Doctor Respect

[NipponMD]

Which doctor specialties are the specialties that are respected by everyone?

I think they are 1) neurosurgery and 2) cardiothoracic surgery.

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[Chinorean]

Which doctor specialties are the specialties that are respected by everyone?

I think they are 1) neurosurgery and 2) cardiothoracic surgery.

Eh? I think all specialties get respect. Even fields like dermatology and plastic surgery that are linked to cosmetic surgery treat serious problems and require great skill.

 

[Wallachia]

Eh? I think all specialties get respect. Even fields like dermatology and plastic surgery that are linked to cosmetic surgery treat serious problems and require great skill.

i don't think good internists and fp's get enough respect

 

[NonTradMed]

It depends on who you talk to: to a high school dropout, all doctors are the same and they typically give them the same respect regardless of difficulty of residency training. To someone more educated, they will probably respect someone with 'surgeon' in their job title. To med students, probably people who've matched into hard to get into residencies such as rad or plastics.

 

[NipponMD]

If I were to explain American medical culture, I would probably say:

In America, there are some specialties that are generally well respected. These tend to be surgical specialties. They tend to be well respected by both the community (patients) and by other doctors (although surgeons have a reputation for being arrogant - they aren't necessarily LIKED, but they are generally RESPECTED).

Probably the most respected specialty is brain surgery. There is even a phrase in English, "It's not brain surgery." It is used when one wants to convey that something is difficult but not impossibly difficult like brain surgery). This respect translates into salary. Brain surgeons and cardiothoracic surgeons make more money than any other specialty and it is very very difficult to become a brain surgeon both in terms of time and competition to get into a program. If someone from the public hears that a person is a brain surgeon, they are likely to say "Wow! A brain surgeon! You must be smart!"

In a more general way, doctors are respected by the public (as a profession). In years past, doctors were very respected. Patients used to do whatever the doctor said and believe everything they said. In recent years, doctors are becoming less respected in America.

Do you agree with the above? How would you add/revise?

 

[toofache32]

...This respect translates into salary. Brain surgeons and cardiothoracic surgeons make more money than any other specialty...

Salary has nothing to do with "respect." Where did you get this idea? And cardiothoracic surgery is there for the taking...the fellowships are supposedly having trouble filling all their spots.

 

[CTSballer11]

Salary has nothing to do with "respect." Where did you get this idea? And cardiothoracic surgery is there for the taking...the fellowships are supposedly having trouble filling all their spots.

That is very true, but the general public probably has no idea what a fellowship is.

 

[NonTradMed]

Salary has nothing to do with "respect." Where did you get this idea? And cardiothoracic surgery is there for the taking...the fellowships are supposedly having trouble filling all their spots.

Well, I wouldn't say salary has nothing to do with respect. Jobs which are highly respected tend to be highly salaried.....those jobs may not be highly appreciated (CEOs, lawyers), but nonetheless, people are going to think you were one smart cookie for having made so much money.

 

[ForbiddenComma]

There is even a phrase in English, "It's not brain surgery."

Wasn't this a bit on Seinfeld?

 

[Faebinder]

That is very true, but the general public probably has no idea what a fellowship is.

That really varies... I have been in a hospital where the patient would ask the attending if he was a fellow or not because they don't want a fellow plastic surgeon working on them.... heh.. cracked me up too cause the attending was telling me it was a common occurance.

 

[Jack Daniel]

... In recent years, doctors are becoming less respected in America...

My opinion is that this is not limited to physicians. I think Americans, in general, respect everyone less.

 

[SuperTrooper]

Which doctor specialties are the specialties that are respected by everyone?

I think they are 1) neurosurgery and 2) cardiothoracic surgery.

The most respected doctors are those that work in rural, severely underserved areas. This includes both GPs and specialists.

 

[zenman]

I have the most respect for the person who can practice when the power goes out.

Internationally known neurosurgeon on trip in Peruvian jungle talking with Shaman:

Neurosurgeon: And what do you do?

