Does anyone actually like the HPSP program?

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Ydangerzone

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Maybe it's just me, but most of the posts in military medicine are pretty negative. I DON'T want to start an argument with ANYONE -

I would just like to hear any feedback from those who actually enjoy/don't mind/ are grateful/happy with/ etc the HPSP program.

Thanks! I've heard lots of the negative, what about the positives besides money and no malpractice. What is military life like? Is it really that bad?

Thanks!
 
Ydangerzone said:
Maybe it's just me, but most of the posts in military medicine are pretty negative. I DON'T want to start an argument with ANYONE -

I would just like to hear any feedback from those who actually enjoy/don't mind/ are grateful/happy with/ etc the HPSP program.

Thanks! I've heard lots of the negative, what about the positives besides money and no malpractice. What is military life like? Is it really that bad?

Thanks!

I really like the HPSP. I was former enlisted, so this is actually a forward move for me. I have nothing bad to say about the AF. Just make sure that you go in with your eyes open, or you will probably be disappointed or disgruntled in the long run. In fact now that I'm a civilian again, both my husband and I miss me being on active duty.

And I feel that I've got the best of both worlds. I go to a really expensive med school while the AF pays, and I get to pursue my lifelong dream. I couldn't possibly be happier with my life!

Good luck to you on your quest.

Cyndi
 
Ydangerzone said:
Maybe it's just me, but most of the posts in military medicine are pretty negative. I DON'T want to start an argument with ANYONE -

I would just like to hear any feedback from those who actually enjoy/don't mind/ are grateful/happy with/ etc the HPSP program.

Thanks! I've heard lots of the negative, what about the positives besides money and no malpractice. What is military life like? Is it really that bad?

Thanks!

Happy and grateful. Like Cdreed, I'm prior too so I knew what to expect and I can't wait to get back out to the fleet again. I find the biggest appeal is the people in the military. The camaraderie, the friendships, and the teamwork.....all part of something bigger than our individual selfish existence.....that's the appeal for me. My wife misses active duty life too, for the same reason also.
 
Ydangerzone said:
I would just like to hear any feedback from those who actually enjoy/don't mind/ are grateful/happy with/ etc the HPSP program.

I promise I won't argue with anyone. I just wanted to point out that every positive poster about HPSP you will find on this forum is a med student or junior resident. When evaluating their praise, I would take that into account. I am yet to see a positive and happy attending, except for maybe NavyDiveDoc who's MIA and I'm not exactly sure how positive he was :laugh:. Still, if you look up some of the older posts, you'll probably be able to find some positives.
 
If you read my posts carefully, you'll see that there are a lot of things I like about being in the military. Overall, it's a very positive experience. I just don't intend to stay in the military for 20 years. If someone tells you that they do intend to do so before they've been out in the fleet and seen/experienced the actual good deals and bad deals, then they're probably still a newbie.

For what it's worth, my husband is a USU grad, has been a GMO, is a fellowship trained attending (surgery), done multiple deployments greenside and blueside, and he intends to stay for the 20, today anyway. (He's down to single digits for commitment..)

Off to Key West.

Trix
 
There are MANY positive HPSP & USUHS physicians both active & now civilian. What you get here is the "other side" of the recruiters...."stories". You'll hear plenty of the greatness of the military from recruiters and just about anyone else, however on this end you'll get the other side. The truth is naturally somewhere in the middle. Search the archives and you'll find plenty of ying and yang.

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE....when you read, hear, speak to someone about HPSP ensure they are currently on active duty. While good intentioned a med student, intern, & some residents....haven't got a clue YET. The best source is...actually new idea...do this:

-Speak to everyone about HPSP.
-Make a note where they are in their HPSP journey
-Chart/graph their fulfillment, expectations, satisfaction at the point they currently are

My hypothesis is the more junior the person the higher everything is. I think the most satisfied will be traditional (26year old), single, athletic, males. :idea:
 
Ydangerzone said:
Maybe it's just me, but most of the posts in military medicine are pretty negative. I DON'T want to start an argument with ANYONE -

I would just like to hear any feedback from those who actually enjoy/don't mind/ are grateful/happy with/ etc the HPSP program.

Thanks! I've heard lots of the negative, what about the positives besides money and no malpractice. What is military life like? Is it really that bad?

Thanks!

I'm glad to be in the HPSP program. I spent 7 years active duty as an officer prior to going to med school. HPSP was a great way to change careers.
 
Neuronix said:
I just wanted to point out that every positive poster about HPSP you will find on this forum is a med student or junior resident. .

Could this possibly be due to the fact that this is the student doctor network??? I don't know a lot of attendings that mess around on internet message boards.
 
delicatefade said:
Could this possibly be due to the fact that this is the student doctor network??? I don't know a lot of attendings that mess around on internet message boards.

The point I was making was that the ones that do post here are pretty unhappy with military medicine. Then there's that silly argument that only the unhappy attendings post on SDN, but that's not true for the other residency forums at all, so I don't buy it.
 
neuronix, I've been following this board for about 3 months and read almost all the posts in the military forum to help me with my decision, and despite all your negative second hand knowledge, I took the oath yesterday and signed the contract for HPSP. why? you may ask. sometimes, it is not all about me. If everyone followed your advice, then who would take care of our soldiers that are protecting us? It would be great to go to med school, go to residency, then spend my career working at a clinic making serious bucks, but for me, something would be missing. We have all been blessed with the opportunity to study medicine, and I am proud to have to opportunity to serve my country, even if it means making a few personal sacrafices along the way. to put it another way, my gf is a school teacher, and she has told me some pretty crappy stories about her kids and the low pay, and hard work. but I dont go around posting on forums discouraging people from entering the profession of teaching. If I did, then who would teach our children?

anyway, thats just my opinion. my advice to neuronix would be to break up with the HPSP girlfriend and find someone more convenient so that he never has to sacrafice anything.
 
llort said:
If everyone followed your advice, then who would take care of our soldiers that are protecting us?

