Does Moonlighting exist in Podiatry?

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HalluxSlicer

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There's always lots of talks regarding moonlighting in MD/DO residency world. I'm wondering if moonlighting exist in podiatry as well especially during residency. I did see few threads from the past talking about it but the thread got buried due to being pretty ancient. Any past experiences and suggestions are welcomed! Cheers

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moonlighting as a podiatry resident is rare. There are some residency programs that have established nursing home rounds on the side. In general it is rare.
 
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moonlighting as a podiatry resident is rare. There are some residency programs that have established nursing home rounds on the side. In general it is rare.
Do you know the reason why? Is it because our license level is very limited compared to MD/DOs? Just wondering because it's kinda disheartening finding out that you can't really practice medicine as a DPM
 
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Before addressing the moonlighting, we must address the “practice medicine” comment. We are podiatrists, foot surgeons, foot and ankle surgeons, royal supreme foot experts, and/or doctors but we are limited in scope and do not “practice medicine” in any broad scope. If you got into the field without figuring this out you have a big problem.

There are many reasons for not having much for moonlighting as a resident or attending.

1. We offer a specialized skill set and it is only useful for a subset of patients seen in urgent care or emergency settings (common areas to moonlight). It is not worth having an podiatrist when we can only see 1 in 50 patients who walk in the door.

2. As an attending there is no moonlighting, you are just doing your job. You may practice in two locations with one being your primary job, but in the end you are just filling a work week.

3. Moonlighting typically counts towards the 80 hour work week as a resident. So unless you have a reliably easy residency there is no time. I understand we don’t technically fall under the 80hr ACGME rules, but most medical education departments apply it to their podiatry residents.

4. Most nursing facilities have contracts with companies that bring in a podiatrist. So just popping in and busting some crumblies is not really an option.

5. Depending on state licensing, most residents don’t have unrestricted licenses and thus cannot work without direct oversight. If you bill without the attending seeing the patient, you commited fraud.

The list goes on…
 
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Yeah how are you going to moonlight with a license that limits your scope of practice to the foot and ankle?

I feel like anyone who understands what moonlighting means (in terms of residents moonlighting during residency), would understand why podiatry residents can’t moonlight.

States that give you a full license would theoretically allow you to bust crumblies on the side during residency. But that’s gonna be it.
 
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Thanks for the input. Hearing my MD/DO colleagues tackle their Loans by moonlighting / making extra side cash seemed like an interesting topic to me hence why I brought this topic up to see if there is something like that in Podiatry that is all. As a student, has been difficult adjusting to Podiatry after being involved heavily in the MD/DO world hence why the more I learn about the profession, the more narrowing the scope is going to be. I am saying this in the most respectful manner but it is unfortunate that Podiatry is in this situation separated from the mainstream medicine. Hearing one of the guest lecturer podiatrist at a conference say he was rejected from joining Team USA medical group because DPMs are not recognized internationally (same with Doctors without Borders) seemed super sad and depressing
 
Thanks for the input. Hearing my MD/DO colleagues tackle their Loans by moonlighting / making extra side cash seemed like an interesting topic to me hence why I brought this topic up to see if there is something like that in Podiatry that is all. As a student, has been difficult adjusting to Podiatry after being involved heavily in the MD/DO world hence why the more I learn about the profession, the more narrowing the scope is going to be. I am saying this in the most respectful manner but it is unfortunate that Podiatry is in this situation separated from the mainstream medicine. Hearing one of the guest lecturer podiatrist at a conference say he was rejected from joining Team USA medical group because DPMs are not recognized internationally (same with Doctors without Borders) seemed super sad and depressing

Welcome to the real world. Moonlighting should be the lowest on your priority. Work hard, network and gain the respect of your MD/DO colleagues and it’ll get better.
 
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Some of the podiatry residents I work with are currently doing covid related moonlighting through their hospital. I believe they are being paid 50 bucks an hour, so it's not a bad gig. Essentially they help with covid screenings and testing. Ask your local hospitals if they are in need of help and you may find something that speaks to you.
 
