Doctivism---Is it the new normal?

[mehc012]

---

Members do not see this ad.

Something that doesn't involve a hashtag and that does involve actual legislation. Or if you're protesting, a real ****ing protest, of the people who actually caused the problem, not just in random places for no solidly related reason. I was an active protestor for a while, the kind of guy who knows how to deal with tear gas and rubber bullets like they're an inconvenient weather event. I find this sort of "social activism" embarrassing and a complete waste of time.

That's a little harder to come by when the 'people who actually caused the problem' represent legitimacy and the 'problem' is partly the fact that they are heavily armed and not afraid to use force.

Twitter movements have actually become a big part of activism - look at the role it played in Egypt!

Perhaps if Congress was actually capable of passing meaningful legislation anymore...


I'll be frank, those are 3 disconnected points, and they're pretty lame excuses at that. I agree with you that the forms of protest you mentioned are more likely to be effective, but I find that any show of actual public opinion is a breath of fresh air in this country.

 

[Doctorphilic]

There's our difference - I do not see it as distinct, and I do not think it should be.
If a crowd of people is chanting the same thing, each voice is not distinct.

If one person or group were to change the message, they'd no longer be contributing to the chant - if several did so it would quickly become a normal crowd of people, with each little cluster engaged in their own conversation.

Definitely agree! And the original message was that I wanted to bring this up precisely because the protest is coming from the medical community (hence the name doctivism)! Having doctors be a part of the solution to the social/political upheaval that we experience as a society will be part and parcel of being a good doctor. And this is I think what the activists are getting at. I came across the same type of petitioning from Yale and Harvard med students regarding the killing of children in Mid East (the gaza war). I was pursuing MPH at Yale and that was the first time I saw med students engage in this kind of overt activism. If done correctly, I think it is good for the medical profession and it is definitely great for the society because we can can use the power of medicine to better the lives of all human beings!

 

[Mad Jack]

That's a little harder to come by when the 'people who actually caused the problem' represent legitimacy and the 'problem' is partly the fact that they are heavily armed and not afraid to use force.

Twitter movements have actually become a big part of activism - look at the role it played in Egypt!

Perhaps if Congress was actually capable of passing meaningful legislation anymore...


I'll be frank, those are 3 disconnected points, and they're pretty lame excuses at that. But I find that any show of actual public opinion is a breath of fresh air in this country.

Bull**** like this is designed to get you likes on Facebook and comments on Twitter, not to actually make something happen. In the United States, armchair activism of the Twitter and Facebook variety has been entirely useless aside from two notable examples, the Ice Bucket Challenge and KONY (which was a mistake). Twitter was successful in Egypt only because it allowed protestors to bypass government regulated channels of communication to organize with one another without disruption. In the United States, our problem isn't government disruption, it's apathy. Internet campaigns feed that apathy by taking very real issues and turning them into two word hashtags that we can feel passionate about for a moment before forgetting them and moving on. In America, buzzwords and hashtags generate buzz, not long-lasting, country-changing movements.

If you aren't willing to face heavily armed men who are not afraid to use force and are not willing to take a beating/end up in a jail cell/possibly die for a cause, you didn't care about it that much to begin with. That's the whole point of a damn cause- it's something you're willing to sacrifice for, not initiate a media circle jerk about from the safety of a hashtag.

 

[ski89]

Michael Brown is irrelevant to the matters at hand.
We're agreeing on this point - I don't think he should be the focus anymore - but then let's stop focusing on him. Him being included (though I think it's worth making sure that everyone is aware of the differences between indictment and conviction) does not invalidate the cause, just as it does not strengthen it. It's a meaningless symbol to rally around.

Eric Garner, on the other hand, is a perfect poster child for this.

Ok fine, but he is being included. The ignorance is palpable every time someone uses the "hands up don't shoot" slogan in one form or another. No it doesn't invalidate the cause, it does not strengthen the cause, it weakens it. (and I understand the difference - I don't who that was directed towards)

Eric Garner is not a good poster child, and is only mildly better than M Brown. He was a 6' 3", 300+ lb man that was resisting arrest. Is there data on whether black men that are resisting arrest are put in choke holds more than white men resisting arrest? Can the police just say, OK, I guess we won't arrest you today since you don't want to come with us?

The fact is, Eric Garner was a large black man with a host of medical problems including COPD and likely a component of heart failure (according to the ME) that contributed to his death. Are choke holds the best way to take down criminals that are resisting arrest? perhaps not. But this is simply a case of a perfect storm between unwise police tactics and chronic medical issues that contributed to this man's death. How you can say that this was about race is beyond me.

 

[Doctorphilic]

Something that doesn't involve a hashtag and that does involve actual legislation. Or if you're protesting, a real ****ing protest, of the people who actually caused the problem, not just in random places for no solidly related reason. I was an active protestor for a while, the kind of guy who knows how to deal with tear gas and rubber bullets like they're an inconvenient weather event. I find this sort of "social activism" embarrassing and a complete waste of time.

Don't we live in the Kardashian world! Society has already decided if it is not in the hashtag it is not popular or important enough. But I get your overall point about having a tangible goal/plan that can bring about a lasting change in policy. It is hard to do with 24hr news and all that distraction.

 

[Mad Jack]

Don't we live in the Kardashian world! Society has already decided if it is not in the hashtag it is not popular or important enough. But I get your overall point about having a tangible goal/plan that can bring about a lasting change in policy. It is hard to do with 24hr news and all that distraction.

