Doctor Respect

[FoughtFyr]

There's hope for you though...you have a good imagination...so could make a good shaman, LOL! Does "the world is as you dream it" mean anything to you?

Yeah, like this former truck driver in South Africa selling an AIDS potion that came to him in a dream. Hey Zenman, would you volunteer to be inoculated with HIV and trust this cure?

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/health/bal-te.aids20aug20,0,6214389.story?coll=bal-health-headlines

- H

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Hoberto]

The physician scientist that was in my class said that he had to be careful discussing this also, but privately many physicians told him of their frustrations in their practice and he told them what he was doing. But you are probably young and idealistic ...but that's ok. The reason I can do it is because I've been in healthcare 33 years and have seen a lot. All I'm suggesting is that you realize there is more than what you know and just keep in the back of your mind...when nothing else is working...that the patients might want to know of other options. Here's why:

I agree, nocallaochicas, this is hilarious.

If PB is young and idealistic, I must be rich and carefree.


Zenman- It's okay to quote experts, but you have to quote experts who have published in peer-reviewed, legitimate journals in the topics you are talking about. This means we should be able to look up articles about the effects of massaging the chakra on lower back pain as compared to nothing/massage/NSAIDS/control. I can quote an expert's opinion about avian auditory syndrome, but if that expert has done all his research in the field of small vehicle brake pads and their progeny his quote is useless.

 

[Faebinder]

Allow me to label myself "The nightmare of all scientific spirituality."

I don't believe in anything that is labelled scientific and yet doesn't have a p value with it.

 

[zenman]

Allow me to label myself "The nightmare of all scientific spirituality."

I don't believe in anything that is labelled scientific and yet doesn't have a p value with it.

All this hilarity is certainly keeping my immune system in fine shape, LOL!

Ah, spirituality...one thing lacking in western medicine...and one reason your customers are going elsewhere.

And scientific studies in humans are limited since you can't measure consciousness...and you're standing on that foundation???

Here is one of the most popular ethical codes, a dedication to the mythical founding family of medicine...whose contribution was a method for healing with imagination (the shaman's technique): "I swear by Apollo the Physician, by Asclepius, by Hygeia and Panacea and by all the Gods and Goddesses, making them my witnesses, that I will fulfill according to my ability and judgement this oath and covenant."

Cool, but I like my prayer for opening sacred space better

 

[zenman]

Did this zenman character just call Panda "young and idealistic"? LOL! Damn funniest and most incorrect thing I have seen him post yet!

No, the most incorrect thing to do is claim you went to LSU Shreveport

At least I went to Centenary.

 

[oldManDO2009]

I have been on SDN for only a year and you have continually espoused your spirit healing chakra - I can see the light and your healed psychotic diatribe without any EBM studies to back up your claims. Oh sure, you pull a few quotes from some book and that should be sufficient to make your point – well it doesn’t! Link these articles and allow people who are practicing or learning to practice medicine have a look and a good laugh.

You think your credentials as a nurse for 33 years and an NP drop out make you an expert and you are not. You do not understand the scientific underpinnings and make due with a few quotes about quantum physics – it is laughable. If you want to compare our pathetic patient abusing western medicine (because we don’t give their spirit a hug) with your all powerful sham medicine then get out the research.

The biggest problem with OMM is that many studies have an n of 3 and I become vary suspicious – the placebo effect cannot be teased out of such a small population. So if you can see dark shadows that indicate brain tumors you should evaluate a large population with a number of actual tumors or take haldol for the delusions.

I enjoy debating on SDN but you proffer this unscientific mumbo-jumbo as if it was fact and not some fanciful side-show that it really is. You have every right to present your side but I am not buying snake oil this week

 

[Lindyhopper]

. . . I enjoy debating on SDN but you proffer this unscientific mumbo-jumbo as if it was fact and not some fanciful side-show that it really is. . . .

On the subject of unscientific mumbo-jumbo, many university based nursing programs (including NYU) actually teach the Martha Rogers Theory of nursing. It's pretty similiar to Zenman's thoughts. It's much more dangerous because it is cloaked in the legitamacy of universities. Here's some nonsense from the website Wasburn U School of Nursing.

The principles of homeodynamics postulate a way of perceiving unitary man. Change in the life process in man are predicted to be inseparable from environmental changes and to reflect the mutual and simultaneous interaction between the two at any point space-time. Changes are irreversible, nonrepeatable. They are rhythmical in nature and evidence growing complexity of pattern and organization. Change proceeds by the continuous repatterning of both man and environment by resonating waves. Evidence of conditions under which these principles hold arises out of examination of the real world. Investigations of a range of phenomena are necessary to provide the substantive data which can further the translation of these principles into practical application. Scientific research in nursing is beginning to underwrite the moving boundaries of nursing advances. Maintenance and promotion of health, disease prevention, diagnosis, intervention, and rehabilitation-nursing's goals-take on added dimensions as theoretical knowledge provides new direction to practice.