Shaman: Well doctor, I have my flock of Lamas and I raise a little bit of corn and I do a little bit of healing. What do you do, doctor?

Neurosurgeon: I will cut open a man’s head and saw through the bone and pull out a tumor the size of a walnut, and throw it away and then sew their head back up and that man will live. Can you do that?

Shaman: No doctor, I can’t do that.

Neurosurgeon: Well, what do you do then?

Shaman: Well doctor, if someone dies and it’s not their time yet, I can follow their soul through the first, the second and the third level of the spirit world and right before they arrive back home I can catch it the way one catches a butterfly and bring it back and blow it back into them and they will live. Can you do that?

 

[Faebinder]

I have the most respect for the person who can practice when the power goes out.

Internationally known neurosurgeon on trip in Peruvian jungle talking with Shaman:

Neurosurgeon: And what do you do?

Shaman: Well doctor, I have my flock of Lamas and I raise a little bit of corn and I do a little bit of healing. What do you do, doctor?

Neurosurgeon: I will cut open a man’s head and saw through the bone and pull out a tumor the size of a walnut, and throw it away and then sew their head back up and that man will live. Can you do that?

Shaman: No doctor, I can’t do that.

Neurosurgeon: Well, what do you do then?

Shaman: Well doctor, if someone dies and it’s not their time yet, I can follow their soul through the first, the second and the third level of the spirit world and right before they arrive back home I can catch it the way one catches a butterfly and bring it back and blow it back into them and they will live. Can you do that?

I SWEAR I had a surgery attending that used to compared neurosurgeons to shamans..... you call them for a consult on a head-trauma-orwhatever.... they come... look at the CT scan of the first patient.... go to the patient, put their hand on their head...give it a thought... shake their head.. NO..... move to the next patient... look at the CT scan....put the hand on the head... think a little.... NO..... move to the third patient... look at the CT scan... put the hand on the head... think a little... nod their head... YES!

 

[8744]

I have the most respect for the person who can practice when the power goes out.

Internationally known neurosurgeon on trip in Peruvian jungle talking with Shaman:

Neurosurgeon: And what do you do?

Shaman: Well doctor, I have my flock of Lamas and I raise a little bit of corn and I do a little bit of healing. What do you do, doctor?

Neurosurgeon: I will cut open a man’s head and saw through the bone and pull out a tumor the size of a walnut, and throw it away and then sew their head back up and that man will live. Can you do that?

Shaman: No doctor, I can’t do that.

Neurosurgeon: Well, what do you do then?

Shaman: Well doctor, if someone dies and it’s not their time yet, I can follow their soul through the first, the second and the third level of the spirit world and right before they arrive back home I can catch it the way one catches a butterfly and bring it back and blow it back into them and they will live. Can you do that?

The Shaman is an idiot.

 

[zenman]

The Shaman is an idiot.

Are you aware of the number of physicians, psychologists, other healthcare professionals that are studying with shamans?

 

[Margaritaville]

Are you aware of the number of physicians, psychologists, other healthcare professionals that are studying with shamans?

Can't say I blame them...it's smooth and enjoyable!

 

[zenman]

Can't say I blame them...it's smooth and enjoyable!

LOL, haven't seen that one. But I didn't think you studied beer; rather you experienced it!

 

[8744]

Are you aware of the number of physicians, psychologists, other healthcare professionals that are studying with shamans?

They're idiots too.

Come on, Zenman. You can't be serious. I know that it is fashionable to denigrate the modern world while holding up primative cultures as some kind of ideal but this outlook is silly.

The neurosurgeon does actually remove tumors that compress the brain saving the patient's life either in the short term (as in a glioblastoma that will recur) or in the long term (when he removes non-malignant tumors). The Shaman can delve into the spirit world and make friends with Brother Wolf and Sister Moon until the buffalo come strolling home with absolutely no effect, unless of course it is a placebo effect which is not that effective for surgical problems.

