Doctors who aren’t Physicians?

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HoosierdaddyO

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I always find it funny that people who aren’t Physicians are always the ones who demand being called “Doctor”... if they have some other doctorate degree. Wether they are nurses who got a doctorate in some healthcare admin BS degree (not the school version of BS lol) or Dr. Jill Biden being called Dr at every turn of the page. What’s y’all opinion on this matter. And does it do any disservice to the medical field having nurses calling themselves “Doctors” to patients etc. or having other careers walking around being called “Dr. of such and such”...
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I mean I don't really care that much, personally, but I think it's a little weird and a bit ego-trippy. I don't even introduce myself as "doctor" outside of the ER so when a non-clinical "doctor" does it's a bit cringey, but whatever, you do you.

The only time I truly get annoyed is when they'll say "as a doctor..." then proceed to try and use that title to validate their opinion.
 
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JacobMcCandles said:
If it's in a healthcare setting, the only people who should be calling themselves doctors are physicians. In a social setting, anyone that refers to themselves as doctor is nobody that I want to associate with.
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There was a PA I worked with who would introduce himself as "Doctor [first name]." We put an end to that practice real quick.
 
Yea it’s all setting related. My step-dad has a doctorate in school psychology. When he goes to his PCP or goes to the local sports bar he sure as hell doesn’t introduce himself as doctor. That’d be weird.

But when he’s telling a family their kid has dyslexia or giving a talk at a benefit he always introduces himself as doctor, as he should.

The Biden thing is a separate weird situation where it seems to be people who don’t know her on TV referring to her as Dr Biden. Which, sure, whatever. Its TV, they’ll do anything to make things slightly more eye catchy.
 
Agree about only physicians using doctor in a clinical context. I don't understand though why people are mad at Jill Biden - if a professor uses Dr in a professional academic context to underline that they have a PhD in what they are teaching about I see that as completely appropriate. Thats the way it was at my undergrad and seems totally normal, and I think people understand from the context. I also notice that its fairly common for certain preachers and reverends to use it as well, which everyone understands in context.
 
I recently had a patient introduce himself along the lines of “I’m a doctor too! I have a juris doctorate, I do malpractice law!”

Well good evening doctor. Which body part would you like an unnecessary CT scan of this evening?
 
Yes people with doctorate degrees have the right to call themselves Dr Smith. Why is that controversial?!

An RN getting a PhD is not BS for example.

And actually the term doctor was first for academics/PhD from my understanding so us doctors should be the ones being shamed for using the term! Lol.
 
AMEHigh said:
Yes people with doctorate degrees have the right to call themselves Dr Smith. Why is that controversial?!

An RN getting a PhD is not BS for example.

And actually the term doctor was first for academics/PhD from my understanding so us doctors should be the ones being shamed for using the term! Lol.
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It's not that someone doesn't have the "right" to request others call them "Dr". It's that it's cringey and weird in a non-professional setting.
 
AMEHigh said:
Yes people with doctorate degrees have the right to call themselves Dr Smith. Why is that controversial?!

An RN getting a PhD is not BS for example.

And actually the term doctor was first for academics/PhD from my understanding so us doctors should be the ones being shamed for using the term! Lol.
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You're correct. Doctor comes from the latin docere (teach) and the initial meaning of doctor was one who teaches.
 
turkeyjerky said:
It's not that someone doesn't have the "right" to request others call them "Dr". It's that it's cringey and weird in a non-professional setting.
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Oh I thought we were talking about professional settings?
No I don’t expect my friends to call me Dr nor do I call any of my friends with MD/DO, PhDs, DPTs, etc doctoring when we’re hanging out. I didn’t think that was a universal thing?
 
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The thing with Jill Biden is that she insists on being called "Dr". It's not someone who was being deferential and obsequious who started that. Mark Esper has a PhD, but he wasn't called "Dr. Esper" as SecDef. Jimmy Carter's SecDef was Dr. Harold Brown, who was a nuclear physicist (he led the team at Lawrence Livermore Nat Labs that made nuclear weapons small enough to go on submarines). It was in respect to his skills and accomplishments - he didn't insist on it. That is likewise with Henry Kissinger; he has a PhD from Harvard, but doesn't correct people to call him "Dr". What has Jill Biden done with her Ed.D? She is not widely known or respected as a leading educator; her claim to fame is being married to Joe.

