Does this constitute cheating?

[Tin Man]

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I think it's self defeating in that the person taking adderall isn't relying upon themselves to simply *study* without breaking the law/taking adderall without a prescription. How can someone feel good about that and themselves? Taking a test is not the end of the world, no need to treat it like that by taking such a drastic step.

It's not always about breaking the law. For some people, they may be overloaded enough in school to say that they need the help, and if they don't get it, they don't pass the class, ie, no medical school. That could seem like the end of the world to some people, and psychostimulants aren't hard enough to get hold of to make someone feel bad. Technically, it's a victimless crime.

I don't think most people who smoke marijuana feel bad about it, and marijuana is purely recreational. Why would someone feel bad about taking a drug that is actively helping them succeed in life? It's like, carrying a knife on your person is also against the law, but that's the last thing you're going to be worrying about if you ever need it to defend yourself, right?

Also, as I mentioned in an earlier post, it's mostly self defeating due to the method of studying adderall encourages. Adderall is most widely used in cramming type situations, which i've argued is not the primary mode of learning one would hope for in a future doctor. We need problem solvers and conceptual thinkers, not doctors (or any other types of professional) that rely on a powerful stimulant to "learn" the night before a test. If you never practice learning without adderall, how can you ever hope to cope as a professional? Continue the illegal practice?

People being bad studiers doesn't have anything to do with the morality behind using psychostimulants. People who cram will cram anyway. The drug doesn't "encourage" that. Have you ever read a thread on here about how to pass organic chemistry? Usually, the advice is, "make flashcards and memorize everything."

The drug does what it does. How people use it is completely subjective. A person who can memorize trivial information uselessly WITHOUT the drug is going to do it, and get into medical school and do it, and become a doctor and do it. Does that make him a better doctor than the guy who used Ritalin to do the exact same thing?

On the other hand, there are some people who use the drug to actually concentrate and absorb information, the same way I imagine you fancy you study. All it does is enhance concentration. If someone wants to use that brief boost of memorizing power for useless work, then that's their choice. If they want to use it to actually learn, then that's also their choice. If they use it to get high, that's also their choice. But you can't blame the drug for being the problem. If the person can memorize, learn, or get high without the drug, they will exhibit the same habits, just with the drug.

And of course there is nothing inherently self-defeating about someone taking adderall if they truly need it for their ADD. I'm just saying if you don't have ADD, you don't need to enhance your concentration artificially - you just need to stop being lazy and study.

Uh... it's not that easy. Per the DSM-IV on ADHD...

1. Often does not give close attention to details or makes careless mistakes in schoolwork, work, or other activities.
2. Often has trouble keeping attention on tasks or play activities.
3. Often does not seem to listen when spoken to directly.
4. Often does not follow instructions and fails to finish schoolwork, chores, or duties in the workplace (not due to oppositional behavior or failure to understand instructions).
5. Often has trouble organizing activities.
6. Often avoids, dislikes, or doesn't want to do things that take a lot of mental effort for a long period of time (such as schoolwork or homework).
7. Often loses things needed for tasks and activities (such as toys, school assignments, pencils, books, or tools).
8. Is often easily distracted.
9. Often forgetful in daily activities.

The test for ADHD? Honor system questionairre. And given that around 60-85% of all psychological medications are given out by non-psychiatrists, it doesn't take much to get this diagnosis. Can you think of many pre-med students that don't end up with at least six of the symptoms above just due to the stress of the day?

If those are the problems that a drug like Ritalin is designed to help combat, and those are problems experienced by ADHD patient and pre-med student alike, then what's the difference? The drug is combating the same exact problem.

 

[loveoforganic]

Strawman argument. The argument isn't whether people are fine with drug abuse; it's about if people consider taking Adderrall a form of cheating. That being the question, I would say that taking Adderrall (for the purpose of enhancing concentration and alertness) is no different than chugging a few Red Bulls in preparation for an all-nighter.

Stupid, yes. Cheating, no.

Edit: Opinion changed

 

[greatnt249]

Difference: one is illegal, one is not.

Apparently you missed the point of my post...legality or potential for abuse is not the argument; therefore, any claims as such are irrelevant to the actual question at hand.

I'll break it down for you so you can see the non-sequitur.

"Taking Adderrall without a prescription is illegal/has the potential for abuse; therefore, taking it is as so is cheating."

 

[teenmachinery1]

Using amphetamines is obviously cheating. It's not red-bull, or coffee, or rock star- It's much more powerful than these beverages.

It doesn't make you smarter, but it increases your focus and stamina a great deal. If you haven't done it, then you don't know what I'm talking about.

It's cheating because others don't have access to it.