The problem is that people want change but they aren't willing to sacrifice anything to make it happen. Kids these days have all the good intentions but don't want to actually risk losing anything themselves to make those good intentions become a reality. Screw that- if you actually care about something, you're willing to take some pain for your cause. Which means these kids don't really care, not in a personal sense. They just recognize a wrong in the world and would like it to go away. But they wouldn't be willing to sacrifice anything to make that happen- it's important enough to spend 5 minutes making a Tweet about, but not important enough to spend some time outside in the cold staring down riot police, because that's just scary and I don't care enough about these innocent lives to risk my own innocent life bro

 

[jamcat]

Michael Brown is irrelevant to the matters at hand.
We're agreeing on this point - I don't think he should be the focus anymore - but then let's stop focusing on him.
....
Eric Garner, on the other hand, is a perfect poster child for this.

Yes, please tell this to the protesters. I was one initially, but I have since felt compelled to withdraw my support for this reason, among others. I continue to support the cause of justice, but I cannot do it alongside the people who are currently protesting in my city. A sizable majority of Americans are outraged at the Eric Garner decision, and we have one of those rare opportunities to actually force change here. Unfortunately, the protesters, by focusing on "hands up don't shoot" and "how do you spell racist? C-O-P-S!" are hampering our ability to effect meaningful change. As someone who thinks we have a problem and thinks we need to fix it, I'm disappointed.

 

[Doctorphilic]

Ok fine, but he is being included. The ignorance is palpable every time someone uses the "hands up don't shoot" slogan in one form or another. No it doesn't invalidate the cause, it does not strengthen the cause, it weakens it. (and I understand the difference - I don't who that was directed towards)

Eric Garner is not a good poster child, and is only mildly better than M Brown. He was a 6' 3", 300+ lb man that was resisting arrest. Is there data on whether black men that are resisting arrest are put in choke holds more than white men resisting arrest? Can the police just say, OK, I guess we won't arrest you today since you don't want to come with us?

The fact is, Eric Garner was a large black man with a host of medical problems including COPD and likely a component of heart failure (according to the ME) that contributed to his death. Are choke holds the best way to take down criminals that are resisting arrest? perhaps not. But this is simply a case of a perfect storm between unwise police tactics and chronic medical issues that contributed to this man's death. How you can say that this was about race is beyond me.

Race has a tortured history in this country. So, it is hard to disentangle from recent killings. What about blacks being stopped on the street at disproportionate rate (stop and frisk) and that we know causes all sorts of stress etc. Nonetheless, there is something wrong with killing unarmed individuals and this is a repeating pattern that needs some sort of solution. Again, my original question was more about the degree to which medical professionals can get involved in this kind of activism.

 

[type12]

Something that doesn't involve a hashtag and that does involve actual legislation. Or if you're protesting, a real ****ing protest, of the people who actually caused the problem, not just in random places for no solidly related reason. I was an active protestor for a while, the kind of guy who knows how to deal with tear gas and rubber bullets like they're an inconvenient weather event. I find this sort of "social activism" embarrassing and a complete waste of time.

SDN need more people who think for themselves and don't just mindlessly join the "look at me doing something" social media circlejerk. This is nothing more than ego stroking, bragging to friends on facebook and making sure you get your 15 minutes. Bravo.

I'm reminded of the absurdity of blowing out a candle to indicate someone affected by cancer BS they had us do. Neither of my parents kept good records or ties to their home country or family, so it got really awkward when I never ended up blowing my candle. Classmates were pissed, as I looked like a jerk for something out of my control. Likely someone in my family died from cancer, but f### if I knew. Doesn't make me think of cancer as less worse or something, geez.

EDIT: Whoops, didn't see the second page. You already called out that this is armchair activism and attention-whoring, with very little (if we're lucky) effect on changing anything. Awesome example RE: Ice Bucket Challenge.

 

[Doctorphilic]

SDN need more people who think for themselves and don't just mindlessly join the "look at me doing something" social media circlejerk. This is nothing more than ego stroking, bragging to friends on facebook and making sure you get your 15 minutes. Bravo.

I'm reminded of the absurdity of blowing out a candle to indicate someone affected by cancer BS they had us do. Neither of my parents kept good records or ties to their home country or family, so it got really awkward when I never ended up blowing my candle. Classmates were pissed, as I looked like a jerk for something out of my control. Likely someone in my family died from cancer, but f### if I knew. Doesn't make me think of cancer as less worse or something, geez.

EDIT: Whoops, didn't see the second page. You already called out that this is armchair activism and attention-whoring, with very little (if we're lucky) effect on changing anything. Awesome example RE: Ice Bucket Challenge.

Interesting take! Can you elaborate on why you think this students are armchair activists? They are spending their precious time that they could have studied on an issue that they think is important. What would you do differently?

 

[Mad Jack]

Interesting take! Can you elaborate on why you think this students are armchair activists? They are spending their precious time that they could have studied on an issue that they think is important. What would you do differently?

Precious time doing nothing but a glorified photo op that no one cares about while sacrificing nothing except for maybe 10 minutes they'd have likely been just chatting during anyway. Yeah, I don't know how they managed to fit it in.

 

[mehc012]

Ok fine, but he is being included. The ignorance is palpable every time someone uses the "hands up don't shoot" slogan in one form or another. No it doesn't invalidate the cause, it does not strengthen the cause, it weakens it. (and I understand the difference - I don't who that was directed towards)

Eric Garner is not a good poster child, and is only mildly better than M Brown. He was a 6' 3", 300+ lb man that was resisting arrest. Is there data on whether black men that are resisting arrest are put in choke holds more than white men resisting arrest? Can the police just say, OK, I guess we won't arrest you today since you don't want to come with us?