Mostly here, we are medical doctors - in all my years here, when someone would play the "doctor" card, there would be near universal derision and mockery. If we, who have the most social cachet to be referred to as "Dr", and we don't do it, it becomes easily evident when someone else insists on it, especially the more specious it is.
 
I give more respect to someone earning a doctorate by defending a dissertation than someone getting the title by just merely attending school (like a medical doctor). Like others, I don't introduce myself as doctor outside of work. Actually, I don't even introduce myself as doctor to patients. I introduce myself by first and last name. I insist that places do not put "Dr" as my title when they are registering me (hotels, personal physician, etc.).
 
southerndoc said:
I give more respect to someone earning a doctorate by defending a dissertation than someone getting the title by just merely attending school (like a medical doctor).
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The hardest thing about professional school (med, law) is getting in. The hardest thing about grad school is getting out. The pound of flesh gets paid at one time or another, but it always happens.
 
Apollyon said:
But you're in the buckle of the bible belt. The only place I was asked to pray for, or saw another doctor pray with pts was in the South.
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I've prayed with patients before when they or their family members have asked.
 
Dr Mantis Toboggan said:
Yup I’m super casual too.

“Hi I’m Mantis, your ED doc, what can I help with today?”
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Nope. I'm Dr Birds and would get pissed if a patient calls me by my first name.
Outside of work I would of course I'm Angry and would never say "Hi I'm Dr..."

Thats usually done by people with diploma mill degrees, since that's why they did it.
 
I once called the dealership to get my car scheduled for service and said "Hi, this is Dr. southerndoc." I felt like a total douche. Guess it was habit from calling the lab so much that day (I was at work when I called the dealership). I do identify myself as doctor when I call someone within the hospital (lab, radiology, etc.) because if I don't, they tend to love to put you on hold as soon as they answer.
 
southerndoc said:
I once called the dealership to get my car scheduled for service and said "Hi, this is Dr. southerndoc." I felt like a total douche. Guess it was habit from calling the lab so much that day (I was at work when I called the dealership). I do identify myself as doctor when I call someone within the hospital (lab, radiology, etc.) because if I don't, they tend to love to put you on hold as soon as they answer.
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This is exactly right. You need to assert authority in the hospital in order to run a tight ship.
 
I definitely think that with the increase in NPs and PAs we should be identifying ourselves as doctor to patients. I also understand when women and minorities make a point to do that and wear a white coat cause people will call them nurse otherwise ( and even then the patient might still call them nurse)
 
I don't really buy this idea that non-medical professionals who have doctorates should introduce themselves as "doctor". I had some professors in undergrad who did it. Most didn't and were fine being called by their first name. We can argue that they have "the right" to do it, but doesn't mean it's tasteful. Most of the time I find it cringe worthy. That goes for Jill Biden as well.

I introduce myself as a doctor to my patients. Not because I am "better" or am super smart for going to medical school, or because I have a doctorate. It's because it identifies me to the patient as the person who is leading their care and making medical decisions and guiding treatment. I'm sure there are tons of physicians who identify themselves as doctor because of the ego trip, or have their airline tickets booked as "doctor" so and so, which is pretty obnoxious, and makes them just as bad as everyone else.

We shouldn't be playing along with all of the games that the NPs/PAs etc want us to play, namely that "I have a doctorate so I can introduce myself as doctor" which is purely 100% disingenuous. These arguments, as well as others such as the fact that phrase comes from the latin derivation meaning to "teach" is also BS and just manipulation on the part of others. The vast majority of people who are calling themselves doctor are not doing it for the purposes of informing the patient or the person they are lecturing to, they are doing it to present themselves as "equivalent to a medical physician" or "I'm insecure with myself but you should know I am extremely well accomplished".

If I went to a lecture on an undergrad campus and listened to a sociology lecture from a professor, I would assume they are well educated on the topic. I don't need to know they are a "doctor", and I don't think it really matters. If I see PhD after their name, they are likely an expert in my eyes, and them calling themselves doctor does not lead to any more credibility.

