Doctor or Nurse?

[IceHouse]

I came across this video on youtube.
Nothing against the guy or nurses, but what is up with his introduction?
IMO, if you want to play a doctor, you go to medical school. I know several nurses who went to medical school and became physicians.

Note: no disrespect for nursing profession is intended. I have a lot of respect for what they do.....as nurses.

[YOUTUBE]DcL5bHGh7AE[/YOUTUBE]

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[Kj615]

I see that all the time. Better get use to it. Join your state medical organization or specialty organization if you will and help put a halt to this madness. Do you know Dr. Nurses dermatology residency program is in existence? Never mind, it appears the program went under. Sorry, off topic.

 

[SpecterGT260]

Which states have doctorate nursing degrees? What are the limits professionally?

 

[loveoforganic]

i am currently a senior in the nursing program at the University of Saint Francis in Fort Wayne Indiana

Did he also make this video while he was still a student? 😕 Honestly, while I'm not a fan of DNP education as is, he doesn't seem to hide the fact that he's a nurse much, in spite of the introduction. Would have more issue with it if he's using the doctor title as a student.

 

[Kj615]

Did he also make this video while he was still a student? 😕 Honestly, while I'm not a fan of DNP education as is, he doesn't seem to hide the fact that he's a nurse much, in spite of the introduction. Would have more issue with it if he's using the doctor title as a student.

You are missing the point. Allow me to tear your skull/brain open and spite in common sense. The fact is, DNP introducing self as doctor so and so confuses patients. It shouldn't be permitted in clinical practice. MD/DO should be only allow to use the doctor so and so title in clinical practice. I know some would argue that he's on Utube. It doesn't matter.

 

[Coffee Machine]

Did he also make this video while he was still a student? 😕 Honestly, while I'm not a fan of DNP education as is, he doesn't seem to hide the fact that he's a nurse much, in spite of the introduction. Would have more issue with it if he's using the doctor title as a student.

Honestly he seems a lot like some of the pre-med douchebags I come into contact with on a daily basis, but he's a nursing student instead. I could definitely see some of the know-it-all pre-meds dressing up like a doctor (while sitting alone in their apartment) and talking about some random topic and posting it to youtube.

And anyway, who the hell posts a video like that? He's clearly reading from a book or review manual. What's even the point of having him read it to you?

 

[Kj615]

The tube ownership anyone? Let join force and pull the cotton down. Oh, **** Google owns it. Oh, Boy. They're taking over the World and are profit driven.

 

[JackShephard MD]

I think this is somewhat of a problem.

It is poor form to be deceptive and say "I'm a doctor" making people falsely believe you are a physician. With that said, I don't think it's a huge issue. Hospitals should clearly show individuals credentials on their badge. Another option would be using the term physician instead of doctor, as everyone is making doctorate degrees now. Soon there will be technicians with doctorates.

 

[SpecterGT260]

Did he also make this video while he was still a student? 😕 Honestly, while I'm not a fan of DNP education as is, he doesn't seem to hide the fact that he's a nurse much, in spite of the introduction. Would have more issue with it if he's using the doctor title as a student.

what exactly are you quoting? was that in the vid? time stamp? i heard nurse practitioner at the front of the vid, not student

 

[Coffee Machine]

what exactly are you quoting? was that in the vid? time stamp? i heard nurse practitioner at the front of the vid, not student

It's in the comments section of the video. Makes this video even dumber.

 

[loveoforganic]

You are missing the point. Allow me to tear your skull/brain open and spite in common sense. The fact is, DNP introducing self as doctor so and so confuses patients. It shouldn't be permitted in clinical practice. MD/DO should be only allow to use the doctor so and so title in clinical practice. I know some would argue that he's on Utube. It doesn't matter.

Ha, thank you for the education, but I have read extensively through the primary lit about this and don't need my opinions to be spoon fed to me 😉

 

[loveoforganic]

You are missing the point. Allow me to tear your skull/brain open and spite in common sense. The fact is, DNP introducing self as doctor so and so confuses patients. It shouldn't be permitted in clinical practice. MD/DO should be only allow to use the doctor so and so title in clinical practice. I know some would argue that he's on Utube. It doesn't matter.