Principles of Homeodynamics derive from the abstract system and postulate the nature of change. The principles are listed as follows:


Principle of Resonancy:
The continuous change from lower to higher frequency wave patterns in human and environmental fields.

Principle of Helicy:
The continuous innovative, unpredictable, increasing diversity of human and environmental field patterns.

Principle of Integrality:
The continuous mutual human field and environmental field process.

 

[Vox Animo]

On the subject of unscientific mumbo-jumbo, many university based nursing programs (including NYU) actually teach the Martha Rogers Theory of nursing. It's pretty similiar to Zenman's thoughts. It's much more dangerous because it is cloaked in the legitamacy of universities. Here's some nonsense from the website Wasburn U School of Nursing.

The principles of homeodynamics postulate a way of perceiving unitary man. Change in the life process in man are predicted to be inseparable from environmental changes and to reflect the mutual and simultaneous interaction between the two at any point space-time. Changes are irreversible, nonrepeatable. They are rhythmical in nature and evidence growing complexity of pattern and organization. Change proceeds by the continuous repatterning of both man and environment by resonating waves. Evidence of conditions under which these principles hold arises out of examination of the real world. Investigations of a range of phenomena are necessary to provide the substantive data which can further the translation of these principles into practical application. Scientific research in nursing is beginning to underwrite the moving boundaries of nursing advances. Maintenance and promotion of health, disease prevention, diagnosis, intervention, and rehabilitation-nursing's goals-take on added dimensions as theoretical knowledge provides new direction to practice.

Principles of Homeodynamics derive from the abstract system and postulate the nature of change. The principles are listed as follows:


Principle of Resonancy:
The continuous change from lower to higher frequency wave patterns in human and environmental fields.

Principle of Helicy:
The continuous innovative, unpredictable, increasing diversity of human and environmental field patterns.

Principle of Integrality:
The continuous mutual human field and environmental field process.

It basically says everything, but being careful not to say anything. Where do these people come from?

 

[zenman]

I have been on SDN for only a year and you have continually espoused your spirit healing chakra - I can see the light and your healed psychotic diatribe without any EBM studies to back up your claims. Oh sure, you pull a few quotes from some book and that should be sufficient to make your point – well it doesn’t! Link these articles and allow people who are practicing or learning to practice medicine have a look and a good laugh.

You think your credentials as a nurse for 33 years and an NP drop out make you an expert and you are not. You do not understand the scientific underpinnings and make due with a few quotes about quantum physics – it is laughable. If you want to compare our pathetic patient abusing western medicine (because we don’t give their spirit a hug) with your all powerful sham medicine then get out the research.

The biggest problem with OMM is that many studies have an n of 3 and I become vary suspicious – the placebo effect cannot be teased out of such a small population. So if you can see dark shadows that indicate brain tumors you should evaluate a large population with a number of actual tumors or take haldol for the delusions.

I enjoy debating on SDN but you proffer this unscientific mumbo-jumbo as if it was fact and not some fanciful side-show that it really is. You have every right to present your side but I am not buying snake oil this week

You can say EBM all you want but if a double blind study has limitations then you should keep that in mind.

If people are searching for something that you don't offer, you just need to keep that in mind.

If someone else has something to offer when you run out of options, you need to keep that in mind.

Your patients deserve more than that...yes I have 33 years of seeing (that's experiental, not EBM) what happens in the real world. The people in the few examples I gave really don't give a rat's ass about EBM...they would be dead. If you really must have EBM, go talk to all the docs who have gone over to the dark side...or who really understand how the mind works.

You're waiting on studies, I'm seeing results.

There are quite a few physicians who see as I do; perhaps you should talk to them...if you wish. Here's another:

David Cumes, M.D. was born in South Africa and received his medical training in Johannesburg. Specializing in urology, he has taught at Stanford Medical Center, has published extensively in professional journals and currently has a private practice in Santa Barbara, California. He is a Western trained surgeon steeped in the allopathic paradigm of medicine and is an African trained shaman.

Dr. Cumes is committed to bridging Western allopathic medicine and ancient African healing wisdom. Western medicine has brought us many boons but there are glaring deficiencies as well. We focus too much on the intellectual, cognitive and scientific and too little on the intuitive, receptive, artistic, compassionate and mystical. Going back to our root or core self with the help of ancient African wisdom gives us not only an understanding of our origins but a clear perspective of a new and, at the some time, very old paradigm of healing not confined to the space/time continuum.

 

[Faebinder]

You can say EBM all you want but if a double blind study has limitations then you should keep that in mind.

If people are searching for something that you don't offer, you just need to keep that in mind.

If someone else has something to offer when you run out of options, you need to keep that in mind.

Your patients deserve more than that...yes I have 33 years of seeing (that's experiental, not EBM) what happens in the real world. The people in the few examples I gave really don't give a rat's ass about EBM...they would be dead. If you really must have EBM, go talk to all the docs who have gone over to the dark side...or who really understand how the mind works.