I took care of one today at the VA, like I do every week. He was raped in the military. The military's response? Put him back to work in Kuwait. He's a total mess now. The military's response to PTSD of any type is just to put someone back to work. Not functioning? Not happy? No problem. But, you'll see what I mean when you get there.

Remember why I said not to sign up for HPSP -- You don't know what the next 12 years of your life will be like. You can take care of our soldiers as a civilian contractor if you wanted to. There's no other job in the USA that you can possibly do to sign your life away like that. No civilian court would ever uphold such a contract. At least now you know what the negatives are of joining, and you can never complain that you really didn't know, like so many others. My goal isn't to tell you what to do, it's to give my opinions and let people make their own decisions. That's why I post on a public forum.
 
Neuronix said:
The military's response to PTSD of any type is just to put someone back to work. Not functioning? Not happy? No problem. But, you'll see what I mean when you get there.

actually the amount of psych support given to troops now, *especially* concerning PTSD is extensive. the psych and social support given to troops returning from OEF/OIF is the best it has ever been-- and deservedly so.

you have to remember-- a lot of the "ex-military" guys who go on and on about how they got screwed are often exaggerating for sympathy. anytime i get the sob story the same BS meter goes of as when guys start talking about "how this one time when they were in the special forces . . . "

not saying your pt was lying, but i've heard stories before that unless you knew something about the military you might believe.

so far i'm satisfied with HPSP. i'll keep you all informed as i pay off my obligation over the next 10 years how my attitude changes 😎

--your friendly neighborhood on call . . again . . caveman
 
Neuronix said:
I took care of one today at the VA, like I do every week. He was raped in the military. The military's response? Put him back to work in Kuwait. He's a total mess now. The military's response to PTSD of any type is just to put someone back to work. Not functioning? Not happy? No problem. But, you'll see what I mean when you get there.


I find this hard to believe. From what I've seen anyone with even lamest complaint of real (or even "unreal") illness is pulled off line and evaluated ad nauseum. I feel bad for the person in your example, but a lot of these guys, as Homunculus points out in another post, really set off the old B.S.-ometer. I can't even begin to count how many "It all started with the first gulf war . . . " stories I've heard (regarding things that absolutely did NOT start with the first gulf war, or any other war for that matter). But I think they've realized that the squeaky wheel gets the grease and if they want to end their military time ahead of schedule, all they have to do is complain long and loud enough and eventually they'll get medded out.

Oh, and by the way, HPSP is great . . . get paid to go to school, do a couple ADTs, do a relatively nice military residency . . . . It's when you hit attendinghood that the military exacts its pound of flesh and you see how screwed up military medicine really is.

RMD 1-3-8
 
R-Me-Doc said:
It's when you hit attendinghood that the military exacts its pound of flesh and you see how screwed up military medicine really is.

Care to elaborate? Most of the complaints I've heard about military medicine have been related to GMO tours. How are things worse as an attending?

Also, not challenging your opinion (I truly want to hear all sides), but if it's so terrible how do they get docs to stay in 20-30 years? What sets those folks apart, i.e. are there certain characteristics of people who stay in military medicine versus people who leave after their HPSP or FAP obligation?
 
Teufelhunden said:
Also, not challenging your opinion (I truly want to hear all sides), but if it's so terrible how do they get docs to stay in 20-30 years? What sets those folks apart, i.e. are there certain characteristics of people who stay in military medicine versus people who leave after their HPSP or FAP obligation?
Lifers as they're called stay in for a variety of reasons. Many become "institutionalized" and can't see making it on the outside, so they stay in till they are asked to leave. Malpractise, comparative pay, the added "power" of rank...

Crazy as it sounds some actually enjoy the military. Those who stay are a glutton for punishment. They are able to take the abuses and keep coming back for more. I can't say how helpful they are because some fight their entire careers to change things and others give up and are waiting for their pension. The only thing I believe about physicians who stay in are that they just accept the way things are and choose which battles to fight. They are more "flexible" which is to say they bend more to the will of the military machine than those who get out.
 
Ydangerzone said:
Maybe it's just me, but most of the posts in military medicine are pretty negative. I DON'T want to start an argument with ANYONE -

I would just like to hear any feedback from those who actually enjoy/don't mind/ are grateful/happy with/ etc the HPSP program.

Thanks! I've heard lots of the negative, what about the positives besides money and no malpractice. What is military life like? Is it really that bad?

Thanks!

As a student, I've been pretty happy with the HPSP. It's afforded me opportunities which I normally wouldn't be able to do because of financial difficulties.

I got a full deferment. And that was exactly what I wanted.

Looking forward to my time as an active duty physician, I can't forsee that I'm going to be all that happy with the deal. Although it will be nice not having to pay back a lot of money in loans from school, I don't think the military pay structure is all that great. As a junior attending you miss out on a pay - board specialty pay in particular (until you get enough experience to get board cerfied which will be 18 months for me). Also, in your last year, if you decide to leave in July, you miss out on your specialty pay which could mean $36K less if you're a neurosurgeon.

