Does anyone else's school hold their exam grades hostage?

[LucidSplash]

So how about your workplace withhold your yearly bonus or a portion of your salary until you and your colleagues submit their annual evaluations and reach the 80% threshold? I mean that's fair right? The workplace has to check the box somehow. How else are they going to do it?

You mean workplaces don't do that? They don't punish individual employees because the collective hasn't completed the required threshold and treat you like toddlers.

I don't think OP is arguing against the necessity of collecting evaluations but of the manner of holding grades hostage for the entire class to obtain them. Given OP's complaints that they can go for a while without learning their grades, it doesn't actually seem to be working very well. There's gotta be a better way given I don't think anyone else has actually posted that their school used this method. Other schools don't do it like OP's and are still accredited so maybe they should ask them how they do it?

So, actually this does happen. Routinely, institutions will base compensation and bonuses in part on things the individual doctor has little control over. The biggest is patient evaluations. And, they’ve done studies on this, one of the biggest factors for patients? Hospital food. The patient gets cold eggs or doesn’t like the food, they put down low marks, and if you are the admitting doctor, your scores get bumped down. That happens enough times and you miss out on some compensation.

I once worked for a hospital, where one of the parts of my bonuses was dependent on the length of a surgeries being within the expected time posted >90% of the time. Never mind that I didn’t get to set the expected time based on case complexity, or that they routinely put non-vascular trained techs in my room. Now, I don’t work for that hospital anymore, and someday you’ll hopefully have that option too.

I would ask why the OP hasn’t tried to solve this problem among their class themselves. I am back in school myself, getting an MBA. Most of our classes are remote. We are all physicians. One of the professors is an excellent teacher but easily distracted by questions and tangential topics. After a couple of classes where we didn’t get all the way through the material, requiring an additional class to be scheduled to cover it, the class came together in a WhatsApp group and made an agreement to hold all questions until the end of the lecture. Low and behold, yesterday we got through all of the material at the end of class and had time for questions.

Perhaps the solution is for the class to have a meeting on the subject and make an agreement they can all stick to. Maybe not, but it’s a proactive way to address the situation and something you actually have power over.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

So how about your workplace withhold your yearly bonus or a portion of your salary until you and your colleagues submit their annual evaluations and reach the 80% threshold? I mean that's fair right? The workplace has to check the box somehow. How else are they going to do it?

You mean workplaces don't do that? They don't punish individual employees because the collective hasn't completed the required threshold and treat you like toddlers.

I don't think OP is arguing against the necessity of collecting evaluations but of the manner of holding grades hostage for the entire class to obtain them. Given OP's complaints that they can go for a while without learning their grades, it doesn't actually seem to be working very well. There's gotta be a better way given I don't think anyone else has actually posted that their school used this method. Other schools don't do it like OP's and are still accredited so maybe they should ask them how they do it?

Yes, happens all the time.

If I don't have 80% of my charts closed within 3 days, I lose bonus money.

If I don't complete CME evaluations, I don't get credit for that CME.

If I don't complete yearly HR education, I will eventually get fired.

Now that doesn't address the whole class having to do something, but if we had a system like that where I work you can absolutely believe we'd find out who the problems are and force them to get their acts together.

 

[xffan624]

Yes, happens all the time.

If I don't have 80% of my charts closed within 3 days, I lose bonus money.

If I don't complete CME evaluations, I don't get credit for that CME.

If I don't complete yearly HR education, I will eventually get fired.

Now that doesn't address the whole class having to do something, but if we had a system like that where I work you can absolutely believe we'd find out who the problems are and force them to get their acts together.

Key word there being "I" as you note. I would be fine with a system that punishes individuals for their individual actions (I still think the carrot works better, but at least it's a fair system), but expecting classmates to police each other in a system that punishes the collective is not how the professional world works (maybe in a prison, but not a professional environment). The hospital doesn't expect you to do so and I would say they would be hard pressed to find employees who want to work in a such a system. The only example I could think would be a in a partner practice where say one's partner's actions are being detrimental to the others, but that's a completely different power dynamic. This isn't a "Few Good Men". No one's going to order a code red to straighten out uncooperative medical students who don't fill out their evaluations (even if OP knew who they were, which they don't). It's not a few holdouts anyway. It's greater than 20% of the class and as OP complains, the key thing that no one seems to note except me is it isn't actually achieving the objective of getting the evaluations done in timely manner.

 

[FutureInternist]

If I don't have 80% of my charts closed within 3 days, I lose bonus money.

Wait…. What!??