 

[loveoforganic]

It's not always about breaking the law. For some people, they may be overloaded enough in school to say that they need the help, and if they don't get it, they don't pass the class, ie, no medical school. That could seem like the end of the world to some people, and psychostimulants aren't hard enough to get hold of to make someone feel bad. Technically, it's a victimless crime.

I don't think most people who smoke marijuana feel bad about it, and marijuana is purely recreational. Why would someone feel bad about taking a drug that is actively helping them succeed in life? It's like, carrying a knife on your person is also against the law, but that's the last thing you're going to be worrying about if you ever need it to defend yourself, right?



People being bad studiers doesn't have anything to do with the morality behind using psychostimulants. People who cram will cram anyway. The drug doesn't "encourage" that. Have you ever read a thread on here about how to pass organic chemistry? Usually, the advice is, "make flashcards and memorize everything."

The drug does what it does. How people use it is completely subjective. A person who can memorize trivial information uselessly WITHOUT the drug is going to do it, and get into medical school and do it, and become a doctor and do it. Does that make him a better doctor than the guy who used Ritalin to do the exact same thing?

On the other hand, there are some people who use the drug to actually concentrate and absorb information, the same way I imagine you fancy you study. All it does is enhance concentration. If someone wants to use that brief boost of memorizing power for useless work, then that's their choice. If they want to use it to actually learn, then that's also their choice. If they use it to get high, that's also their choice. But you can't blame the drug for being the problem. If the person can memorize, learn, or get high without the drug, they will exhibit the same habits, just with the drug.



Uh... it's not that easy. Per the DSM-IV on ADHD...



The test for ADHD? Honor system questionairre. And given that around 60-85% of all psychological medications are given out by non-psychiatrists, it doesn't take much to get this diagnosis. Can you think of many pre-med students that don't end up with at least six of the symptoms above just due to the stress of the day?

If those are the problems that a drug like Ritalin is designed to help combat, and those are problems experienced by ADHD patient and pre-med student alike, then what's the difference? The drug is combating the same exact problem.

You COMPLETELY left off the diagnostic requirement that the symptoms must have persisted for at least 6 months to a degree that is maladaptive and inconsistent with developmental level.

 

[Tin Man]

I think you just disproved your own point. Steroids do not increase muscle mass, they--to use your own phrase--make your muscles rebuild faster and stronger after the workout. You still have to do a workout. Just like you still have to sit down and study with such behavior-altering drugs. Not to mention we're talking about using them without a prescription in a pre-med thread...

Actually, I made two different points in that thread, and you got them cross-contaminated. I wasn't arguing that taking drugs was "cheating" in sports. I was saying why taking drugs for academics wasn't equivalent with known forms of "cheating", such as stealing tests or hiding an answer key, which would give you that "inherent knowledge."

The sports argument was made differently. I was talking more about rules and regulations as they pertain to purpose (as in, the nonexistent purpose or importance of a game) versus the highly increased risk of steroids. Since steroids used for performance enhancement are taken beyond safe doses in order to get the enhancing effect, the risks are high. If someone takes a psychostimulant, they get the effect within the safe dose, since the drug does what it is supposed to do within that dose. The student is using the drug for what it is supposed to do within that safe dose, not for what it does at overdose, like the athlete taking steroids.

 

[Tin Man]

You COMPLETELY left off the diagnostic requirement that the symptoms must have persisted for at least 6 months to a degree that is maladaptive and inconsistent with developmental level.

6 months is just over a semester. That's enough for any college student to claim symptoms.

And what is the "developmental level" that should be used as the standard? Should we use the developmental level of the brilliant college student that can handle 18 hours of 500+ level classes and still get a good night's sleep?

This has been a common problem with ADD diagnosis ever since the phrase was coined, and a reason why it is so heavily diagnosed. Anyone going through a moderately stressful period in their life will show these symptoms, and by DSM-IV standards, can easily be diagnosed.

That's what's humorous about this. Everyone is assuming that the vast majority of students are using these drugs illegally. I would bet dollars to donuts that I can find a prescription filled out to a lot of them...

 

[greatnt249]

Using amphetamines is obviously cheating. It's not red-bull, or coffee, or rock star- It's much more powerful than these beverages.

It doesn't make you smarter, but it increases your focus and stamina a great deal. If you haven't done it, then you don't know what I'm talking about.

It's cheating because others don't have access to it.

If they wanted to, they could get access to it.

What if I didn't have $15 to buy a few Red Bulls and a pack of cigs? Would everyone else who had Red Bull and chain-smoked all night be cheating then?

 

[minicow]

i have an idea!
lets all get high while preparing for and taking our next test, then stay sober for the next
post results and experiences
problem solved!
👍

 

[Tin Man]

i have an idea!
lets all get high while preparing for and taking our next test, then stay sober for the next
post results and experiences
problem solved!
👍

It's not about getting high... one can actually take a psychostimulant without getting high. In fact, I would imagine they work better that way (depending on the effect you're going for, I suppose).