Hey. The aboriginal people of the world have practically nothing to teach us about anything. It is only in the self-loathing western world where somebody aspiring towards a career in medicine would take advice from a guy smeared in Wallabee droppings.

I bet if I brought a Christian faith-healer or snake handler into the PICU you'd roll your eyes and call me an idiot. What's the difference?

 

[zenman]

They're idiots too.

Come on, Zenman. You can't be serious. I know that it is fashionable to denigrate the modern world while holding up primative cultures as some kind of ideal but this outlook is silly.

“To be a good doctor you have to be a compassionate chameleon, a shape shifter - a shaman. Even if your adaptation to your patients' world happens at an unconscious level you should always work within their system of ideas, never against it.”...Cecil Helman family practitioner 27 years

“Shamanism is and has been the most widely practiced type of medicine on the planet, particularly for serious illness. The shamans are the ones who are said to understand, in a spiritual sense, the nexus of the mind, the body, the soul. The shamans, performing the difficult tasks of seeking the connectedness of all things and protecting the souls of the sick and dying, have traditionally been used as a treatment of the last resort”… Jeanne Achterberg, Ph.D.

“When I first started to read about the way the Shaman healers worked I realized that we in modern medicine had cut out a very important component to our healing system. As I began my research I discovered that in the middle of the 15th and 16th century we began to separate the concept that diseases of the body had nothing to do with the mind. Medicine became a healing of the physical ailments and it ignored the role that the psyche played on health.

The Shaman taught me that there is no separation and that all components of energy those within and those without the body are important in our health. When you think about how far we have come in the last two decades, most agree that there is a strong mind-body link that can create psychosomatic illness. The Shaman have the secret of how to create psychosomatic health, by treating the energetic body. The missing component is to understand that we are energetic bodies. The only way to Perfect Health is through Energy Medicine.”… Bob Willix, M.D. (who quit doing CABGs after doing thousands of them)

Just for fun, read Shaman, Healer, Sage by Alberto Villoldo, Ph.D. (psychologist and medical anthropologist). Even Fred Alan Wolf, a physicist, who studies with shamans, could explain their work in scientific terms. I’m currently studying with Alberto and in class a few weeks ago partnered up with an MD/Ph.D. (molecular biologist) who said he and many of his peers were just sick of western medicine and not seeing any changes in patients. I’ve got 32 years in nursing and I’m not happy either. (Just remembered I must contact UAB and tell them I’m dropping out of nurse practitioner school!) I see no need for further study of a reductionistic modality that is not even up with the current sciences and is a failure with chronic conditions.

The neurosurgeon does actually remove tumors that compress the brain saving the patient's life either in the short term (as in a glioblastoma that will recur) or in the long term (when he removes non-malignant tumors).

But he has to literally cut into a person to do it, LOL!

The Shaman can delve into the spirit world and make friends with Brother Wolf and Sister Moon until the buffalo come strolling home with absolutely no effect, unless of course it is a placebo effect which is not that effective for surgical problems.

Surgery...you mean as in the New England Journal of Medicine article about research showing that sham knee surgery worked as well as the real thing?

Hey. The aboriginal people of the world have practically nothing to teach us about anything. It is only in the self-loathing western world where somebody aspiring towards a career in medicine would take advice from a guy smeared in Wallabee droppings.

Shamanism is the oldest and most widespread method of healing with the imagination…and you should know the benefits of imagery as a diagnostic and therapeutic tool. Think about it, shamans were thousands of years ahead of Candace Pert. I think they could tell you something!

I bet if I brought a Christian faith-healer or snake handler into the PICU you'd roll your eyes and call me an idiot. What's the difference?

I'd insist on one, LOL! ..."healers can cure 70 percent of individuals-a statistic that appears far better than the average drug." William Nolen, M.D.

 

[astrife]

are you kidding me?

 

[Happy613]

I have the most respect for the person who can practice when the power goes out.

Internationally known neurosurgeon on trip in Peruvian jungle talking with Shaman:

Neurosurgeon: And what do you do?