You're waiting on studies, I'm seeing results.

There are quite a few physicians who see as I do; perhaps you should talk to them...if you wish. Here's another:

David Cumes, M.D. was born in South Africa and received his medical training in Johannesburg. Specializing in urology, he has taught at Stanford Medical Center, has published extensively in professional journals and currently has a private practice in Santa Barbara, California. He is a Western trained surgeon steeped in the allopathic paradigm of medicine and is an African trained shaman.

Dr. Cumes is committed to bridging Western allopathic medicine and ancient African healing wisdom. Western medicine has brought us many boons but there are glaring deficiencies as well. We focus too much on the intellectual, cognitive and scientific and too little on the intuitive, receptive, artistic, compassionate and mystical. Going back to our root or core self with the help of ancient African wisdom gives us not only an understanding of our origins but a clear perspective of a new and, at the some time, very old paradigm of healing not confined to the space/time continuum.

Hmm.. maybe I didn't make myself clear? Where is the p value?

 

[oldManDO2009]

You can say EBM all you want but if a double blind study has limitations then you should keep that in mind.

Right, but since sham medicine does not even attempt to study outcomes this supports my point.

If people are searching for something that you don't offer, you just need to keep that in mind.

What - to cure an incurable disease or let other people know how hip they are? If they want to rattle bones to decide what shirt to wear - fine. Are you suggesting that the sham-man should reach into their spirit being and pull out the cancer?

If someone else has something to offer when you run out of options, you need to keep that in mind.

This is where it gets dangerous, if you want to put on some goat skin chaps and rattle bones to realign someone’s chakras - fine have at it. But to imply that a person with a terminal disease and on deaths doorstep should look to a sham-man for a cure is outrageous.

You're waiting on studies, I'm seeing results.

No, I am not waiting. I am learning about what medical treatments are effective (via EBM) and trying to practice safe and effective medicine. You act as if western medicine hates the patient and only treats the disease. I happen to sit down with my patient and give them my full attention. I empathize (to a point) and try to provide compassionate care. Should I be giving them a hug and telling the they have a beautiful aurora. I think their primary concern is the MEDICAL problem that brought them to me.

Go ask one or a hundred cancer patients if they would rather have a treatment that is 30% effective in pushing the cancer into remission and has a 75% 5 year survival rate OR a sham-man who can see the dark shadows in your soul and pull out the cancer. Since we do not study sham-man cures we have a 0% remission rate and an unknown 5 year survival - let me how that works out.

Wait, you will say that for real-world (i do not know what that means) problems you would see a western (patient hating) doctor. So that leaves people that are either nuts or think trees deserve hugs too

I have said it a thousand times and one more time will not make a difference. Every time someone groans that we have an admit terminally stalled in the ER or here comes so and so for their dilaudid - we would not be employed without those patients so be glad they are here....

 

[oldManDO2009]

In South Africa indigenous healers (sangomas or inyangas) help people and guide daily events with the use of their knowledge of what is to come. These healers are masters of the spirit world and they obtain valuable information from a field of intelligence that they believe comes from their ancestors. The ancestors cannot communicate in a normal way because they live in the realm of spirit. Therefore they choose to talk through trance-channeling (possession states) or through the metaphor of the "bones." Here an information field is set up which determines a distinct bone pattern generated for the patient in question and interpreted by a skillful healer. This medicine, which is not localized in space and time, can be made available by phone or e-mail.


TO SCHEDULE READINGS WITH DR. CUMES:

African Spirit Songs (songs channeled by Dave's ancestors to him in his dreams)
$25 donation

Bone Divination with Dave in person or by phone (takes 1-2 hours)
$500 donation

Highly personalized trans-cultural trip (no more than four persons) to Tshisimane and the surrounding magical Limpopo, including Kruger National Park, for two weeks with Dave (excludes airfare)
$15,000 donation

Significant donations tailored to the above projects can be tastefully commemorated. Speak to Dave personally at

I looked up this guy and his website says it all...

 

[8744]

Come on, Zenman. If you just admit that you are a scam artist who has found a good angle to fleece the idle rich you won't hear a peep out of me. You're not breaking any laws and I'm libertarian enough not to care what consenting adults, even sick ones, do with their disposable income.

 

[docB]

Isn't the horse dead yet?

 

[zenman]

Hmm.. maybe I didn't make myself clear? Where is the p value?

Where is it...I first saw it in the book, "How to Lie with Statistics."

Experts: Mistrust of medical research justified
Citing the flip-flops of medical research that led to the hyping and then withdrawal of hormone replacement therapy and most COX-2 drugs, some researchers see a need to overhaul the way clinical studies are conducted. Better training of researchers, better trial oversight and a consumer audience more skeptical of "major advances" would help, the researchers say. Yahoo! /HealthDay News

Are we clear now?