I have never heard that before in my circle of docs.

Sure they suspend privileges but never losing out on bonus $$

 

[LucidSplash]

Wait…. What!??

I have never heard that before in my circle of docs.

Sure they suspend privileges but never losing out on bonus $$

They come up with new and interesting ways to decrease physician compensation all the time! This was also a thing at my prior employer.

 

[LucidSplash]

Key word there being "I" as you note. I would be fine with a system that punishes individuals for their individual actions (I still think the carrot works better, but at least it's a fair system), but expecting classmates to police each other in a system that punishes the collective is not how the professional world works (maybe in a prison, but not a professional environment). The hospital doesn't expect you to do so and I would say they would be hard pressed to find employees who want to work in a such a system. The only example I could think would be a in a partner practice where say one's partner's actions are being detrimental to the others, but that's a completely different power dynamic. This isn't a "Few Good Men". No one's going to order a code red to straighten out uncooperative medical students who don't fill out their evaluations (even if OP knew who they were, which they don't). It's not a few holdouts anyway. It's greater than 20% of the class and as OP complains, the key thing that no one seems to note except me is it isn't actually achieving the objective of getting the evaluations done in timely manner.

I have noted it. And I have asked if the class has discussed it. Maybe send out a class wide email to start a discussion or a WhatsApp group? Not yelling or pointing fingers or playing the blame game that medical students can sometimes do. But a productive discussion that says “Hey guys, this is a problem that affects all of us. Respectfully, how can we fix this amongst ourselves?” Do you have a class president or elected representative of some kind? Probably the best person to suggest this to. If not, what is stopping OP from starting the conversation?

Incidentally it’s also a way to gather consensus and, if unable to broker a solution amongst your peer group, to brainstorm ideas of policy change you could bring to the administration. Maybe agree to sample fewer students per exam, so people don’t feel burnt out having to do it every time, but the agreement is that then you have to have 100% of the smaller sample complete their evals.

Real life, real world, is trying to solve the problems you have within the realm in which you hold influence and power first. Here, that is the class of med students. Then, if you can’t resolve those problems amongst yourself, you collectively find alternate solutions you can bring to the next level in the hierarchy. I am encouraging OP to take action within their own sphere of influence with real-world power brokering techniques. It doesn’t matter all that much if this is or isn’t a standard practice among medical schools. You’ve been given the reasoning behind it (accreditation) and shown it is within your interests. So now what are you going to do about it to change the situation?

I agree carrots do work better. But carrots also have to be funded. We also don’t know the history. Maybe 5 years ago they tried a carrot approach similar to what you’re suggesting. And maybe it didn’t work. As others have stated, many times I have seen a rule like this get instituted because a prior carrot or less draconian method didn’t work.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

They come up with new and interesting ways to decrease physician compensation all the time! This was also a thing at my prior employer.

I love it, personally. The rate is 90% done within 3 business days. The lowest rate I've had in the 4 years I've been employed here is 98% (usually more like 99.7/8%.)

It was started because of people like one of my partners who routinely has triple digits of unfinished charts at any given time.

 

[xffan624]

I have noted it. And I have asked if the class has discussed it. Maybe send out a class wide email to start a discussion or a WhatsApp group? Not yelling or pointing fingers or playing the blame game that medical students can sometimes do. But a productive discussion that says “Hey guys, this is a problem that affects all of us. Respectfully, how can we fix this amongst ourselves?”

Incidentally it’s also a way to gather consensus and, if unable to broker a solution amongst your peer group, to brainstorm ideas of policy change you could bring to the administration. Maybe agree to sample fewer students per exam, so people don’t feel burnt out having to do it every time, but the agreement is that then you have to have 100% of the smaller sample complete their evals.

Real life, real world, is trying to solve the problems you have within the realm in which you hold influence and power first. Here, that is the class of med students. Then, if you can’t resolve those problems amongst yourself, you collectively find alternate solutions you can bring to the next level in the hierarchy. I am encouraging OP to take action within their own sphere of influence with real-world power brokering techniques. It doesn’t matter all that much if this or isn’t a standard practice among medical schools. You’ve been given the reasoning behind it (accreditation) and shown it is within your interests. So now what are you going to do about it to change the situation?

The school has implemented a policy that's not working to achieve the objective and is causing students undue stress by withholding their grades for long periods after taking their exams. Maybe they should be the ones to actually change the policy to one that actually works rather than trying to get all 150+ students to coordinate and change their behavior? Real world would be employees would quit a company that withholds their pay based on collective behavior that they have no direct control over, but this is not the real world. The students are pretty much like prisoners as they realistically can't leave and are required to accept whatever BS policy the school implements until their prison sentence is up.

