads get preference for a lot of reasons like diversity, better motivation to enter medicine. But I think the biggest thing is MATURITY.

We were once immature too, but we got over it. You will too. The sooner, the better.

I enjoyed my post-bac experience, but by far, the most negative part of it was dealing with insecure kids who acted like they were still in high school. You guys have no idea how annoying you can appear to be to grown-up adults.

Could you get more condescending? Age is not always synonymous with maturity.

 

[ciestar]

Like seriously, non-trads have like 10+ years of experience working as nurses, CNA's, some business positions, etc. That, vs some silly undergrad who has like 2 years of hospital volunteering. It's so not fair 🙁

Ahh, yes. Because studying for the mcat and volunteering around a work schedule and paying all those stupid bills and student loans is just a picnic.

 

[xffan624]

Like seriously, non-trads have like 10+ years of experience working as nurses, CNA's, some business positions, etc. That, vs some silly undergrad who has like 2 years of hospital volunteering. It's so not fair 🙁

Don't forget those lazy bums who joined the military and deployed to combat zones. 🙄

OP, you forget that many of us non-trads are somewhat intimidated academically by you traditional kids. We all either didn't even make it to college or didn't excel enough in college to make it to medical school straight from it. We either put our dream on hold, never knowing whether it would come true or not someday, or just buried it so we never knew it was there to begin with.

The non-trad who excelled in college and then just decided to put it on hold to build up our EC's and try to beat the traditional students is not the norm.

Myself, making the mean grade in my current medical school class, feel somewhat validated as my grades in undergrad would not have predicted that.

 

[Captain Sisko]

Most non-trads (defined as 10+ years out by your definition) have bad stats. But the ones who have good ones, whoa nellie!

Really, who even says that anymore?? 🙂

 

[mcloaf]

Like seriously, non-trads have like 10+ years of experience working as nurses, CNA's, some business positions, etc. That, vs some silly undergrad who has like 2 years of hospital volunteering. It's so not fair 🙁

Child, fairness has nothing to do with it.

 

[Straw Hat]

Don't forget those lazy bums who joined the military and deployed to combat zones. 🙄

OP, you forget that many of us non-trads are somewhat intimidated academically by you traditional kids. We all either didn't even make it to college or didn't excel enough in college to make it to medical school straight from it. We either put our dream on hold, never knowing whether it would come true or not someday, or just buried it so we never knew it was there to begin with.

The non-trad who excelled in college and then just decided to put it on hold to build up our EC's and try to beat the traditional students is not the norm.

Myself, making the mean grade in my current medical school class, feel somewhat validated as my grades in undergrad would not have predicted that.

This is basically what I was going to say. I feel a little intimidated jumping back into the science prereqs especially since I will be juggling a full time hospital job, volunteering, commuting, etc. Also, a lot of the nontrads I've seen have weaker stats but make up for it with professional/life experience and improved grades later on. OP it's definitely not as easy as you might think it is.

And xffan624, I'd love to hear more of your story via pm if you don't mind (since you're at USF, and we went to the same undergrad). USF be one of the schools I apply to in the future.

 

[TheLadyVanishes]

Nontrad weighing in here.

I consider myself to be close (though not as close as I'd like to be) to a non-trad sweet spot. I have a 3.75 GPA and 37 MCAT. I'm in my late 20s (wish I was younger!) with a well-paying job and minimal financial and familial obligations. I agree that some of my life/work experiences have helped me significantly this cycle and most of my interviewers have seen fit to comment on them. I don't think I represent all, or the majority, of non-trads.

And what is a non-trad, anyway? Friend A was out of undergrad for 2 years and gaining shadowing/clinical/research experience - probably considered a "traditional student". Friend B was out of undergrad for 3 years, gaining the same, but needed a postbac, so he would be considered a "nontraditional student".