 

[swamprat]

i voted no. if the person is a ***** they won't understand what they are reading anyway, with or without the aderal. at the same time, if you know the material after who cares, cheating (as in copying an exam or having note cards) means you don't really know the material... and for doctors that would be bad. aderall doesn't do this, it just lets you stay in that seat longer to do more work, so its not cheating. its readily available, any shrink will prescribe it if you know what to say and you could easily find someone who is selling it so quit whining. (btw i don't use it my roomate does so i am not partial toward either side )

 

[loveoforganic]

6 months is just over a semester. That's enough for any college student to claim symptoms.

And what is the "developmental level" that should be used as the standard? Should we use the developmental level of the brilliant college student that can handle 18 hours of 500+ level classes and still get a good night's sleep?

This has been a common problem with ADD diagnosis ever since the phrase was coined, and a reason why it is so heavily diagnosed. Anyone going through a moderately stressful period in their life will show these symptoms, and by DSM-IV standards, can easily be diagnosed.

That's what's humorous about this. Everyone is assuming that the vast majority of students are using these drugs illegally. I would bet dollars to donuts that I can find a prescription filled out to a lot of them...

http://www.turnertoys.com/ADHD/APA_diagCriteria.htm

They do have a baseline established. I'm sure there is a more specific/articulate description of the baseline, but I think "The adolescent is easily distracted from tasks he or she does not desire to perform" could easily include something like studying.

 

[Compass]

I think that was the OP, wasn't it?

Bloddy, those links look completely different. They lied to me!

 

[halekulani]

not cheating
drug abuse? yes

 

[randombetch]

Apparently you missed the point of my post...legality or potential for abuse is not the argument; therefore, any claims as such are irrelevant to the actual question at hand.

I'll break it down for you so you can see the non-sequitur.

"Taking Adderrall without a prescription is illegal/has the potential for abuse; therefore, taking it is as so is cheating."

How is that a non-sequitur when the definition of cheating is doing something against the rules to gain an unfair advantage?

Taken from dictionary.com:
5. to violate rules or regulations: He cheats at cards. 6. to take an examination or test in a dishonest way, as by improper access to answers.

There are 2 conditions that, when met, imply cheating in my opinion:
1) Violates rules
2) Gives an advantage that others who follow the rules don't have

Taking adderall meets both conditions. Therefore, taking adderall is cheating.

End of discussion (not really, but it should be).

 

[circulus vitios]

It's cheating just like using steroids. It doesn't give you the answers, but it makes it easier to retain the answers - just like steroids make it easier to retain muscle.

 

[greatnt249]

How is that a non-sequitur when the definition of cheating is doing something against the rules to gain an unfair advantage?

Taken from dictionary.com:
5. to violate rules or regulations: He cheats at cards. 6. to take an examination or test in a dishonest way, as by improper access to answers.

There are 2 conditions that, when met, imply cheating in my opinion:
1) Violates rules
2) Gives an advantage that others who follow the rules don't have

Taking adderall meets both conditions. Therefore, taking adderall is cheating.

End of discussion (not really, but it should be).

Nice try. Adderall is illegal because it has the potential for abuse, not because it can give an "unfair" advantage to "normal" people who abuse it.

If you still have to put the work in to achieve the desired results, then it isn't cheating.

 

[greatnt249]

It's cheating just like using steroids. It doesn't give you the answers, but it makes it easier to retain the answers - just like steroids make it easier to retain muscle.

So if I have a photographic memory, I'm a cheater then?

 

[circulus vitios]

So if I have a photographic memory, I'm a cheater then?

No. Why would you be?

 

[randombetch]

Nice try. Adderall is illegal because it has the potential for abuse, not because it can give an "unfair" advantage to "normal" people who abuse it.

If you still have to put the work in to achieve the desired results, then it isn't cheating.

WHAT?!?! Adderall TOTALLY gives the users an advantage!!!!

That's like saying steriod use isn't cheating because you still have to work out for them to work! Complete bulls***!

Something's an advantage if you would have scored lower without it.

Furthermore, what kind of crappy logic is "if you still have to put the work to achieve the desired results, then it isn't cheating" business? What makes that statement true? Cheating isn't defined by the amount of work someone puts into something. It's defined by breaking the rules to do better than you could have by following the rules.

 

[randombetch]

So if I have a photographic memory, I'm a cheater then?

Photographic memory obtained through pills which are illegal to take and most do not have access to, then obviously yes.

 

[azrael87]

The answer here is 100% no, it is definitely NOT cheating. However, my obligatory disclaimer: I am 100% against its use except for those who were justifiably diagnosed and prescribed. It's a silly crutch just like any tool and its biggest danger is turning the user into a helpless fool the moment it becomes unavailable (just like cell phones to some kids these days).