Shaman: Well doctor, I have my flock of Lamas and I raise a little bit of corn and I do a little bit of healing. What do you do, doctor?

Neurosurgeon: I will cut open a man’s head and saw through the bone and pull out a tumor the size of a walnut, and throw it away and then sew their head back up and that man will live. Can you do that?

Shaman: No doctor, I can’t do that.

Neurosurgeon: Well, what do you do then?

Shaman: Well doctor, if someone dies and it’s not their time yet, I can follow their soul through the first, the second and the third level of the spirit world and right before they arrive back home I can catch it the way one catches a butterfly and bring it back and blow it back into them and they will live. Can you do that?

I am down with the shamans.

 

[Vox Animo]

"You know if you kill a man in the dead of winter, steam will rise from the body. Native Americans used to think it was the soul escaping."


-Ed O'neal

 

[footcramp]

shamans are useful in places where your neighbors are still using leaves to wipe stool off their bottom, walk barefoot, and drink water from a dirty pond. they have no place in the civilized world.

 

[zenman]

shamans are useful in places where your neighbors are still using leaves to wipe stool off their bottom, walk barefoot, and drink water from a dirty pond. they have no place in the civilized world.

You just have a lack of knowledge on how the mind-body works.

 

[San_Juan_Sun]

You just have a lack of knowledge on how the mind-body works.

Zenman is absolutely correct. They have no place in the uncivilized world either.

 

[zenman]

Zenman is absolutely correct. They have no place in the uncivilized world either.

Lack of reading comprehension here.

 

[San_Juan_Sun]

Lack of reading comprehension here.

Perhaps someone's sarcasm detector needs a tune-up. No worries though.

 

[zenman]

Perhaps someone's sarcasm detector needs a tune-up. No worries though.

It helps if one writes clearly...but no problem.

 

[NipponMD]

I apologize for seeming to be critical, but after all that is what we the physicians do to our colleagues and future colleagues like yourself for the betterment of our profession.

In America, we as a society try not to stereotype, as that is what often get us in trouble, especially when dealing with tricky issues like racism for example. You need to be careful when you make a statement like, “there are specialties that are generally well respected.” What you are implying by making a statement as such is that there are specialties that are not well respected, and that is not the case at all. Even if you say that there are subspecialties that are more respected than others, I still have to disagree with that. In my mind, respect is earned for how well you do your job, regardless of “what” you do. You make a comment about how surgeons are also often thought of as arrogant(which I also disagree with), yet you say that they are still well respected. I work with a cardio-thoracic surgeon, who happened to have pioneered neonatal cardiac transplantation back in the 80’s, and he once gave a commencement speech at our medical school graduation saying that nobody appreciate an arrogant doctor, and the point was well taken by many. I am not sure how a group of people can earn respect with having a reputation for being arrogant, unless your definition of the word “respect” is drastically different from what most people are used to.

I can assure you that it is not the degree of respect that the neurosurgeons tend to get (according to you) that translates to higher salary. The endless complexity of what the neurosurgeons do daily dictate that more expensive and sophisticated equipments and more number of related health care workers are needed to provide what is considered a standard of care. Also, relatively higher risk that they are force to take daily directly translates to higher malpractice insurance premium, and ultimately they require higher level of income to cover themselves.

Also, I wouldn’t call neurosurgeons “brain surgeons.” They will get pissed at you.

You are correct in that neurosurgery and surgical residencies are more competitive in comparison to others, but with guts and perseverance, and with reasonable board scores, and if you don’t mind relocating to any parts of the country, you will most likely find a spot in the field of your choice although it may take you longer than once anticipated.

I would like to think that we the physicians are looked upon by people in other line of work because we tirelessly sacrifice ourselves for the well-being of others, not because of our so-called higher level of intelligence or the amount of money we are said to make. Just remember that there are a lot of smart people out there that act like a complete *****. Don’t become one of those for the sake of our profession.

