Does anyone else's school hold their exam grades hostage?

[and 99 others]

Every block, our school refuses to release exam and module score grades until 80% of students have filled out course evaluations. On top of that, if we don't reach 80% by a given deadline they make us wait even longer for every subsequent block. Literally punishing us. Whenever I think about this it makes me go crazy because it seems so egregiously inappropriate. Not only that but we take our exams remotely using exam software so theoretically we could have at least our raw scores literally as soon as we finish exams but instead it takes days/weeks.

I think there is some burden on the school to receive X% of evals for accreditation purposes and that's why they have this policy but frankly, I feel there are more appropriate ways, like offering an extra point if we fill them out or even just making it an assignment worth 1 or 2 points (honestly still opposed to this because it is fundamentally not our responsibility to make sure that X amount of evals are filled out, but at least its better than using such overt negative reinforcement).

It feels incredibly adversarial and heinous given how so much emotion and anxiety is wrapped up in receiving these scores and the school is just dangling them in front of us to force us to do what they want. Surely this can't be common practice across medical schools. I'm wondering how other schools handle exam scores and evaluations.

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[FutureInternist]

Can’t pass my ACLS for my job until I fill out my eval….

Its stupid… but it is the way it is

 

[Goro]

Every block, our school refuses to release exam and module score grades until 80% of students have filled out course evaluations. On top of that, if we don't reach 80% by a given deadline they make us wait even longer for every subsequent block. Literally punishing us. Whenever I think about this it makes me go crazy because it seems so egregiously inappropriate. Not only that but we take our exams remotely using exam software so theoretically we could have at least our raw scores literally as soon as we finish exams but instead it takes days/weeks.

I think there is some burden on the school to receive X% of evals for accreditation purposes and that's why they have this policy but frankly, I feel there are more appropriate ways, like offering an extra point if we fill them out or even just making it an assignment worth 1 or 2 points (honestly still opposed to this because it is fundamentally not our responsibility to make sure that X amount of evals are filled out, but at least its better than using such overt negative reinforcement).

It feels incredibly adversarial and heinous given how so much emotion and anxiety is wrapped up in receiving these scores and the school is just dangling them in front of us to force us to do what they want. Surely this can't be common practice across medical schools. I'm wondering how other schools handle exam scores and evaluations.

I heard of schools doing this. We don't at my school, but I can understand the rationale.

Your solution is more of a bribe to fulfill a professional expectation.

Your school is using instead a more employment style of, well, coercion. Like docking your pay for not doing your job.

 

[and 99 others]

I heard of schools doing this. We don't at my school, but I can understand the rationale.

Your solution is more of a bribe to fulfill a professional expectation.

Your school is using instead a more employment style of, well, coercion. Like docking your pay for not doing your job.

I disagree that it is part of our job to fill out evaluations, which is why I have such a fundamental opposition to this. There is no part of my responsibilities as a student to ensure that I fill out evaluations, especially if I don't go to lecture or interact with the professors in any meaningful way, which is the case for many, many students.

Most relevantly, if it WERE part of our responsibilities, then it wouldn't be something that only 80% of the student population needs to complete. If it's an obligation, it should be so for all students and be reflected as like a separate grade or something.

 

[operaman]

For CME the evals are a requirement to get the credits, at least for everything I’ve done so far. So sad to say but you’ll be dealing with this for as long as you hold an active license.

 

[Goro]

I disagree that it is part of our job to fill out evaluations, which is why I have such a fundamental opposition to this. There is no part of my responsibilities as a student to ensure that I fill out evaluations, especially if I don't go to lecture or interact with the professors in any meaningful way, which is the case for many, many students.

Most relevantly, if it WERE part of our responsibilities, then it wouldn't be something that only 80% of the student population needs to complete. If it's an obligation, it should be so for all students and be reflected as like a separate grade or something.

The only way we faculty know how to improve our courses and teaching is to get student feedback.