Tons of people I knew freshman year used adderol. I never did. None of them seemed to have any advantage over me. In fact, I felt overall less stressed than those who used it. All it does is increase focus. Let me present a few examples to put it in perspective:

My roommate on nothing: Studied throughout the day. Somewhat distracted by tv and music, took breaks to relax between chapters/writing of a page or 2, stopped to tell me the random corny jokes he thought of while doing work.

My roommate on adderol: Began studying around 9 pm. Studied nonstop all night. Didn't ever pull his eyes away from the book he studied from or the computer screen he typed the essay from unless I directly addressed him. The next day, slept like a log upon returning from class at around 4 pm.

My roommate on red bull/coffee: Began studying around 9 pm. Studied diligently through the night, but every couple of hours took a break to go for a walk or something so he could unwind a bit before continuing. Was tired the next day, but fine after a normal night's rest.

In the end he spent the same overall amount of time actually studying and the ease of the material was unchanged. The difference is how that time was organized and split up. He even stopped using it after that first time because he felt that while it served its purpose, it didn't help nearly enough to waste money on. Anyone with decent study habits can trump an adderol user. No real advantage given, let alone an unfair one.

One more story for the road:
Guy next door tries adderol for the first time: He takes the pill, then notices his laundry still needs to be folded and decides to take care of that before studying since he know he'll be focused on studying. I come back a couple hours later, everything it meticulously folded, including his socks, and he is basically making his room as neat as humanly possible. Basically since making things neat is what he was doing when it kicked in, making things neat is what he kept on doing.

That one's sort of anecdotal, but still a good example of how it can totally misfire, destroying the percieved "advantage" it's supposed to give.

 

[oaklandguy]

If the gatorade Michael Jordan was drinking wasn't available to other players because they didn't have a prescription- then yes, that would be cheating.

Adderall is available to everyone, did you listen to the article? Go to the dorms or the front of the Library...

Seriously though, my buddy's dad is a millionaire. Is he at an unfair advantage than me? Yes, his car is safer than mine, his house is bigger than mine, he has more room to study and a comfier desk to study on. This is not available to me because even though my parents are rich, they are not millionaires. Is my friend cheating? Can I go and steal a great desk? Would it be illegal, yes, would it make studying easier? yes. would it put me at an unfair advantage? yes. is it cheating? no.

thats a crappy example, but it works. if i pee in public, isn't that illegal? is it cheating? just cause adderall is illegal, doesn't make it cheating. and caffeine is a drug with bad side effects, if i take caffeine pills would it constitute cheating? if caffeine was illegal then would it be cheating? the answer is no.

when you're in elementary school, your taught that cheating is looking at your friend's test and copying the answers. you're not working for the answer. with adderall, not only are you working for the answers, you are risking your own health to be able to study harder and more efficiently for the answers. and adderall is for pansies, if you're not on foaclin you ain't studying hard enough 😛

Seriously though, it's not cheating. Some people are born with advantages.
OMG your dad is a doctor? He can help you with your homework!!! Is that cheating? Get over it.

 

[chman]

The answer here is 100% no, it is definitely NOT cheating. However, my obligatory disclaimer: I am 100% against its use except for those who were justifiably diagnosed and prescribed. It's a silly crutch just like any tool and its biggest danger is turning the user into a helpless fool the moment it becomes unavailable (just like cell phones to some kids these days).

Tons of people I knew freshman year used adderol. I never did. None of them seemed to have any advantage over me. In fact, I felt overall less stressed than those who used it. All it does is increase focus. Let me present a few examples to put it in perspective:

My roommate on nothing: Studied throughout the day. Somewhat distracted by tv and music, took breaks to relax between chapters/writing of a page or 2, stopped to tell me the random corny jokes he thought of while doing work.

My roommate on adderol: Began studying around 9 pm. Studied nonstop all night. Didn't ever pull his eyes away from the book he studied from or the computer screen he typed the essay from unless I directly addressed him. The next day, slept like a log upon returning from class at around 4 pm.

My roommate on red bull/coffee: Began studying around 9 pm. Studied diligently through the night, but every couple of hours took a break to go for a walk or something so he could unwind a bit before continuing. Was tired the next day, but fine after a normal night's rest.

In the end he spent the same overall amount of time actually studying and the ease of the material was unchanged. The difference is how that time was organized and split up. He even stopped using it after that first time because he felt that while it served its purpose, it didn't help nearly enough to waste money on. Anyone with decent study habits can trump an adderol user. No real advantage given, let alone an unfair one.