These are some of the pros and cons I've experienced about being a nontrad:

PROS
- In most cases, more work experience. Particularly if this is military, clinical or leadership based, it is a big plus.
- These experiences can make us stand out from the 19-20 year old applicant pool, GPA and MCAT being equal.
- In a better spot financially. I was basically dependent on parents for support in undergrad, but as a working nontrad I've been able to fund my MCAT prep, AMCAS and secondary fees, and travel expenses for interviews.

CONS
- It's a lot harder to get into things like research and shadowing and I wish I had taken care of these as an undergrad.
- Any financial or familial obligations, such as mortgage, heavy student debt, spouse/children.
- Work schedules are significantly less flexible to accommodate shadowing and ECs, plus they are indifferent/hostile to an employee's educational aspirations.
- Burnout, since we're not getting any younger and often juggling multiple obligations.
- Letters of recommendation. Many of us are years out of school. I did not apply to some schools because their LOR reqs were too stringent.
- Social isolation. Most of my peers would rather be partying like they're in the Great Gatsby and don't get why I'm spending all my free time and money on pre-med stuff.
- I think there can still be a stigma against older applicants, particularly >30 year old. Even in one of my vocationally based grad programs, there was bias against middle-aged students.

 

[Mt Kilimanjaro]

Your kung fu is weak, child.

According to AAMC data, the average age of matriculants is actually lower for every race/ethnic group than the average age of applicants. See for yourself: https://www.aamc.org/download/321468/data/2012factstable6.pdf
So it seems this advantage you speak of does not exist.

The easiest route to med school will always be a traditional student from an upper middle class professional/physician parent household. Most of the non-trads I know didn't win the uterus lottery in such a way and that has much to do with their non-tradness.

 

[BlackBox]

???? Then take some years off and become a non-trad if it's so unfair. It's often harder to be a non-trad applicant, having to go back to school for pre-reqs, studying for the MCAT while working full time and/or caring for a family, harder to find research experience, giving up a stable career in order to pursue a passion....it's not like they just take the easy ride into med school because they're older. I actually think it's easier to be a trad app, either going straight in or with 1-2 gap years.

I love you.

 

[BlueLabel]

Tough love, but I hope it helps you guys as you prepare to interview.

On another note, it's very obvious that some people want to enter this field to validate themselves, to impress/please other people (parents, peers), or to embark on their path of world domination. Sorry to say, but it's a tough humbling field built around service to others.

Maybe I'm not quite understanding what you meant by the bolded, but I imagine it must feel very validating to achieve a goal that you have been striving towards and dedicating much of your energy to for years. Is that really a bad thing? I guess I see "validated" in this context as a synonym of "accomplished" or "triumphant/successful", maybe that's what I'm missing.

 

[streampaw]

I just feel like there are a lot of people saying that those applicants with a 3.8+ gpa and 35+ mcat are getting rejected because they don't have enough "experience". Like, if someone had a 3.8/35, and only had one year of volunteering, and no other clinical experiences, was competing with a non-trad who was 3.6/32 and had 5-10 years of clinical volunteering... the non-trad would obviously win in this case.

 

[streampaw]

I meant clinical experience, not volunteering. Such as if they were a nurse or something for 5--10 years

 

[SunsFun]

I meant clinical experience, not volunteering. Such as if they were a nurse or something for 5--10 years

I don't understand your problem with it. If they have seen what the hospital work is like first hand they might be seen as a safer bet to become better doctors than a kid with very superficial exposure.

And this is not even the case since looking at the numbers. I can't really see ADCOM giving preferential treatment to nontrads. The average age of a student at many top 20 schools is around 23. That's definitely not super nontrads friendly. There is normally only a couple of people per class 30+.

 

[Ismet]

I just feel like there are a lot of people saying that those applicants with a 3.8+ gpa and 35+ mcat are getting rejected because they don't have enough "experience". Like, if someone had a 3.8/35, and only had one year of volunteering, and no other clinical experiences, was competing with a non-trad who was 3.6/32 and had 5-10 years of clinical volunteering... the non-trad would obviously win in this case.