But if I only get twelve we people responding, and six say "Dr Goro sucks!" and the other six say "I love Dr Goro!", that's not helpful.

You owe to your fellow students in the next class to help us. You'll be giving feedback to students as a resident, so you might as well start learningnow.

And given that your school requires you to give said feedback you do it.

The 80% mark gives us enough valuable feedback and prevents those people with grudges from just stinking up the atmosphere. Telling your Faculty that they suck doesn't help them unsuck, does it now?

 

[Med Ed]

LCME Standard 8.5 - Medical Student Feedback

In evaluating medical education program quality, a medical school has formal processes in place to collect and consider medical student evaluations of their courses, clerkships, and teachers, and other relevant information.

Moreover, required question #64 for the Independent Student Analysis assesses "Medical school responsiveness to student feedback on courses/clerkships."

When it comes to course/clerkship feedback, we want to spend our time reading it about as much as you want to spend your time writing it. But since we all want to be part of accredited institutions, then sometimes we all just need to grit our teeth and do what we have to do.

 

[Putkernerinthehall]

Every block, our school refuses to release exam and module score grades until 80% of students have filled out course evaluations. On top of that, if we don't reach 80% by a given deadline they make us wait even longer for every subsequent block. Literally punishing us. Whenever I think about this it makes me go crazy because it seems so egregiously inappropriate. Not only that but we take our exams remotely using exam software so theoretically we could have at least our raw scores literally as soon as we finish exams but instead it takes days/weeks.

I think there is some burden on the school to receive X% of evals for accreditation purposes and that's why they have this policy but frankly, I feel there are more appropriate ways, like offering an extra point if we fill them out or even just making it an assignment worth 1 or 2 points (honestly still opposed to this because it is fundamentally not our responsibility to make sure that X amount of evals are filled out, but at least its better than using such overt negative reinforcement).

It feels incredibly adversarial and heinous given how so much emotion and anxiety is wrapped up in receiving these scores and the school is just dangling them in front of us to force us to do what they want. Surely this can't be common practice across medical schools. I'm wondering how other schools handle exam scores and evaluations.

What's curious to me is why don't all of the students in your class just turn the stupid evals in right after the exam or at least later that day. How hard can it be?

 

[Med Ed]

What's curious to me is why don't all of the students in your class just turn the stupid evals in right after the exam or at least later that day. How hard can it be?

Slightly more difficult than getting six giraffes to urinate at the same time.

 

[Putkernerinthehall]

Slightly more difficult than getting six giraffes to urinate at the same time.

Maybe so....but 80% return rate on something that will hold up release of grades doesn't seem that hard. 5 of 6 giraffes still seems hard though.

 

[and 99 others]

What's curious to me is why don't all of the students in your class just turn the stupid evals in right after the exam or at least later that day. How hard can it be?

Because they are mentally and emotionally exhausted after 3 straight weeks of studying all day everyday and don't want to engage with yet another menial task right then. Because a majority of them are traveling immediately after exams are over and are preoccupied with those logistics and spending time with their families. Because many of them have not interacted with any of the professors in any meaningful way and have no evaluation to offer. Because many of them have A LOT to say and want to be thorough. Because many of them also philosophically oppose being strongarmed into doing something just so that they can receive information that they are entitled to.

I can go on. It's easy to say, "ok but why dont they just do it??" but in a class of hundreds of people there are lots of variables at play. My point is not whether they should or shouldn't do their evals and I understand that we all want to be a part of accredited institutions. I'm saying that it is gross to tie up evals with something that is so sensitive and deeply anxiety provoking for so many students.

 

[NITRAS]

Because they are mentally and emotionally exhausted after 3 straight weeks of studying all day everyday and don't want to engage with yet another menial task right then. Because a majority of them are traveling immediately after exams are over and are preoccupied with those logistics and spending time with their families. Because many of them have not interacted with any of the professors in any meaningful way and have no evaluation to offer. Because many of them have A LOT to say and want to be thorough. Because many of them also philosophically oppose being strongarmed into doing something just so that they can receive information that they are entitled to.