Ha, thank you for the education, but I have read extensively about this and don't need my opinions to be spoon fed to me 😉

Also, yes, youtube makes a difference.

 

[Kj615]

I think this is somewhat of a problem.

It is poor form to be deceptive and say "I'm a doctor" making people falsely believe you are a physician. With that said, I don't think it's a huge issue. Hospitals should clearly show individuals credentials on their badge. Another option would be using the term physician instead of doctor, as everyone is making doctorate degrees now. Soon there will be technicians with doctorates.

Sorry, but there shouldn't be an option. In my book, the viable and most likely to be only effective option is, if you're not an MD/DO, do not introduce yourself as Dr. so and so. Utilizing both I am a doctor if one is a PhD, DNP, DPT vs I'm a physician (MD/DO) in clinical practice is very confusing among patients. This is America and we don't like change. If you understand what I mean. O.K. Let me rephrase it. Been called Dr. so and do in clinical practice is ancient and we must stick to it.

 

[SpecterGT260]

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/spite

😕

can you teach through malicious intent?

 

[loveoforganic]

Sorry, but there shouldn't be an option. In my book, the viable and most likely to be only effective option is, if you're not an MD/DO, do not introduce yourself as Dr. so and so. Utilizing both I am a doctor if one is a PhD, DNP, DPT vs I'm a physician (MD/DO) in clinical practice is very confusing among patients. This is America and we don't like change. If you understand what I mean. O.K. Let me rephrase it. Been called Dr. so and do in clinical practice is ancient and we must stick to it.

You're going to have quite an uphill fight against all those psychologists, dentists, and ODs

 

[SpecterGT260]

I kinda tend to side with him, though.... especially in the clinical setting. it implies physician. im not going to split hairs so I would support a movement that said "fine! you want "doctor"??? then we are all gunna go with physician (or some other separate title)".. im just a little leery of a program that gives out doctorates after 3 years of study. even the 4 years for MD/DO is pushing it, except the pace is unmatched in any other pre-profession, and then there is residency before we are actually official. a 7 year process total for anyone interested.... which is only slightly higher than most PhD programs anymore.

don't get me wrong, I love many of the supporting healthcare provider roles and think we need them. but there is (IMO) a critical thinking difference between a masters level and a doctorate level, and many mid-level practitioners strike me as masters material. We had a PhD in public health give us a lecture and our class tore the poor girl apart with questions..... but honestly as a PhD she should have a strong enough handle on the material that the "hmmm I wonder if" sorts of questions given by first year med students shouldnt floor her. It's anecdotal, I know, but im just giving an example of my point. Masters level = having and understanding someone else's material. doctorate level = really making the material your own and the ability to forge new ground. Working by protocols due to regulation is one thing, doing so out of an inability to work outside of them is another.... that is kind of what I am getting at. seems like the colloquial use of "doctor" as "healer" has blurred the lines between "doctor" and "physician"

 

[dr zaius]

If they want the responsibility that comes along with the title of doctor with the main connotation of the title being HEY, I'M A PHYSICIAN, then by all means go for it. Maybe they can do just as well in some settings, but down the line if it comes out that they're hurting patients they can't shift the blame to the mean old rich physicians who didn't oversee the poor widdle caring nurses who want the best for everyone and free puppies for all.

 

[loveoforganic]

I kinda tend to side with him, though.... especially in the clinical setting. it implies physician. im not going to split hairs so I would support a movement that said "fine! you want "doctor"??? then we are all gunna go with physician (or some other separate title)".. im just a little leery of a program that gives out doctorates after 3 years of study. even the 4 years for MD/DO is pushing it, except the pace is unmatched in any other pre-profession, and then there is residency before we are actually official. a 7 year process total for anyone interested.... which is only slightly higher than most PhD programs anymore.