In addition, you have to deal with the bs that is inherent in the military. I heard of a new theory in the military that physicians may begin to have their production audited. The idea is that military physicians should be like their private practice counterparts and generate enough revenue in order to pay for the salary they receive. This is a very bad idea as the people who will get screwed over will be the patients. Physicians will do less free work for patients, ie phone in prescriptions, return telephone calls, etc and cause the patients inconvenience by forcing them to come to clinic so that they can be billed for the physician's time. Rather in a true private practice, the doctor's do these things for free as a matter of good customer service.

Anyway, that's my beef.
 
Read my posts for the negatives. I changed from a wide eye optimist who wanted to serve my country to a bitter old man who couldn't want to get out.

I'm out and loving being out. I wish I had never signed. I got to do a lot of things my civilian counterparts never got to do.....waste my time, work in a bad medical system, deal with bosses who don't care, listen to BS from leaders who don't really believe the BS they are spouting, spend 5 years separated from my wife.....it was all really great.....everyone should experience it.
 
Teufelhunden said:
Care to elaborate? Most of the complaints I've heard about military medicine have been related to GMO tours. How are things worse as an attending?

Also, not challenging your opinion (I truly want to hear all sides), but if it's so terrible how do they get docs to stay in 20-30 years? What sets those folks apart, i.e. are there certain characteristics of people who stay in military medicine versus people who leave after their HPSP or FAP obligation?

See the post by MilMD above. And add to it stuff like:

1. spend at least 1/3 of your time doing intensive medical procedures like filing, photocopying, faxing, booking appointments for patients, etc because the military is too cheap to hire sufficient clerical/admin help;

2. admit patients to the hospital only to be told that the testing/procedures they need can't get done until "maybe sometime next week";

3. Constantly have to juggle your schedule because you were notified the day before about the "manadatory training" that you need to go to (at least one such B.S. event a month, always dropped on you at the last possible moment)

I could go on, but won't at the moment -- these are just today's pet peeves. Keep watching this space. Or just look back in old postings.

As for how they keep docs in for 20-30 years? Well, for the most part they don't. The attrition rate for docs is incredibly high. The ones who stay (at least in my opinion) fall into one of the following categories:

a. People who truly do like the military, for whatever reason (patriotism, like wearing uniforms, like to move around and travel, etc). If that's your bag, hey, I have no problem with that. Enjoy.

b. Risk averse; they want the security of a regular paycheck and a pension after 20 or 30.

c. Prior service career changers who just need to tack on a few more years til retirement (sort of a subcategory of a and b)

d. Can't handle the real world (as much as we may b***h and moan, I realize the financial and time pressures on civilian docs are greater overall).

Caveat emptor.

RMD 1-3-7
 
R-Me-Doc said:
See the post by MilMD above. And add to it stuff like:

1. spend at least 1/3 of your time doing intensive medical procedures like filing, photocopying, faxing, booking appointments for patients, etc because the military is too cheap to hire sufficient clerical/admin help;

2. admit patients to the hospital only to be told that the testing/procedures they need can't get done until "maybe sometime next week";

3. Constantly have to juggle your schedule because you were notified the day before about the "manadatory training" that you need to go to (at least one such B.S. event a month, always dropped on you at the last possible moment)

I could go on, but won't at the moment -- these are just today's pet peeves. Keep watching this space. Or just look back in old postings.

As for how they keep docs in for 20-30 years? Well, for the most part they don't. The attrition rate for docs is incredibly high. The ones who stay (at least in my opinion) fall into one of the following categories:

a. People who truly do like the military, for whatever reason (patriotism, like wearing uniforms, like to move around and travel, etc). If that's your bag, hey, I have no problem with that. Enjoy.

b. Risk averse; they want the security of a regular paycheck and a pension after 20 or 30.

c. Prior service career changers who just need to tack on a few more years til retirement (sort of a subcategory of a and b)

d. Can't handle the real world (as much as we may b***h and moan, I realize the financial and time pressures on civilian docs are greater overall).

Caveat emptor.

RMD 1-3-7

Unfortunately, this is true. You are expected to fulfill both roles as an officer and a doctor. Thus you need to become and act more than doctor and expect to fulfill many responsibilities which you may regard as BS esp when you do not know how military works and wants out of you...

Before medical school I was trained as a Preventive Medicine Specialist (PMS) at Fort Sam Houston and stationed at Fort Bragg. Quite interestingly, I cannot recall one thing I actually I did that remotely resemble my job description as a PMS. Quite frankly U.S. Army paid me to perform duties as a soldier like Preventive Check and Service on my vehicles, pass physical training test, weapon qualification and other soldier's task that is irrelevant to my job description. Sure, Amy awarded me with job skill identifier as 91S, but quite truthfully what I actually did in the Army would not have helped me with the transition into the civilian life. So people stay in...

I understand that I will be working as doctor in the military, but to uncle sam's eye we are all soldiers and quite perhaps a servant to the solders' needs. If the possiblity of working as a soldier turns you off one shouldn't accept HPSP.
 
bobbyseal said:
In addition, you have to deal with the bs that is inherent in the military. I heard of a new theory in the military that physicians may begin to have their production audited. The idea is that military physicians should be like their private practice counterparts and generate enough revenue in order to pay for the salary they receive.

