Doctors behaving badly, Part II

[Goro]

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‘I did it on purpose’: Man arrested after causing disturbance at OIA

 

[PickleRick19]

But...but... he has rights! /s

Future concealed carry guy? Is that you?

 

[OrthoTraumaMD]

‘I did it on purpose’: Man arrested after causing disturbance at OIA

All he did was demonstrate that the police treat all jerks equally.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[Goro]

Thanks for your 30+ years of service and sacrifice, you had a 2-minute lapse in professionalism off the clock in another state while on vacation (which will get tossed or pled down to a misdemeanor), and now you should be professionally executed.

People have been hanged for less.

 

[Goro]

In America? With a constitution, due process, checks and balances?

In the USSR or early middle ages fiefdoms, yes. Which is about where we are at moment with certain political groups rebranding a totalitarian agenda as "professionalism"

Thankfully the USSC is starting to intervene:

Supreme Court Rules Professional Speech Is Protected By First Amendment

 

[Raney Schauer]

"When keepin' it real goes wrong"

 

[deleted480308]

He did this because....racist cops?

 

[Goro]

He did this because....racist cops?

Just the opposite...he said something like he could sympathize with African-Americans who deal with cops.

 

[RNthenDoc]

Honestly, it’s a pretty smart defense. He will come out smelling like roses, and getting a slap on the wrist.

MDs get away with a lot.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bu...octor-will-not-serve-jail-time-after-raping-a

 

[sloop]

I don’t believe this was a political statement. I think that’s a retrospective excuse he’s crafted.

If you are trying to make a scene as a political statement, why do it before 6 AM?

 

[ACSurgeon]

‘I did it on purpose’: Man arrested after causing disturbance at OIA

People sometimes do stupid things. Doctors probably a lot less than the general public, but let’s not pretend we are angels and have 100% perfect behavior at all times...

 

[ACSurgeon]

Honestly, it’s a pretty smart defense. He will come out smelling like roses, and getting a slap on the wrist.

MDs get away with a lot.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bu...octor-will-not-serve-jail-time-after-raping-a

Or maybe it’s more because we have an imperfect criminal justice system. I’d use stronger language but unfortunately we are among the fairest in the world.

Or maybe it’s texas judges not thinking rape is a big deal. This child rapist spent 45 days in jail and five years probation instead of 10...

https://www-m.cnn.com/2014/05/05/justice/texas-rape-sentence/?r=https://www.google.com/

Your argument that MDs get away with a lot is the wrong conclusion.

 

[Robin-jay]

Honestly, it’s a pretty smart defense. He will come out smelling like roses, and getting a slap on the wrist.

MDs get away with a lot.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bu...octor-will-not-serve-jail-time-after-raping-a

"Shafeeq Sheikh, 46, lost his medical license and his job after he was arrested, but he won’t serve time behind bars. He will have to register as a sex offender for life."

Eh, he got away without prison, but losing a medical license (which for us is a nightmare) and being a registered sex offender for life (that's a hard life) is still a hefty punishment (which he deserved).

 

[Raney Schauer]

Just the opposite...he said something like he could sympathize with African-Americans who deal with cops.

I don’t believe this was a political statement. I think that’s a retrospective excuse he’s crafted.

If you are trying to make a scene as a political statement, why do it before 6 AM?

He was backpedaling there. That was a finely crafted bit of vague B.S. That guy was so far out of top dead center that he probably didn't even know he said it until someone showed him the tape.

 

[Money Moniker]

Or maybe it’s more because we have an imperfect criminal justice system. I’d use stronger language but unfortunately we are among the fairest in the world.

Or maybe it’s texas judges not thinking rape is a big deal. This child rapist spent 45 days in jail and five years probation instead of 10...

https://www-m.cnn.com/2014/05/05/justice/texas-rape-sentence/?r=https://www.google.com/

Your argument that MDs get away with a lot is the wrong conclusion.

The rapist in your article is black, by the way. Just pointing it out so that people don't try to have it both ways. If this article is supposed to be representative of "Texas justice" the way you're trying to paint it, then we must also conclude Texas justice treats African Americans with kid gloves and slaps on the wrist.