The fact is, Eric Garner was a large black man with a host of medical problems including COPD and likely a component of heart failure (according to the ME) that contributed to his death. Are choke holds the best way to take down criminals that are resisting arrest? perhaps not. But this is simply a case of a perfect storm between unwise police tactics and chronic medical issues that contributed to this man's death. How you can say that this was about race is beyond me.

I didn't say jack about race being why Garner was killed - I said that there are two main narratives in this movement, racial tensions and police using excessive force.

For what it's worth, I think that escalating an interaction with a civilian who was not committing a crime with a tactic which is against regulations because it is potentially lethal is a problem. It's a big problem. Should the police be allowed to physically and forcefully detain anyone with a prior criminal record simply because once they start, the person protests what is happening?
At the very least, there should have been an indictment - which is not a statement of guilt, but merely an admission that there is a reasonable chance that something criminal occurred.

Now I will mention race, but only to this extent: the question in all of these killings is not 'can the force be justified,' but rather 'if I had been the one in that situation, would that level of force have been used?' There seems to be a pattern where, in situations where force can be justified, it is more often used when the target is black. So discussing whether or not each individual case can be justified is not addressing the overall issue.

 

[type12]

Interesting take! Can you elaborate on why you think this students are armchair activists? They are spending their precious time that they could have studied on an issue that they think is important. What would you do differently?

I didn't really add to what MadJack said. However, to give a an example, even writing to your representatives is more productive and effective. Remember, they need your vote, and if THIS many people wrote in rather than did something that takes zero effort, representatives would have noticed. Downside? How do you tweet about it? I guess you could take a photo of the letter you wrote, but you'd first have to write the letter, then you'd have to actually send it so you're not a liar... I dunno, maybe I'll just lie down for a bit... wait a minute...

Not sure if anyone's following GamerGate stuff, but the "effective" hits either side of the controversy involved writing to companies, representatives, and individuals. The tweets and publications are just flair.

 

[mehc012]

I didn't really add to what MadJack said. However, to give a an example, even writing to your representatives is more productive and effective. Remember, they need your vote, and if THIS many people wrote in rather than did something that takes zero effort, representatives would have noticed. Downside? How do you tweet about it? I guess you could take a photo of the letter you wrote, but you'd first have to write the letter, then you'd have to actually send it so you're not a liar... I dunno, maybe I'll just lie down for a bit... wait a minute...

Meh, I have absolutely zero faith that our representatives are capable of accomplishing jack all for anyone. Congress is a paralyzed heap of bile and bipartisan bickering...and that's if they even tried to listen to public opinion in the first place. Elections don't actually rely on action and platforms anymore, just "all Democrats are bad" vs "all Republicans are bad". People vote for whichever camp they fall into and nobody has to actually worry about standing for anything anymore.

 

[type12]

Meh, I have absolutely zero faith that our representatives are capable of accomplishing jack all for anyone. Congress is a paralyzed heap of bile and bipartisan bickering...and that's if they even tried to listen to public opinion in the first place. Elections don't actually rely on action and platforms anymore, just "all Democrats are bad" vs "all Republicans are bad". People vote for whichever camp they fall into and nobody has to actually worry about standing for anything anymore.

If we were to assume this to be true, how does laying down improve this situation?

Congress is just the most popular legislative body for media; go to your local state and see how many bills were passed this month, nevermind year. Again, this type of thinking is the product of media sensationalism and doesn't reflect reality. Lots of things are going on, even if they are not on a federal level. Making your city, your county, or state better doesn't mean nothing. This is the "my vote doesn't matter" argument all over again.

 

[mehc012]

If we were to assume this to be true, how does laying down improve this situation?

Congress is just the most popular legislative body for media; go to your local state and see how many bills were passed this month, nevermind year. Again, this type of thinking is the product of media sensationalism and doesn't reflect reality. Lots of things are going on, even if they are not on a federal level. Making your city, your county, or state better doesn't mean nothing. This is the "my vote doesn't matter" argument all over again.

I change states every couple of years and I work/live/study in at least 4 different cities/counties at any given time. I guess I'm just not very attached to local stuff.

I agree that laying down does nothing concrete. I just don't think that writing legislators does either. Personally, I think the most we can hope for from ANY action is making a statement, so I guess I'm not disappointed that that is all the protests accomplish.

 

[Doctorphilic]

If we were to assume this to be true, how does laying down improve this situation?

Congress is just the most popular legislative body for media; go to your local state and see how many bills were passed this month, nevermind year. Again, this type of thinking is the product of media sensationalism and doesn't reflect reality. Lots of things are going on, even if they are not on a federal level. Making your city, your county, or state better doesn't mean nothing. This is the "my vote doesn't matter" argument all over again.

Fair enough. But how do you explain the fact that in Ferguson the whole system was rigged (not just the police) and this is where even elements of the government are part of the problem. But I agree that focusing on legislation locally might be effective. Still, the social media buzz is why we are engaged like this. I think combining the social media element with the real on the ground approach that focuses on policy might be ideal. It is just interesting to see students in white coat saying "dont shoot".

 

[mehc012]

Fair enough. But how do you explain the fact that in Ferguson the whole system was rigged (not just the police) and this is where even elements of the government are part of the problem. But I agree that focusing on legislation locally might be effective. Still, the social media buzz is why we are engaged like this. I think combining the social media element with the real on the ground approach that focuses on policy might be ideal. It is just interesting to see students in white coat saying "dont shoot".

I agree with combining policy efforts with attempts to spread the word...best of both worlds, no matter how limited each sphere may be.

But I do not know what you mean by 'rigged'.