don't get me wrong, I love many of the supporting healthcare provider roles and think we need them. but there is (IMO) a critical thinking difference between a masters level and a doctorate level, and many mid-level practitioners strike me as masters material. We had a PhD in public health give us a lecture and our class tore the poor girl apart with questions..... but honestly as a PhD she should have a strong enough handle on the material that the "hmmm I wonder if" sorts of questions given by first year med students shouldnt floor her. It's anecdotal, I know, but im just giving an example of my point. Masters level = having and understanding someone else's material. doctorate level = really making the material your own and the ability to forge new ground. Working by protocols due to regulation is one thing, doing so out of an inability to work outside of them is another.... that is kind of what I am getting at. seems like the colloquial use of "doctor" as "healer" has blurred the lines between "doctor" and "physician"

It's 7 years to possible board certification, not 7 years to technically be able to practice independently (albeit not finishing residency is a pretty crappy option). It does seem that physician education is easily at the top as far as standardization in training out of doctoral-level clinical education programs. Post-training, I think physicians are also toward the top in self-regulation. Dentists/pods are probably tied or very close in both. Psychology is looser (on the whole), but I think the majority of clinical psych programs produce competent independent practitioners. Public health isn't a clinical degree, and it is essentially without biomedical education. You were pretty vague about what you were asking about that you feel a public health phd should be knowledgeable of, and public health offers both general and specialized training routes.

As far as DNP, I, again, think it's crap. It isn't a clinical degree and the requirements are sparse.

If they want the responsibility that comes along with the title of doctor with the main connotation of the title being HEY, I'M A PHYSICIAN, then by all means go for it. Maybe they can do just as well in some settings, but down the line if it comes out that they're hurting patients they can't shift the blame to the mean old rich physicians who didn't oversee the poor widdle caring nurses who want the best for everyone and free puppies for all.

👍. I think, eventually, malpractice rates should provide a gauge of new independent practitioners. I would say reimbursement rates for other practitioners relative to physicians should eventually provide some measure of efficacy of care, but to my knowledge, some wacky things still get reimbursed, so not so sure about that. It would be nice if quality studies could be produced, but the best to my knowledge is the anesthesia care team vs independent physician vs independent crna study, and even that, while producing much more expectable results than the nurse-funded studies, was still biased in the set up toward demonstrating equal competency

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At any rate, I think a fight to get physicians as the sole "doctor" in clinical settings is an fight with too much going against it. A push for all introductions to be followed by an established explanation of role in treatment is a much more feasible avenue to pursue.

 

[upright]

I bet his parents and boyfriend are proud.

 

[SpecterGT260]

It's 7 years to possible board certification, not 7 years to technically be able to practice independently (albeit not finishing residency is a pretty crappy option). It does seem that physician education is easily at the top as far as standardization in training out of doctoral-level clinical education programs. Post-training, I think physicians are also toward the top in self-regulation. Dentists/pods are probably tied or very close in both. Psychology is looser (on the whole), but I think the majority of clinical psych programs produce competent independent practitioners. Public health isn't a clinical degree, and it is essentially without biomedical education. You were pretty vague about what you were asking about that you feel a public health phd should be knowledgeable of, and public health offers both general and specialized training routes.



👍. I think, eventually, malpractice rates should provide a gauge of new independent practitioners. I would say reimbursement rates for other practitioners relative to physicians should eventually provide some measure of efficacy of care, but to my knowledge, some wacky things still get reimbursed, so not so sure about that. It would be nice if quality studies could be produced, but the best to my knowledge is the anesthesia care team vs independent physician vs independent crna study, and even that, while producing much more expectable results than the nurse-funded studies, was still biased in the set up toward demonstrating equal competency

-------

At any rate, I think a fight to get physicians as the sole "doctor" in clinical settings is an fight with too much going against it. A push for all introductions to be followed by an established explanation of role in treatment is a much more feasible avenue to pursue.

it was just an example, not specific to public health. it was more meant as a clarification on what i meant by the difference in critical thinking. (this may step on some toes....) I've always had bad luck with primary care PA's, and IMO it is because they lack the foundational education (wide base with subsequent narrowing) be be effective in primary care. The thought processes ive seen are less 3-dimensional (in an abstract sense) and much more linear. non-standard cases get missed at an alarming rate IMO. if we are restricting the conversation to the clinical setting - this is what separates a masters vs doctorate level healthcare provider.

 

[Shnurek]

I bet his parents and boyfriend are proud.

lmaoo

 

[SoundofSilver]

It's pretty easy, the only people introducing themselves as doctors in a clinical setting should be people with an MD or DO degree.