Thanks for the input. Hearing my MD/DO colleagues tackle their Loans by moonlighting / making extra side cash seemed like an interesting topic to me hence why I brought this topic up to see if there is something like that in Podiatry that is all. As a student, has been difficult adjusting to Podiatry after being involved heavily in the MD/DO world hence why the more I learn about the profession, the more narrowing the scope is going to be. I am saying this in the most respectful manner but it is unfortunate that Podiatry is in this situation separated from the mainstream medicine. Hearing one of the guest lecturer podiatrist at a conference say he was rejected from joining Team USA medical group because DPMs are not recognized internationally (same with Doctors without Borders) seemed super sad and depressing
Lol maybe you should have figured this out before going to podiatry school?
 
moonlighting as a podiatry resident is rare. There are some residency programs that have established nursing home rounds on the side. In general it is rare.
This is pretty much the crux of it^^

1) Most states won't give a full license (which you'd need to moonlight) unit partway through or finished with residency. That license will cost more than the limited educational license.
2) Scope is limited, jobs are limited.
3) Any moonlighting takes the small bits of personal, recreation, family, board exam study, etc time that you have.

...so yeah, some places have nursing homes or house calls, etc set up and available (usually through program attendings). I saw a few very lax programs where the one of the residents might cover afternoon or occasional clinic day for local attending PP so the attending used the day for surgery/vaca day... but I doubt their program director was aware/approving of this.

It's your call. It can be done, opportunities are not plentiful for reasons above, you could end up with problems if you are skipping afternoons or off-service rotations to moonlight, and the money you'd make is peanuts compared to what you will bring as an attending. It is not done in the way MDs typically might moonlight in senior resident or fellowship years (night coverage for ER or inpatients).

Consider that it might be more valuable in the grand scheme to just enjoy yourself a bit, work on fitness, practice setting and keeping a logical budget (important skill no matter how much any doc makes), passing boards to max options, job hunting or planning your practice afterwards, etc. There will be residents who pay the interest on their student loans during residency and ones who rack up 100k credit card debts in the same span... a bit of nail care moonlighting typically has little to do with that.
 
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All of the podiatry moonlight stories I hear sound like fraud...

-A podiatry resident performing DFC at a nursing home. What malpractice are they under? Who are they billing under? Are they credentialed with Medicare, Medicare advantage. Is the attending with them?

-Covering an attending's clinic who is on vacation. Is this a private practice office or within their hospital system? They aren't going to be credentialed with insurance. If its wrong for an associate to bill under their partner's contract ie. rendering vs supervising because they aren't credentialed yet then how can an a resident bill under an attending who isn't there. If its a PP office - what malpractice is being used etc.

MD/DO residents who moonlight in general (though they have a lot of options)
-either already have a full license and purchase their own malpractice
-or arrange a favorable circumstance through their own health system and are covered through their resident malpractice
-obviously other options exist
 
All of the podiatry moonlight stories I hear sound like fraud...

-A podiatry resident performing DFC at a nursing home. What malpractice are they under? Who are they billing under? Are they credentialed with Medicare, Medicare advantage. Is the attending with them?

-Covering an attending's clinic who is on vacation. Is this a private practice office or within their hospital system? They aren't going to be credentialed with insurance. If its wrong for an associate to bill under their partner's contract ie. rendering vs supervising because they aren't credentialed yet then how can an a resident bill under an attending who isn't there. If its a PP office - what malpractice is being used etc.

MD/DO residents who moonlight in general (though they have a lot of options)
-either already have a full license and purchase their own malpractice
-or arrange a favorable circumstance through their own health system and are covered through their resident malpractice
-obviously other options exist
LaCrosse WI residency program has (had?) mandatory resident nursing home rounds where the residents do the billing and collect the income. The attending is on site and is essentially volunteering their time. I think it was every 4th saturday or something like that. At least it used to be that way when I visited there in 2014. I doubt it added up to much income but Wisconsin is cheap so maybe it did?