Yeah? How would you know that?

It's not that cut and dry. There are many reasons why a 3.8/35 applicant gets rejected. Lackluster or bad LORs, poor interviewing skills, immature writing or not answering essay prompts appropriately, lack of research for a research-focused school, lack of shadowing, lack of initiative, etc.

You are getting a 1) very limited and 2) very skewed/biased sample by just looking at SDN. The people who use SDN are not representative of the general applicant pool. Also realize that the number of traditional applicants greatly outnumbers the number of non-trad applicants. And another thing to consider is that there are many traditional applicants with many years and many types of clinical experiences (like 3-4 years of volunteering, hundreds of hours of shadowing, etc). THOSE are the ones who you are "competing" against more than the non-trads. It's completely possible to get more clinical experience than just one year of volunteering, you just have to have the initiative to go get it.

 

[NuttyEngDude]

Really, who even says that anymore?? 🙂

Non-trads should be given a break because they dont have as much time to study due to chasing trads off their lawns! 😛

 

[circulus vitios]

Maturity is such a load of bull****. Maturity, in the real world, means lowered expectations and coming to terms with the long, slow grind of work. It doesn't take 5-10 years, or whatever the criteria is for non-traditional status, to develop maturity.

 

[milski]

Maturity is such a load of bull****. Maturity, in the real world, means lowered expectations and coming to terms with the long, slow grind of work. It doesn't take 5-10 years, or whatever the criteria is for non-traditional status, to develop maturity.

Looks like you have it all figured out. 🙄

 

[SunsFun]

Maturity is such a load of bull****. Maturity, in the real world, means lowered expectations and coming to terms with the long, slow grind of work. It doesn't take 5-10 years, or whatever the criteria is for non-traditional status, to develop maturity.

That wasn't the case for me. There is a gigantic difference between the values and thinking I had when I was in my early twenties and my judgements now. The decision-making process is drastically different for me.

 

[mcloaf]

You are fully free to choose to do a gap year and add to your application. Additionally, competitive non-trads are a relatively small percentage of the total applicant pool.

You are fully free to choose to do a gap year and add to your application. Additionally, competitive non-trads are a relatively small percentage of the total applicant pool.

👍

 

[NYCNative]

Good scores will usually get your foot into the door, but not always. A lot of schools are looking for a "fit" and will say so. Just look at those rejected over in the Boston thread for instance.

I wish I had known that sooner-- then I would have written my secondaries about my "alleged" Craigslist escapades...

 

[occams_razor]

Most non-trads (defined as 10+ years out by your definition) have bad stats. But the ones who have good ones, whoa nellie!

yep. most non-trads were not pre-med in college. as such, most don't have the grades of the traditional pre-meds who went into college knowing where they needed to be GPA wise to be competitive for med school. head over to the non-trad forum and you'll find lots of people overcoming sub-3.0 GPAs

 

[Aerus]

If you're good enough to be a traditional applicant, why don't you take a couple years off to develop your EC's and get this "advantage" you speak of.

You've got to think why they're "non-traditional" in the first place. Nobody plans to apply as a non-trad. It's just that life made it happen and that's what they have to deal with.

 

[Goro]

100% concur.

PS: life's not fair. Not everybody gets a trophy either.

Not really. GPA/MCAT are what schools care about the most (ESPECIALLY allopathic schools). It doesn't matter if a nontrad has worked as an RN for 10 years and has saved the world; if he/she doesn't have competitive statistics then he/she will not be accepted.

 

[Cinclus]

Being nontrad can definitely make your application more interesting. All other things being equal, I would say being a nontrad gives you a leg up. It cannot overcome terrible numbers, though.

 

[Aerus]

Being nontrad can definitely make your application more interesting. All other things being equal, I would say being a nontrad gives you a leg up. It cannot overcome terrible numbers, though.

To a certain point. Remember that diversity is key. I doubt an adcom would be super willing to fill their entire class with non traditional students, unless the traditional pool is really that terrible.