 

[Raney Schauer]

Every stupid thing you do off the clock and away a place where you're providing care doesn't a priori fall within a reasonable purview of "professionalism"

Note at my program, there is currently a push to bring "having healthy relationships" under the umbrella of professionalism. Have a nasty fight with your wife? Call your ex a bitch as you break up? Have a consensual BDSM relationship? Have an amour fou on again/off again thing with all the hysteria that comes with? Dum dum dum...here come the professionalism gestapo to kick you out of medical school

I agree the guy was being a clown, and probably deserved the arrest and a decent sized fine. I don't think this type of incident has much, if any, bearing on his fitness to practice medicine.

Point well made, if unrelated to my post.

 

[Goro]

Every stupid thing you do off the clock and away a place where you're providing care doesn't a priori fall within a reasonable purview of "professionalism"

Note at my program, there is currently a push to bring "having healthy relationships" under the umbrella of professionalism. Have a nasty fight with your wife? Call your ex a bitch as you break up? Have a consensual BDSM relationship? Have an amour fou on again/off again thing with all the hysteria that comes with? Dum dum dum...here come the professionalism gestapo to kick you out of medical school

I agree the guy was being a clown, and probably deserved the arrest and a decent sized fine. I don't think this type of incident has much, if any, bearing on his fitness to practice medicine.

These unhealthy issues you have with authority are worrisome for your clinical years and residency.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

A great example of my previous posts about professional dress. Like it or not, like pro athletes, you are representing your school or professional practice when you are "off duty". Plenty of people might not want this doctor,showing poor judgement, taking care of their family. Will he be using good judgement when he is taking care of my 4 yr old daughter? He might be able, but will he?

 

[ACSurgeon]

These unhealthy issues you have with authority are worrisome for your clinical years and residency.

You can play the game while internally rejecting authority figures that are over the top... you just can’t do anything about it until you’re done.

 

[ACSurgeon]

The rapist in your article is black, by the way. Just pointing it out so that people don't try to have it both ways. If this article is supposed to be representative of "Texas justice" the way you're trying to paint it, then we must also conclude Texas justice treats African Americans with kid gloves and slaps on the wrist.

I was kidding about Texas. My point is that just because a doctor got away with a crime we shouldn’t conclude that doctors get away with a lot. People of different backgrounds get away things in our system for a variety of reasons. You’ve actually helped make my point.

 

[Goro]

A great example of my previous posts about professional dress. Like it or not, like pro athletes, you are representing your school or professional practice when you are "off duty". Plenty of people might not want this doctor,showing poor judgement, taking care of their family. Will he be using good judgement when he is taking care of my 4 yr old daughter? He might be able, but will he?

Agree 100%.

What a lot of people don't realize that once you put on that white coat, it sticks to you.

 

[nimbus]

If you think your doctor is a risk because he got mouthy with cops while on vacation in Florida, I got nothing for you.

He’s not just mouthy...he’s at the extreme of the bell curve. Millions of passengers are inconvenienced and don’t act like attention seeking idiots. Have you acted this way at an airport? Ever come close? Most of us are grownups and wouldn’t even consider it. If someone can’t control their impulses they deserve to be treated like the child that they are. It happens in the hospital all the time. Act like a child and throw a tantrum and you will be “handled” by security. I don’t have time for disruptive idiots where I work. I’m sure airport employees feel likewise.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Admins enforcing their social and political views as rebranded "professionalism" is eventually going to get weighed in on by the USSC. Its misappropriation of public funds and wildly unconstitutional.

I wouldn't hold me breath on this one

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Admins enforcing their social and political views as rebranded "professionalism" is eventually going to get weighed in on by the USSC. Its misappropriation of public funds and wildly unconstitutional.