That ain't no theory pal. Navy medicine is now all about RVU's (relative value units) and MEPRS (Military Expense and Performance Reporting System), coding, "Human capital strategy management", "recapturing the workload" and all the other catch phrases that go along with managed care, HMO's, cost-cutting, people trimming, military to civilian conversions, etc. It's time to belly up to the bar and take a big old bite out of that steamy turd sandwich and wash it down with a nice warm cup of STFU.
 
Ydangerzone said:
Maybe it's just me, but most of the posts in military medicine are pretty negative. I DON'T want to start an argument with ANYONE -

I would just like to hear any feedback from those who actually enjoy/don't mind/ are grateful/happy with/ etc the HPSP program.

Thanks! I've heard lots of the negative, what about the positives besides money and no malpractice. What is military life like? Is it really that bad?

Thanks!
As is anything in life, military life is what you make of it. I enjoy serving not just my country but more importantly the men and women in uniform. I like the support available for my family through activities and clubs. I like testing cutting edge medicine interventions. I like the base facilities and although not a more lucurative financial life, there is a more simple financial life in the military. When I look back in my old age I know I will proud that I served in the armed forces. The military takes you out of your comfort zone in life which I actually want. That's about it for now.
 
threepeas said:
As is anything in life, military life is what you make of it. I enjoy serving not just my country but more importantly the men and women in uniform. I like the support available for my family through activities and clubs. I like testing cutting edge medicine interventions. I like the base facilities and although not a more lucurative financial life, there is a more simple financial life in the military. When I look back in my old age I know I will proud that I served in the armed forces. The military takes you out of your comfort zone in life which I actually want. That's about it for now.

wait till they give you an assignment away from your family for extended periods of time...have you been deployed yet...every take care of a 60+ year old retiree with multiple organ failure and total disregard for his/her health and expects you to fix him/her because he/she's a vet and is entitled :meanie:
 
GMO2003 said:
wait till they give you an assignment away from your family for extended periods of time...have you been deployed yet...every take care of a 60+ year old retiree with multiple organ failure and total disregard for his/her health and expects you to fix him/her because he/she's a vet and is entitled :meanie:

Look at his posts -- I'm not exactly sure of his timeline, but he's a first or second year med student. Again, all the "positive" posts are from med students or pre-meds who have no idea.
 
Homunculus said:
i've had a positive experience so far. and i'm not a medstudent or premed 😛 😀

Apologies. Add in residents as well. Find me an attending who's happy with their job and actually wants to stay in the military and have them post on here. The closest to "happy" I saw was NavyDiveDoc who hasn't posted in awhile.
 
Neuronix said:
Apologies. Add in residents as well. Find me an attending who's happy with their job and actually wants to stay in the military and have them post on here. The closest to "happy" I saw was NavyDiveDoc who hasn't posted in awhile.

He's busy with his radiology residency....
 
Neuronix said:
Apologies. Add in residents as well. Find me an attending who's happy with their job and actually wants to stay in the military and have them post on here. The closest to "happy" I saw was NavyDiveDoc who hasn't posted in awhile.

Although I'm a med student, I've done several rotations at military bases and most attendings I worked with seemed content. During my last rotation, the dept chair was stepping down after doing 32 years. He said he wanted to stay in, but after 30 years, he had to keep applying every year for a waiver to stay in the military. So he left when a good offer came up (a neighboring academic hospital hired him to be their fellowship director). Most attendings said they'd probably leave after their commitments, or after they hit 20 years, b/c they could make a lot more money in the private sector, which is a very understandable reason for getting out.

However, the majority of attendings I worked with seemed to be relatively happy. Perhaps they just acted that way in front of the med students as part of recruiting for the program. Also, a lot of the attendings I worked with had already been in the military for awhile, so they weren't getting deployed like the younger guys.
 
GMO2003 said:
wait till they give you an assignment away from your family for extended periods of time...have you been deployed yet...every take care of a 60+ year old retiree with multiple organ failure and total disregard for his/her health and expects you to fix him/her because he/she's a vet and is entitled :meanie:

i would rather take care of a 60yo vet who is sick and feels entitled, for which they are, versus a 30 yo crack head who has kidney failure from life style choices who feels entitled but has done nothing but suck off the system.

being deployed is not a desirable thing. however if called i will do it proudly, make the best of it with no whining.
 
threepeas said:
i would rather take care of a 60yo vet who is sick and feels entitled, for which they are, versus a 30 yo crack head who has kidney failure from life style choices who feels entitled but has done nothing but suck off the system.

being deployed is not a desirable thing. however if called i will do it proudly, make the best of it with no whining.

Amen!
 
threepeas said:
i would rather take care of a 60yo vet who is sick and feels entitled, for which they are, versus a 30 yo crack head who has kidney failure from life style choices who feels entitled but has done nothing but suck off the system.

being deployed is not a desirable thing. however if called i will do it proudly, make the best of it with no whining.
Just wait until you are treating the crackhead at a military ER....lest we forget that the dependents aren't bound by the "zero tolerance" policy. It'll happen and then you have to deal with the military member in denial, particpating (these get caught) or supplying. Then there are the "entitled" sickbay commando's who never get deployed or do more than 2 hours of labor before they're reporting to sickcall with a "herniated" this or "pulled" that or go straight to the ER and then you as the battalion surgeon have to explain to the ER Director why he's there.... These commandoes know the Merck Manual better than any physician.