 

[zenman]

This is where it gets dangerous, if you want to put on some goat skin chaps and rattle bones to realign someone’s chakras - fine have at it. But to imply that a person with a terminal disease and on deaths doorstep should look to a sham-man for a cure is outrageous.

No, what you do when you are shot in the back by an arrow is to visit your local ED. But when you still have pain that just won't go away or years of talk therapy hasn't helped your PTSD...don't say, "I have no options left for you...sorry."

No, I am not waiting. I am learning about what medical treatments are effective (via EBM) and trying to practice safe and effective medicine. You act as if western medicine hates the patient and only treats the disease. I happen to sit down with my patient and give them my full attention. I empathize (to a point) and try to provide compassionate care. Should I be giving them a hug and telling the they have a beautiful aurora. I think their primary concern is the MEDICAL problem that brought them to me.

Go ask one or a hundred cancer patients if they would rather have a treatment that is 30% effective in pushing the cancer into remission and has a 75% 5 year survival rate OR a sham-man who can see the dark shadows in your soul and pull out the cancer. Since we do not study sham-man cures we have a 0% remission rate and an unknown 5 year survival - let me how that works out.

Wait, you will say that for real-world (i do not know what that means) problems you would see a western (patient hating) doctor. So that leaves people that are either nuts or think trees deserve hugs too

I have said it a thousand times and one more time will not make a difference. Every time someone groans that we have an admit terminally stalled in the ER or here comes so and so for their dilaudid - we would not be employed without those patients so be glad they are here....

And you're doing just what you have been trained to do. But your way is not the only way...and there are many patients and doctors who are frustrated and or "failures of western medicine." If someone can actually realize that a shaman was the first psychoneuroimmunologist then you now have a clue what's it's all about. Plain and simple...and that's all I'm saying.

 

[zenman]

Isn't the horse dead yet?

Maybe the mod will kill it!

 

[oldManDO2009]

Where is it...I first saw it in the book, "How to Lie with Statistics."

Experts: Mistrust of medical research justified
Citing the flip-flops of medical research that led to the hyping and then withdrawal of hormone replacement therapy and most COX-2 drugs, some researchers see a need to overhaul the way clinical studies are conducted. Better training of researchers, better trial oversight and a consumer audience more skeptical of "major advances" would help, the researchers say. Yahoo! /HealthDay News

Are we clear now?

This is brilliant - complain how western medicine manipulates numbers and conveniently forget that sham-man medicine doesn’t have any numbers

I do not want this thread to die - EVER!!! zen "the quote machine" man is such a needed break form the doldrums of evil arrow slinging western medicine

 

[Vox Animo]

Isn't the horse dead yet?

are you kidding, this one isn't even ripe yet.

 

[RAD11]

My opinion is that this is not limited to physicians. I think Americans, in general, respect everyone less.

So true

 

[Faebinder]

Where is it...I first saw it in the book, "How to Lie with Statistics."

Experts: Mistrust of medical research justified
Citing the flip-flops of medical research that led to the hyping and then withdrawal of hormone replacement therapy and most COX-2 drugs, some researchers see a need to overhaul the way clinical studies are conducted. Better training of researchers, better trial oversight and a consumer audience more skeptical of "major advances" would help, the researchers say. Yahoo! /HealthDay News

Are we clear now?

Heh... at least they had a p value... and the people who proved them wrong ALSO had p values..... where is your p value? Where are your clinical trials of shamanism working on patients? Did you compare them with double blinded placebo trials?

Finally, you calling statistics garbage drops my respect to you to the ground...

IS this guy a troll or for real? Well, whatever... The sad part is that I bet people listen to you.

 

[Qtip96]

Where is it...I first saw it in the book, "How to Lie with Statistics."

Experts: Mistrust of medical research justified
Citing the flip-flops of medical research that led to the hyping and then withdrawal of hormone replacement therapy and most COX-2 drugs, some researchers see a need to overhaul the way clinical studies are conducted. Better training of researchers, better trial oversight and a consumer audience more skeptical of "major advances" would help, the researchers say. Yahoo! /HealthDay News

Are we clear now?

a favorite quote from Osler is his statement that 40% of what he teaches is likely wrong, the caveat being he professes to not know which 40% that would be. despite the problems in modern medicine, it is practiced under the precepts of the scientific method. that is to say that every theory needs to be observable, testable, and in the end, reproducible. further, the results are expected to be transparent for the world to see and verify. naturally, many aspects of medical practice are openly argued, but in the progression of public discourse and experimentation, the truth eventually unfolds as is the case with Newtonian physics and any other aspect of scientific discovery. despite its flaws, i trust science over anecdotes and idiosyncracy. i would not entrust my health to any JUJU unless it could withstand the rigor of the scientific method.