One more story for the road:
Guy next door tries adderol for the first time: He takes the pill, then notices his laundry still needs to be folded and decides to take care of that before studying since he know he'll be focused on studying. I come back a couple hours later, everything it meticulously folded, including his socks, and he is basically making his room as neat as humanly possible. Basically since making things neat is what he was doing when it kicked in, making things neat is what he kept on doing.

That one's sort of anecdotal, but still a good example of how it can totally misfire, destroying the percieved "advantage" it's supposed to give.

Personally I think that this makes a stronger case for the cheating argument. Your one friends was able to study throughout the night because of an "advantage," while the other had to take multiple breaks. Your other friend was just a weirdo for using his "advantage" to fold clothes. But I bet he folded clothes better than someone who did not take it.

 

[oaklandguy]

Personally I think that this makes a stronger case for the cheating argument. Your one friends was able to study throughout the night because of an "advantage," while the other had to take multiple breaks. Your other friend was just a weirdo for using his "advantage" to fold clothes. But I bet he folded clothes better than someone who did not take it.

He could have folded the clothing just as meticulously if he weren't on adderall if that is what he intended to do. The adderall didn't turn him into a better clothing folder. It just forced him to focus on it.

If you give someone mentally incompetent adderall, they're not going to get an A on an orgo test.

 

[chman]

He could have folded the clothing just as meticulously if he weren't on adderall if that is what he intended to do. The adderall didn't turn him into a better clothing folder. It just forced him to focus on it.

If you give someone mentally incompetent adderall, they're not going to get an A on an orgo test.

That's not the point though. There are varying levels of intelligence regardless of whether adderal is being used or not. For the sake of argument we should probably assume we are talking about two equally matched people as far as IQ goes.

 

[oaklandguy]

If 2 people with the same intelligence were to take the same test they should both get the same grade. Whether one takes adderall or not, if one studies 24 hours, and one studies enough to master the material, lets say, 8 hours. It should result in the same grade. If you master the material, you master the material. I've used adderall before, and it's just not for me because I stay up all night studying either way. I know people who take adderall in my classes, who don't beat me on tests. Studying harder doesn't always lead to better test results. It's not a completely unfair advantage.

 

[randombetch]

Is my friend cheating? Can I go and steal a great desk? Would it be illegal, yes, would it make studying easier? yes. would it put me at an unfair advantage? yes. is it cheating? no.

thats a crappy example, but it works. if i pee in public, isn't that illegal? is it cheating? just cause adderall is illegal, doesn't make it cheating. and caffeine is a drug with bad side effects, if i take caffeine pills would it constitute cheating? if caffeine was illegal then would it be cheating? the answer is no.

when you're in elementary school, your taught that cheating is looking at your friend's test and copying the answers. you're not working for the answer. with adderall, not only are you working for the answers, you are risking your own health to be able to study harder and more efficiently for the answers. and adderall is for pansies, if you're not on foaclin you ain't studying hard enough 😛

Seriously though, it's not cheating. Some people are born with advantages.
OMG your dad is a doctor? He can help you with your homework!!! Is that cheating? Get over it.

Wow such a thorough lack of logic, I'm not sure where to begin.

1. If peeing in public would make your exam scores higher than they would be without peeing in public, then peeing in public is cheating.
2. If caffeine were illegal, it would be cheating to use them to aid studying.
3. Whether or not you're working for the answer is irrelevant because it has nothing to do with cheating. Cheating itself is work. If your friend agreed to give you answers for running a marathon, and you go run a marathon, then you'd be doing way more work than the people not cheating. Makes no difference at all.

 

[randombetch]

If 2 people with the same intelligence were to take the same test they should both get the same grade.

Lol wut? So studying has no affect on grades?

Whether one takes adderall or not, if one studies 24 hours, and one studies enough to master the material, lets say, 8 hours. It should result in the same grade.

I don't think you understand how tests, memory, nor learning work.

I've used adderall before, and it's just not for me because I stay up all night studying either way. I know people who take adderall in my classes, who don't beat me on tests.

Therefore it's not cheating?

It's not a completely unfair advantage.

So you admit that it's an unfair advantage that is illegal?

 

[oaklandguy]

Wow such a thorough lack of logic, I'm not sure where to begin.

1. If peeing in public would make your exam scores higher than they would be without peeing in public, then peeing in public is cheating.
2. If caffeine were illegal, it would be cheating to use them to aid studying.
3. Whether or not you're working for the answer is irrelevant because it has nothing to do with cheating. Cheating itself is work. If your friend agreed to give you answers for running a marathon, and you go run a marathon, then you'd be doing way more work than the people not cheating. Makes no difference at all.

Then studying is cheating?

Running a marathon is not working for/towards the answers. You are still learning the concepts and doing everything the people who study w/o adderall are doing. You're just doing it more efficiently. It's like running a marathon with better form. So if I hire a coach to teach me better form running, and I pay him not to coach anyone else... is that cheating??