 

[LucidSplash]

The school has implemented a policy that's not working to achieve the objective and is causing students undue stress my withholding their grades for long periods after taking their exams. Maybe they should be the ones to actually change the policy to one that actually works rather than trying to get all 150+ students to coordinate and change their behavior? Real world would be employees would quit a company that withholds their pay based on collective behavior that they have no direct control over, but this is not the real world. The students are pretty much like prisoners as they realistically can't leave and are required to accept whatever BS policy the school implements until their prison sentence is up.

Again, it would be great if the school did that. But they haven’t. And we don’t know the history of the policy. Currently, it seems the school isn’t bothered by the less than 80% rate enough to do anything about it, but the students are troubled. So I’m trying to empower the OP to take action within their sphere of influence. This “it’s not my job, I shouldn’t have to” is perhaps a reasonable emotion. But it isn’t producing a satisfactory resolution to the problem. Take action where you can first.

In medicine, we are often to taught to take care of the patient first and figure out who’s job it should have been later. Take action where you can, where it is necessary, within your sphere of influence.

I graduated med school in 2010, and I swear my class had class president and such who, for the most part, mostly did the work in securing specials at the bar for the Monday evenings after exams. But they also handled issues like this. If no such party exists, there is a leadership vacuum that the OP could easily step into.

 

[and 99 others]

Again, it would be great if the school did that. But they haven’t. And we don’t know the history of the policy. Currently, it seems the school isn’t bothered by the less than 80% rate enough to do anything about it, but the students are troubled. So I’m trying to empower the OP to take action within their sphere of influence. This “it’s not my job, I shouldn’t have to” is perhaps a reasonable emotion. But it isn’t producing a satisfactory resolution to the problem. Take action where you can first.

In medicine, we are often to taught to take care of the patient first and figure out who’s job it should have been later. Take action where you can, where it is necessary, within your sphere of influence.

I graduated med school in 2010, and I swear my class had class president and such who, for the most part, mostly did the work in securing specials at the bar for the Monday evenings after exams. But they also handled issues like this. If no such party exists, there is a leadership vacuum that the OP could easily step into.

I'm also hesitant to be too vocal because I worry about getting on the administrations bad side, as they have already demonstrated they they can behave inappropriately. I know that's what student government is for but I can't guarantee my name won't in some way be attached

 

[LucidSplash]

I'm also hesitant to be too vocal because I worry about getting on the administrations bad side, as they have already demonstrated they they can behave inappropriately. I know that's what student government is for but I can't guarantee my name won't in some way be attached

All the more reason to try to address the problem from within your class.

 

[Med Ed]

I'm also hesitant to be too vocal because I worry about getting on the administrations bad side, as they have already demonstrated they they can behave inappropriately. I know that's what student government is for but I can't guarantee my name won't in some way be attached

Agree with @LucidSplash that fixing this among the students is probably your best solution. Faculty/admins can cajole or threaten until we're hoarse, but there is no pressure like peer pressure.

If you want to stay off anyone's bad side, then avoid inflammatory and accusatory language and keep your case very simple: you just want to see your grades.

 

[and 99 others]

All the more reason to try to address the problem from within your class.

Agree with @LucidSplash that fixing this among the students is probably your best solution. Faculty/admins can cajole or threaten until we're hoarse, but there is no pressure like peer pressure.

If you want to stay off anyone's bad side, then avoid inflammatory and accusatory language and keep your case very simple: you just want to see your grades.

This is honestly a surprising suggestion because to me that seems pretty clearly infeasible. People are already trying to "fix" this among the students. Of course, countless students, including the student council, are sending out messages and emails pleading that it would be great if everyone submitted their evals so that everyone can see their grades. The administration sounds out reminders and progress updates on what percentage of students have filled out evals often. Not a single person is oblivious to the fact that their participation is needed. But badgering the students is obviously not helpful. To use your own logic, whether this is right or wrong is irrelevant. The fact is that trying to rally the students is not effective and also impractical in a large class when you don't know who did or didn't submit their evals. And to echo an earlier point, it just breeds animosity among the students even despite the fact that the calls to action are very kind and diplomatic because it is clear to many people that the point that needs to be addressed is not the students it's the administration and the policy.