 

[8744]

a favorite quote from Osler is his statement that 40% of what he teaches is likely wrong, the caveat being he professes to not know which 40% that would be. despite the problems in modern medicine, it is practiced under the precepts of the scientific method. that is to say that every theory needs to be observable, testable, and in the end, reproducible. further, the results are expected to be transparent for the world to see and verify. naturally, many aspects of medical practice are openly argued, but in the progression of public discourse and experimentation, the truth eventually unfolds as the case with Newtonian physics and any other aspect of scientific discovery. despite its flaws, i trust science over anecdotes and idiosyncracy. i would not entrust my health to any JUJU unless it could withstand the rigor of the scientific method.

Right. I want to know what mechanism shamanism has to examine its treatment modalities for efficacy. How do we know that flogging an otter to Uhapatec, the River God is the correct treatment for diabetes? What if it's Zalbabeck, the Bladder God who has jurisdiction?

Which 40 percent of shamanism is barking up the wrong tree?

 

[Qtip96]

Right. I want to know what mechanism shamanism has to examine its treatment modalities for efficacy. How do we know that flogging an otter to Uhapatec, the River God is the correct treatment for diabetes? What if it's Zalbabeck, the Bladder God who has jurisdiction?

Which 40 percent of shamanism is barking up the wrong tree?

exactly. if "otter flogging" or shamanism is expected to have a measurable effect on health or physiology, it should be testable. i have not seen anyone subject the JUJU to scientific rigor for fear it would be debunked as a crock.

it has been almost 7 years since the (in my opinion misguided) inception of the National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine (NCCAM), as an institute under the NIH. i have not yet heard of any meaningful "alternative" intervention that proved substantively better than placebo. truly, your tax dollars at work

 

[sdn1977]

On the subject of unscientific mumbo-jumbo, many university based nursing programs (including NYU) actually teach the Martha Rogers Theory of nursing. It's pretty similiar to Zenman's thoughts. It's much more dangerous because it is cloaked in the legitamacy of universities. Here's some nonsense from the website Wasburn U School of Nursing.

The principles of homeodynamics postulate a way of perceiving unitary man. Change in the life process in man are predicted to be inseparable from environmental changes and to reflect the mutual and simultaneous interaction between the two at any point space-time. Changes are irreversible, nonrepeatable. They are rhythmical in nature and evidence growing complexity of pattern and organization. Change proceeds by the continuous repatterning of both man and environment by resonating waves. Evidence of conditions under which these principles hold arises out of examination of the real world. Investigations of a range of phenomena are necessary to provide the substantive data which can further the translation of these principles into practical application. Scientific research in nursing is beginning to underwrite the moving boundaries of nursing advances. Maintenance and promotion of health, disease prevention, diagnosis, intervention, and rehabilitation-nursing's goals-take on added dimensions as theoretical knowledge provides new direction to practice.

Principles of Homeodynamics derive from the abstract system and postulate the nature of change. The principles are listed as follows:


Principle of Resonancy:
The continuous change from lower to higher frequency wave patterns in human and environmental fields.

Principle of Helicy:
The continuous innovative, unpredictable, increasing diversity of human and environmental field patterns.

Principle of Integrality:
The continuous mutual human field and environmental field process.

This sounds similar to the concept of "ill humours" causing disease which was espoused during the 1700-1800's.......

 

[Miami_med]

exactly. if "otter flogging" or shamanism is expected to have a measurable effect on health or physiology, it should be testable. i have not seen anyone subject the JUJU to scientific rigor for fear it would be debunked as a crock.

it has been almost 7 years since the (in my opinion misguided) inception of the National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine (NCCAM), as an institute under the NIH. i have not yet heard of any meaningful "alternative" intervention that proved substantively better than placebo. truly, your tax dollars at work

Oh great. Now we have a beauracracy that will HAVE to "Show" something to be effective to prove that it still needs to exist. I love government

 

[deleted112134]

Which doctor specialties are the specialties that are respected by everyone?

I think they are 1) neurosurgery and 2) cardiothoracic surgery.

I wouldn't think that any career is more respected than another. As long as it is lawful and genuine, it gets respects

 

[oldManDO2009]

I wouldn't think that any career is more respected than another. As long as it is lawful and genuine, it gets respects

Who needs to discuss professional respect when we are flogging tree hugging spirit guided "I see your aurora and have aligned your chakra" medicine navigated by the river god and zen “he who has no p value” man

 

[RokChalkJayhawk]

We will count the number of people "healed" of cancer by shamans on our fingers and toes, and then utilize a calculator to count up the number healed by chemotherapy and modern medicine.

It's not national news when someone is cured of cancer by a chemo regimen.

It is international news when someone's life-threatening cancer spontaneously vanishes.

 

[zenman]

This is brilliant - complain how western medicine manipulates numbers and conveniently forget that sham-man medicine doesn’t have any numbers

I do not want this thread to die - EVER!!! zen "the quote machine" man is such a needed break form the doldrums of evil arrow slinging western medicine

Humans run research studies and play with the numbers and as you know therein lies a problem.