 

[kyamh]

After finishing up applications this cycle as a pseudo-traditional (a few years out of college but less than 5) I would have to say that true non-traditional students have an uphill battle and I'm in the sweet spot.

Compared to a few friends I have who are young and are applying straight out of college, I have a much easier time articulating my reasons for going to medical school, describing my accomplishments, goals, values etc. At this point, my decision to go to medical school is never questioned for lack of "maturity", "knowledge", "experience", and I never get asked whether I'm just doing this because that's what my family's goal for me has been since the age of five. I don't envy college kids trying to do this at 19-21, and I don't envy 30-somethings who have a much more involved life to balance.

OP, if you want an "advantage" to getting into med school, I would suggest you take a couple years off and work a "real world" job. I don't think it's the age per se that makes an admissions difference, but it can make a huge difference to your approach to applications/interviews.

 

[dap]

After finishing up applications this cycle as a pseudo-traditional (a few years out of college but less than 5) I would have to say that true non-traditional students have an uphill battle and I'm in the sweet spot.

Compared to a few friends I have who are young and are applying straight out of college, I have a much easier time articulating my reasons for going to medical school, describing my accomplishments, goals, values etc. At this point, my decision to go to medical school is never questioned for lack of "maturity", "knowledge", "experience", and I never get asked whether I'm just doing this because that's what my family's goal for me has been since the age of five. I don't envy college kids trying to do this at 19-21, and I don't envy 30-somethings who have a much more involved life to balance.

OP, if you want an "advantage" to getting into med school, I would suggest you take a couple years off and work a "real world" job. I don't think it's the age per se that makes an admissions difference, but it can make a huge difference to your approach to applications/interviews.

+1 I think those of us in the 2/3/4-year-out-from-graduating pool are the ones that are really in the sweet spot. We can still shape our lives around the goal of becoming a physician, but also have more time to gain experience, buff up the ecs, etc. Even as a married applicant it's still much easier in this stage of life as neither me nor my spouse have jobs we can't afford to leave, no kids, very limited other obligations, etc. All of this gives us a slight advantage over undergrad juniors without the additional difficulties of being a true non-trad applicant.

I highly recommend finding something at least tangentially related to your eventual career path (ideally that will also pay you) and pursuing that for a couple of years before medical school. For me this is language learning and working overseas, for others it could be lab work, some other kind of research, working in a hospital/doc's office, etc.

My 2 cents anyway 👍

 

[occams_razor]

yeah someone who was pre-med in undergrad and took the pre-reqs and has average or above average stats, but took a few years after college before applying to med school will have the advantage of more life experience and added work experience when they apply. They will also still be in their 20s when they apply. IMO this type of applicant is not what I really think of when I think non-trad. Someone who had a different undergrad experience, is further removed from undergrad and has to go back to take pre-reqs or do GPA repair while working and possibly raising a family is a very different situation. There's also a huge difference between those applying in their 20s vs the non trads applying in their 30s or even 40s

 

[SN12357]

+1 I think those of us in the 2/3/4-year-out-from-graduating pool are the ones that are really in the sweet spot. We can still shape our lives around the goal of becoming a physician, but also have more time to gain experience, buff up the ecs, etc. Even as a married applicant it's still much easier in this stage of life as neither me nor my spouse have jobs we can't afford to leave, no kids, very limited other obligations, etc. All of this gives us a slight advantage over undergrad juniors without the additional difficulties of being a true non-trad applicant.

I highly recommend finding something at least tangentially related to your eventual career path (ideally that will also pay you) and pursuing that for a couple of years before medical school. For me this is language learning and working overseas, for others it could be lab work, some other kind of research, working in a hospital/doc's office, etc.