Interesting theory but incorrect. Grove City College went to the US Supreme court because of the strict religious and conduct rules they impose and they won. Not all colleges and med schools are public,( govt) institutions. You dont have as many rights at school, or at work as you do in public. Note the NBA and rules for standing during the anthem. I have 1st ammendment rights, but I can think of several words I could utter at school which would result in my dismissal. Hence dress code, attendance, and behaviour all allowable under the law. There is SCOUTUS precedent for this

 

[Angus Avagadro]

Interesting theory but incorrect. Grove City College went to the US Supreme court because of the strict religious and conduct rules they impose and they won. Not all colleges and med schools are public,( govt) institutions. You dont have as many rights at school, or at work as you do in public. Note the NBA and rules for standing during the anthem. I have 1st ammendment rights, but I can think of several words I could utter at school which would result in my dismissal. Hence dress code, attendance, and behaviour all allowable under the law. There is SCOUTUS precedent for this

The gov't's case was based on the fact the school received gov't student loans, hence govt aid ,therefore had to follow govt rules for admission and diversity. And the school won.

 

[Angus Avagadro]

If you think your doctor is a risk because he got mouthy with cops while on vacation in Florida, I got nothing for you.

The doctor may not be a risk, but his judgement certainly is, especially on film. I dont think this episode in his life will end up being a practice enhancer. He could get fired. Look what happens when people behave badly on social media.

 

[Raney Schauer]

You can play the game while internally rejecting authority figures that are over the top... you just can’t do anything about it until you’re done.

Can't really do much about it after, either.

 

[operaman]

Admins enforcing their social and political views as rebranded "professionalism" is eventually going to get weighed in on by the USSC. Its misappropriation of public funds and wildly unconstitutional.

Actually this sort of litigation favors the school in almost all cases. Here’s why: any challenge to these policies will ultimately come down to a medical student or group of students asking a judge or group of judges to say that a faculty of physician educators who have been training physicians for years are no longer capable of deciding who is worthy and capable of practicing medicine. Furthermore, it asks the judges to say, in effect, that they as attorneys and judges are now better equipped to decide who is worthy of being a physician than a faculty of physicians. So far, the courts have been unwilling to make this leap.

Mandating professional behavior in relationships with others seems right in line with overall reasonable standards of professionalism that are already in force if not explicitly delineated.

 

[ACSurgeon]

Can't really do much about it after, either.

At least as an attending you can speak up or leave and go somewhere else. As a student or resident you are stuck at your institution and can’t express your dissatisfaction with your superiors.

I hear what you’re saying about our current state of employed physicians and you’re gonna have to take crap one way or another. Still, you have some choice as an attending.

 

[ACSurgeon]

Can't really do much about it after, either.

Also as an attending you can take on a leadership roll and effect change eventually

 

[atomi]

Every stupid thing you do off the clock and away a place where you're providing care doesn't a priori fall within a reasonable purview of "professionalism"

Note at my program, there is currently a push to bring "having healthy relationships" under the umbrella of professionalism. Have a nasty fight with your wife? Call your ex a bitch as you break up? Have a consensual BDSM relationship? Have an amour fou on again/off again thing with all the hysteria that comes with? Dum dum dum...here come the professionalism gestapo to kick you out of medical school

I agree the guy was being a clown, and probably deserved the arrest and a decent sized fine. I don't think this type of incident has much, if any, bearing on his fitness to practice medicine.

With you 100%. Mob justice is completely out of control in this country. People on Twitter think they can determine appropriate sentences based on incindeary headlines alone with zero knowledge of the law or facts of the case. In a weird sense of schadenfreude, people want to see doctors and other highly educated persons professionally assassinated for minor crimes that have nothing to do with their ability to perform their craft. Rehabilitation anyone? Second chances? Nah screw it. Let’s make them common thugs and throw em in the system. What a waste to society. But hey it makes regular bozos on Twitter feel better about themselves.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

With you 100%. Mob justice is completely out of control in this country. People on Twitter think they can determine appropriate sentences based on incindeary headlines alone with zero knowledge of the law or facts of the case. In a weird sense of schadenfreude, people want to see doctors and other highly educated persons professionally assassinated for minor crimes that have nothing to do with their ability to perform their craft. Rehabilitation anyone? Second chances? Nah screw it. Let’s make them common thugs and throw em in the system. What a waste to society. But hey it makes regular bozos on Twitter feel better about themselves.