I can go on. It's easy to say, "ok but why dont they just do it??" but in a class of hundreds of people there are lots of variables at play. My point is not whether they should or shouldn't do their evals and I understand that we all want to be a part of accredited institutions. I'm saying that it is gross to tie up evals with something that is so sensitive and deeply anxiety provoking for so many students.

Welcome to medicine. I have so many stupid things I have to do. Dare I say, you will have more of these things in residency. Some of them get better as an attending, but they still exist. And evaluations for medical school curriculum are actually important.

I’m not trying to sound harsh, but this makes you seem whiny and entitled.

 

[threepwood]

It takes days for us to receive our exam scores too even though they're on software. Evals are part of our professional competency requirement. You should channel this energy into encouraging your classmates to fill out their evals on time like professionals

 

[Putkernerinthehall]

Because they are mentally and emotionally exhausted after 3 straight weeks of studying all day everyday and don't want to engage with yet another menial task right then. Because a majority of them are traveling immediately after exams are over and are preoccupied with those logistics and spending time with their families. Because many of them have not interacted with any of the professors in any meaningful way and have no evaluation to offer. Because many of them have A LOT to say and want to be thorough. Because many of them also philosophically oppose being strongarmed into doing something just so that they can receive information that they are entitled to.

I can go on. It's easy to say, "ok but why dont they just do it??" but in a class of hundreds of people there are lots of variables at play. My point is not whether they should or shouldn't do their evals and I understand that we all want to be a part of accredited institutions. I'm saying that it is gross to tie up evals with something that is so sensitive and deeply anxiety provoking for so many students.

I totally get it, but little sympathy here. The real world (medicine or elsewhere) is full of this stuff. You learn to just knock out things like this --- the more anxiety-inducing the non-compliance, the more reason to just do it.

 

[DarkBluMage]

That’s honestly crazy to me. It’s your grade and you need to know what it is so that you know what to prepare for, i.e. remediation or moving on.
As for people talking about the other students, you can’t make people do what you want them to do. If a student is burnt out and doesn’t feel like doing the eval asap or traveling or needs more time to throughly complete the eval or whatever then no amount of pleading from another classmate is going to change that. I personally find it unprofessional to not release a students scores in a timely manner. If evals are so important then make it a part of the grade calculations or bonus points so that they’re completed by enough of the class by the end of the units. It’s not whiny or entitled to want to know your grade that affects your future and studies going forward. You can’t control what the majority of the class does, you can only control what you do. Get a grip.

 

[DarkBluMage]

My school simply knocks off a certain amount of professionalism points if evals aren’t completed by the end of the unit. Usually we are given until a week after scores are released before they start threatening that.

 

[xffan624]

I agree with OP. This policy is unfair to the students who complete their evaluations in a timely manner while still waiting on their colleagues. My school did not do anything like this. Maybe you can suggest a more fair process that still motivates/punishes students (since your school seems to like to do this). Grades are only released to students individually after they complete their evaluations without the 80% threshold. I'm sure they'll get to the 80% pretty quickly as most students want to know their grades.

 

[Med Ed]

Because they are mentally and emotionally exhausted after 3 straight weeks of studying all day everyday and don't want to engage with yet another menial task right then.

Good thing medicine doesn't have a lot of menial tasks to complete while exhausted.

Edit: How much time do you have after the exam to turn in the evals?

 

[Med Ed]

Maybe so....but 80% return rate on something that will hold up release of grades doesn't seem that hard.

It shouldn't be. But almost every time I have seen a relatively harsh policy enacted it's after a kinder, gentler approach was attempted and failed.

 

[and 99 others]

Welcome to medicine. I have so many stupid things I have to do. Dare I say, you will have more of these things in residency. Some of them get better as an attending, but they still exist. And evaluations for medical school curriculum are actually important.