 

[LucidSplash]

This is honestly a surprising suggestion because to me that seems pretty clearly infeasible. People are already trying to "fix" this among the students. Of course, countless students, including the student council, are sending out messages and emails pleading that it would be great if everyone submitted their evals so that everyone can see their grades. The administration sounds out reminders and progress updates on what percentage of students have filled out evals often. Not a single person is oblivious to the fact that their participation is needed. But badgering the students is obviously not helpful. To use your own logic, whether this is right or wrong is irrelevant. The fact is that trying to rally the students is not effective and also impractical in a large class when you don't know who did or didn't submit their evals. And to echo an earlier point, it just breeds animosity among the students even despite the fact that the calls to action are very kind and diplomatic because it is clear to many people that the point that needs to be addressed is not the students it's the administration and the policy.

I would say that your prior posts did not really make clear what kind of efforts had been made on the part of the class.

In this context, I provided my own example of something my own class (Physicians doing MBAs, not quite as large as a med school class but also not a small number of people) did. I also gave suggestions of asking the class itself what could be done differently, and being sure to use appropriate tones and avoid blaming or nagging, but rather a “this affects all of us and it’s not a small number of people, what can we do to fix this?”. It wasn’t that long ago that I was a med student but I think my overarching point is that you have more control over yourselves than you do over administration. At the least, to change the administration policy you will likely need some kind of general consensus among your classmates. The administration is unlikely to change their tactics on their own, as you have pointed out they haven’t done so already. So some kind of class meeting may be in order since emails haven’t worked. Either to figure out how to get 80% to complete the evals or to propose a new plan to the administration.

I’m sorry you’re experiencing this difficult situation. I think we have tried to give you reasonable suggestions for how to tackle the problem.

If all you want to do is yell into the void, that’s your right. But it doesn’t solve your problem.

It may also be that a larger percentage of the class doesn’t care if they see their grades or not. In that case you would need to try to influence peddle and build a consensus to try to change peoples minds. Or you can just accept the situation as it is.

These are the options as I see them although I am certainly not all-knowing. Good luck. I hope you are able to reach a resolution that decreases the stress level you feel, whatever that may be.

 

[NITRAS]

It hasn’t been that long since I graduated medical school. . . But if 20% of the class didn’t care enough to find out their grades to do an evaluation, things have changed a lot. . . . And not in a good way.

 

[FutureInternist]

I love it, personally. The rate is 90% done within 3 business days. The lowest rate I've had in the 4 years I've been employed here is 98% (usually more like 99.7/8%.)

It was started because of people like one of my partners who routinely has triple digits of unfinished charts at any given time.

Yeah but that punishes the group for one idiots doofusness.

We had an increase in our LOS and had all these meetings about what we could do.
At 3rd meeting, I just asked for the metrics if we took out 3 of our docs and wouldn’t you know it, we were doing pretty well

Meetings stopped 😏, and those 3 got a talking to.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Yeah but that punishes the group for one idiots doofusness.

We had an increase in our LOS and had all these meetings about what we could do.
At 3rd meeting, I just asked for the metrics if we took out 3 of our docs and wouldn’t you know it, we were doing pretty well

Meetings stopped 😏, and those 3 got a talking to.

That's one good way of addressing this.

I like ours because I get a carrot to keep doing exactly what I was already doing anyway. Same with lots of our other quality measures - lazy doctors are making me lots of money.

 

[Med Ed]

This is honestly a surprising suggestion because to me that seems pretty clearly infeasible. People are already trying to "fix" this among the students. Of course, countless students, including the student council, are sending out messages and emails pleading that it would be great if everyone submitted their evals so that everyone can see their grades. The administration sounds out reminders and progress updates on what percentage of students have filled out evals often. Not a single person is oblivious to the fact that their participation is needed. But badgering the students is obviously not helpful. To use your own logic, whether this is right or wrong is irrelevant. The fact is that trying to rally the students is not effective and also impractical in a large class when you don't know who did or didn't submit their evals. And to echo an earlier point, it just breeds animosity among the students even despite the fact that the calls to action are very kind and diplomatic because it is clear to many people that the point that needs to be addressed is not the students it's the administration and the policy.

LCME Standard 9.8 - Fair and Timely Summative Assessment
A medical school has in place a system of fair and timely summative assessment of medical student achievement in each course and clerkship of the medical education program. Final grades are available within six weeks of the end of a course or clerkship.

You could hit up the LCME with anonymous complaints if this isn't resolved by week six. That would get some attention.

IMHO the best way to address this going forward is to tie eval completion to professionalism standards, which was mentioned on page 1 of this thread. It's easy to forget at times, but you're in professional school to receive an education that qualifies you to join a profession. And being a member of a profession means self-regulation and always trying your best, so you don't end up screwing your patients and colleagues.