When someone introduces themselves as a doctor in a clinical setting this implies that they are a physician. In my opinion, it's deceptive for DNPs, etc. to imply that they are physicians (even if they don't intentionally mean to). This only serves to confuse and mislead patients.

 

[SpecterGT260]

It's pretty easy, the only people introducing themselves as doctors in a clinical setting should be people with an MD or DO degree.

When someone introduces themselves as a doctor in a clinical setting this implies that they are a physician. In my opinion, it's deceptive for DNPs, etc. to imply that they are physicians (even if they don't intentionally mean to). This only serves to confuse and mislead patients.

given the controversy..... I think any who do make the conscious decision to refer to themselves in that way. I cant really envision a NP who just didnt realize...

 

[loveoforganic]

it was just an example, not specific to public health. it was more meant as a clarification on what i meant by the difference in critical thinking. (this may step on some toes....) I've always had bad luck with primary care PA's, and IMO it is because they lack the foundational education (wide base with subsequent narrowing) be be effective in primary care. The thought processes ive seen are less 3-dimensional (in an abstract sense) and much more linear. non-standard cases get missed at an alarming rate IMO. if we are restricting the conversation to the clinical setting - this is what separates a masters vs doctorate level healthcare provider.

Poor choice of examples, again, since PA's aren't independent practitioners, but at any rate, I agree with the rest of what you're saying. It seems like a fairly predictable outcome of greater knowledge of pathophysiological bases of disease + greater knowledge of disease + generally higher IQ of the population (what exactly IQ should measure and how it should be done is up for debate, but I think there's enough evidence to suggest, as currently measured, that it correlates to some degree with critical thinking and increased ability to retain information).

 

[SpecterGT260]

lol and the argument is that NP's SHOULDNT be independent practitioners (and they are not in many states and many circumstances). I think the example is fine 😉

 

[loveoforganic]

But they receive education that is supposedly qualitatively or quantitatively different that allows them to do so comparably safely and efficaciously to physicians, and with more hugs. 😉 Supposedly

 

[Houmd]

1. This guy is blindly reading something he doesn't actually understand....gotta love blind memorization/reading. Also, it seems as though he assumes post-step is the definition of acute glomerulonephritis

2. He claims that Labetolol only blocks beta receptors...

3. Nice coat and steth to try and make urself look smarter/professional. Maybe next time not wear a college t-shirt under that coat and not have a godfather poster in the background

 

[SpecterGT260]

But they receive education that is supposedly qualitatively or quantitatively different that allows them to do so comparably safely and efficaciously to physicians, and with more hugs. 😉 Supposedly

yep

 

[SpecterGT260]

1. This guy is blindly reading something he doesn't actually understand....gotta love blind memorization/reading. Also, it seems as though he assumes post-step is the definition of acute glomerulonephritis

2. He claims that Labetolol only blocks beta receptors...

3. Nice coat and steth to try and make urself look smarter/professional. Maybe next time not wear a college t-shirt under that coat and not have a godfather poster in the background

ECHOEchoechoecho......

 

[officedepot]

.

 

[Kj615]

You're going to have quite an uphill fight against all those psychologists, dentists, and ODs

...it's o.k as a psychologist/dentist and ODs to introduce self as am dr. smith but not ok for DNP, DPT, DHSc (PAs) to introduce self to patients in clinical practice. that's what i meant.

 

[JP2740]

3. Nice coat and steth to try and make urself look smarter/professional. Maybe next time not wear a college t-shirt under that coat and not have a godfather poster in the background

lmfao! Good eye!

 

[officedepot]

.

 

[Kj615]

It's pretty easy, the only people introducing themselves as doctors in a clinical setting should be people with an MD or DO degree.

When someone introduces themselves as a doctor in a clinical setting this implies that they are a physician. In my opinion, it's deceptive for DNPs, etc. to imply that they are physicians (even if they don't intentionally mean to). This only serves to confuse and mislead patients.

That's my point! Patients get confuse so easily. Imagine, by simply wearing a lab coat, most would automatically think you're the doctor (MD/DO). Now, if you throw or allow DNPs introducing themself as doctors, it's even worse.