I dearly hope that as a medical student, you will choose the specialty of your choice not based on how much respect you think that goes with your line of work, but based on what you are good at, and on which subset of patients you feel the most compassion for. What envision for yourself is entirely secondary. It is the patients that matters the most.

 

[JHU1984]

The Shaman is an idiot.

Great to see that one of my future colleagues is so objective in his treatment of different patient populations and cultures. Do I believe shamanism works? Absolutely not…but that does not make someone who does believe in it an idiot. Geez.

 

[8744]

Great to see that one of my future colleagues is so objective in his treatment of different patient populations and cultures. Do I believe shamanism works? Absolutely not…but that does not make someone who does believe in it an idiot. Geez.

Let me rephrase it: People who believe that some guy shaking a goat bladder or "the bones" over a patient is going to do anything are idiots. The Shaman, as a product of his culture, doesn't know any better. You, however do and presumably we have gotten beyond the belief that evil spirits cause disease.

How's that?

Besides, I don't make a fetish out of being open-minded. Some cultural practices are ridiculous. Certainly I will never interfere with anybody's cultural traditions because, and this might be my libertarian streak, I just don't care. On the other hand I'm not going suck-up to every half-baked politically correct fad just because it originates from somewhere other than the West. There's a reason people live in jungles with lizard bones in their noses.

Think about it.

P. Bear, MD
Emergency Medicine Resident
No, I Will Not Prescribe Tiger Penis

 

[docB]

Let me rephrase it: People who believe that some guy shaking a goat bladder or "the bones" over a patient is going to do anything are idiots. The Shaman, as a product of his culture, doesn't know any better. You, however do and presumably we have gotten beyond the belief that evil spirits cause disease.

How's that?

Besides, I don't make a fetish out of being open-minded. Some cultural practices are ridiculous. Certainly I will never interfere with anybody's cultural traditions because, and this might be my libertarian streak, I just don't care. On the other hand I'm not going suck-up to every half-baked politically correct fad just because it originates from somewhere other than the West. There's a reason people live in jungles with lizard bones in their noses.

Think about it.

P. Bear, MD
Emergency Medicine Resident
No, I Will Not Prescribe Tiger Penis

Don't you know that all non western ideas are fundamentally and morally superior to those of the decadent first world? Jeez, it's almost like we never even had the SDS movement of the 60s. You need to open you mind, broaden your horizons, light up some patchouli incense and become one with something or other. Otherwise you'll never appreciate multicultural gems such as clitorectomy, foot binding, coining, cupping, human sacrifice, cannibalism and so on.

 

[QuikClot]

All cultures have their good points and their bad points, and cultural pratices should not be thought to be above criticism because they originate in a non-Western society. But when you say "This is why they are in the jungle," you are really crossing the line into something else.

David Mamet once said we should not judge cultures according to the magnitude of the crimes they have been powerless to commit. I agree with that. Equally, we should not delude ourselves that the West got to where it is because it has fewer irrational customs. Better-armed and better-financed does not equal better culture.

 

[8744]

All cultures have their good points and their bad points, and cultural pratices should not be thought to be above criticism because they originate in a non-Western society. But when you say "This is why they are in the jungle," you are really crossing the line into something else.

David Mamet once said we should not judge cultures according to the magnitude of the crimes they have been powerless to commit. I agree with that. Equally, we should not delude ourselves that the West got to where it is because it has fewer irrational customs. Better-armed and better-financed does not equal better culture.

Look, if you need a heart transplant of hemodialysis, something which I'll admit most people living in jungles with lizard bones in their noses don't need because they die by the age of thirty, feel free to have yer' friendly neighborhood shaman stop on by and appease the River Otter Spirit or Uhatec, the Pancreas Demon. If that's yer' cultural tradition than have at it. I will stand respectfully and look on with great interest at his ritual.

On the other hand, I'd like to see one of Zenman's shamans treat someone for septic shock. maybe the patient could have a living will or something which gives some guy in a loin-cloth first crack at him. We'll just stand around with our useless Western IV fluids and our totally ineffective First-world vasopressors and say, "Have at it, chief."