Society has a whole has an understanding of what the term means. Maybe it's been propagated through TV or other cultural avenues, but regardless, people who call themselves doctors who aren't physicians come off to me as being really insecure, when they shouldn't be. They sure as hell know a lot more about a lot of things compared to me.
 
The insecurity on this thread is revealing. Like the MDs are clinging to the title "doctor" for dear life. Like it's all there is anymore. Assert your authority and it will be respected regardless of your title.

When I practiced, I only used the title Dr with patients, not staff or admin. Certainly don't use it now being outside of medicine. But really don't care if anyone with an MD or PhD chooses to. To care about this would reveal an underlying insecurity where my self worth is rooted in my title.

I've said this on another thread, but the suits have us MDs now pitted against the PhDs, arguing about this garbage all while they're walking away with all your hard earned loot.
 
AMEHigh said:
And actually the term doctor was first for academics/PhD from my understanding so us doctors should be the ones being shamed for using the term! Lol.
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This is a common mistake. PhDs and other academics actually did not start using the title dr until much later (partly because the PhD didn’t exist until much later). The title was first used within the church to refer to apostles and other theologians who taught the Bible. The church then also granted licenses to teach in medieval universities.

The original three disciplines granted the title doctor were theology, law, and medicine. It extended outside of those fields later, and once the PhD came into existence, they started using the title (and originally, they only were granted a PhD and the title doctor after mastery and usually in middle age).
 
UrbanEM2 said:
The insecurity on this thread is revealing. Like the MDs are clinging to the title "doctor" for dear life. Like it's all there is anymore. Assert your authority and it will be respected regardless of your title.

When I practiced, I only used the title Dr with patients, not staff or admin. Certainly don't use it now being outside of medicine. But really don't care if anyone with an MD or PhD chooses to. To care about this would reveal an underlying insecurity where my self worth is rooted in my title.
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...pretty much everyone on here has said they don't care for the title. They simply use it to avoid ambiguity in the health setting, as you did. Surely you are familiar with the patient who later complains that he "never saw the doctor." Or the radiology tech who only gives you lip service until you introduce yourself as the physician?

In a big hospital setting, it's for clarity, not conceit.
 
Using the title "Dr." depends on the setting. It is appropriate to identify yourself as an expert (using the title of "Dr.") depending on that setting. This includes the clinical setting for MDs, research setting for science PhDs, classroom setting for humanities PhDs, etc.

Also, not all doctorates are created the same. Some are very difficult to earn and they qualify you as an expert in that field. Others are less rigorous and border on "pay to play."

One tell-tale sign of the difference is funding. Most respectable science and humanities PhDs are fully funded with a living stipend provided for by the university. On the other hand, the less reputable doctorates are funded by the student and usually have a lower bar of entry, less supervision, no general examinations, etc.

The difference is huge and I honestly think the latter should not be allowed to operate.

Doctorates geared towards "executives" and "professionals" tend to be less rigorous and are therefore less respected, which includes many (all?) nursing doctorates as well as some/many (but not all) education doctorates, although this does not apply across the board. Overall, I would never consider a professional doctorate or an EdD at the same level as the standard PhD, although I think the title "Dr." is still appropriate in the right setting, as long as it is not a "pay to play" degree.

In my view, a psychology research PhD that is fully funded by a respectable university is more respectable than a PsyD, a professional doctorate, that the student pays for.

So, it's really hard to generalize here.
 
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Angry Birds said:
Overall, I would never consider a professional doctorate or an EdD at the same level as the standard PhD, although I think the title "Dr." is still appropriate in the right setting, as long as it is not a "pay to play" degree.
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Agree with you, but technically an EdD is a research and professional degree (though depending on what school you get it from, the research component may be a joke).

Do you consider the MD or DO equivalent to a PhD, even though they are professional degrees?
 