Perhaps contrary to a sentiment expressed earlier, we spend our entire professional lives dependent on the actions of others, from the CEO to the people answering the phones and emptying the wastebaskets.

 

[Syndonium]

This is a long thread for this topic.

I hated filling out evals in med school too. I also had exams every 3 weeks during MS1&2.

Would 100% trade filling out evals for all the stupid meetings I have to go to, which I am not paid for, as an attending.

Dang you only had exams every 3 weeks? I'm jealous man our school gave us exams literally every week, sometimes 2 exams in the same week! I wanted to die with how little time we had to study for these things. I'll take some stupid meetings where I at least am getting paid in general (and not drowning in debt that isn't even enough to keep up with inflating living costs over the year) any day. Literally cannot wait for MS3 and for residency because I'm sick of not being paid.

 

[LucidSplash]

Dang you only had exams every 3 weeks? I'm jealous man our school gave us exams literally every week, sometimes 2 exams in the same week! I wanted to die with how little time we had to study for these things. I'll take some stupid meetings where I at least am getting paid in general (and not drowning in debt that isn't even enough to keep up with inflating living costs over the year) any day. Literally cannot wait for MS3 and for residency because I'm sick of not being paid.

…you know you won’t be paid in MS3 and 4 either right? 😬

 

[mvenus929]

So how about your workplace withhold your yearly bonus or a portion of your salary until you and your colleagues submit their annual evaluations and reach the 80% threshold? I mean that's fair right? The workplace has to check the box somehow. How else are they going to do it?

You mean workplaces don't do that? They don't punish individual employees because the collective hasn't completed the required threshold and treat you like toddlers.

I mean, my bonus is tied to how well the department and the division overall do compared to other departments and divisions - so very little of the bonus has to do with what I personally do.

 

[throwaway123342]

I would be more willing to fill out my evals if they were in good faith. Instead evals are full of people telling faculty to change their ways, and then faculty just dig deeper into their pre-conceptions. Students have moved on to pathoma and other study materials for that reason.

Just type BS into the eval and move on with your day. Med school is simply a bureaucracy, everyone knows it

 

[throwaway123342]

Now that doesn't address the whole class having to do something, but if we had a system like that where I work you can absolutely believe we'd find out who the problems are and force them to get their acts together.

The correct response to having a system like that is to rise against your admins. Not to go after your colleagues who are stressed to the limit from their clinic schedules.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

The correct response to having a system like that is to rise against your admins. Not to go after your colleagues who are stressed to the limit from their clinic schedules.

Nope. We have complete control over our schedules as long as we don't earn less than they pay us.

My partner who is a problem for stuff like this is on debt up to her eyes, has a worthless unemployed husband but she still has to get a nanny because he's always somehow too busy to watch the kids.

I started to burn out last year so I removed 4 appointment slots per day from my schedule. I did not hear a single word from administration about it, but I can afford to lose that money because my wife isn't useless.

 

[LucidSplash]

The correct response to having a system like that is to rise against your admins. Not to go after your colleagues who are stressed to the limit from their clinic schedules.

In the post-training world, “rising against the admins” typically means finding a new job.

 

[Miles Gloriosus]

it ultimately boils down to if your classmates care enough about getting their grades in a timely manner. You might prioritize it but sounds like your class doesn’t. If people actually cared about it, they would fill out the evals.
Think about it: all it takes 5 mins to complete an evaluation. Literally have to click a series of boxes…you can type random letters in the comments box if you want and click submit. It’s really easy. >20% of your class are not that bothered about the grade thing and it’s such a low a priority to them they don’t bother to fill out the evals.
The problem is not with your admins….it’s with your classmates.

 

[xffan624]

it ultimately boils down to if your classmates care enough about getting their grades in a timely manner. You might prioritize it about but sounds like your class doesn’t. If people actually cared about it, they would fill out the evals.
Think about it: all it takes 5 mins to complete an evaluation. Literally have to click a series of boxes…you can type random letters in the comments box if you want and click submit. It’s really easy. >20% of your class are not that bothered about the grade thing and it’s such a low a priority to them they don’t bother to fill out the evals.
The problem is not with your admins….it’s with your classmates.

The admins are the ones with the asinine, punitive, ineffective policy that may violate LCME standards. Yes, the individual students have a responsibility to complete their evaluations as part of their professionalism standards but the school also has a responsibility to provide timely feedback to students on their performance. OP completed their responsibility and the school has not completed theirs. I'm still waiting for someone else to chime in that they had this same policy and they found it completely fair. For those defending the admins, can you honestly say you would have been ok with it had it been a policy at your school?