That's what I think is so bogus about all of you politically correct apologists for primitive cultures. First, you wouldn't be caught dead allowing anybody to practice that **** on you or your family. Second, many of you have never seen really sick people and can't differentiate a soft complaint like vague back pain which might respond to the placebo effect induced by waving some bloody chicken feathers from something real like...oh...let's say meningitis.

Hey, here's a thought: Are there any shaman in veterinary medicine? Probably not. Animals don't respond to placebos.

Besides, the odds of any of you encountering someone born into the tradition of shamanism is very remote. What you will encounter are FAS's (Fake Ass Shamans) like Zenman with some sort of political axe which they grind by pretending to reject Western culture.

 

[8744]

How about tiger penis and rhino horn? Those are cultural practices. Should I lobby to get these things on my hospital's formulary.


Tiger Penis 200 mg
ii dose INH BID prn Erectile Dysfunction
#10
Three refills


And then the patient changes the "10" to "100" and I get a call from the Chinese Apothecary asking me if I really meant to write him for that much tiger penis.

 

[OSUdoc08]

Which doctor specialties are the specialties that are respected by everyone?

I think they are 1) neurosurgery and 2) cardiothoracic surgery.

To non-physicians, any specialty is respected.

To physicians, whatever specialty they are in.

 

[footcramp]

Hey, here's a thought: Are there any shaman in veterinary medicine? Probably not. Animals don't respond to placebos.

well duh, that's because animals don't have souls like we do. lucky for us we were created to be awesome like god and got souls to cure us when sweet nothings are whispered in our ear (which is the soul's connection to the outside world)

 

[Vox Animo]

I once saw a shaman shake a baby. That goes against every poster i've ever read.

 

[Vox Animo]

So, in I im a Zapatista Caracole in the mountains of southern Mexico. I stop by the clinic, only an undergrad bio guy then. Women comes in saying her baby will not eat and has green diarehea (or however that is spelled). They prescribe traditional Mayan herbs along side modern medicine. Nothing works, no traditional cures. Now the guys that run the clinic, have no science background, only on the job training, but are better with working with tropical diseases that most doctors due to frequent of that type. However, all the traditional medicine in the world will not help the people in that area.

Bottom line, people with health experience aroudn the globe may have some things to teach you, and may know somethings better than doctos, but ultimatley nothing compares to the understanding of medicine and treatment offerend by modern medicine.

 

[oldManDO2009]

Look, if you need a heart transplant of hemodialysis, something which I'll admit most people living in jungles with lizard bones in their noses don't need because they die by the age of thirty, feel free to have yer' friendly neighborhood shaman stop on by and appease the River Otter Spirit or Uhatec, the Pancreas Demon. If that's yer' cultural tradition than have at it. I will stand respectfully and look on with great interest at his ritual.

On the other hand, I'd like to see one of Zenman's shamans treat someone for septic shock. maybe the patient could have a living will or something which gives some guy in a loin-cloth first crack at him. We'll just stand around with our useless Western IV fluids and our totally ineffective First-world vasopressors and say, "Have at it, chief."

That's what I think is so bogus about all of you politically correct apologists for primitive cultures. First, you wouldn't be caught dead allowing anybody to practice that **** on you or your family. Second, many of you have never seen really sick people and can't differentiate a soft complaint like vague back pain which might respond to the placebo effect induced by waving some bloody chicken feathers from something real like...oh...let's say meningitis.

Hey, here's a thought: Are there any shaman in veterinary medicine? Probably not. Animals don't respond to placebos.

Besides, the odds of any of you encountering someone born into the tradition of shamanism is very remote. What you will encounter are FAS's (Fake Ass Shamans) like Zenman with some sort of political axe which they grind by pretending to reject Western culture.

Finally, some common sense!