 

[Kj615]

it's OK for a psycholgist, dentist, and OD because people for the most part understand their role and basic level and type of training. A PA or DNP in a physician's office or hospital may not be as clearly defined for the patient as the person who prescribes glasses or the one who cleans teeth/other oral care.

very true!

 

[Kj615]

Note: I mean to disrespect nurses... YOU ARE NOT DOCTORS. As a DNP you have a doctorate in "nursing". When you say "hi I'm doctor blahblah" you know that patients will interpret that as if you are a MD or DO. Look when I am a resident and if I hear a DNP or PA say anything like that I will call them out on it in private as it is disingenuous to the patient. I think DNP and PAs can take care of the simple things they do but they should not lie to a patient. I won't call them out as a student but I sure as hell will when I get my MD which I worked really hard for.

Note 2: all the DNPs and PAs I have interacted with have not referred to themselves as "doctor" to a patient. In undergrad a DNP taught an easy anatomy class I took senior year and I referred to her as "doctor" because she is a "doctor of nursing" and the title in that context is fine.

DNP are the one found to calling themself doctor. You'll never hear a PA saying that. DNP = mentality of independent practitioners and I can do what an MD/DO does even better. PA = MD-lead team and they know it, especially, older PAs with few years under their belt.

 

[dr zaius]

it's OK for a psycholgist, dentist, and OD because people for the most part understand their role and basic level and type of training. A PA or DNP in a physician's office or hospital may not be as clearly defined for the patient as the person who prescribes glasses or the one who cleans teeth/other oral care.

Absolutely.

 

[loveoforganic]

...it's o.k as a psychologist/dentist and ODs to introduce self as am dr. smith but not ok for DNP, DPT, DHSc (PAs) to introduce self to patients in clinical practice. that's what i meant.

Psychologist vs psychiatrist? OD vs ophtho? And DPT role isn't generally fairly clear? Also, dentists do in fact work in hospitals...

The roles for psychX2 and OD/ophtho are not all that clear to the public, in my opinion, and the only reason you're saying they're acceptable is because they're entrenched already. I think the whole thing is just too arbitrary. Make the elaboration of role in care a required element of practice, and it mitigates the issue.

 

[SpecterGT260]

there's a trick to keeping the arrogance level down low enough that your points are still heard.

 

[SpecterGT260]

Psychologist vs psychiatrist? OD vs ophtho? And DPT role isn't generally fairly clear?

The roles for psychX2 and OD/ophtho are not all that clear to the public, in my opinion, and the only reason you're saying they're acceptable is because they're entrenched already. I think the whole thing is just too arbitrary. Make the elaboration of role in care a required element of practice, and it mitigates the issue.

psychiatry and psychology are very different.... ive said this across a few threads a few times now. the biggest similarity is in the names themselves....

OD/ophtho are also quite different. for ophtho vision is a symptom, for OD vision is the patient

 

[Shnurek]

Guys, the American healthcare system is a huge clusterf*ck caused by over-regulation and over-legislation that causes all these stupid issues. http://www.economist.com/node/21547789

 

[loveoforganic]

there's a trick to keeping the arrogance level down low enough that your points are still heard.

Indeed, some people should work on that 😀

psychiatry and psychology are very different.... ive said this across a few threads a few times now. the biggest similarity is in the names themselves....

OD/ophtho are also quite different. for ophtho vision is a symptom, for OD vision is the patient

We're not discussing how the fields are different. We're talking about the public's knowledge of the differences between the fields

 

[SpecterGT260]

Indeed, some people should work on that 😀



We're not discussing how the fields are different. We're talking about the public's knowledge of the differences between the fields

my statement was more directed at officedepot. come in gun's a-blazin and you are just asking for a flame fest and a locked thread.

as for the bottom part of the post: then I agree with you. the public is often good and confused about what providers do. I have met people recently that did not know that DOs can prescribe drugs

 

[MossPoh]

It is setting/context specific, as well as training specific. I would have no problem with a DDS/DMD or DPM with training in surgical areas (OMFS or Surgery) introducing themselves as "Doctor" in the hospital when rounding on their patients that they performed surgery on.