I think you may be lacking some logic. And failing to understand the points I am making.

 

[teenmachinery1]

Adderall is available to everyone, did you listen to the article? Go to the dorms or the front of the Library...

Seriously though, my buddy's dad is a millionaire. Is he at an unfair advantage than me? Yes, his car is safer than mine, his house is bigger than mine, he has more room to study and a comfier desk to study on. This is not available to me because even though my parents are rich, they are not millionaires. Is my friend cheating? Can I go and steal a great desk? Would it be illegal, yes, would it make studying easier? yes. would it put me at an unfair advantage? yes. is it cheating? no.

thats a crappy example, but it works. if i pee in public, isn't that illegal? is it cheating? just cause adderall is illegal, doesn't make it cheating. and caffeine is a drug with bad side effects, if i take caffeine pills would it constitute cheating? if caffeine was illegal then would it be cheating? the answer is no.

when you're in elementary school, your taught that cheating is looking at your friend's test and copying the answers. you're not working for the answer. with adderall, not only are you working for the answers, you are risking your own health to be able to study harder and more efficiently for the answers. and adderall is for pansies, if you're not on foaclin you ain't studying hard enough 😛

Seriously though, it's not cheating. Some people are born with advantages.
OMG your dad is a doctor? He can help you with your homework!!! Is that cheating? Get over it.

No, it's not. A couple of my friends wanted amphetamines for exams and stuff but couldn't get it.

Why are people having such trouble with the steroids analogy?

Also, sorry if this has been mentioned before, but..

amphetamines are BANNED BY PROFESSIONAL SPORTS ORGANIZATIONS INCLUDING THE NFL AND INTERNATIONAL ORGANIZATIONS LIKE THE FRIGGIN OLYMPICS!!

Can anyone guess why?

No seriously, can anyone think of why this could be?

👎

 

[oaklandguy]

Lol wut? So studying has no affect on grades?



I don't think you understand how tests, memory, nor learning work.



Therefore it's not cheating?



So you admit that it's an unfair advantage that is illegal?

It's not illegal because it is an unfair advantage. It's not banned from Universities. It's illegal because it is a pharmaceutical drug that requires a prescription (which I have by the way, and have had since I was very young). Does it make me more focused? YES! YES IT DOES! So does red bull! Do I have to take red bull or adderall to get an A? No. Does it help? YES! Just because it helps shouldn't make it cheating. Just because it is illegal because you can become an addict doesn't make it cheating. Cheating is not studying, and instead of studying, staring at the person's test who is sitting in front of yours, and writing the same answers as them. Cheating is paying someone to go into class and take a test for you, or write an essay. Cheating is doing something to avoid the work and rig it so that you get a better grade than you deserved/worked for.

 

[oaklandguy]

No, it's not. A couple of my friends wanted amphetamines for exams and stuff but couldn't get it.

👎

I was being sarcastic.

But realistically, if you wanted it bad enough you can get it. If that takes faking adhd in a doctors office, or giving a doctor sexual favors, you can get it.

 

[teenmachinery1]

No, it's not. A couple of my friends wanted amphetamines for exams and stuff but couldn't get it.

Why are people having such trouble with the steroids analogy?

Also, sorry if this has been mentioned before, but..

amphetamines are BANNED BY PROFESSIONAL SPORTS ORGANIZATIONS INCLUDING THE NFL AND INTERNATIONAL ORGANIZATIONS LIKE THE FRIGGIN OLYMPICS!!

Can anyone guess why?

No seriously, can anyone think of why this could be?

👎

Hint: Because it constitutes cheating.

👍

 

[teenmachinery1]

It's not illegal because it is an unfair advantage. It's not banned from Universities. It's illegal because it is a pharmaceutical drug that requires a prescription (which I have by the way, and have had since I was very young). Does it make me more focused? YES! YES IT DOES! So does red bull! Do I have to take red bull or adderall to get an A? No. Does it help? YES! Just because it helps shouldn't make it cheating. Just because it is illegal because you can become an addict doesn't make it cheating. Cheating is not studying, and instead of studying, staring at the person's test who is sitting in front of yours, and writing the same answers as them. Cheating is paying someone to go into class and take a test for you, or write an essay. Cheating is doing something to avoid the work and rig it so that you get a better grade than you deserved/worked for.

Comparing amphetamines to redbull is bulls***. It's like comparing a warm cup of milk to quaaludes or ruffies.

 

[randombetch]

Then studying is cheating?

Running a marathon is not working for/towards the answers. You are still learning the concepts and doing everything the people who study w/o adderall are doing. You're just doing it more efficiently. It's like running a marathon with better form. So if I hire a coach to teach me better form running, and I pay him not to coach anyone else... is that cheating??