 

[JHU1984]

People who believe that some guy shaking a goat bladder or "the bones" over a patient is going to do anything are idiots.

I loathe few things more than people who are unwilling to accept empirical data (e.g. creationists who do not believe in the "theory" of evolution or people who wear a copper bracelet to cure their diabetes). You, however, want to throw out derogatory names to people who do not have the same access to education that you and I have. I have read many of your posts and understand that you are jaded by your experience at duke fp, but that does not mean that compassion, empathy and understanding are not important tools...even for tools.

denying that social context has anything to do with one's beliefs (or health for that matter)...that's just idiotic

a wise man told me not to argue with fools, because from a distance you can't tell who is who...you can have the last word.

(5000+ posts: those that talk the most have the least to say)

 

[zenman]

Look, if you need a heart transplant of hemodialysis, something which I'll admit most people living in jungles with lizard bones in their noses don't need because they die by the age of thirty, feel free to have yer' friendly neighborhood shaman stop on by and appease the River Otter Spirit or Uhatec, the Pancreas Demon. If that's yer' cultural tradition than have at it. I will stand respectfully and look on with great interest at his ritual.

On the other hand, I'd like to see one of Zenman's shamans treat someone for septic shock. maybe the patient could have a living will or something which gives some guy in a loin-cloth first crack at him. We'll just stand around with our useless Western IV fluids and our totally ineffective First-world vasopressors and say, "Have at it, chief."

That's what I think is so bogus about all of you politically correct apologists for primitive cultures. First, you wouldn't be caught dead allowing anybody to practice that **** on you or your family. Second, many of you have never seen really sick people and can't differentiate a soft complaint like vague back pain which might respond to the placebo effect induced by waving some bloody chicken feathers from something real like...oh...let's say meningitis.

Hey, here's a thought: Are there any shaman in veterinary medicine? Probably not. Animals don't respond to placebos.

Besides, the odds of any of you encountering someone born into the tradition of shamanism is very remote. What you will encounter are FAS's (Fake Ass Shamans) like Zenman with some sort of political axe which they grind by pretending to reject Western culture.

Actually, I'm in a very well respected program run by a medical anthropologist and psychologist (www.thefourwinds.com) and a high ethical standard is really pushed. And some of us are there because we realize the failings of Western Medicine. It's great for trauma, surgery, diagnosis, but a total failure with chronic diseases. It's also way behind the current sciences but you probably already know that. The last session I was in had over a hundrd people, including M.D.s so there are more of us than you think. One I partnered up with for some of the training was an M.D./Ph.D. (molecular biology) and was there because he said he (and many of his peers) are tired of the lack of results they see with their patients. Watching a shaman knock out a unsuccessfully treated problem a woman had for over 30 years in about 20 minutes certainly impressed us. No, it doesn't work all the time and neither does Western medicine. You can certainly search and find where M.D.s describe where a shaman or medicine men have been successful when they have not. Ther's a book by a plastic surgeon called, "Shaman, M.D. you might enjoy...if you can pull yourself away from a reductionist textbook. The doc I was talking about earlier had his wife treated in front of us for anxiety...as a result she is now signed up for the program. My wife has also signed up after being invited to a fire ceremony. And yes, over a 32 year career starting in the military, I've seen the worst trauma and sickest patients you can think of. I now prefer to work with those who have no other option. By tje way, I asked for 13 clients for some of my clinical training...and got 27 in two hours. Must be some interest I'd say. You guys do know about mind/body medicine...right, LOL!

 

[ForbiddenComma]

I loathe few things more than people who are unwilling to accept empirical data (e.g. creationists who do not believe in the "theory" of evolution or people who wear a copper bracelet to cure their diabetes). You, however, want to throw out derogatory names to people who do not have the same access to education that you and I have. I have read many of your posts and understand that you are jaded by your experience at duke fp, but that does not mean that compassion, empathy and understanding are not important tools...even for tools.

denying that social context has anything to do with one's beliefs (or health for that matter)...that's just idiotic

a wise man told me not to argue with fools, because from a distance you can't tell who is who...you can have the last word.