There's crap everywhere. Don't think just because it's the military you won't be exposed to the same. Everyone, including the dependents....ohhh and the dependents of staff officers...now they're a really special treat....are entitled and will let you know it. From the dependent crackhead to the admiral/general's daughter who's still a dependent and just wrecked the ambulance and ER entrance because of drunk driving but then YOU are put on report for........ 😱 Sorry about that...had a flashback to the good ole days... 😉

I hope you guys remain as rosy as you are now. The reality is the majority of active duty physicians deal with it and get out. No complaining or whining but are living lives of quiet desperation. Hoping others won't ask them the dreaded "so how do you like the military?" Because then they have to put on their best puritan face and say "it's fine...harder than I thought but..." From those who have asked I would be interested to hear if this how your conversation with active duty docs have gone....
 
Croooz,

Hey, thanks for the insight. In your career, I'm sure you have known a handful of docs who were staying in for 20+. So, what's with these guys/gals? Have you had a chance to talk, frankly, with many of them? I've gone online and looked at some of the Navy biographies of Navy docs with stars - seems most of their careers headed into more and more administrative billets as they moved up in rank (which is something I think I may be interested in).

Again, I'm not in anyway challenging the (overwhelmingly) negative anecdotes I'm reading on these threads. I'm just thinking, what gives? How can the majority of Navy docs be absolutely miserable, but then there are this handful of senior-ranking docs who stay in 20-30 years. I'm just really wondering how people can have these drastically different views.

I'm, honestly, hoping I'm part of the latter group. Having >6 years in already, I'll only have to put in 5.5 years to retire after Navy resideny + payback (8 years). It would seem a shame not to retire after putting that much time in. Also, I'm one of these guys who actually loves the military. My wife was in >11 years, so she's fully aware of the sacrifices involved, but still supports me 100% (although she's trying to dissuade me from doing a USMC GMO tour).

Anyway, just curious as to your thoughts on this.
 
Croooz said:
Just wait until you are treating the crackhead at a military ER....lest we forget that the dependents aren't bound by the "zero tolerance" policy. It'll happen and then you have to deal with the military member in denial, particpating (these get caught) or supplying. Then there are the "entitled" sickbay commando's who never get deployed or do more than 2 hours of labor before they're reporting to sickcall with a "herniated" this or "pulled" that or go straight to the ER and then you as the battalion surgeon have to explain to the ER Director why he's there.... These commandoes know the Merck Manual better than any physician.

There's crap everywhere. Don't think just because it's the military you won't be exposed to the same. Everyone, including the dependents....ohhh and the dependents of staff officers...now they're a really special treat....are entitled and will let you know it. From the dependent crackhead to the admiral/general's daughter who's still a dependent and just wrecked the ambulance and ER entrance because of drunk driving but then YOU are put on report for........ 😱 Sorry about that...had a flashback to the good ole days... 😉

I hope you guys remain as rosy as you are now. The reality is the majority of active duty physicians deal with it and get out. No complaining or whining but are living lives of quiet desperation. Hoping others won't ask them the dreaded "so how do you like the military?" Because then they have to put on their best puritan face and say "it's fine...harder than I thought but..." From those who have asked I would be interested to hear if this how your conversation with active duty docs have gone....

Great,
Sound like some of what I saw at MGH (Massachusetts General Hospital). Honestly, my views are not military specific, they would be the same if I where a civilian-med-student-to-be. I'm sure both have thier pros and cons, and I would be equally ignorant in being excited about either of them.
Still can't wait to get started and have some of this idealism beaten out of me.
- Young, Ignorant, and excited,
AB
 
Neuronix said:
Apologies. Add in residents as well. Find me an attending who's happy with their job and actually wants to stay in the military and have them post on here. The closest to "happy" I saw was NavyDiveDoc who hasn't posted in awhile.

Well...yeah, of course!
+ most attendings, and folks out there practicing do not have the time or inclination to spend on chat rooms talking about their experiences. The only ones who seem inclined are those who think that it is their duty to warn us of falling in to the same traps they did (i.e. xmilmd. Thanks for the info).

Only those of us who are unsure about what is ahead spend time on chat rooms misinforming each other. I wish there where more people on this site like NavyDiveDoc and homunculus who can speak positively about their experience, but I will take what I can get. I hope that I will take time to add my experiences to these pages when I finish residency, but who can say...

BTW Neuroguy,
What makes you think civilian attendings are any more excited about thier job. Your theory about idealistic behavior decreasing with experience is nothing new; it is not specific to military medicine, and it is not specific to medical careers. "It is the oldest story in the book" as they say.
 
AubreyMaturin said:
Well...yeah, of course!
+ most attendings, and folks out there practicing do not have the time or inclination to spend on chat rooms talking about their experiences. The only ones who seem inclined are those who think that it is their duty to warn us of falling in to the same traps they did (i.e. xmilmd. Thanks for the info).

Only those of us who are unsure about what is ahead spend time on chat rooms misinforming each other. I wish there where more people on this site like NavyDiveDoc and homunculus who can speak positively about their experience, but I will take what I can get. I hope that I will take time to add my experiences to these pages when I finish residency, but who can say...

BTW Neuroguy,
What makes you think civilian attendings are any more excited about thier job. Your theory about idealistic behavior decreasing with experience is nothing new; it is not specific to military medicine, and it is not specific to medical careers. "It is the oldest story in the book" as they say.

