Does being Asian hurt your chances?

[aprimenumber]

Well, that's what I'm saying, aside from good ECs and assuming everything else is equal, I don't see why the lower GPA/MCAT deserve a spot in med school, regardless of race. Of course, if they served in underprivileged communities, give them an acceptance, otherwise, what contribution could they possibly have?

Because it's not about who "deserves" a spot in medical school. It's about assembling a class who will make a positive impact in tomorrow's healthcare. The notion that spots in medical school should be awarded as a merit prize demonstrate a fallacious belief towards the nature of the profession.

Having said that though, what exactly constitutes the ideal composition that schools aim for? What features of diversity should be targeted? We know that ethnicity is one, so ethnically, should an ideal class composition feature students who ethnically reflect the population demographics of the U.S. (therefore around 70% white)? We know that sex is another feature. Should socioeconomic status be another (have the population of med students from various backgrounds reflect the country's socioeconomic demographics, which would also in theory mean very few students from super super super rich backgrounds)? Maybe geographic backgrounds also?

That's partially why I think the issue of diversity is complex, especially in regards towards affirmative action. Are we trying to get equal representation of all the ethnicities, or accurate representation? Should there be an element of reparation in its nature, or is it better for us to move away from that? Is it meant to counter the inherent privileges experienced by white and Asian people, or does it propagate the problem further by only targeting minorities who've already managed to overcome their racial-related challenges, thereby creating an unfair stigma for those who deserve it the least? Or the reverse, does it place students from disadvantaged backgrounds into settings where they are less likely to succeed?

There are fields where diversity is a lot less important than inherent skill and prowess (i.e. athletics, pure science research). Medicine is not one of those.

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[The Helpful Aye Aye]

Because it's not about who "deserves" a spot in medical school. It's about assembling a class who will make a positive impact in tomorrow's healthcare. The notion that spots in medical school should be awarded as a merit prize demonstrate a fallacious belief towards the nature of the profession.

But, but, I shadowed a doctor and got good grades! :'(

 

[aprimenumber]

But, but, I shadowed a doctor and got good grades! :'(

That's fantastic, do you want a cookie?

 

[Lamel]

Well, that's what I'm saying, aside from good ECs and assuming everything else is equal, I don't see why the lower GPA/MCAT deserve a spot in med school, regardless of race. Of course, if they served in underprivileged communities, give them an acceptance, otherwise, what contribution could they possibly have?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1448596/

 

[Aloft085]

I've read recently on a thread that being an ORM can dramatically reduce your chances, no matter how good your grades, MCAT, activities are. Is this true?

I can't do anything about my ethnicity! Unfair to still use affirmative action in today's world

Sincerely,
wondergirl3

It appears that the answer to your question is "yes". Source: https://www.aamc.org/data/facts/app...mcat-gpa-grid-by-selected-race-ethnicity.html

I agree that racial discrimination should be illegal. It'll probably be a while before our country gets there, however. Just look at the current race riots and protests happening.

 

[The Helpful Aye Aye]

That's fantastic, do you want a cookie?

You know I was being facetious, right? >_<

 

[Aloft085]

Not sure if someone else has mentioned this yet, but Asians disproportionately live in areas with very competitive local medical schools (California, etc). Around a third of all asians in America live in California. So the statistics are probably not wholly due to overt discrimination against ORM. Source: http://www.census.gov/prod/cen2010/briefs/c2010br-11.pdf

 

[aprimenumber]

You know I was being facetious, right? >_<

As was I; I'm keeping the cookie.

 

[RedPhys]

Well, that's what I'm saying, aside from good ECs and assuming everything else is equal, I don't see why the lower GPA/MCAT deserve a spot in med school, regardless of race. Of course, if they served in underprivileged communities, give them an acceptance, otherwise, what contribution could they possibly have?

Well .. in the real world, candidates are not equal. Also, like others in the thread have said, medical schools usually tend to have more asian students than URM students. Having some more URM students could enhance the diverse experience of the student body as a whole. As a URM, I'm certainly glad I was able to attend a university where I got to befriend a lot of Asians (and of the international variety to boot, which allowed me to get to know their cultures). On a smaller (and less international scale), I imagine medical schools strive for that as well, in some sense.

 

[BlueCircle]

I agree with you here, but maybe succeeding despite subtle/pervasive racism should make an applicant look even stronger, especially if they were economically disadvantaged.

I agree with you on that

 

[reapplicanthelpme2014]

I clearly said most. And I don't care to sub-classify people. There are, for instance, more white people living in poverty in this country than the entire black population, but they generally don't get special treatment. I grew up poor, in a rural community, and with no family that had ever completed college (until my mother finished a bachelor's degree she hardly used when I was 13). I was a high school dropout. I worked minimum wage jobs. And you know what? I wasn't bitter at all the kids that had it better than me, because seriously, that wasn't their fault any more than it was my fault that I was born poor. I had a harder time getting admitted than a black or Hispanic kid, but to me, that's fine- their communities need providers that they can trust, and URM candidates are more likely to practice in URM communities, statistically. Asians aren't at a disadvantage in admissions, nor are whites- URMs get a boost, but there's so few of them at a given school that they don't really affect your chances of admission. I'm studying for an exam, so I really can't get too into depth on this, as I'd much rather pass my medical school courses than win an argument on the internet, but basically, when it comes to admissions, you have to work with averages and generalizations, because there's too many applications to be considered individually. Some schools make concessions for certain Asian communities that are underrepresented in medicine in their areas, but most schools simply don't have the time or resources to devote to carefully selecting Asians by splitting every last ethnic, religious, and community hair.