For the most part, I think that introducing yourself as "Doctor" in a hospital setting has an implied meaning that you are an MD/DO. Outside of the hospital, where there aren't a crazy mix of people coming in and out of a patient's room but rather a specific destination with a known context, it is a different story.

 

[dr zaius]

ok. then I agree with you. the public is often good and confused about what providers do. I have met people recently that did not know that DOs can prescribe drugs

They can? Since when??

 

[loveoforganic]

my statement was more directed at officedepot. come in gun's a-blazin and you are just asking for a flame fest and a locked thread.

as for the bottom part of the post: then I agree with you. the public is often good and confused about what providers do. I have met people recently that did not know that DOs can prescribe drugs

Ah ok, I wasn't sure 🙂 I have thick skin though. I would wager solid money that >75% of the public has no association between DO and physician.

It is setting/context specific, as well as training specific. I would have no problem with a DDS/DMD or DPM with training in surgical areas (OMFS or Surgery) introducing themselves as "Doctor" in the hospital when rounding on their patients that they performed surgery on.

For the most part, I think that introducing yourself as "Doctor" in a hospital setting has an implied meaning that you are an MD/DO. Outside of the hospital, where there aren't a crazy mix of people coming in and out of a patient's room but rather a specific destination with a known context, it is a different story.

I agree with you. I think that doctor generally implies physician. I do not think the push for DNP's existence or the use of "doctor" by DNPs in clinical settings is innocent (at least, in large part, and yes that is disturbing). But, again, I think legislation to prevent it would cut too widely against other providers, and debates concerning such legislation would center on "why can they have it but not us?" I think whether the doctorate is clinically focused is a good distinction to allow vs disallow. And I think there still needs to be a requirement to elaborate upon role of provider. It's just good practice, regardless.

 

[SpecterGT260]

no distinction? or no knowledge? my experience has taught me that the default is MD and unless you are paying attention to name badges or are a pre-med with low GPA you may not be aware of what a DO is unless you are one.


hospitals all over have started using those big ass title badges though. as irritating as I thought they were originally it sure does solve this issue.
call urself whatever you like..... you will just look very strange when it says "nurse" below your name

 

[Kj615]

Psychologist vs psychiatrist? OD vs ophtho? And DPT role isn't generally fairly clear? Also, dentists do in fact work in hospitals...

The roles for psychX2 and OD/ophtho are not all that clear to the public, in my opinion, and the only reason you're saying they're acceptable is because they're entrenched already. I think the whole thing is just too arbitrary. Make the elaboration of role in care a required element of practice, and it mitigates the issue.

...just keep it simple. you're pulling on my hair. yes, DPT role are clearly define. no room for distraction. redirect your focus on putting a halt on DNP introducing themself as the doctor. how often do you co-manage pt with PhD (Psychologist or psychiatrist or OD)? In my record, not very often. However, you'll co-manage a patient more often with NP (DNP). Now, imagine, you're co-managing a patient with a DNP and s/he get paged over head as Dr. James Smith (DNP) in the hospital setting? I will be upset? Why, because, this would confuses the patients. You'll look as if you're playing a supportive role and the DNP are the real doc? Does that make sense? Never mind. Am done! where's my coffee.

 

[Shnurek]

This is true, I worked with a DO that was a fellowship trained vascular surgeon. Granny every now and then would ask what the heck is a DO? And he would have to explain for the millionth time: "Its just like an MD except I did a few extra classes to do with bones."

 

[loveoforganic]

no distinction? or no knowledge? my experience has taught me that the default is MD and unless you are paying attention to name badges or are a pre-med with low GPA you may not be aware of what a DO is unless you are one.


hospitals all over have started using those big ass title badges though. as irritating as I thought they were originally it sure does solve this issue.
call urself whatever you like..... you will just look very strange when it says "nurse" below your name

Let's say multiple choice

DO's are most similar to:

A) Medical doctors
B) Chiropractors
C) Physical therapists
D) Acupuncturists

Given that, I'd say <40% correct rate. At least in the south, which is where my experience is. DO's do have less exposure here, so my perception could be colored by that.

And I'm a big fan of the obnoxious name badges