I'm now a civilian attending....and I'm truly excited about my job. Leaving the military has renewed my enthusiasim for medicine.
 
AubreyMaturin said:
Well...yeah, of course!
+ most attendings, and folks out there practicing do not have the time or inclination to spend on chat rooms talking about their experiences. The only ones who seem inclined are those who think that it is their duty to warn us of falling in to the same traps they did (i.e. xmilmd. Thanks for the info).

Only those of us who are unsure about what is ahead spend time on chat rooms misinforming each other. I wish there where more people on this site like NavyDiveDoc and homunculus who can speak positively about their experience, but I will take what I can get. I hope that I will take time to add my experiences to these pages when I finish residency, but who can say...

BTW Neuroguy,
What makes you think civilian attendings are any more excited about thier job. Your theory about idealistic behavior decreasing with experience is nothing new; it is not specific to military medicine, and it is not specific to medical careers. "It is the oldest story in the book" as they say.

Go look at the other residency forums here that aren't completely dead. You will find attendings in each one of them who are happy with their chosen field and are actively recruiting others to join.
 
Neuronix said:
Apologies. Add in residents as well. Find me an attending who's happy with their job and actually wants to stay in the military and have them post on here. The closest to "happy" I saw was NavyDiveDoc who hasn't posted in awhile.


I'm civilian residency trained and military fellowship trained. NO prior service, and I'm not from a military family. During my training, I spent a lot of time in many settings including with private practice groups and in private hospitals. There is something to be said about being able to practice medicine for a few years before having to become a businessman/businesswoman. For most primary care fields (peds, family med), the salary is similar in the military to private practice, especially if you moonlight (you can't moonlight when you're in a group practice). For subspecialists, the pay is not as good, but again, you can moonlight; even without moonlighting, the pay is not bad at all. Military medicine is often more academically oriented and evidence-based than is private practice medicine. The hours are better than private practice. The call schedule and weekends are often nicer. No malpractice insurance; all of your patients are insured; you don't usually have to worry about your patients affording their meds; paid vacation; 100% health/dental/optometry for you and your family; reimbursement for CME travel; etc, etc. And no $100,000 to 250,000 in student loans over your head.

Plus, I promise you that the patients you will treat are (on the whole) the most grateful, loyal and deserving patients in the world. I've worked in county hospitals, VAs, and university hospitals, and the military patients are by far the best to work with.

Military medicine is not perfect, nor is the HPSP. You're not getting something for free. But when you weigh the advantages and disadvantages, its not a bad deal at all. There are days I question the decision I made 10 years ago. But usually, I'm pretty sure I did the right thing.
 
malmaleh said:
I'm civilian residency trained and military fellowship trained. NO prior service, and I'm not from a military family. During my training, I spent a lot of time in many settings including with private practice groups and in private hospitals. There is something to be said about being able to practice medicine for a few years before having to become a businessman/businesswoman. For most primary care fields (peds, family med), the salary is similar in the military to private practice, especially if you moonlight (you can't moonlight when you're in a group practice). For subspecialists, the pay is not as good, but again, you can moonlight; even without moonlighting, the pay is not bad at all. Military medicine is often more academically oriented and evidence-based than is private practice medicine. The hours are better than private practice. The call schedule and weekends are often nicer. No malpractice insurance; all of your patients are insured; you don't usually have to worry about your patients affording their meds; paid vacation; 100% health/dental/optometry for you and your family; reimbursement for CME travel; etc, etc. And no $100,000 to 250,000 in student loans over your head.

Plus, I promise you that the patients you will treat are (on the whole) the most grateful, loyal and deserving patients in the world. I've worked in county hospitals, VAs, and university hospitals, and the military patients are by far the best to work with.

Military medicine is not perfect, nor is the HPSP. You're not getting something for free. But when you weigh the advantages and disadvantages, its not a bad deal at all. There are days I question the decision I made 10 years ago. But usually, I'm pretty sure I did the right thing.

Thank you for the positive post, it is good to hear your view.
 
malmaleh said:
I'm civilian residency trained and military fellowship trained. NO prior service, and I'm not from a military family. During my training, I spent a lot of time in many settings including with private practice groups and in private hospitals. There is something to be said about being able to practice medicine for a few years before having to become a businessman/businesswoman. For most primary care fields (peds, family med), the salary is similar in the military to private practice, especially if you moonlight (you can't moonlight when you're in a group practice). For subspecialists, the pay is not as good, but again, you can moonlight; even without moonlighting, the pay is not bad at all. Military medicine is often more academically oriented and evidence-based than is private practice medicine. The hours are better than private practice. The call schedule and weekends are often nicer. No malpractice insurance; all of your patients are insured; you don't usually have to worry about your patients affording their meds; paid vacation; 100% health/dental/optometry for you and your family; reimbursement for CME travel; etc, etc. And no $100,000 to 250,000 in student loans over your head.

Plus, I promise you that the patients you will treat are (on the whole) the most grateful, loyal and deserving patients in the world. I've worked in county hospitals, VAs, and university hospitals, and the military patients are by far the best to work with.

Military medicine is not perfect, nor is the HPSP. You're not getting something for free. But when you weigh the advantages and disadvantages, its not a bad deal at all. There are days I question the decision I made 10 years ago. But usually, I'm pretty sure I did the right thing.

:laugh: Uh oh. The universe is going to explode now. We have found a happy military attending. Of course, Neuronix will find some way to discount this guy as well.
 
delicatefade said:
:laugh: Uh oh. The universe is going to explode now. We have found a happy military attending. Of course, Neuronix will find some way to discount this guy as well.