(5000+ posts: those that talk the most have the least to say)

It seems clear to me that he is not insulting tribal shamans... he is questioning people (including some posters on this thread) who view it as hip and cool to say that tribal ways are better because they are not Western.

But either way, you do not lend credibility to yourself by resorting to personal attacks.

 

[ForbiddenComma]

Zenman, I am sure that your... shall we say, therapy... actually has some value as a psychological aid. There is no question that Western medicine has a lot to learn when it comes to psychology -- simply giving people something to believe in can cure all kinds of chronic anxiety or other disorders that standard therapy does not address. This is important because psych is a huge factor in chronic, sublethal conditions such as chronic pain, as we all know.

But on the other hand, I don't think your shaman society can do much for a gastric carcinoma...

 

[QuikClot]

Look, if you need a heart transplant of hemodialysis, something which I'll admit most people living in jungles with lizard bones in their noses don't need because they die by the age of thirty,

So what we've learned is:

* Non-westerners die by the age of thirty (we could stop reading here if all we needed was proof PB doesn't have a clue what he is talking about.)

* People who live in jungles put bone through their noses (this seems to be all PB knows about other cultures, that some of them use bones as jewelry. He seems to think it very important, as he's repeated it several times.)

* There is something called "a heart transplant of hemodialysis," which evidently proves that Westerners are superior to non-Westerners. Funny thing, I'll bet even people with "bones through their noses" could deduce that a heart transplant is the transplant of a heart, not of hemodialysis. But the beauty of Western medicine is, with its great machines and technology, PB doesn't need a functioning brain.

That's what I think is so bogus about all of you politically correct apologists for primitive cultures. First, you wouldn't be caught dead allowing anybody to practice that **** on you or your family. Second, many of you have never seen really sick people and can't differentiate a soft complaint like vague back pain which might respond to the placebo effect induced by waving some bloody chicken feathers from something real like...oh...let's say meningitis.

Can you really be so stupid that you think the placebo effect is a function of how "serious" an illness is? Review your "Dick and Jane" reader, then tackle any medical journal in the world, which should disabuse of that notion, although your racism and global ignorance may be tougher to redress. Conservatism . . . one of the three most common signs a person is developmentally delayed.

 

[zenman]

But on the other hand, I don't think your shaman society can do much for a gastric carcinoma...

But...sometimes...it has. But the focus is more on healing vs curing. You may still die but won't go out screaming and kicking.

 

[8744]

But...sometimes...it has. But the focus is more on healing vs curing. You may still die but won't go out screaming and kicking.

Oh fer' crying out loud. I guess "healing" is another one of those words that now mean nothing because they can mean everything. Fine. Terrific. If you can make somebody feel better about their condition by using some primitive ritual then more power to you. One should never underestimate the power of placebos.

However, you cannot manage a chronic disease like Type 1 Diabetes by "shaking da' bones" and channeling the otter god. Sorry. That's going to require insulin. As you recall, people used to die from Diabetes. It was a death sentence as it still is in the aforementioned jungle among the people with lizard bones in their noses.

All you're telling me is that you have had good success managing patients with vague, psychosomatic complaints.

By the way, it is unethical to prescribe placebos. This was common practice in the past where physicians dispensed sugar-pills with ominous latin names but times have changed.

 

[8744]

...Can you really be so stupid that you think the placebo effect is a function of how "serious" an illness is?

Meningitis will not respond to the placebo effect. The bacteria just don't care. Maybe laughter and happy-happy thoughts will lower your stress level and give your immune system a tiny kick but pretty much you are ****ed without antibiotics.

Same with diabetes. You can have a terrific outlook and believe wholeheartedly in the healing power of the Otter God and his Otter Demons but it's the insulin that's going to keep you alive.

 

[8744]

I once saw a shaman shake a baby. That goes against every poster i've ever read.

Bigot. He was shaking the colic demon out of the little bastard.