I'm actually getting tired...didn't realize your education was so lacking!

Shaman numbers? Look for keywords such as hypnosis, psychology, imagery in medicine, PNI, mind body medicine, psychiatry, medical anthropology and you will find many numbers. ANY QUESTIONS?

 

[zenman]

Heh... at least they had a p value... and the people who proved them wrong ALSO had p values..... where is your p value? Where are your clinical trials of shamanism working on patients? Did you compare them with double blinded placebo trials?

Finally, you calling statistics garbage drops my respect to you to the ground...

IS this guy a troll or for real? Well, whatever... The sad part is that I bet people listen to you.

I didn't say stats were garbage...try to read at a higher level. See above reply. Yes, people listen to me as most of the ones that come to me have not gotten any relief from you.

Double blind studies have limitations...deal with it.

 

[zenman]

Who needs to discuss professional respect when we are flogging tree hugging spirit guided "I see your aurora and have aligned your chakra" medicine navigated by the river god and zen “he who has no p value” man

This one is going to be fun

Recently MIT discovered that they could drive nails into trees and power a light bulb. Tree huggers must have been feeling something all along!

And chakras? The well known and "real" scientist Candace Pert, who discovered the opiate receptor and who, along with her husband Dr. Michael Ruff, discovered Peptide T, says her work is "beginning to reveal the scientific underpinnings of the chakra system. From this point of view, the chakras are 'minibrains'; nodal points of electrical and chemical activity that receive, process, and distribute information from and to the rest of the bodymind. Physiologically, each chakra is the site of a neuronal plexus-a network of cells dense with neuropeptide transmitters. All are interdependently connected to each other, such that nourishing any one plexus enhances the effectiveness of the entire system. By the same token, trauma or neglect can manifest as a block at one or more nodal points, degrading the performance of all."

Continue to discuss among yourself.

 

[zenman]

This is brilliant - complain how western medicine manipulates numbers and conveniently forget that sham-man medicine doesn’t have any numbers

I do not want this thread to die - EVER!!! zen "the quote machine" man is such a needed break form the doldrums of evil arrow slinging western medicine

Quote machine, LOL...don't you have references on your papers?

 

[zenman]

Ok, I can't help myself: from the astrophysicist Bernard Haisch..."The problem is that mainstream science has itself become dangerously dogmatic and dismissive of evidence that does not accord with its philosophical beliefs."

"...rejecting anything prejoratively called supernatural in the name of science is equally flawed and irrational."

"Modern science is not as risk of exhausting its field of research; it has simply, by and large, failed to notice the vast possibilities for discovery outside the well-explored field of reductionism. Science denies that there is another world beyond its borders and treats the reports of travelers in that realm as delusions and imaginings. Real discoveries lie ahead if we can learn to integrate the vast physical knowledge accumulated by science over three centuries, with the spiritual awareness embodied in our own consciousness."

Damn, wish I had said that, LOL!

 

[Qtip96]

Ok, I can't help myself: from the astrophysicist Bernard Haisch..."The problem is that mainstream science has itself become dangerously dogmatic and dismissive of evidence that does not accord with its philosophical beliefs."

"...rejecting anything prejoratively called supernatural in the name of science is equally flawed and irrational."

"Modern science is not as risk of exhausting its field of research; it has simply, by and large, failed to notice the vast possibilities for discovery outside the well-explored field of reductionism. Science denies that there is another world beyond its borders and treats the reports of travelers in that realm as delusions and imaginings. Real discoveries lie ahead if we can learn to integrate the vast physical knowledge accumulated by science over three centuries, with the spiritual awareness embodied in our own consciousness."

Damn, wish I had said that, LOL!

there is a clear difference between the metaphysical musings of scientists versus your sciolism and sophistry. induction is never confused with the necessity to eventually subject all theories to the challenge of observation, experimentation, and reproducibility (implicit in "science").

your propensity to spout off these quotes only reflect your lack of original thought.

tell me. how can a patient or scientist differentiate an authentic practiitioner of "chakra" versus a purveyor of snake oil? you stated that there are limitations to double-blind placebo controled trials. granted... but it is one of the best tools we have to measure an intervention beyond the effect of placebo with minimal bias. how else do you propose we evaluate "mystical" interventions for efficacy and reproducibility if medical practitioners are to offer these therapies as an alternative to standard of care?

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

This one is going to be fun

Recently MIT discovered that they could drive nails into trees and power a light bulb. Tree huggers must have been feeling something all along!

A) Source?

B) That experiment has never been reproduced and its over 10 years old. Smells of quackery to me.

 

[zenman]

A) Source?

B) That experiment has never been reproduced and its over 10 years old. Smells of quackery to me.

A few weeks ago on CNN...suppose one could check it out with MIT...before you jump on anything coming from CNN!