Congrats, years of negative feedback and we have one positive poster. 👍 Obviously, this guy is lucky. He was allowed to do the specialty and fellowship he chose and was not GMOed. Further, it sounds like they're stationed somewhere academic and somewhat cushy (as a subspecialist) and probably have not been deployed (and probably won't be in AF) for a year away from their family. I have no doubt there's happy people in the military, it's just that the things that make you happy in your career are mostly out of your hands. Hopefully this poster is not a one or two poster wonder, and actually stays around to give helpful advice and perspectives to those with questions about HPSP. Given all that, the mention of "a few years" in the post gives me the impression that the poster is not thinking of career military, I wonder why not?
 
Listen, I truly do appreciate the perspective that you give to those considering HPSP. It is very wise and prudent to consider all of your options and all of the pros and cons when signing up for the military.

It just gets a little old when you simply cannot accept that there are people that are happy in the military. First, HPSP students reply to you saying they are happy. You discount them because they are students and haven't experienced the military yet. That's valid. Then 3rd/4th year students reply saying they are happy and you discount them, because again, they are students. That's valid as well.

Then you get a few residents who say they are happy. You quickly discount them because they aren't attendings. And then you say, show me some happy military attendings. Granted, I haven't seen many post on these boards but here you just got one. And what do you do???

You just cannot accept that he is happy. He HAS to be happy only because he hasn't been deployed. He HAS to be happy only because he is a specialist. He HAS to be happy only because he did a fellowship. He simply cannot just be happy with the military and the choice he made to sign up for HPSP. So you discount him as well.

It's beginning to be apparent that you will never be satisfied. Ever. I'm truly sorry that your girlfriend feels she got shafted. I really am. I'm very familiar with the military and know I will be happy with my decision, but I would almost never encourage someone to go HPSP for most of the reasons you mention unless they had truly done the research and still felt compelled.

It's just that you come off as some kind of conspiracy theorist who will accept no information that counters the second hand information you have gotten from your girlfriend.
 
delicatefade said:
It just gets a little old when you simply cannot accept that there are people that are happy in the military.

Neuronix said:
I have no doubt there's happy people in the military

delicatefade said:
You just cannot accept that he is happy. He HAS to be happy only because he hasn't been deployed. He HAS to be happy only because he is a specialist. He HAS to be happy only because he did a fellowship. He simply cannot just be happy with the military and the choice he made to sign up for HPSP. So you discount him as well.

Not discounting, only explaining. When you spend a year away from your children and don't get the residency and/or fellowship you want, you'll be unhappy too. If none of these happen to you, you might just be happy. Unfortunately, it's all out of your hands.

It's just that you come off as some kind of conspiracy theorist who will accept no information that counters the second hand information you have gotten from your girlfriend.

Conspiracy theorist? My only theory is that recruiters lie to potential HPSP applicants to get them to sign up, and then once you sign there's no way out. Is it reality? Yep. Am I trying to provide the truth? Yep. I accept all the information given to me, on this forum, from my girlfriend, or from nasty e-mails read from her superiors for asking innocent questions and believe me that the vast majority is just rehashed from other parts of this forum. Go read some of the negative posts that aren't by me. Sound familiar?

Why do you feel the need to defend the military and attack me so much? Feeling insecure about your own decision? Just curious. I will be satisified when the military includes a clause that lets people out of the contract, with payback or not. Why else would they threaten anyone who even asks about leaving with a court marshall?
 
Not insecure at all. Not everyone who disagrees with you in some way is insecure. And I do not constantly attack you. I've probably only responded to you like what, 2-3 times total?

Anyhow, I'm not really attacking you. I appreciate your perspective here and I would not wish for you to leave or stop posting at all. I'm just pointing out that even when someone posts that they are happy, you can't seem to believe it and have to find some way to explain it.
 
I must side with the Neuro guy....from a bunch of students/residents posting....neuro guy as a better grasp of the situation. People are jumping ship left and right...no pun intended...seeing how I was fooled into the Navy.
 
Neuronix said:
Not discounting, only explaining. When you spend a year away from your children and don't get the residency and/or fellowship you want, you'll be unhappy too. If none of these happen to you, you might just be happy. Unfortunately, it's all out of your hands.



Conspiracy theorist? My only theory is that recruiters lie to potential HPSP applicants to get them to sign up, and then once you sign there's no way out. Is it reality? Yep. Am I trying to provide the truth? Yep. I accept all the information given to me, on this forum, from my girlfriend, or from nasty e-mails read from her superiors for asking innocent questions and believe me that the vast majority is just rehashed from other parts of this forum. Go read some of the negative posts that aren't by me. Sound familiar?

Why do you feel the need to defend the military and attack me so much? Feeling insecure about your own decision? Just curious. I will be satisified when the military includes a clause that lets people out of the contract, with payback or not. Why else would they threaten anyone who even asks about leaving with a court marshall?


I think you're forgetting a couple of things. I'm not sure where you are in your training... you may have said so in a previous posting, but there are a lot of them to read through. Anyway, my guess would be that you are early in the process, maybe applying to med school, maybe you've been accepted, maybe you're in your first or second year. It seems as though you've already made up your mind about the HPSP, based on your postings. But maybe you're still thinking about it (otherwise, why spend so much time on this thread?).