 

[radkat101]

I'm just going to throw this out there: this is a very real issue, but the ways many physicians and medical students have been handling it have been straight up ******ed and facepalm inducing.

As an aside, we should really apply some of that "doctivism" toward our own profession so that our autonomy and income stops being eroded.

This. It boils my blood to see medical students suddenly become activists for stupid crap like this but it's crickets when it comes to problems within our own profession.

 

[mehc012]

This. It boils my blood to see medical students suddenly become activists for stupid crap like this but it's crickets when it comes to problems within our own profession.

See, the ones who are protesting clearly don't think this is 'stupid crap'.

I would rather fight against institutional racism and police brutality than for a thicker wallet, and I'm not apologetic about that fact

 

[YH5]

My question is this: do medical students or doctors for that matter have a duty to engage in activism?

I would hope that the medical examiners who performed the autopsies in these cases were engaged in logical thinking, not "doctivism". All other med students and doctors are entitled to act as foolish as they want.

 

[Lucca]

Something that doesn't involve a hashtag and that does involve actual legislation. Or if you're protesting, a real ****ing protest, of the people who actually caused the problem, not just in random places for no solidly related reason. I was an active protestor for a while, the kind of guy who knows how to deal with tear gas and rubber bullets like they're an inconvenient weather event. I find this sort of "social activism" embarrassing and a complete waste of time.

There is something about #activism to be very diluting and annoying, but I don't ignore the effect social media can have in spreading ideas around. As far as legislation goes that's a whole different issue. I vote and I encourage other people to vote so I do what I can but expecting meaningful legislation from an activism campaign is some wishful thinking for problems as big as these. That's why usually my activism is centered around smaller things that I feel are very important: Having mental health hotlines at the school be available in Spanish and Mandarin, affordable housing options in recently gentrified neighborhoods, etc. To each their own. I don't think real protesting requires tear gas and rubber bullets though. That's just looking for a fight. Look at the push for body cameras across the country and the POTUS support it garnered. That's a big political move and while it is easy for a conservative onlooker to say "black, liberal president supports pre-dominantly black, liberal activist movement big whoop", POTUS support behind any large, public issue is always a big deal. There have been results from the #activism surrounding the gas-and-bullet activism in Ferguson.

 

[The_Sunny_Doc]

See, the ones who are protesting clearly don't think this is 'stupid crap'.

I would rather fight against institutional racism and police brutality than for a thicker wallet, and I'm not apologetic about that fact

You and I are on the same page re: institutionalized racism. 🙂 It seems a bit simplistic though to distill healthcare reform and physician compensation to the bolded phrase.

It's great to see young people mobilizing for a good cause as opposed to Kim Kardashian's next photo op. I am, however, hesitant to join in because of the risk of alienating people (especially older folks) by retweeting/sharing these kinds of sentiments. Some of these people are our future patients, who are supposed to be able to relate to us and feel comfortable disclosing their deepest, darkest secrets. That's the danger of social media. We are eventually going to be taking on a professional role, and every single Tweet/share/forum post will be scrutinized when employers and patients Google our names. It's probably an overly cautious mentality, but something to consider when you're tempted to tweet something particularly vitriolic.

 

[radkat101]

See, the ones who are protesting clearly don't think this is 'stupid crap'.

I would rather fight against institutional racism and police brutality than for a thicker wallet, and I'm not apologetic about that fact

I used to feel the same way.

 

[mehc012]

You and I are on the same page re: institutionalized racism. It seems a bit simplistic though to distill healthcare reform and physician compensation to the bolded phrase.

It's great to see young people mobilizing for a good cause as opposed to Kim Kardashian's next photo op. I am, however, hesitant to join in because of the risk of alienating people (especially older folks) by retweeting/sharing these kinds of sentiments. Some of these people are our future patients, who are supposed to be able to relate to us and feel comfortable disclosing their deepest, darkest secrets. That's the danger of social media. We are eventually going to to taking on a professional role, and every single Tweet/share/forum post will be scrutinized when employers and patients Google our names. It's probably an overly cautious mentality, but something to consider when you're tempted to tweet something particularly vitriolic.

I concur...I was responding largely to the two components referenced in the post I was quoting.

You can use Twitter and forums without using your real name. I mean, yes, you want to be professional to the casual observer, but I feel no more obligation to protect the feelings of someone who is digging through the internet trying to find every possible online presence of mine than I would someone who bugged my phone calls to see if I said anything they disagreed with.

 

[ridethecliche]

Doctors take a stand in important issues all the time including this:

http://www.buzzfeed.com/tasneemnash...tors-helped-the-cia-torture-and-interrogate-d

I freaking love Gawande. Wish I'd had the chance to see him speak or meet him... :/
Sure, he's calling out doctors involved here, but really... it's much bigger than that.

 

[Entadus]

Do they have a duty to do so? No, not particularly, not beyond the responsibility that all people have to fight for what they believe in and support their fellow humans.

However, is it so surprising that a pool of people which was specifically culled to include a large number of people who were proactive in supporting causes which they found meaningful would continue to have a high level of activism moving forward?

Ethical arguments have been made that physicians have an obligation to advocate for the underserved.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20719028

Waiting for Dermviser to comment about how little "overprivileged" students at all those institutions know about racial discrimination in America 🙄

To be fair, I'm sure that there were students from those schools who did not take part in those demonstrations.

In all honesty I feel bad for police, because most of them are good people and the public completely turned against them. What a bad time to be a cop!

Awww, how cute. Somebody putting words in DermViser's mouth. @DermViser I don't think you should even respond to this.

 

[ridethecliche]

The public isn't anti police. It's anti police brutality, police militarization, and police/judicial policies that disproportionately affect people of color.