 

[LucidSplash]

The admins are the ones with the asinine, punitive, ineffective policy that may violate LCME standards. Yes, the individual students have a responsibility to complete their evaluations as part of their professionalism standards but the school also has a responsibility to provide timely feedback to students on their performance. OP completed their responsibility and the school has not completed theirs. I'm still waiting for someone else to chime in that they had this same policy and they found it completely fair. For those defending the admins, can you honestly say you would have been ok with it had it been a policy at your school?

I don’t know that most people are defending the admins, if any. I think most people here have rightly pointed out that stamping your foot and yelling “it’s not fair” might feel good, and may even be partially accurate, but doesn’t accomplish anything. So suggestions have been made from the real world about ways the OP might go about changing the situation. It matters not one bit if this is the only school with this policy because the school likely doesn’t care if it is an outlier here.

 

[Miles Gloriosus]

The admins are the ones with the asinine, punitive, ineffective policy that may violate LCME standards. Yes, the individual students have a responsibility to complete their evaluations as part of their professionalism standards but the school also has a responsibility to provide timely feedback to students on their performance. OP completed their responsibility and the school has not completed theirs. I'm still waiting for someone else to chime in that they had this same policy and they found it completely fair. For those defending the admins, can you honestly say you would have been ok with it had it been a policy at your school?

But don’t the students also have a responsibility to provide timely feedback to the school on the school’s performance?
the admins know they won’t get feedback unless the students have some sort of incentive to do so.

 

[xffan624]

But don’t the students also have a responsibility to provide timely feedback to the school on the school’s performance?
the admins know they won’t get feedback unless the students have some sort of incentive to do so.

Maybe you missed the first part of my statement "Yes, the individual students have a responsibility to complete their evaluations as part of their professionalism standards". OP completed their evaluation, meeting their responsibility. The school hasn't provided feedback on their performance. There's no LCME standard that says OP is responsible for pressuring his fellow students to completing theirs. The school is an entity, students are individuals and shouldn't be held responsible for what their colleagues did or didn't do.

I agree there a real world argument to be made that life often isn't fair, but I think the more salient argument would be that this method is not achieving the school's objectives of obtaining and maybe they should try a different tactic. I would note that I haven't given OP specific advice on how to address this issue I only agree with them that's it's unfair and I think anyone defending the admin should consider that their school didn't have this system (unless I missed it) and how it might have impacted their medical school stress if they had.

 

[Med Ed]

I agree there a real world argument to be made that life often isn't fair, but I think the more salient argument would be that this method is not achieving the school's objectives of obtaining and maybe they should try a different tactic.

We're missing some important pieces of information before anyone should consider changing tactics.

1. The history of the policy in question. If it has been running fine for the last decade and is suddenly a problem with this specific class, that's less incentive to change it. If this is the first year they've tried it and it's not getting the anticipated results, that's a different situation.
2. A description of the burden placed on the students. Specifically, how many evals are there to complete, how long are they, and what is the minimum time investment to complete a round of them?
3. Why is >20% of the class not completing them in a timely manner? OP mentioned a boycott, but I'd like to know more. If there is a legitimate gripe that can be resolved then the school should address it. If some future physicians are just having a tantrum over something they don't want to do, then the school is better off in the long run not accommodating them.

 

[Miles Gloriosus]

Maybe you missed the first part of my statement "Yes, the individual students have a responsibility to complete their evaluations as part of their professionalism standards". OP completed their evaluation, meeting their responsibility. The school hasn't provided feedback on their performance. There's no LCME standard that says OP is responsible for pressuring his fellow students to completing theirs. The school is an entity, students are individuals and shouldn't be held responsible for what their colleagues did or didn't do.

I agree there a real world argument to be made that life often isn't fair, but I think the more salient argument would be that this method is not achieving the school's objectives of obtaining and maybe they should try a different tactic. I would note that I haven't given OP specific advice on how to address this issue I only agree with them that's it's unfair and I think anyone defending the admin should consider that their school didn't have this system (unless I missed it) and how it might have impacted their medical school stress if they had.

Unfortunately it’s not just up to the OP, it’s a community effort.

If the OP completed the Census but people in his community didn’t, his community would lose federal funds, like infrastructure funding. . Then people like the OP would post online complain that the government is to blame for the crumbling roads/pot holes in his area.