Regardless as everyone else above said if you have time to regularly moonlight you are probably at a crap program. Its 3 years and that income is marginal comapred to what you are potentially missing out on. Go all in on residency. You have 1 shot.
 
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LaCrosse WI residency program has (had?) mandatory resident nursing home rounds where the residents do the billing and collect the income. The attending is on site and is essentially volunteering their time. I think it was every 4th saturday or something like that. At least it used to be that way when I visited there in 2014. I doubt it added up to much income but Wisconsin is cheap so maybe it did?

Regardless as everyone else above said if you have time to regularly moonlight you are probably at a crap program. Its 3 years and that income is marginal comapred to what you are potentially missing out on. Go all in on residency. You have 1 shot.
In Wisconsin 3rd year residents can have full licensure. So it is possible for senior residents to bill/oversee junior residents and if proper credentialing has been completed.
 
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...residents who moonlight in general (though they have a lot of options)
-either already have a full license and purchase their own malpractice
-or arrange a favorable circumstance through their own health system and are covered through their resident malpractice
-obviously other options exist
In a lot of places, malpractice insurance is actually not required for seeing patients (although most of those require the doc to have a proof of high net worth in liquid assets). Any hospital will require you have malpractice to be on staff (otherwise they know they would just have 100% liability to defend any case the doc causes... they want to dump most/all liability on the docs on staff, not just the facility). Most payers might require coverage for the provider to participate also. Nonetheless, for just seeing patients in a moonlighting scenario of house calls or nursing home or office, malpractice is not a firm req in many states. It can be done legally in a lot of places even if the podiatry group's plan doesn't cover the moonlighter either... although a well-run SNF or ECF might require the doc to have a policy.

The loophole is simply that the moonlighter(s) are technically a fully-licensed attending who joined as part of the group to do some work. That lets their work be billed under the group on a temporary basis. On the up and up? No. Illegal? Gray area in most places (assuming there was some minor intent of the podiatry group to potentially retain the hired podiatry moonlighter and sign them up for the payers eventually, ie residency graduation). It is just like how a 4th year ER or OB resident can cover inpatient nocturnist shifts or do some Urgent Care side hustle on their set of days off if they want (fully state licensed, services are billed by the hospital/UC, malpractice assumed via hospital/UC... treated similar to locums docs but with only a tiny fraction of the pay).

The billing concerns are legit if the moonlighting goes on for more than a short term. I would assume that nearly all DPMs moonlighting are billing for their services (or the group/hiring doc is) under the group/business NPI they are working with. That is acceptable in most places (just like it is for locums) if they are considered a purely temp doc or a new hire and in process of getting onto the plans them self (a process they'll never actually complete - and probably won't even start - if it is just temp work, a la locums). If they are just billing under a different doc (instead of the "new hire" under group NPI) for an extended timespan, then that's obviously not ideal.

...Like I said, I think it's a generally bad idea all around. Those hours you might spend making a couple hundred per half day doing nursing homes are usually better spent doing almost anything else during residency (studying, looking for jobs, scrubbing more cases, learning billing with good attending office rotations, reading for personal enrichment, fitness, recreation, travel, etc etc). Besides, that same work can be done as an attending on weekends or days off for MUCH higher rates if the cash is a real high priority. Everyone's situation is different, though.

I had a 20-30+ hour per week job during 2nd and 3rd years of pod school (but none during residency), and while I saved some loans and got some good exp from the extra work, it was not very wise in hindsight. I would have been better off just sleeping better and studying more instead. Whatever tiny bit I gained financially and socially was probably easily negated in slightly lowered class rank, stress and subpar sleep from working weekends and being called in the middle of some nights, missed workouts, stress eating from burning the candle at both ends, etc. It's all a learning exp, though.
 
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