It's possible to be all of those things and still respect good officers, some of whom joined protestors and were treated respectfully in uniform.

While I disagree with dermviser on most of his views, I respect his opinion and think others should refrain from mocking those that disagree with them. That's a stupid way to have discourse.

If you're going to be an asshat, just bow out.

 

[DermViser]

They didn't show a picture from Pritzker, but I know for a fact that Pritzker also participated because of my friends' fb shares. I'm proud of all my fellow WUSTL graduates both at WUSM and Pritzker for participating. I think it's good that med students are aware of these issues and standing up for the right causes.

You're right.
Holding up signs and doing a maneuver "Hands Up Don't Shoot" when the grand jury testimony has thoroughly debunked this story, speaks very well on Pritzker students. Just what I want - a doctor who acts on emotion rather than evidence.

 

[DermViser]

Harvard med school also did, judging by my friends' pics and posts. I was definitely proud, though it took a surprising amount of digging to figure out what the heck they all meant by 'die-in'. I still think it's an odd name for it, but hey...whatever spreads and gets people involved, eh?

It's especially hard to figure out if it was a die-in or not, when people are actively texting while doing it. It tends to lose its impact after that: (6:00)

 

[DermViser]

It's amazing how much of this stuff stops in residency and beyond.

CV padding at its finest.

They were almost all MS-1s and MS-2s. You can definitely bet this will be used by a medical student to CV pad. Never let a crisis go to waste. I wonder if they'll use their hashtag activism as part of Work, Volunteering, or Research experience on their ERAS application.

 

[DermViser]

Waiting for Dermviser to comment about how little "overprivileged" students at all those institutions know about racial discrimination in America 🙄

To be fair, I'm sure that there were students from those schools who did not take part in those demonstrations.

In all honesty I feel bad for police, because most of them are good people and the public completely turned against them. What a bad time to be a cop!

I would work on your reading comprehension first, before attributing certain opinions to me. "To be fair, I'm sure that there were students from those schools who did not take part in those demonstrations." --- Ya think?!?! They were nearly all MS-1s and MS-2s. MS-3s and MS-4s acutually have real things to do and worry about. Nothing like a good protest right before having to sit in a lecture hall though. I wonder if those students also support PNHP's other values. Hmmmm..... That not so much.

If you look at the comments on articles, you'll see people mentioning deaths due to medical errors (not what they came in with but due to medical errors), which kills MORE people than a local police force annually and them wondering if medical students will protest that. What about a white doctor and a black patient and that person dying? Just as you can use the sword on others it can just as easily be used on you.

 

[ridethecliche]

Hey dermviser, care to comment on the Harvard and Columbia law students doing this too?

Surely they and their professors understand the function of a grand jury, the role of a prosecutor, and potential conflicts of interest?

Your response is emotional as well, interestingly and ignores the history of prosecutors knowingly misleading juries. If our criminal justice system is so perfect, then why do things get reversed and departments get into trouble? Why is it not a conflict of interest for a co-worker to present evidence at a grand jury and ignore it's function and use it as a one sided trial.

Trails determine innocence and guilt, not grand juries. Convenient to forget when you agree with what happened right?

How do you feel about the athletes that are wearing shirts in support during warm ups as well? Do you mock them too as misguided or do you think that's there's an iota of a possibility that your experience in this society is drastically different than theirs.

People aren't jumping to the conclusion that the officers were guilty they're pissed because a grand jury was used as a one sided trial. It's a huge deal and you act as though that's totally normal.

Re: medical comparison. It was used in the Ebola case in Texas, wasnt it? I'm not sure I totally disagree. It's not like health outcomes in Texas and the US are grossly different stratified for race and income or anything.

 

[DermViser]

I know I shouldn't open this can of worms, but what are these protests suppose to accomplish? Are police officers that are put in difficult situations really the main source of plight in black America? Are they protesting the lack if indictment of these individuals despite the fact that there is no legal ground to do so? Or is it just a general feeling of prejudice against aa's that may or may not have played a role in these recent deaths? To me, the only valid reason is the latter - and even still, I find these protests somewhat disrespectful to police officers that put their life at risk on a daily basis. I don't think it makes me racist to say that..

Makes people want to just go right out and become cops amirite? Sad that you had end your paragraph with that, considering some people here will interpret your paragraph as racist in sentiment. If Wilson had been indicted and then found not guilty, the SAME RESPONSE of looting, setting things on fire, etc. would have happened. All respected legal experts in the media had said that if this had gone to trial, Wilson would have been found not guilty.

 

[gshocke]

You're right.
Holding up signs and doing a maneuver "Hands Up Don't Shoot" when the grand jury testimony has thoroughly debunked this story, speaks very well on Pritzker students. Just what I want - a doctor who acts on emotion rather than evidence.

and this is where I get annoyed... the hands up dont shoot movement began in response to the mike brown issue but that's not where it ends. it doesnt matter what conclusion the jury came to, the movement is not based on 'emotion' and either are the students' participation. Hands up dont shoot is a movement that represents the COUNTLESS times blacks have been victims of unprovoked (eric garner) and unarmed (trayvon martin) violence/murders. so please do not say that these students are acting on emotion rather than evidence just because you fail to see the overflowing evidence

 

[DermViser]

Hey dermviser, care to comment on the Harvard and Columbia law students doing this too?

Surely they and their professors understand the function of a grand jury, the role of a prosecutor, and potential conflicts of interest?

Your response is emotional as well, interestingly and ignores the history of prosecutors knowingly misleading juries. If our criminal justice system is so perfect, then why do things get reversed and departments get into trouble? Why is it not a conflict of interest for a co-worker to present evidence at a grand jury and ignore it's function and use it as a one sided trial.