I’m not trying to sound harsh, but this makes you seem whiny and entitled.

Good thing medicine doesn't have a lot of menial tasks to complete while exhausted.

Edit: How much time do you have after the exam to turn in the evals?

The logic of "Yeah this thing sucks but that's just how it is so you better not voice disdain for it otherwise you're entitled" will never make sense to me.

My issue isn't with the fact that there are menial tasks to complete. My point is that there are obviously more appropriate, easily actionable alternatives to have us do evals that don't involve the school taking such an adversarial approach. And just because things like this will happen at other points in medicine doesn't make those situations or this eval topic justified.

 

[and 99 others]

I totally get it, but little sympathy here. The real world (medicine or elsewhere) is full of this stuff. You learn to just knock out things like this --- the more anxiety-inducing the non-compliance, the more reason to just do it.

The problem is, it's not as anxiety inducing for everyone, thus not everyone will have as much of a reason to do it. Making the ENTIRE class contingent on that is pretty ridiculous and is also really wild to me because it not only causes a bad relationship with faculty but creates animosity among students.

 

[Med Ed]

The logic of "Yeah this thing sucks but that's just how it is so you better not voice disdain for it otherwise you're entitled" will never make sense to me.

My issue isn't with the fact that there are menial tasks to complete. My point is that there are obviously more appropriate, easily actionable alternatives to have us do evals that don't involve the school taking such an adversarial approach. And just because things like this will happen at other points in medicine doesn't make those situations or this eval topic justified.

You didn't answer my question.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

My issue isn't with the fact that there are menial tasks to complete. My point is that there are obviously more appropriate, easily actionable alternatives to have us do evals that don't involve the school taking such an adversarial approach. And just because things like this will happen at other points in medicine doesn't make those situations or this eval topic justified.

Sorry that my suggestion for a full tuition scholarship incentive had to be changed to a randomly awarded $3 Starbucks credit.

 

[xffan624]

Sorry that my suggestion for a full tuition scholarship incentive had to be changed to a randomly awarded $3 Starbucks credit.

My residency program used to motivate us to complete our patient discharge summaries in 24 hours with $3 credit at the hospital cafeteria per completed summary. The month or two on newborn nursery was definitely the time to make bank and pay for lunch for a good chunk of the year as the baby couldn't go home without one so it was a guaranteed completion plus tons of volume.

 

[Redpancreas]

Every block, our school refuses to release exam and module score grades until 80% of students have filled out course evaluations. On top of that, if we don't reach 80% by a given deadline they make us wait even longer for every subsequent block. Literally punishing us. Whenever I think about this it makes me go crazy because it seems so egregiously inappropriate. Not only that but we take our exams remotely using exam software so theoretically we could have at least our raw scores literally as soon as we finish exams but instead it takes days/weeks.

I think there is some burden on the school to receive X% of evals for accreditation purposes and that's why they have this policy but frankly, I feel there are more appropriate ways, like offering an extra point if we fill them out or even just making it an assignment worth 1 or 2 points (honestly still opposed to this because it is fundamentally not our responsibility to make sure that X amount of evals are filled out, but at least its better than using such overt negative reinforcement).

It feels incredibly adversarial and heinous given how so much emotion and anxiety is wrapped up in receiving these scores and the school is just dangling them in front of us to force us to do what they want. Surely this can't be common practice across medical schools. I'm wondering how other schools handle exam scores and evaluations.

I don’t understand why they don’t make you evaluate the course at the end of your exam.

 

[Kierkegaard's Bud]

I don’t understand why they don’t make you evaluate the course at the end of your exam.

That is the best solution. Make it so that one can’t submit without fully completing evals but that’s a technical solution that’s out of their scope perhaps

 

[and 99 others]

You didn't answer my question.

There's no time limit. You just don't get your scores back till 80% of the class submits.

 

[Med Ed]

There's no time limit. You just don't get your scores back till 80% of the class submits.