So before I dive into this, are you talking about the crap this jackass is going to catch on social/regular media, or the actual punishment he might get from his state medical board?

Because if the former, I'm completely with you.

If the latter, this guy at worst has bought himself a reprimand and a psych eval. Not too much to ask for essentially a temper tantrum in one of the worst places to do that.

 

[sloop]

If the latter, this guy at worst has bought himself a reprimand and a psych eval. Not too much to ask for essentially a temper tantrum in one of the worst places to do that.

It would be irresponsible to try to diagnose someone from across the Internet, but I will say that this guy’s behavior is strikingly similar to that of bipolar people I have admitted in manic or mixed episodes. There are also a lot of other things this could be, but all in all a psych eval seems appropriate.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

It would be irresponsible to try to diagnose someone from across the Internet, but I will say that this guy’s behavior is strikingly similar to that of bipolar people I have admitted in manic or mixed episodes. There are also a lot of other things this could be, but all in all a psych eval seems appropriate.

$100 says some flavor of Axis 2

 

[kb1900]

$100 says some flavor of Axis 2

Does medical knowledge/education make a psych eval harder to evaluate? Aka can someone with psychopathologies come across as normal if they know their stuff?

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Lol axis 2 is something that produces pervasive, long term problems with someone professionally and in relationships.

The guy had a Kenny Powers moment. From the follow up video, he's embarrassed and it looks like it was a lapse.

Yes because there are no Axis 2 physicians out there.

Thanks for your wise contribution.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

You'd need some sort of evidence that it were having pervasive impact to diagnose axis 2. Which you have no way of knowing from a single isolated incident.

Which is why I am betting on that and not officially diagnosing it in my capacity as a licensed physician

 

[appalachian_man]

"If you're going to do this to a white doctor, who's 59-years-old, for doing nothing, then why would black people trust you?," Epstein said.

While speaking with WESH 2 News outside of the jail, Epstein began speaking about his political views.

"I’m a conservative Republican, I’m a Trump guy. But until the police fix this problem, I don’t blame black people for being upset when they get arrested."

And the 2018 Smoothest Bullsh***er Award goes to...

But in all seriousness, hard to tell if that was a backpedal or if he consciously made that decision in the moment. In the video (and mugshot) it looks like he's drunk/out of it, so who knows. Guy is a clown.

 

[Money Moniker]

"If you're going to do this to a white doctor, who's 59-years-old, for doing nothing, then why would black people trust you?," Epstein said.

While speaking with WESH 2 News outside of the jail, Epstein began speaking about his political views.

"I’m a conservative Republican, I’m a Trump guy. But until the police fix this problem, I don’t blame black people for being upset when they get arrested."

lmao, this liberal loon tries to bolster the SJW agenda, bash the police, make Trump voters look bad, and save his own arse all in one fell swoop. The chutzpah on this Epstein dude is off the charts. GTFO "fellow conservative Trump guy".

 

[Raney Schauer]

At least as an attending you can speak up or leave and go somewhere else.

That's what I'm saying. That's about the best you can do. Do that enough and you eventually learn that the grass is always greener over the septic tank. You find that you have really relatively few options: become what you loathe and fight and stab backs and try to win the rat race to be the HMFIC, settle for the situation that you gives you the least heartburn, give up on trying to find Shangri-La, self employ and wear every hat, or give the world the finger and go all hoodie and sunglasses in a log cabin in the woods. The world is your oyster. If you have a shellfish allergy, you're pooned.

 

[sloop]

$100 says some flavor of Axis 2

Could be. Like I said I think this is basically impossible to figure out from the snapshot we have. I probably shouldn't have speculated on it at all.

I especially tend to cringe at quickly labelling people with personality disorders. We all have some dimensional "stuff" that contributes to how we behave—some more than others. There are definitely people whose personalities are the core causes of such issues, but I worry that calling things personality is often a way of summarily condemning people based on the assumption that their extreme behavior is characterological in origin.