We live in a world where you have to rely on others around you to be responsible and not have apathy with filling out easy/low time consuming forms like a survey/census form or election ballot. If enough people don’t prioritize doing these things or don’t care about the consequences, then the entire class/community loses out, even the people who are responsible citizens. Harsh reality and best to accept it now.

 

[Miles Gloriosus]

I agree there a real world argument to be made that life often isn't fair, but I think the more salient argument would be that this method is not achieving the school's objectives of obtaining and maybe they should try a different tactic. I would note that I haven't given OP specific advice on how to address this issue I only agree with them that's it's unfair and I think anyone defending the admin should consider that their school didn't have this system (unless I missed it) and how it might have impacted their medical school stress if they

Ok, how about petition the admins to treat the students like elementary students and throw a pizza party each time >80% students fill out the survey. Maybe copy the 1990’s Pizza Hut Book It program. Each student can get a gold star for each survey filled out and a yummy personal pizza at the end. Would that be good enough?

 

[Med Ed]

Each student can get a gold star for each survey filled out and a yummy personal pizza at the end. Would that be good enough?

In theory, but you'd have to sort through all the food allergies and dietary preferences. And there's always going to be someone who says Lombardi's is better. Unless you're ordering from Lombardi's, in which case Grimaldi's is better.

 

[and 99 others]

Maybe you missed the first part of my statement "Yes, the individual students have a responsibility to complete their evaluations as part of their professionalism standards". OP completed their evaluation, meeting their responsibility. The school hasn't provided feedback on their performance. There's no LCME standard that says OP is responsible for pressuring his fellow students to completing theirs. The school is an entity, students are individuals and shouldn't be held responsible for what their colleagues did or didn't do.

I agree there a real world argument to be made that life often isn't fair, but I think the more salient argument would be that this method is not achieving the school's objectives of obtaining and maybe they should try a different tactic. I would note that I haven't given OP specific advice on how to address this issue I only agree with them that's it's unfair and I think anyone defending the admin should consider that their school didn't have this system (unless I missed it) and how it might have impacted their medical school stress if they had.

I will also say that even after reaching 80%, the school didn't immediately release grades as they promised. Instead we waited 2 to 3 additional days.

Among many things, it's the pontificating on "you must meet your professional expectations" followed by even more unprofessional behavior by admin that gets me.

 

[LucidSplash]

Wait until you find out about the average accounts receivable days for medical reimbursement.

 

[LucidSplash]

I will also say that even after reaching 80%, the school didn't immediately release grades as they promised. Instead we waited 2 to 3 additional days.

Among many things, it's the pontificating on "you must meet your professional expectations" followed by even more unprofessional behavior by admin that gets me.

I think you’ll find that “Whataboutism” is not a helpful strategy in life. In almost all situations, you are ethically, legally, and morally responsible for your own behavior despite what others do.

In addition you have a stronger case to make to promote policy change if the collective you (class) complete the evals in a timely manner. You’re unlikely to find administration has sympathy for your frustration at 2-3 days additional delay if it takes weeks past a deadline for the 80% threshold to be met. My guess is 1) releasing grades is just one responsibility on someone’s plate in addition to a host of other responsibilities, 2) no one is sitting by the computer staring at the screen waiting for that 80% target to hit so they can release the grades instantaneously, 3) whoever’s responsibility it is, is probably a weekday administrative assistant-level worker so business days are a thing, and 4) if it were me I would assume the class as a whole doesn’t care all that much as they were delayed weeks in getting the evals in so getting the grades out at that point wouldn’t be a priority of mine in the million other responsibilities a given worker bee has.

In short, get your own house in order and then you can rightly try to get someone else/an institution to change their behavior.

We get it. You’re pissed that you have to wait for your grades. You’ve been validated that this is frustrating and validated that your emotions are understandable. You’ve been validated that it would be nice for you if the administration magically changed their policy. It all amounts to the young person version of “old man yells at cloud.”

I stand by my original assessment that this thread has gone on a ridiculous length for this issue, when, as far as you’ve communicated, not all that much has been done by the class to address the issue beyond the class officers sending a couple of emails. If it bothers you THIS month, time to think outside the (lazy) email sending box.

This is the kind of circuitous conversation I’m used to having with my 12-year old nephew, not so-called adults. And even he can see the value in trying to problem-solve on his own and after the initial “Waaaah life isn’t fair” vent that is normal and expected at his age, usually asks for help to brainstorm problem-solving strategies if it’s important to him.

But maybe I’m just misreading all this from you and you don’t care enough to change it, you just wanted to scream into the void as I alluded to earlier. If so, say so and (at least I’ll) stop trying to help and will just scroll on by.