From your original post (emphasis added):

"On top of that, if we don't reach 80% by a given deadline they make us wait even longer for every subsequent block."

 

[Med Ed]

I don’t understand why they don’t make you evaluate the course at the end of your exam.

The system for administering exams is usually completely different from the system for aggregating course feedback.

 

[Med Ed]

Grades are only released to students individually after they complete their evaluations without the 80% threshold. I'm sure they'll get to the 80% pretty quickly as most students want to know their grades.

My assessment office would riot if they had to track individual evals and release individual grades to each student after every exam.

And what happens when a student simply refuses to complete any evals?

 

[DarkBluMage]

My assessment office would riot if they had to track individual evals and release individual grades to each student after every exam.

And what happens when a student simply refuses to complete any evals?

Imagine how students feel not receiving their grades when they’ve done their evals because they don’t have control over other students in their class not doing theirs. It’s interesting that’s not seen as an issue though. So unprofessional smh.

 

[Kierkegaard's Bud]

The system for administering exams is usually completely different from the system for aggregating course feedback.

This shows lack of technical knowledge. You can have one exam within which there is the medical exam and the eval at the end, and on the backend you can aggregate the data from each in different places. If you want to be super fancy, you can even sprinkle the eval questions within the medical exam and make it a short intermittent breaks from the medical portion.

Btw im not expecting this level of creativity from a field like medicine

 

[Med Ed]

This shows lack of technical knowledge. You can have one exam within which there is the medical exam and the eval at the end, and on the backend you can aggregate the data from each in different places. If you want to be super fancy, you can even sprinkle the eval questions within the medical exam and make it a short intermittent breaks from the medical portion.

Btw im not expecting this level of creativity from a field like medicine

Say my institution administers its basic science exams using the NBME's Customized Assessment Service. How should we go about implementing your idea? Explain it to me like I'm five.

 

[Kierkegaard's Bud]

Say my institution administers its basic science exams using the NBME's Customized Assessment Service. How should we go about implementing your idea? Explain it to me like I'm five.

Per NBME website, "Rather than a fixed-form exam, Customized Assessment Services provides medical school faculty with the ability to review and select individual items to be included on an exam."

Since the platform allows for collaboration, a medical school can say, hey NBME, we will sign a 5-year lease to administer our exams through your platform only, but we need something for you; students have been lazy to fill out evals that we (dearly) value so lets us add our evaluation questions to the exam as we see fit as they won't intrinsically affect it.

The medical school could have its technology officer, who probably already has to access the backend of the NBME exam platform (to choose the customized questions for NBME from the tech pov), and that person can add eval questions.

This requires technological foresight and some work which apparently no one wants to do, but once such a system is in place, it will run smoothly, and idiotic hassling will be a thing of the past.

 

[Med Ed]

Per NBME website, "Rather than a fixed-form exam, Customized Assessment Services provides medical school faculty with the ability to review and select individual items to be included on an exam."

Since the platform allows for collaboration

This statement does not reflect collaboration. It simply means that exams are built by users from an existing pool of test questions. This is in contrast to purchasing a pre-made test form.

a medical school can say, hey NBME, we will sign a 5-year lease to administer our exams through your platform only, but we need something for you; students have been lazy to fill out evals that we (dearly) value so lets us add our evaluation questions to the exam as we see fit as they won't intrinsically affect it.

And the NBME says no, because that would be a huge lift for them in return for a paltry 5 years of exam fees from one school.

The medical school could have its technology officer, who probably already has to access the backend of the NBME exam platform (to choose the customized questions for NBME from the tech pov), and that person can add eval questions.

The exam system runs through a specialized online portal and no one at the school has access to its code. Item selection is done through a separate portal accessible via web browser.

This requires technological foresight and some work which apparently no one wants to do, but once such a system is in place, it will run smoothly, and idiotic hassling will be a thing of the past.

Alternative approach: the students fill out their evals faster.

 

[and 99 others]

From your original post (emphasis added):

"On top of that, if we don't reach 80% by a given deadline they make us wait even longer for every subsequent block."