And the Indian community demonstrates that being a first generation immigrant isn't exactly sentencing them to poverty. 87% of the Indian population is 1st generation immigrants, and they do quite well for themselves, even with the language barriers and everything else factored in.

Perfectly said.

 

[miszfifi820]

I don't understand why med schools need diversity. Why would you want a URM who's 3.5, 28 over a guy who's 3.8, 34? Sure, if the URM had incredible ECs, let him in, but there's no reason for him to take the spot of the general 3.8, 34 white guy, just because his race faced ecosociopolitical challenges.

if you have that mentality .. good luck filling out a million secondaries that ask why do you think diversity is important in medical school and the medical community.

how that diversity is attained and the type of diversity needed is a different topic but 99% of med schools can agree that diversity, without a doubt, is needed. you sound like a tool asking why med schools need diversity.

 

[TabletTold92]

Don't like to bring this back to life, but an AdCom specifically told me that green card holders from African countries - i.e. do not mark off "Black/African-American," just "African," - and are not marking off "disadvantaged," due to privileged backgrounds from their countries are not considered for AA or given any special bump in the process. Can any AdComs clarify this?

 

[Geo16]

I was searching the keyword "Unit ceiling" and it brought me here.
Just came here to see why it was related to 'unit ceiling'.. Whoa, didn't expect a long debate.

 

[ChymeofPassion]

I was searching the keyword "Unit ceiling" and it brought me here.
Just came here to see why it was related to 'unit ceiling'.. Whoa, didn't expect a long debate.

Shhhhh, debates like this aren't allowed to happen anymore, anytime someone has any criticism of affirmative action (even if its legitimate) gets banned for trolling and the thread closed. Censorship at its finest.

 

[Lost In Transcription]

Shhhhh, debates like this aren't allowed to happen anymore, anytime someone has any criticism of affirmative action (even if its legitimate) gets banned for trolling and the thread closed. Censorship at its finest.

Hey, dumb***, if you want to talk freely about it, go to the Sociopolitical Forum. That's where, you know, these political arguments go, not spammed on the front page of pre-allo, which is why it is "censored".

 

[ChymeofPassion]

Hey, dumb***, if you want to talk freely about it, go to the Sociopolitical Forum. That's where, you know, these political arguments go, not spammed on the front page of pre-allo, which is why it is "censored".

Hey, dude, can't these, issues, affect, pre-allo, topics? If they were, ya know, off topic, they would be moved via admin, not closed, for posting. Also just because daddy paid for gold membership doesn't mean you are free to name call. This is a professional forum, and starting a post with "Hey, dumb ass" it's certaintly telling on where you are developmentally.

 

[Seth Joo]

I've read recently on a thread that being an ORM can dramatically reduce your chances, no matter how good your grades, MCAT, activities are. Is this true?

I can't do anything about my ethnicity! Unfair to still use affirmative action in today's world

Sincerely,
wondergirl3

I went through the whole medical school application process at both MD and DO schools, yes I would say being Asian makes it much harder to get admission to a medical school than not being Asian, mostly because many Asians tend to have much stronger stats. I know if I was another background I would probably be an MD instead of a DO.

 

[Lost In Transcription]

Hey, dude, can't these, issues, affect, pre-allo, topics? If they were, ya know, off topic, they would be moved via admin, not closed, for posting. Also just because daddy paid for gold membership doesn't mean you are free to name call. This is a professional forum, and starting a post with "Hey, dumb ass" it's certaintly telling on where you are developmentally.

1) Yes they can. But preallo people can go to SPF.
2) If you paid attention to previous AA discussion threads, which I think involved this same suggestion by Lawper, you would find that many of the older members of the forum believed SPF dumps of threads would be really detrimental to the preallo folks, because it's not as friendly an environment
3) The stickied rules about AA threads are clear and pretty fair. I have yet to see someone this year (or probably earlier) post anything novel. It is all in previous threads, and people should just read about it.
4) Lol, gold donation is 35 dollars. That's it. I work full time and have for awhile, so it didn't dent my account. It was worth it for me with the perks you get (editting abilities, etc) and I felt SDN helped me enough that it was warranted. It has nothing to do with me being rude to people I perceive as obtuse on the Internet.
5) It shows that I am sick of people romping into preallo without reading or disregarding the stickies and bumping old AA threads, which is a source of tension of this "professional forum".

Also SPF has already weathered away my SDN niceness unfortunately...

ALSO...don't take it too personally. That was sort of meant for anyone a part of the bump and not sincerely a personal attack.

 

[ChymeofPassion]

1) Yes they can. But preallo people can go to SPF.
2) If you paid attention to previous AA discussion threads, which I think involved this same suggestoon by Lawper, you would find that many of the older members of the forum believed SPF dumps of threads would be really detrimental to the preallo folks, because it's not as friendly an environment
3) The stickied rules about AA threads are clear and pretty fair. I have yet to see someone this year (or probably earlier) post anything novel. It is all in prrvious threads, and people should just read about it.
4) Lol, gold donation is 35 dollars. That's it. I work full time and have for awhile, so it didn't dent my account. It was worth it for me with the perks you get (editting abilities, etc) and I felt SDN helped me enough that it was warranted. It has nothing to do with me being rude to people I perceive as obtuse on the Internet.
5) It shows that I am sick of people romping into preallo without reading or disregarding the stickies and bumping old AA threads, which is a source of tension of this "professional forum".

Also SPF has already weathered away my SDN niceness infortunately...

1. Not going to reply to every post because at job.
2. I understand how niceties can be degraded after years of seeing idiots at sdn.
3. I stand by my point that the deleting of any thread not riddled with blatant racism in AA threads and not moving it the SPF is latent censorship.
Have a good day.