Anyway, trust me when I say that there is no guarantee that you will get the residency/fellowship of your choice, regardless of whether you are civilian or military. There are many civilian med students who do not match into their chosen field, as there are military students. It really depends on how competitive you are. Medical school is competitive, residency is competitive, and fellowship is too, regardless of whether you're active duty or not. You are very likely to get the residency field and location of your choice in the military if you're an outstanding candidate. You're right... I did get the GME training I wanted, because I did very well in school and had a strong application. If you are proactive, and are strong clinically and in research, you're likely to get an academic position at Walter Reed, Bethesda, San Diego, Wilford Hall, or the other academic centers. If not, you may wind up a general medical officer in Small Town, USA. But I know crappy civilian med students that got crappy residencies, and now are wasting away at some small clinic in some small town as well.

And to answer you question about whether I'm staying in after my commitment is up, I haven't decided yet. I'll probably get out. Not because I hate or even dislike the military, but because there are reasons to eventually leave. If I get out, I can move closer to family. And I will make more money. It may be a bad financial decision to stay in. But I will say that I know many people who do chose to stay in. Not necessarily for 20 years, but often for 6, 8, even 10 years.

You seem to think that the the HPSP program claims to provide you with something for free, and therefore the decision is a no-brainer. This is simply not the case. I got my education paid for, and in exchange, I provided a service of value. Here's an analogy... I enjoyed undergrad, but I was happy to finish. I gave my college something (money) and got something in return (a degree). I don't regret spending 4 years in college, but I was ready to move on. The same is true regarding my time in the military.
 
malmaleh said:
Anyway, trust me when I say that there is no guarantee that you will get the residency/fellowship of your choice, regardless of whether you are civilian or military. There are many civilian med students who do not match into their chosen field, as there are military students. It really depends on how competitive you are. Medical school is competitive, residency is competitive, and fellowship is too, regardless of whether you're active duty or not. You are very likely to get the residency field and location of your choice in the military if you're an outstanding candidate. You're right... I did get the GME training I wanted, because I did very well in school and had a strong application. .

However, there are artificial limits placed on selection in the military....projected needs, prior military service, GMO points....artificial limits which change from year to year depending on the whims of I don't now who...because manning is rarely correct....always too much or too little in each specialty.

So....being a strong candidate does not give you the strong chance of selection like you would in civilian world....I know a number of boobs who matched into competitive residences because of "time in service" while stellar candidates become bitter and waste their skills at performing PEs....Not an exception, but more the rule.
 
malmaleh said:
There are many civilian med students who do not match into their chosen field, as there are military students.

True. Unfortunately, non-competitive fields are filling up in the military world that would be available in the civilian world and the military is not granting deferrments in many cases. For example: Army PM&R or Air Force EM. These students cannot just take a year off like they would in the real world, they're either stuck doing several years of GMO and leaving, or taking a different residency.

It really depends on how competitive you are.

Not if a specialty is limited. USUHS students almost always get their choices over HPSP students. Also, with Navy GMOs, it has nothing to do with competitiveness. See the thread a few months ago about the ultra-competitive guy who wanted to do Ortho and instead got a GMO tour. Hopefully he'll get to come back to Ortho, unlike those who were GMOed when the peds programs were slashed and now have no residency.

Medical school is competitive, residency is competitive, and fellowship is too, regardless of whether you're active duty or not. You are very likely to get the residency field and location of your choice in the military if you're an outstanding candidate.

That's strange: why did I hear on a flight out of Seattle that none of the Army peds residents were being allowed to do fellowships because people were needed too badly? This has nothing to do with how strong a candidate you are.

You seem to think that the the HPSP program claims to provide you with something for free, and therefore the decision is a no-brainer. This is simply not the case. I got my education paid for, and in exchange, I provided a service of value. Here's an analogy... I enjoyed undergrad, but I was happy to finish. I gave my college something (money) and got something in return (a degree). I don't regret spending 4 years in college, but I was ready to move on. The same is true regarding my time in the military.

Obviously this is true. My argument is that 4 years where you lose your freedom as to where, how, and even when and what you can practice in is a much worse price than whatever it costs for medical school.
 
Neuronix said:
True. Unfortunately, non-competitive fields are filling up in the military world that would be available in the civilian world and the military is not granting deferrments in many cases. For example: Army PM&R or Air Force EM. These students cannot just take a year off like they would in the real world, they're either stuck doing several years of GMO and leaving, or taking a different residency.
But overall in the army you're still much more likely to get your field of choice then in the civilian world. I can't comment on the airforce or navy though. I know a guy from my med school class who wanted to be an orthopod from day one (he's not military). He failed to match though and simply got an okay surgical prelim spot. Had he been in the army, he most likely would have gotten ortho. Had he not, he could have done a GMO and then almost definitely gotten into ortho. So there are some advantages to the army's match. I would agree however that due to the uncertainty about location that people should be cautious about the decision, especially women who plan on having families during that time.
 
Neuronix said:
That's strange: why did I hear on a flight out of Seattle that none of the Army peds residents were being allowed to do fellowships because people were needed too badly? This has nothing to do with how strong a candidate you are.

5 out of 8 fellows selected this year were residents, 2 were staff, and one was a flight surgeon.

but yes, these are out of the people who applied to fellowships the army "needs" right now, not out of how many people watned fellowships, so you are both right, lol.

good army peds info:

http://www.armypeds.amedd.army.mil

--your friendly neighborhood combat pediatrician caveman
 
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