Ah I see what you're saying. That deadline is like a week after the exams, but once the class misses it once, there is effectively no deadline.

 

[Kierkegaard's Bud]

This statement does not reflect collaboration. It simply means that exams are built by users from an existing pool of test questions. This is in contrast to purchasing a pre-made test form.


And the NBME says no, because that would be a huge lift for them in return for a paltry 5 years of exam fees from one school.


The exam system runs through a specialized online portal and no one at the school has access to its code. Item selection is done through a separate portal accessible via web browser.


Alternative approach: the students fill out their evals faster.

I like the optimism, "runs through a specialized portal," you make it sound like a pentagon firewall; it's a basic code, and the process is malleable.

Has anyone at the school ever asked NBME for their code?

Your made-up counterargument does not nullify my point; in reality, it can be done, but it requires work. Students clearly aren't filling out this thing; trying to jam it down their throats does not give you good data or relationships with them. Also, a majority don't use the NBME service and can implement this overnight. Hence my original point stands.

 

[DarkBluMage]

I like the optimism, "runs through a specialized portal," you make it sound like a pentagon firewall, it's a basic code.

Your made-up counterargument does not nullify my point, in reality, it can be done, but it requires work. Students clearly aren't filling out this thing, trying to jam it down their throats does not give you good data or relationships with them.

Doesn’t that cause an issue with anonymity? Evals are supposed to be anonymous. Collecting it that way would cause there to be a record of the student completing a particular eval. Doesn’t sound like a good idea either for the quality of the eval. Directly after a 3hr exam no one is going to be filling out an in-depth eval with any actual commentary that would be useful. Would be a lot of bubble filling on neutral to blow through it due to the mental fatigue. We would have over 15+ evals to do for all the courses and professors performance at the end of a unit. That’s overkill directly after an exam. Terrible idea.

 

[Kierkegaard's Bud]

Doesn’t that cause an issue with anonymity? Evals are supposed to be anonymous. Collecting it that way would cause there to be a record of the student completing a particular eval. Doesn’t sound like a good idea either for the quality of the eval. Directly after a 3hr exam no one is going to be filling out an in-depth eval with any actual commentary that would be useful. Would be a lot of bubble filling on neutral to blow through it due to the mental fatigue.

I agree quality might decrease, but students aren't filling it out. When you store the data, you can anonymize it (there is a system you can look up snap surveys) since you can be confident everyone who took the exam did the eval.

 

[DarkBluMage]

I agree quality might decrease, but students aren't filling it out. When you store the data, you can anonymize it (there is a system you can look up snap surveys) since you can be confident everyone who took the exam did the eval.

Students are filling it out. Just not as timely as faculty would prefer or up to 80%. That problem improves by making the eval as part of the students overall grade or affects their professionalism score by a certain deadline. Evals filled out just to blow through it so they can get the hell out of their exam are useless. That’s literally useless data, which makes it pointless to acquire in that manner to begin with.

 

[Med Ed]

I like the optimism, "runs through a specialized portal," you make it sound like a pentagon firewall; it's a basic code, and the process is malleable.

I'm not sure you understand. The system that administers the CAS exams is not housed in the medical school. It's housed with the NBME. When students take their exams the data goes directly to the NBME, which subsequently issues reports of student/item performance to the school. We're basically a glorified Prometric.

Has anyone at the school ever asked NBME for their code?

(215) 590-9500

Let us know what they say.

Your made-up counterargument does not nullify my point; in reality, it can be done, but it requires work. Students clearly aren't filling out this thing; trying to jam it down their throats does not give you good data or relationships with them.

Or (hear me out), the students can just fill out their evals in a timely manner.

 

[Kierkegaard's Bud]

(215) 590-9500

Let us know what they say.

I'm not the one getting paid to be in med ed. Also, students filling it out would be the best option, but it's not been working well per op.