 

[undertow]

I have as much respect for a [good] doctor as a [good] garbageman, cab driver, or janitor.

Thank you,

 

[zenman]

your propensity to spout off these quotes only reflect your lack of original thought.

tell me. how can a patient or scientist differentiate an authentic practiitioner of "chakra" versus a purveyor of snake oil? you stated that there are limitations to double-blind placebo controled trials. granted... but it is one of the best tools we have to measure an intervention beyond the effect of placebo with minimal bias. how else do you propose we evaluate "mystical" interventions for efficacy and reproducibility if medical practitioners are to offer these therapies as an alternative to standard of care?

I have plenty of original thought but when sparing with people such as your peers, who quote a lot of people, it levels the playing field a little. But thanks for asking my opinion. Double-blind studies are the best that we have at the moment…we just need to keep in mind the limitations. There is such a diversity among the different types of say “mystical” techniques that one would have to tease out the commonalities and maybe even reframe them into “acceptable” culturally accepted terms. The shaman heals in the realm of the imagination…much research has already been done in that area, including biofeedback, hypnosis, rituals, meditation, etc. in areas of behavioral medicine. So one could use the research lab as well as field work actually observing different cultures in practice. But I also think there may be some things we just can’t measure at the present time.

I will also ask your question of the shaman that is training me. He used to be head of the Biological Self-Regulation Lab at San Fran State University.

So, if one wanted to study the benefits of dance in an African tribe would it also help to put down your notepad and dance?

 

[Qtip96]

Double-blind studies are the best that we have at the moment…we just need to keep in mind the limitations.

name 3 limitations. name one study design that is better for evaluating clinical interventions.

There is such a diversity among the different types of say "mystical" techniques that one would have to tease out the commonalities and maybe even reframe them into "acceptable" culturally accepted terms. The shaman heals in the realm of the imagination…much research has already been done in that area, including biofeedback, hypnosis, rituals, meditation, etc. in areas of behavioral medicine. So one could use the research lab as well as field work actually observing different cultures in practice. But I also think there may be some things we just can't measure at the present time.

we CAN measure. it's very straight forward. so long as an intervention is meant to have an effect of human health, the assay is a measurable change in human physiology and anatomy. to date, i have not heard of ANY independent confirmation. please cite references for the data you are referring to with any evidence of reproducibility.

I will also ask your question of the shaman that is training me. He used to be head of the Biological Self-Regulation Lab at San Fran State University.

please do.

So, if one wanted to study the benefits of dance in an African tribe would it also help to put down your notepad and dance?

you are being facetious. medicine is a serious business and people look to us to make life and death decisions. there are strict regulatory and licensing bodies in western medicine to document at least basic proficiency in our skills. i ask you again, how are sick patients to identify an authentic practitioner in your art versus a farce? and if there is a regulatory body, what mechanisms are there for enforcement and oversight?

 

[zenman]

The shaman heals in the realm of the imagination…much research has already been done in that area, including biofeedback, hypnosis, rituals, meditation, etc. in areas of behavioral medicine. So one could use the research lab as well as field work actually observing different cultures in practice. But I also think there may be some things we just can’t measure at the present time.

I will also ask your question of the shaman that is training me. He used to be head of the Biological Self-Regulation Lab at San Fran State University.

Alberto emailed me to say he agreed with the above.

 

[zenman]

name 3 limitations. name one study design that is better for evaluating clinical interventions.

we CAN measure. it's very straight forward. so long as an intervention is meant to have an effect of human health, the assay is a measurable change in human physiology and anatomy. to date, i have not heard of ANY independent confirmation. please cite references for the data you are referring to with any evidence of reproducibility.

please do.

you are being facetious. medicine is a serious business and people look to us to make life and death decisions. there are strict regulatory and licensing bodies in western medicine to document at least basic proficiency in our skills. i ask you again, how are sick patients to identify an authentic practitioner in your art versus a farce? and if there is a regulatory body, what mechanisms are there for enforcement and oversight?

We can't measure consciousness, spirit, or spirituality at the moment so any study involving humans will have to account for that limitation. And as well know, there are many variables in the human condition plus we do not fully understand the role of the mind in regards to the body.

Norman Shealy, M.D., Ph.D., is one person among others, who is pushing for some kind of standards in the field...although that will probably be a big hassle with so many different kinds of practitioners. While that is good, all the regulations and oversight in the world do not quarantee not getting a farce.

 

[THP]

We can't measure consciousness, spirit, or spirituality at the moment so any study involving humans will have to account for that limitation. And as well know, there are many variables in the human condition plus we do not fully understand the role of the mind in regards to the body.
.

This is actually not hard to do. You simply have to define the outcomes you are interested in and what intervention you plan to do. Then, perform the intervention on randomized populations with the disease and compare them to placebo, and the standard of care and see if there are any differences in outcomes.

 

[Qtip96]

Alberto emailed me to say he agreed with the above.