Trails determine innocence and guilt, not grand juries. Convenient to forget when you agree with what happened right?

How do you feel about the athletes that are wearing shirts in support during warm ups as well? Do you mock them too as misguided or do you think that's there's an iota of a possibility that your experience in this society is drastically different than theirs.

People aren't jumping to the conclusion that the officers were guilty they're pissed because a grand jury was used as a one sided trial. It's a huge deal and you act as though that's totally normal.

Re: medical comparison. It was used in the Ebola case in Texas, wasnt it? I'm not sure I totally disagree. It's not like health outcomes in Texas and the US are grossly different stratified for race and income or anything.

You're right. Nothing says acting like a mature, responsible adult like taking part in protests, and then groveling to your professors and law school administration like a child that you don't have enough time to study bc of your protest involvement and thus need your finals moved. Yup. Not at all shocked you looked up to that as an example.

You know why sports athletes are being mocked? It's bc they do STUPID things like saying "Hands Up Don't Shoot" at a national game when the grand jury evidence pretty much said that that didn't happen. But bc it's a "possibility" that's the best thing to build a movement on. Amirite? Feel free to jump to more conclusions. It's probably the best exercise you're going to get today.

 

[DermViser]

and this is where I get annoyed... the hands up dont shoot movement began in response to the mike brown issue but that's not where it ends. it doesnt matter what conclusion the jury came to, the movement is not based on 'emotion' and either are the students' participation. Hands up dont shoot is a movement that represents the COUNTLESS times blacks have been victims of unprovoked (eric garner) and unarmed (trayvon martin) violence/murders. so please do not say that these students are acting on emotion rather than evidence just because you fail to see the overflowing evidence

Absolute BS. The "Hands Up Don't Shoot" moniker evolved directly from Dorian Johnson's, who was with Michael Brown that night, initial statements. The same one where he said that Brown ran away and was shot in the back and then we get the freakin' forensic pathology report that says ALL the shots were in the front.
I'll say it again. It was a LIE. Hence basing a movement or social cause on it, is why it is wrong and makes you look foolish.

Ah, so it doesn't matter what conclusion the grand jury came too? Good to know you respect the rule of law.

 

[DermViser]

You guys should check out the "white coats for black lives" thread in allopathic. Nearly gave myself an ulcer trying to defend the right to be angry about the things going on in our country today.

You're right what do those idiots in Allopathic know right? 🙄🙄🙄 What would they know about healthcare?

 

[DermViser]

Normally I wouldn't comment on things like this, but with all the support for it here (and anti-support in the allopathic forum) I figured I'd chime in.

I fully support social causes, and I understand that minorities go through exceptional difficulties that as a white individual I cannot understand. However, I find it discouraging that the cause is tagged WhiteCoatsForBlackLives. What about Hispanics, Asians, people from the Middle East? Hell, what about Whites?

We're all healthcare professionals or aspiring healthcare professionals: physicians, medical students, premedical students, etc. Our profession should, beyond predispositions, be blind to the race of individuals. We should care for those in need, regardless of skin color or inherent biases. To me, this tag line represents something that gives the connotation of a belief I disagree with - that an individual's race makes them of different value.

It is for this reason I find something inherently wrong about that tagline. It should be WhiteCoatsForAllLives, or some other tagline that doesn't continue to propagate a mentality of this being a "White Cop vs The Black Man" situation. We're all in this together, folks. Let's come together, not further divide.

BINGO. Nothing better than the general public to believe (and they would be right in this case) that future doctors only care for certain lives based on skin color. There is a reason using a white coat to put yourself as having gravitas on a position can backfire.

 

[DermViser]

I'm just going to throw this out there: this is a very real issue, but the ways many physicians and medical students have been handling it have been straight up ******ed and facepalm inducing.

As an aside, we should really apply some of that "doctivism" toward our own profession so that our autonomy and income stops being eroded.

I wonder if the same students (and premeds here) who wish to take part in this type of activism, feel the same way about doctors and medical errors causing deaths every year? 100,000 per year I believe. That's more than any local police force or several police forces. What about a white doctor, and a black patient and that person dies? Not as fun when the microscope is turned inwards is it?

 

[DermViser]

Michael Brown is irrelevant to the matters at hand.
We're agreeing on this point - I don't think he should be the focus anymore - but then let's stop focusing on him. Him being included (though I think it's worth making sure that everyone is aware of the differences between indictment and conviction) does not invalidate the cause, just as it does not strengthen it. It's a meaningless symbol to rally around.

Why bc it destroys your narrative? Too late. He's part of the group as med students included him in this. Might want to use evidence based thinking, next time.

 

[ridethecliche]

You're right. Nothing says acting like a mature, responsible adult like taking part in protests, and then groveling to your professors and law school administration like a child that you don't have enough time to study bc of your protest involvement and thus need your finals moved. Yup. Not at all shocked you looked up to that as an example.

You know why sports athletes are being mocked? It's bc they do STUPID things like saying "Hands Up Don't Shoot" at a national game when the grand jury evidence pretty much said that that didn't happen. But bc it's a "possibility" that's the best thing to build a movement on. Amirite? Feel free to jump to more conclusions. It's probably the best exercise you're going to get today.

I'm actually not surprised. As future leaders in the law field, they have an inkling as to what process is supposed to look like more so than you and I do.

I certainly don't call you out on your kvetching when you complain about the system. Those are the very people that will hopefully work to change it.