 

[LucidSplash]

This is a long thread for this topic.

I hated filling out evals in med school too. I also had exams every 3 weeks during MS1&2.

Would 100% trade filling out evals for all the stupid meetings I have to go to, which I am not paid for, as an attending.

I sympathize with the OP. This stuff is irritating. But it’s not going to change and the OP has offered no viable alternative for the school to obtain what they are required to obtain. OP maintains it isn’t their responsibility but they do want to attend an accredited medical school and accredited medical school must collect evals to stay accredited. Therefore, it is in OP and classmates interest to fill out evals.

If this irritates OP to this extent, I hate to tell them, they will have to continue to deal with this kind of stuff as they progress in their career, ad nauseum. Wait until OP finds out about “peer reviews” with people who aren’t in your specialty or may not even have their experience, education, or credentials. Wait until they have to write appeal letters to get standard of care testing and procedures approved by publicly traded for profit insurance companies.

OP I do sympathize. But if you’re going to avoid burnout, I would save this level of indignation and righteous anger for the really big problems in medicine. It shouldn’t be our jobs spending extra hours of work to get insurance companies to pay for things they should pay for, but that is the current state of things. If you get this bent about evals, I am concerned you may not have the stamina for the rest of the bull**** in medicine.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

For CME the evals are a requirement to get the credits, at least for everything I’ve done so far. So sad to say but you’ll be dealing with this for as long as you hold an active license.

This is a long thread for this topic.

I hated filling out evals in med school too. I also had exams every 3 weeks during MS1&2.

Would 100% trade filling out evals for all the stupid meetings I have to go to, which I am not paid for, as an attending.

I sympathize with the OP. This stuff is irritating. But it’s not going to change and the OP has offered no viable alternative for the school to obtain what they are required to obtain. OP maintains it isn’t their responsibility but they do want to attend an accredited medical school and accredited medical school must collect evals to stay accredited. Therefore, it is in OP and classmates interest to fill out evals.

If this irritates OP to this extent, I hate to tell them, they will have to continue to deal with this kind of stuff as they progress in their career, ad nauseum. Wait until OP finds out about “peer reviews” with people who aren’t in your specialty or may not even have their experience, education, or credentials. Wait until they have to write appeal letters to get standard of care testing and procedures approved by publicly traded for profit insurance companies.

OP I do sympathize. But if you’re going to avoid burnout, I would save this level of indignation and righteous anger for the really big problems in medicine. It shouldn’t be our jobs spending extra hours of work to get insurance companies to pay for things they should pay for, but that is the current state of things. If you get this bent about evals, I am concerned you may not have the stamina for the rest of the bull**** in medicine.

/thread

 

[xffan624]

This is a long thread for this topic.

I hated filling out evals in med school too. I also had exams every 3 weeks during MS1&2.

Would 100% trade filling out evals for all the stupid meetings I have to go to, which I am not paid for, as an attending.

I sympathize with the OP. This stuff is irritating. But it’s not going to change and the OP has offered no viable alternative for the school to obtain what they are required to obtain. OP maintains it isn’t their responsibility but they do want to attend an accredited medical school and accredited medical school must collect evals to stay accredited. Therefore, it is in OP and classmates interest to fill out evals.

If this irritates OP to this extent, I hate to tell them, they will have to continue to deal with this kind of stuff as they progress in their career, ad nauseum. Wait until OP finds out about “peer reviews” with people who aren’t in your specialty or may not even have their experience, education, or credentials. Wait until they have to write appeal letters to get standard of care testing and procedures approved by publicly traded for profit insurance companies.

OP I do sympathize. But if you’re going to avoid burnout, I would save this level of indignation and righteous anger for the really big problems in medicine. It shouldn’t be our jobs spending extra hours of work to get insurance companies to pay for things they should pay for, but that is the current state of things. If you get this bent about evals, I am concerned you may not have the stamina for the rest of the bull**** in medicine.