I think you may be lacking some logic. And failing to understand the points I am making.

No because studying isn't illegal...

I think you're forgetting one of the two conditions for cheating in each example. Cheating = against the rules + makes you score higher than you would have by following the rules.

If hiring the coach is against the rules, obviously that's cheating.

And the lack of logic is on your side, sorry. =/

 

[randombetch]

It's not illegal because it is an unfair advantage. It's not banned from Universities. It's illegal because it is a pharmaceutical drug that requires a prescription (which I have by the way, and have had since I was very young). Does it make me more focused? YES! YES IT DOES! So does red bull! Do I have to take red bull or adderall to get an A? No. Does it help? YES! Just because it helps shouldn't make it cheating. Just because it is illegal because you can become an addict doesn't make it cheating. Cheating is not studying, and instead of studying, staring at the person's test who is sitting in front of yours, and writing the same answers as them. Cheating is paying someone to go into class and take a test for you, or write an essay. Cheating is doing something to avoid the work and rig it so that you get a better grade than you deserved/worked for.

1. I never said it's illegal because it's an unfair advantage. It's still illegal though.
2. Is murder against University policy? No, because it's freaking obviously that the law is supposed to be followed whether or not you're at school.
3. Cheating is not "not studying." Studying your ass off and then downloading the answers is cheating.

 

[randombetch]

I was being sarcastic.

But realistically, if you wanted it bad enough you can get it. If that takes faking adhd in a doctors office, or giving a doctor sexual favors, you can get it.

Same goes for answer keys.

 

[teenmachinery1]

If you guys think red bull or caffeine is the equivalent to amphetamines, can you say "I" so we know who to judge.

It makes me feel better knowing you guys are the competition.

🙂

 

[oaklandguy]

Comparing amphetamines to redbull is bulls***. It's like comparing a warm cup of milk to quaaludes or ruffies.

Amphetamines and Caffeine? Do I need to find images of the molecules to show you similarity? And really their effects aren't extremely different. The extent and lasting time differ, and the effect is slightly different, but both deal with focus and energy. So it's not that horrible of a comparison.

 

[randombetch]

Amphetamines and Caffeine? Do I need to find images of the molecules to show you similarity? And really their effects aren't extremely different. The extent and lasting time differ, and the effect is slightly different, but both deal with focus and energy. So it's not that horrible of a comparison.

One's illegal, one's not.

Your analogy can be applied to steroids and protein shakes.


Btw, anyone want to give an intelligent reason as to why adderall is not cheating while steroids is cheating? What exactly is the difference between someone who uses adderall to retain more information and someone who uses steroids to retain more muscle which makes steroids = cheating while adderall = not cheating? They're both against the rules, they're both performance enhancer drugs detrimental to health (anyone who thinks amphetamines aren't detrimental to health need to do more research, I suggest www.pubmed.gov).

 

[oaklandguy]

One's illegal, one's not.

Your analogy can be applied to steroids and protein shakes.


Btw, anyone want to give an intelligent reason as to why adderall is not cheating while steroids is cheating? What exactly is the difference between someone who uses adderall to retain more information and someone who uses steroids to retain more muscle which makes steroids = cheating while adderall = not cheating? They're both against the rules, they're both performance enhancer drugs detrimental to health (anyone who thinks amphetamines aren't detrimental to health need to do more research, I suggest www.pubmed.gov).

Steroids aren't illegal because they make you stronger...

Caffeine could easily be made illegal, it makes you addicted and helps your performance. How is using caffeine for sports any different than using steroids? You are using a performance enhancing substance?

Paul Konerko took steroids and Barry Bonds took steroids, who had the better career? And if you take steroids without working out, you do not become a better athlete.

I say you try an experiment. Give one of your friends adderall, and have them not study. See if they do well on the exam. They won't. Did they cheat?

 

[bannie22]

So is using prescription pills you do not have a prescription for.

glad you agree 👍


but using addenol, is not cheating
all it does is increase energy. (and many food sources do the same)


students should be apprehended NOT because they cheated, but because it is illegal to use addenol without an appropriate prescription.

get my point?

 

[randombetch]

Steroids aren't illegal because they make you stronger...

Caffeine could easily be made illegal, it makes you addicted and helps your performance. How is using caffeine for sports any different than using steroids? You are using a performance enhancing substance?

Paul Konerko took steroids and Barry Bonds took steroids, who had the better career? And if you take steroids without working out, you do not become a better athlete.

I say you try an experiment. Give one of your friends adderall, and have them not study. See if they do well on the exam. They won't. Did they cheat?

What difference does it make why steroids are illegal?

And you have NO idea how the American political system works if you think caffeine could be easily made illegal. If it were illegal, then using caffeine for sports would be cheating without a doubt.