ALBERTO???

now i am reassured...

 

[Qtip96]

We can't measure consciousness, spirit, or spirituality at the moment so any study involving humans will have to account for that limitation. And as well know, there are many variables in the human condition plus we do not fully understand the role of the mind in regards to the body.

you are wrong. as THP stated, the effects of any intervention can be meaured if there is expected to be a physiological human response. avoidance of this reality simply concludes that these spiritual interventions are ineffectual to human physiology. PERIOD.

While that is good, all the regulations and oversight in the world do not quarantee not getting a farce.

your vacuous statement does not reconcile the fact that there are NO regulations and oversight in shamanism and spritual interventions.

for example, a doctor accredited in cardiology by the american board of internal medicine is guaranteed to have finished medical school, internal medicine, and cardiology fellowship, passed all 3 steps in the USMLE boards, passed the internal medicine boards, and passed the cardiology boards. to practice, he/she also needs licensure in every state he/she practices. this individual could theoretically be a poor physician, but he/she is guaranteed to have at least a basic level of clinical knowledge and competence. further, any professional indescretion can be brought to the attention of the medical board (complaints can be filed by ANYONE) and clinical privileges can be REVOKED FOR LIFE. there are absolutely no such measures to assure quality of care in shamanism.

 

[Qtip96]

Norman Shealy, M.D., Ph.D., is one person among others, who is pushing for some kind of standards in the field...

i wonder who you or Norman would consult if you were suffering a myocardial infarction... a spiritual counselor (perhaps use the Five Sacred Rings or the Shealy Relaxmate II) or a cardiologist. regardless of what you answer, i trust i will find you on a cath table getting an angioplasty like everyone else.

 

[8744]

We can't measure consciousness, spirit, or spirituality at the moment so any study involving humans will have to account for that limitation. And as well know, there are many variables in the human condition plus we do not fully understand the role of the mind in regards to the body.

Norman Shealy, M.D., Ph.D., is one person among others, who is pushing for some kind of standards in the field...although that will probably be a big hassle with so many different kinds of practitioners. While that is good, all the regulations and oversight in the world do not quarantee not getting a farce.

"Your Honor, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, the plaintiff alleges a significant breach in the standard of care which caused her health to deteriorate as well as considerable pain and suffering. Clearly the defendant, Dr. Mugumbuto, invoked Utaphutu, the Otter God when even a first year witch-doctor resident knows that inflammatory bowel disease is the exclusive domain of Inguphutatotec, the Destroyer of Worlds."

"is it then any wonder that Inguphutatotec, who is a jealous god as you well know, caused a spirit of rectal bleeding and strangulated chakra to afflict my client?"

 

[8744]

We can't measure consciousness, spirit, or spirituality at the moment so any study involving humans will have to account for that limitation. And as well know, there are many variables in the human condition plus we do not fully understand the role of the mind in regards to the body.

Norman Shealy, M.D., Ph.D., is one person among others, who is pushing for some kind of standards in the field...although that will probably be a big hassle with so many different kinds of practitioners. While that is good, all the regulations and oversight in the world do not quarantee not getting a farce.

Dude. Your whole philosophy is a farce.

 

[Hoberto]

Y'know Zenman, I like to think of myself as a pretty open person who is willing to consider alternative therapies and ideas. However, to honestly consider the ideas of your shaman leaders I need to have some legitimate proof. Examples abound in the literature of procedures that were performed for exactly the reasons you suggest....people reported elimination or lessening of their symptoms. However, when these procedures were subjected to double blind RCT, the results did not support the reports of the patients and their physicians. This is why we can no longer use hearsay and personal anecdotes to determine acceptable standards of care. Surely you can understand that.

Now, there are many times where one can show a favorable outcome without knowing the underlying reason. For instance, perhaps a shaman could show that in 50 people with migraines his methods were able to reduce the pain as compared to 50 people with migraines who did nothing. Although we wouldn't know why the shaman's method was effective, we could at least give some evidence that it is effective.

These types of studies would be quite easy to carry out and the lack of peer-reviewed published research suggests that practitioners of shamanism have been unsuccessful in their research or that they simply do not care. Since shamanism has been practiced for centuries there has been ample time to run even a simple study and publish those results. Even a retrospective study should be possible if accurate records have been kept.

 

[oldManDO2009]

"Your Honor, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, the plaintiff alleges a significant breach in the standard of care which caused her health to deteriorate as well as considerable pain and suffering. Clearly the defendant, Dr. Mugumbuto, invoked Utaphutu, the Otter God when even a first year witch-doctor resident knows that inflammatory bowel disease is the exclusive domain of Inguphutatotec, the Destroyer of Worlds."

"is it then any wonder that Inguphutatotec, who is a jealous god as you well know, caused a spirit of rectal bleeding and strangulated chakra to afflict my client?"

OMG ROFL and puking I will see you in court for my hilarious discomfort PB