 

[throwaway123342]

So many admin simps here. If the med school asked you to do 15 jumping jacks before they would release your grades, half of you on here would say "well, its not that bad".

These evals are worthless. Admins do basic lip service to pat themselves on the back, then promptly throw away the many other valid criticisms of their course material. Its an insult to every student's intelligence to fill these evals out.

 

[LucidSplash]

So many admin simps here. If the med school asked you to do 15 jumping jacks before they would release your grades, half of you on here would say "well, its not that bad".

These evals are worthless. Admins do basic lip service to pat themselves on the back, then promptly throw away the many other valid criticisms of their course material. Its an insult to every student's intelligence to fill these evals out.

Cool cool. I look forward to following your career, Dr. Intern.

 

[Kierkegaard's Bud]

I will also say that even after reaching 80%, the school didn't immediately release grades as they promised. Instead we waited 2 to 3 additional days.

Among many things, it's the pontificating on "you must meet your professional expectations" followed by even more unprofessional behavior by admin that gets me.

sounds like a student that will ask for one additional point when they have a 96

 

[Miles Gloriosus]

So many admin simps here. If the med school asked you to do 15 jumping jacks before they would release your grades, half of you on here would say "well, its not that bad".

These evals are worthless. Admins do basic lip service to pat themselves on the back, then promptly throw away the many other valid criticisms of their course material. Its an insult to every student's intelligence to fill these evals out.

…..Okay, for the physical requirements. You are required to pass a physical fitness assessment every year. How often will depend on the branch and on how well you do. I can speak generally for the other branches, but since I'm Navy, I know the most about that.

In the Navy, the PFA is a body composition assessment (BCA) (height/weight) and a physical readiness test. If you fail the BCA, you fail. If you pass the BCA, you move on and do the readiness test (usually a few days or so later). It is core, upper body, and cardio. The test recently changed, so this is what it looks like now.

The first event is pushups. How many you have to do to pass or max out depends on your age and gender, but generally a 24 year old will have to do 47 pushups to get a Good-Low for males and 21 for females for the same score.

The second event is forearm planks. The scoring is based on age. It is the same for both males and females. The minimum for a 24 year old to get a Good-Low is 2:05. The maximum is 3:35.

The final event is cardio. The typical way to do this is a 1.5 mile run. For 24 year old males, 12:00 is Good-Low; for 24 yo females, it is 14:15. You can also swim, bike, or do a 2K row (that's new).

In the Navy, if you overall get an excellent-low as your average, you only have to take the PRT once a year.

The Army uses the ACFT, which is this crazy test where you throw a ball, do some deadlifts, drag a dummy, sprint, and some other crap. The Air Force is still pushups, situps, run I think.

Other than the PFA, you are not required to do any sort of physical training. It is highly recommended, because PFA failures look really bad and will affect promotion and retention eventually. But it is not required. Some people PT together, most on their own. In COVID world, we are not allowed to do group PT on the base anymore. But there is a track and two gyms you can use on your own.

I guess there is one med school we can rule out you went to….

(My last post on this thread)

 

[LeaveNoTrace]

I don't like the collective aspect of things at all. This is how it is done at my school:

Students cannot see their final course grades or exam scores until they complete an evaluation; professors cannot see student evaluations until they have submitted course grades.

That way, we aren't held up by the action (or inaction) of medical students that aren't filling out evals.

 

[xDNA]

I wonder if OP grades are p/f ?
I'm assuming not?
Our school will give us professionalism strikes if you have a consistent history of not doing evaluations. I think thats worst simply because that could affect your residency chances.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

I wonder if OP grades are p/f ?
I'm assuming not?
Our school will give us professionalism strikes if you have a consistent history of not doing evaluations. I think thats worst simply because that could affect your residency chances.

Unless the time period to do the evaluation is very small, then I don't think that's unreasonable.

If I don't do required things in the given time (renewing license, DEA registration, patient notes/calls/messages, reviewing results, doing hospital required training, and so on), I can get punished pretty severely.

 

[xDNA]

Unless the time period to do the evaluation is very small, then I don't think that's unreasonable.

If I don't do required things in the given time (renewing license, DEA registration, patient notes/calls/messages, reviewing results, doing hospital required training, and so on), I can get punished pretty severely.

I dont think its unfair, I understand the idea that in this profession we're gonna have to do these maintenance type things in a timely manner or there could be repercussions like you mentioned. Tbf, I think they do give us plenty of time, and its not like the evaluations are crazy long or anything.