What's with your Konerko and Bonds example? Are you trying to say steroid use isn't cheating? Lol?

 

[randombetch]

glad you agree 👍


but using addenol, is not cheating
all it does is increase energy. (and many food sources do the same)


students should be apprehended NOT because they cheated, but because it is illegal to use addenol without an appropriate prescription.

get my point?

Breaking the rules to increase test scores is cheating.

Using substances without a prescription is breaking the rules. If that substance also enhances ability, then that's cheating.

 

[oaklandguy]

What difference does it make why steroids are illegal?

And you have NO idea how the American political system works if you think caffeine could be easily made illegal. If it were illegal, then using caffeine for sports would be cheating without a doubt.

What's with your Konerko and Bonds example? Are you trying to say steroid use isn't cheating? Lol?

Well taking steroids is cheating. But our bodies make steroids don't they? So our bodies make an illegal substance? Now, that being said, if my body makes more steroids and uses more steroids than yours, am I at an advantage over you? Yes. Am I cheating because I am USING an illegal substance to my advantage?

 

[Beren]

Amphetamines and Caffeine? Do I need to find images of the molecules to show you similarity? And really their effects aren't extremely different. The extent and lasting time differ, and the effect is slightly different, but both deal with focus and energy. So it's not that horrible of a comparison.

As a biologist, you should know better. Even with structural similarities, a few substituents can make a huge difference.

Remember, ppl got caffeine fixes, in moderate quantities, from natural sources like tea and coffee. That may be the practical reason it's not illegal. Even caffeine in soda isn't inordinate.

Adderol, isn't even natural. It has to be synthesized. It can also cause major addiction and health problems. All the more reason it is more tightly regulated than caffeine.

Bottom-line: comparing the two is weak

 

[oaklandguy]

As a biologist, you should know better. Even with structural similarities, a few substituents can make a huge difference.

Remember, ppl got caffeine fixes, in moderate quantities, from natural sources like tea and coffee. That may be the practical reason it's not illegal. Even caffeine in soda isn't inordinate; some energy drinks do get in legal trouble for causing health complications. Thus, these drinks have trouble becoming legalized.

Adderol, isn't even natural. It has to be synthesized. It can also cause major addiction and health problems. All the more reason it is more tightly regulated than caffeine.

Bottom-line: comparing the two is weak

Cocaine is natural. Marijuana is natural. Both are illegal. Cigarettes, even though tobacco is natural, are a lot unhealthier than adderall and cause way more deaths. Yet they are completely legal. Did I mention tobacco is addictive? And cigarettes have many unnatural chemicals in them as well.

Steroids effects compared to protein shakes effects have astronomical differences.

Caffeine's affect on the body, compared to adderall's affect's on the body are pretty similar. If you don't believe me take them. Adderall is definitely a lot stronger, but you can feel the affects of both of them.

Caffeine in coffee = natural.
Caffeine in Mountain Dew/Red Bull = unnatural and synthesized.
Caffeine can cause major health problems and addiction.

Your point is not valid.

 

[randombetch]

Well taking steroids is cheating. But our bodies make steroids don't they? So our bodies make an illegal substance? Now, that being said, if my body makes more steroids and uses more steroids than yours, am I at an advantage over you? Yes. Am I cheating because I am USING an illegal substance to my advantage?

There is no law against your body producing steroids naturally in sports.

Your analogies are soooo horrible. Sorry dude.

 

[Beren]

Cocaine is natural. Marijuana is natural. Both are illegal. Cigarettes, even though tobacco is natural, are a lot unhealthier than adderall and cause way more deaths. Yet they are completely legal. Did I mention tobacco is addictive? And cigarettes have many unnatural chemicals in them as well.

Steroids effects compared to protein shakes effects have astronomical differences.

Caffeine's affect on the body, compared to adderall's affect's on the body are pretty similar. If you don't believe me take them. Adderall is definitely a lot stronger, but you can feel the affects of both of them.

Caffeine in coffee = natural.
Caffeine in Mountain Dew/Red Bull = unnatural and synthesized.
Caffeine can cause major health problems and addiction.

Your point is not valid.

Sigh, are you really going to throw the kitchen sink at me? Trying to drag every major drug and making me justify each one's legal status into does not going to validate your point. That's just plain sophistry

Things aren't fair in the world of drugs. But if drugs like morphine, cocaine, marajuana are regulated, then adderall is certainly game. If I had it my way, yes, then cigarettes should be banned too.

Again, caffeine in drinks is "synthesized", but it is a still naturally occurring compound. It's like the iodized salt you eat. Just because we didn't extract it by boiling some plants shouldn't make it illegal, especially considering it is naturally occurring. Adderall, on the other hand, is completely synthetic from its origin.