So how about your workplace withhold your yearly bonus or a portion of your salary until you and your colleagues submit their annual evaluations and reach the 80% threshold? I mean that's fair right? The workplace has to check the box somehow. How else are they going to do it?

You mean workplaces don't do that? They don't punish individual employees because the collective hasn't completed the required threshold and treat you like toddlers.

I don't think OP is arguing against the necessity of collecting evaluations but of the manner of holding grades hostage for the entire class to obtain them. Given OP's complaints that they can go for a while without learning their grades, it doesn't actually seem to be working very well. There's gotta be a better way given I don't think anyone else has actually posted that their school used this method. Other schools don't do it like OP's and are still accredited so maybe they should ask them how they do it?

 

[Niwrad]

Something that’s not mentioned previously:

Instead of using the stick, try the carrot.

Offer students something fun for completing their evaluations. If the school has a cafeteria, maybe a lunch voucher for a cookie or a slice of pizza. An Amazon gift card is always appreciated. If you’re budget conscious you could give them a sticker of appreciation.

 

[Med Ed]

Something that’s not mentioned previously:

Instead of using the stick, try the carrot.

Offer students something fun for completing their evaluations. If the school has a cafeteria, maybe a lunch voucher for a cookie or a slice of pizza. An Amazon gift card is always appreciated. If you’re budget conscious you could give them a sticker of appreciation.

One of the exhausting things about medical education is that everything is a negotiation. There is a presumption that the sharp edges of the world will be sanded down with games, prizes, and meeting everyone where they are. When this stuff comes up at committees the older docs often just sit their with their mouths hanging open.

 

[Med Ed]

Ah I see what you're saying. That deadline is like a week after the exams, but once the class misses it once, there is effectively no deadline.

I admit, it's truly strange that over 1 in 5 of your classmates does not seem to care about seeing their grades.

You should have student representation on the school's curriculum committee. Has this issue been raised there, or otherwise been brought to the school's leadership?

How about student government? Is the class president actively working on a resolution?

 

[FutureInternist]

 

[and 99 others]

This is a long thread for this topic.

I hated filling out evals in med school too. I also had exams every 3 weeks during MS1&2.

Would 100% trade filling out evals for all the stupid meetings I have to go to, which I am not paid for, as an attending.

I sympathize with the OP. This stuff is irritating. But it’s not going to change and the OP has offered no viable alternative for the school to obtain what they are required to obtain. OP maintains it isn’t their responsibility but they do want to attend an accredited medical school and accredited medical school must collect evals to stay accredited. Therefore, it is in OP and classmates interest to fill out evals.

If this irritates OP to this extent, I hate to tell them, they will have to continue to deal with this kind of stuff as they progress in their career, ad nauseum. Wait until OP finds out about “peer reviews” with people who aren’t in your specialty or may not even have their experience, education, or credentials. Wait until they have to write appeal letters to get standard of care testing and procedures approved by publicly traded for profit insurance companies.

OP I do sympathize. But if you’re going to avoid burnout, I would save this level of indignation and righteous anger for the really big problems in medicine. It shouldn’t be our jobs spending extra hours of work to get insurance companies to pay for things they should pay for, but that is the current state of things. If you get this bent about evals, I am concerned you may not have the stamina for the rest of the bull**** in medicine.

I do take your point that medicine is rife with this sort of thing and for longevitys sake, I ought to make peace with it. And to an extent I have.

But I created this thread not to offer a solution, but to get a sense of whether this is common practice among schools (which it seems like it isn't) and to have others offer alternatives based on how their school handles this (which plenty of people did).

I admit, it's truly strange that over 1 in 5 of your classmates does not seem to care about seeing their grades.

You should have student representation on the school's curriculum committee. Has this issue been raised there, or otherwise been brought to the school's leadership?

How about student government? Is the class president actively working on a resolution?

I wanted to get a sense of whether or not this is commonplace before escalating it via those channels. And I genuinely think that over 20% of the class is essentially boycotting.