HoosierdaddyO said:
I always find it funny that people who aren’t Physicians are always the ones who demand being called “Doctor”... if they have some other doctorate degree. Wether they are nurses who got a doctorate in some healthcare admin BS degree (not the school version of BS lol) or Dr. Jill Biden being called Dr at every turn of the page. What’s y’all opinion on this matter. And does it do any disservice to the medical field having nurses calling themselves “Doctors” to patients etc. or having other careers walking around being called “Dr. of such and such”...
Click to expand...

what bothers me is lumping every person who is part of health care delivery and calling them health care providers. As a result I’m not referred to as doctor.

however I will say that I’m always referred to as “Dr.” when I’m individually talking to administration.
 
Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
This is a common mistake. PhDs and other academics actually did not start using the title dr until much later (partly because the PhD didn’t exist until much later). The title was first used within the church to refer to apostles and other theologians who taught the Bible. The church then also granted licenses to teach in medieval universities.

The original three disciplines granted the title doctor were theology, law, and medicine. It extended outside of those fields later, and once the PhD came into existence, they started using the title (and originally, they only were granted a PhD and the title doctor after mastery and usually in middle age).
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Thanks for sharing!
 
Mushdoc said:
I definitely think that with the increase in NPs and PAs we should be identifying ourselves as doctor to patients. I also understand when women and minorities make a point to do that and wear a white coat cause people will call them nurse otherwise ( and even then the patient might still call them nurse)
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Or the transport person or cleaning person. I got those often during residency when I worked in the hospital.

And to be clear I of course expect doctors to identify themselves as doctors. I also have no problem when people with other doctorate degrees also use doctor in professional settings. Really not my hill to die on.
 
BAM! said:
...pretty much everyone on here has said they don't care for the title. They simply use it to avoid ambiguity in the health setting, as you did. Surely you are familiar with the patient who later complains that he "never saw the doctor." Or the radiology tech who only gives you lip service until you introduce yourself as the physician?

In a big hospital setting, it's for clarity, not conceit.
Click to expand...
If not one cares for the title, why care if others use it?

If someone with a PhD in education or history choses to use the title "Doctor", even socially, how does that detract from your capabilities or skills? Why are you all so threatened?

Again, while you're fighting against your history brethren, the admin have labeled you a "provider" and stripped you of all respect. Not to mention taken all your loot.
 
UrbanEM2 said:
If not one cares for the title, why care if others use it?

If someone with a PhD in education or history choses to use the title "Doctor", even socially, how does that detract from your capabilities or skills? Why are you all so threatened?

Again, while you're fighting against your history brethren, the admin have labeled you a "provider" and stripped you of all respect. Not to mention taken all your loot.
Click to expand...

Who is threatened by a PhD using the title dr at party?
 
UrbanEM2 said:
If not one cares for the title, why care if others use it?

If someone with a PhD in education or history choses to use the title "Doctor", even socially, how does that detract from your capabilities or skills? Why are you all so threatened?

Again, while you're fighting against your history brethren, the admin have labeled you a "provider" and stripped you of all respect. Not to mention taken all your loot.
Click to expand...
No one is threatened, but it's tacky to introduce yourself as doctor socially no matter the method you obtained the title.
 
UrbanEM2 said:
If someone with a PhD in education or history choses to use the title "Doctor", even socially, how does that detract from your capabilities or skills? Why are you all so threatened?
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who says they are threatened? Did I miss that one post? Most say they think it’s corny to use their title as Dr. in a social setting. However in their own professional setting it’s fine.
 
No one needed to say they were threatened. It's just obvious by reading the whole thread. There's a lot of things that are corny, but they don't get involved threads like this.

I agree calling yourself "doctor" socially is corny. But why do you even care? Let alone care enough to be discussing this during the holidays on an online forum when you could be spending time with loved ones or doing something productive? In one ear out the other. Given all the actual serious problems the specialty faces, PhDs introducing themselves as "doctor" socially deserves zero bandwidth. It inflicts zero harm to anyone here and does nothing to diminish your skills or value. So again I ask, why do you care?

I once knew a vascular surgery chair that always introduced himself as "doctor" even at parties. No one, even other doctors, seemed to care. He now lives in a retirement community where everyone calls him "The Doctor". Why is this any different?
 