My 2 cents anyway 👍

While I think this is true and am seeing the advantages of being in this age range (4-5 years out of undergrad) in my own application cycle, I'd still hesitate to paint it as an unvarnished advantage. I've poured thousands and thousands of dollars into getting the prereqs done, just because entry level classes weren't on my transcript. Worked full time and taken classes halftime continually, including summers, sacrificing a lot of social time. Mid twenties is old enough to feel some biological clocks ticking, and not being in a position to start really tackling med school debt until your mid thirties isn't a joke either. I've resigned myself to and am prepared to live a minimal lifestyle for a long time, but I still do envy the trad students who knew what they wanted from the beginning and get to start their true careers earlier.

It's pretty much a six of one, half a dozen of the other situation.

 

[Narmerguy]

Your kung fu is weak, child.

According to AAMC data, the average age of matriculants is actually lower for every race/ethnic group than the average age of applicants. See for yourself: https://www.aamc.org/download/321468/data/2012factstable6.pdf
So it seems this advantage you speak of does not exist.

The easiest route to med school will always be a traditional student from an upper middle class professional/physician parent household. Most of the non-trads I know didn't win the uterus lottery in such a way and that has much to do with their non-tradness.

Well, that could be because a lot of people waited 1, 2, or 3 years out of college before applying because their college applications were so weak. It's not really clear from this data if, at the point at which applicants can be considered "nontrad", there is actually a boost to being nontrad. It's worth keeping in mind that true non-trads make up a small portion of the pool so they wouldn't have as large of an impact on the data as the swaths of students aged 22-25.

Personally, as someone taking 2 gap years, I think it's been much easier for myself and others with similar gaps. It's much easier to articulate my views, accomplishments, and goals while still being taken seriously. I haven't been asked questions like "why don't you do X?" or "don't you think you'd be better suited for Y?" because I've taken some time to explore other options and can speak confidently about what I do and do not want out of my career. It's a nice gig and I'm not even "nontrad" in my opinion.

Even still, so many premeds will continue to refuse to take any time off because of some perceived "race" that they are a part of with the rest of the medical establishment. Some have pretty good reasons for not taking any time off. Many have probably never thought of it. Others simply don't know what to do without staying in the confines of the comfortable, defined "track" that becoming a physician entails. In the end, it doesn't really matter that much how you get there so long as you handle your business, nail your academics, and try to pursue things that are meaningful to you.

 

[mcloaf]

Well, that could be because a lot of people waited 1, 2, or 3 years out of college before applying because their college applications were so weak. It's not really clear from this data if, at the point at which applicants can be considered "nontrad", there is actually a boost to being nontrad. It's worth keeping in mind that true non-trads make up a small portion of the pool so they wouldn't have as large of an impact on the data as the swaths of students aged 22-25.

Personally, as someone taking 2 gap years, I think it's been much easier for myself and others with similar gaps. It's much easier to articulate my views, accomplishments, and goals while still being taken seriously. I haven't been asked questions like "why don't you do X?" or "don't you think you'd be better suited for Y?" because I've taken some time to explore other options and can speak confidently about what I do and do not want out of my career. It's a nice gig and I'm not even "nontrad" in my opinion.

Even still, so many premeds will continue to refuse to take any time off because of some perceived "race" that they are a part of with the rest of the medical establishment. Some have pretty good reasons for not taking any time off. Many have probably never thought of it. Others simply don't know what to do without staying in the confines of the comfortable, defined "track" that becoming a physician entails. In the end, it doesn't really matter that much how you get there so long as you handle your business, nail your academics, and try to pursue things that are meaningful to you.

Agree with this.

1-3 years post-grad is the ideal place to be, IMO, in terms of having realized what you want and the direction you're headed, as well as being able to really put together a good application. In my first year class over 70% of people took at least one year off after graduating, with most of these being a year or two to do research, TFA, etc. The "real" non-trads who had previous careers are quite small in number.

As someone who didn't enter undergrad planning on medical school it would have been impossible for me to be anywhere near as competitive an applicant if I'd applied while in undergrad. The very competitive applicants from undergrad need to be focused and driven in a way that's not necessary if you're willing to take a little bit of time off.