Grand juries don't determine what happened or didn't happen. They're not supposed to. They're supposed to determine if something happened. These were treated as one sided trials. They can apparently be used that way, but that is not their function. Scalia has written on it, if you want to see a conservative voice talk about it. Trust him, not me.

This isn't about the two people (and many many others) that were killed. It is, and it isn't. This is about varying tiers of justice, a court system that gives financial incentive to incarcerate (notably to black men), and so on.

I have black friends that live in nyc. They're well educated, well read, have good jobs and go to good schools. They ALL have NYPD horror stories that start out with them just walking down the street. There's nothing racist about police policies like stop and frisk right?

You keep bringing up that the officer was innocent. There was no trial. You can't say that. That's not how it works lol. Even trials declare 'not guilty' not 'innocent' for a reason.

BINGO. Nothing better than the general public to believe (and they would be right in this case) that future doctors only care for certain lives based on skin color. There is a reason using a white coat to put yourself as having gravitas on a position can backfire.

You realize that people of middle eastern, asian, hispanic, etc. descent are rallying around this right? African americans in this country have it far worse than any of us.

Bringing attention to one of the most marginalized and targeted groups doesn't mean you're ignoring all the other ones. Given recent events, we are voicing our support for another marginalized group. This doesn't mean that no one cares about any other groups.

The bolded part in your statement is a logical fallacy at best and tryhard at worst.

If A is true, then that doesn't mean that not-A is false. Seriously dude, c'mon.

Why bc it destroys your narrative? Too late. He's part of the group as med students included him in this. Might want to use evidence based thinking, next time.

Good advice. Start using it.

 

[DermViser]

I'm actually not surprised. As future leaders in the law field, they have an inkling as to what process is supposed to look like more so than you and I do.

I certainly don't call you out on your kvetching when you complain about the system. Those are the very people that will hopefully work to change it.

Grand juries don't determine what happened or didn't happen. They're not supposed to. They're supposed to determine if something happened. These were treated as one sided trials. They can apparently be used that way, but that is not their function. Scalia has written on it, if you want to see a conservative voice talk about it. Trust him, not me.

This isn't about the two people (and many many others) that were killed. It is, and it isn't. This is about varying tiers of justice, a court system that gives financial incentive to incarcerate (notably to black men), and so on.

I have black friends that live in nyc. They're well educated, well read, have good jobs and go to good schools. They ALL have NYPD horror stories that start out with them just walking down the street. There's nothing racist about police policies like stop and frisk right?

You keep bringing up that the officer was innocent. There was no trial. You can't say that. That's not how it works lol. Even trials declare 'not guilty' not 'innocent' for a reason.

You realize that people of middle eastern, asian, hispanic, etc. descent are rallying around this right? African americans in this country have it far worse than any of us.

Bringing attention to one of the most marginalized and targeted groups doesn't mean you're ignoring all the other ones. Given recent events, we are voicing our support for another marginalized group. This doesn't mean that no one cares about any other groups.

The bolded part in your statement is a logical fallacy at best and tryhard at worst.

If A is true, then that doesn't mean that not-A is false. Seriously dude, c'mon.

Good advice. Start using it.

It has nothing to do with the process. Participating in protests does not give you the right to move your final exams. That's a childish move. Period. End of Story. Your professors aren't supposed to accomodate your every whim. You have no standing to comment on my or those in Allos kvetching of the system as you're not practicing in it.

No, grand juries are not supposed to determine that. Grand juries are supposed to determine if there was PROBABLE CAUSE that the person did it.

Yeah, is that why the hashtag was WhiteCoatsBlackLives? I can see the love for those of middle eastern, asian, hispanic descent right there. I'm sure the general public will love it. Oh wait, they don't. It may not be right but it will be what future patients believe.

 

[gshocke]

Absolute BS. The "Hands Up Don't Shoot" moniker evolved directly from Dorian Johnson's, who was with Michael Brown that night, initial statements. The same one where he said that Brown ran away and was shot in the back and then we get the freakin' forensic pathology report that says ALL the shots were in the front.
I'll say it again. It was a LIE. Hence basing a movement or social cause on it, is why it is wrong and makes you look foolish.

Ah, so it doesn't matter what conclusion the grand jury came too? Good to know you respect the rule of law.

Did I not just say that the hands up dont shoot movement evolved from the mike brown situation and you just said the moniker evolved from dorian johnson's statement who was with michael brown... Im trying to understand the difference what we just said?
what I am saying is that regardless what situation it started from, it does not end there. unless you are trying to say that in the past 50 yrs, blacks have never been victim to unwarranted police brutality.

and respect for the rule of the law? lmao that was a funny one. you mean the law that has continued to fail the black race for 100s of years? and now because a couple of decades a go a couple segregation laws were abolished now im supposed to think that the law as a black man's best interest at heart? give me a break.

but then again, a system cannot fail those whom it was never meant to protect, so I guess youre right. the law is working perfectly.

 

[ridethecliche]

It has nothing to do with the process. Participating in protests does not give you the right to move your final exams. That's a childish move. Period. End of Story. Your professors aren't supposed to accomodate your every whim. You have no standing to comment on my or those in Allos kvetching of the system as you're not practicing in it.

No, grand juries are not supposed to determine that. Grand juries are supposed to determine if there was PROBABLE CAUSE that the person did it.

Yeah, is that why the hashtag was WhiteCoatsBlackLives? I can see the love for those of middle eastern, asian, hispanic descent right there. I'm sure the general public will love it. Oh wait, they don't. It may not be right but it will be what future patients believe.

When I was at Albany, I was told that the administration works with students and that many students had exams moved for things like getting married. Should they not have the 'right' to move final exams?