I dunno man I don't agree with your interpretation. I don't sense much threat. I read between the lines on this thread and it's more annoyance. There are lots of threats to EM which are well documented but having people with doctorates calling themselves "Doctors" is not one of them. I think you are reading too much into this thread. Remember we are, including you, a bunch of anonymous people talking about fairly specific things and sometimes people just want to vent. It doesn't mean there are deeper psychological things going on with participants in this thread.

If the standard for posting something is caring, as you wrote above "But why do you even care?", there most of the threads would be obviated as they wouldn't reach that standard.
 
thegenius said:
I dunno man I don't agree with your interpretation. I don't sense much threat. I read between the lines on this thread and it's more annoyance. There are lots of threats to EM which are well documented but having people with doctorates calling themselves "Doctors" is not one of them. I think you are reading too much into this thread. Remember we are, including you, a bunch of anonymous people talking about fairly specific things and sometimes people just want to vent. It doesn't mean there are deeper psychological things going on with participants in this thread.

If the standard for posting something is caring, as you wrote above "But why do you even care?", there most of the threads would be obviated as they wouldn't reach that standard.
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You have a good point. As a newcomer, I probably am reading too much into most things on this forum. Rather than anything serious, anonymous forums can just be grounds for fun and robust debate and discussion we wouldn't waste our precious time with friends and colleagues on.

Carry on.
 
UrbanEM2 said:
You have a good point. As a newcomer, I probably am reading too much into most things on this forum. Rather than anything serious, anonymous forums can just be grounds for fun and robust debate and discussion we wouldn't waste our precious time with friends and colleagues on.

Carry on.
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I don't know what kinds of friends you have if you can't have "fun and robust debate and discussion" with them - or, maybe you consider that to be a "waste" of time. That would be unfortunate.
 
Apollyon said:
I don't know what kinds of friends you have if you can't have "fun and robust debate and discussion" with them - or, maybe you consider that to be a "waste" of time. That would be unfortunate.
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Our "fun and robust waste of time" discussions don't usually involve dumping on others for whatever reason. These conversations with my friends usually focus on bodily sounds and odors. You know, those things that generally don't involve putting others down.
 
UrbanEM2 said:
I once knew a vascular surgery chair that always introduced himself as "doctor" even at parties. No one, even other doctors, seemed to care. He now lives in a retirement community where everyone calls him "The Doctor". Why is this any different?
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By the way, I'm just curious. What do you think the average person thought when they were introduced for the first time to Dr. Vascular Surgeon? They may not have said anything out loud, but I bet the average person probably thought

"Why does that doctor go around asking people to address him as Doctor...at a social cocktail party? What happened in his life to make him so insecure? It's so weird." And then they would forget about it and continue mingling.

My guess is most people who knew him casually didn't address him as "Doctor" the next time they saw him in a social context. I know I wouldn't if we were at a cocktail party and I only knew him casually. Seems weird.

Now I could be wrong. Maybe everyone happily called him "Dr. Vascular Surgeon" all the time.
 
thegenius said:
By the way, I'm just curious. What do you think the average person thought when they were introduced for the first time to Dr. Vascular Surgeon? They may not have said anything out loud, but I bet the average person probably thought

"Why does that doctor go around asking people to address him as Doctor...at a social cocktail party? What happened in his life to make him so insecure? It's so weird." And then they would forget about it and continue mingling.

My guess is most people who knew him casually didn't address him as "Doctor" the next time they saw him in a social context. I know I wouldn't if we were at a cocktail party and I only knew him casually. Seems weird.

Now I could be wrong. Maybe everyone happily called him "Dr. Vascular Surgeon" all the time.
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I know someone who is called "dr. mike" by like everyone who knows him (except his family) despite him never introducing himself that way. He just gets introduced like that and people go along with it even if he says to just call him mike. It may not seem that way in the ED, but a lot of people still think being a physician is like being an astronaut.
 
Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
Agree with you, but technically an EdD is a research and professional degree (though depending on what school you get it from, the research component may be a joke).

Do you consider the MD or DO equivalent to a PhD, even though they are professional degrees?
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An MD is a professional degree and not equivalent to a PhD, in my opinion.
Technically, I consider a PhD to be a higher degree. An MD is a doctorate like the JD.
But, the MD degree is respected more (than either a PhD or JD) due to the fact of saving lives.
 
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