Lol axis 2 is something that produces pervasive, long term problems with someone professionally and in relationships.

The guy had a Kenny Powers moment. From the follow up video, he's embarrassed and it looks like it was a lapse.

Pretty sure he knows this. He's speculating, as I was, with all the implied caveats of thinking about someone you've never examined carries.

If any off-clock, away from care site speech and behavior is fair game - including conduct occurring within context of consensual private, intimate relationships - what isn't fair game? How about full access to the mental health records of physicians meeting with therapiststs?

Let's fast forward 50 years or so and just say, hypothetically, that there are devices capable of reading minds.

A physician has a culturally insensitive thought, a sexual thought about a coworker, or an unprofessional thought about an obese patient.

Does this get brought in as well?

Look, nobody is saying that physicians don't have a right to privacy. Having a meltdown in an airport is different from somebody stealing your diary in order to professionally assassinate you.

If you publicly have a meltdown, your image as a professional is already tarnished in the eyes of patients who need to see their physicians as stable, organized, competent people in order to feel safe in treatment (whether all physicians actually are these things is a different story, but generally patients need to feel this is the case). The hospital you work for and in some cases the medical board will also have an interest in that they are the ones who allow you to continue to work, so their actions have bearing on this and they wind up associated with you based on their decisions. When something like this happens, something has to be done to remedy personal and professional image. What that entails can be a matter of discussion.

 

[WingedOx]

"Epstein, a doctor in Lakeland, spoke with WESH 2 News after being released from jail."

aaaand I think I found the source of the problem here.

 

[WingedOx]

It would be irresponsible to try to diagnose someone from across the Internet, but I will say that this guy’s behavior is strikingly similar to that of bipolar people I have admitted in manic or mixed episodes. There are also a lot of other things this could be, but all in all a psych eval seems appropriate.

"I'm here because I made a public ass of myself" is always my favorite type of intake.

/and these cases are almost never bipolar. We need to quit calling every meltdown a mixed episode (not accusing you of it, but I've seen it enough: Stretching the bounds of an axis I dx when the raging personality disorder is right in front of you). Unfortunately "a narcissist having a bad day" doesn't code well into ICD10.

 

[sloop]

"I'm here because I made a public ass of myself" is always my favorite type of intake.

/and these cases are almost never bipolar. We need to quit calling every meltdown a mixed episode (not accusing you of it, but I've seen it enough: Stretching the bounds of an axis I dx when the raging personality disorder is right in front of you). Unfortunately "a narcissist having a bad day" doesn't code well into ICD10.

I can see this too. I think I see more genuine bipolar patients with this sort of presentation because I have only done inpatient (and most of my time has been on what is essentially an affective floor), haven’t yet rotated in the ED, and I’m at a great program where the upper levels and ED attendings really do a great job of culling the stuff that’s not pure personality.

 

[RNthenDoc]

"Epstein, a doctor in Lakeland, spoke with WESH 2 News after being released from jail."

aaaand I think I found the source of the problem here.

Polk county’s major exports are said to be amphetamines and domestic dispute.

 

[WingedOx]

Polk county’s major exports are said to be amphetamines and domestic dispute.

People Of Lesser Knowledge

 

[RNthenDoc]

I’ve always said FL is the craziest state in the union. It’s New York/California on the coasts, and Alabama inland.

 

[deleted480308]

"Epstein, a doctor in Lakeland, spoke with WESH 2 News after being released from jail."

aaaand I think I found the source of the problem here.

Polk county baby

 

[libertyyne]

I’ve always said FL is the craziest state in the union. It’s New York/California on the coasts, and Alabama inland.

I thought it had to do with some weird state freedom of informan act. Don't worry the rest of America is just as nutty if not more. Florida just has its bad behavior in the open. How Florida's Proud Open Government Laws Lead to the Shame of "Florida Man" News Stories

 

[Zebra Hunter]

Is no one going to comment on how hilarious the video was? “THEY’RE TREATING ME LIKE A BLACK PERSON!!!” It was like something out of a mid 2000s Will Ferrel movie.