Or perhaps, part of becoming a law student is to be part of legal events and landscape, I think certain schools would see this as part of their mission. I'm not sure, but I think schools that push primary care would support students that were protesting their states decision to not join in with the ACA if it meant that disenfranchised patients would get coverage they never had. I see a role of physicians and future physicians here, you might not. That doesn't make you the arbiter. The school will determine if they should or shot not get exams moved. Many professors were involved as well both in the white coat ceremony and in the law school events.

Again, people that know far more than I do about law have written that the purpose of a grand jury is to raise questions and not to try to answer them. That is not what happened in either of these cases, instead the prosecutor used the grand jury more like a one sided trial. There is no defense in a grand jury. That is part of the problem when it is used in this fashion. There were no counterpoints to the evidence presented. People are upset about this because it is incredibly important especially when many departments around the country have a history of brutality, evidence tampering, and so on.

Serious question: Do you think that structural racism exists?

 

[DermViser]

Did I not just say that the hands up dont shoot movement evolved from the mike brown situation and you just said the moniker evolved from dorian johnson's statement who was with michael brown... Im trying to understand the difference what we just said?
what I am saying is that regardless what situation it started from, it does not end there. unless you are trying to say that in the past 50 yrs, blacks have never been victim to unwarranted police brutality.

and respect for the rule of the law? lmao that was a funny one. you mean the law that has continued to fail the black race for 100s of years? and now because a couple of decades a go a couple segregation laws were abolished now im supposed to think that the law as a black man's best interest at heart? give me a break.

but then again, a system cannot fail those whom it was never meant to protect, so I guess youre right. the law is working perfectly.

Yes, you're right. Every white cop that gets up each morning says to themselves what black kid they can kill next. Feel free to ask for your community to not have police officers. Let me know how it goes in a week. Keep making strawmen arguments, though. Easier to blow down. as you have easily done.

 

[ridethecliche]

I mean... your argument about brown, hispanic, middle eastern lives not mattering was a bit of a straw man, i.e. logical fallacy, as well. There are tons of community activist groups from all those 'races' that are pretty into what's happening right now and are rallying. Helping bring a disenfranchised group up doesn't bring everyone else down.

 

[Mad Jack]

Yes, you're right. Every white cop that gets up each morning says to themselves what black kid they can kill next. Feel free to ask for your community to not have police officers. Let me know how it goes in a week. Keep making strawmen arguments, though. Easier to blow down. as you have easily done.

In their defense, there is a good deal of research that shows officers are more likely to profile blacks, more likely to escalate their level of violence when a black perpetrator is involved, and that officers discharge firearms sooner with black versus white suspects.

As a general statement, I'd say that police, for the most part, do not have anyone's interests at heart. They just have the interests of minorities on an even lower priority than whites. My brother-in-law was a police officer, and the **** he and his friends would say would shock you. They would joke about how they would approach certain issues- say, domestic violence- and try to get the woman to state things in such a way that they could make it appear to not be domestic violence, because DV requires over a dozen pages of paperwork, while a simple noise complaint from the neighbors is a one page form. Ever known a guy that was behind the wheel while drinking, but the police let them go? Yeah, the reason they do that is because a drunk driving case requires a ****load of paperwork, and you don't want to deal with that near the end of your shift, so it's better to just let a guy possibly run someone over while drunk driving than to do your damn job. If they came upon a break in, they'd try and get the person to admit to maybe leaving a door or window unlocked, so they could downgrade it from B&E to trespassing, because one requires a full team to investigate, a bunch of time, and piles of paperwork, while the other is two pages of work and a few minutes to deal with.

Aside from doing everything they could to dodge work, they viewed the community not as something to be protected, but as a war zone filled with nothing but enemies. It was basically a power trip with a paycheck. Like, they were laughing as they recounted how they unleashed clouds of OC spray on the Puerto Rican parade because the people got just a little bit too rowdy for their taste. They just sprayed everyone within reach, indiscriminately, because they hadn't left the area fast enough for the officer's tastes.

This isn't to say that there aren't good officers out there. But the vast majority of them aren't out to serve or protect you, and do not have your best interests in mind.

 

[gshocke]

Yes, you're right. Every white cop that gets up each morning says to themselves what black kid they can kill next. Feel free to ask for your community to not have police officers. Let me know how it goes in a week. Keep making strawmen arguments, though. Easier to blow down. as you have easily done.

'every white cop....' are those the words that I used? did I even slightly imply that? did yu just pull that sh** from the sky?

I am simply saying that this country was literally built on the immoral ideas that blacks are not equal to whites, therefore can be victims of unwarranted violence and these attackers can go unpunished. ideas like these span back centuries and is deeply en-rooted in many systems in this country, especially law. many of these individuals who serve in the 'name of the law' were raised in households and school systems during a time where segregation was still legal and justified for many ridiculous reasons. So excuse me if i dont believe every action of the law, whether by a grand jury or not, is fool proof and acting in its full capacity to defend a black man like myself.

edit: in conclusion, hands up dont shoot movement is a completely justifiable movement, regardless of what the grand jury concluded.

 

[DermViser]

In their defense, there is a good deal of research that shows officers are more likely to profile blacks, more likely to escalate their level of violence when a black perpetrator is involved, and that officers discharge firearms sooner with black versus white suspects.

As a general statement, I'd say that police, for the most part, do not have anyone's interests at heart.

This isn't to say that there aren't good officers out there. But the vast majority of them aren't out to serve or protect you, and do not have your best interests in mind.

Remember that the next time you get robbed. Your interests are irrelevant. Their job is to protect the public and they do a damn good job under the circumstances. Don't like it? Create you own voluntary squad.