Does this constitute cheating?

[Beren]

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Uh huh...now who's descending into the realm of relativism you so disdain? The fact that you had to pull out a full dictionary definition shows that using the term "lawful" in the context you wished to use it in is not its most common definition. This also ignores the fact that the context in which you were using the term lawful changed between hand-scribbling and taking a prescription drug without a prescription.

Law in preventing unregulated use of adderall: prescribed by the FDA
Law in preventing scribbling notes on your hand for reading during an exam: prescribed by the professor teaching the class and the university

Clear enough?

No, I want you to define what exactly the advantage is to be gained from taking Adderall, since you claim doing so is a form of cheating.

Your friend Tinman already posted literature a few pages back describing the improvement in performing certain functions. Do you believe it?

 

[HanginInThere]

I never said there was nothing wrong with it; I said it wasn't cheating.

Fair enough. Are you going to argue that point in your interview?

Everyone knows that's a silly situation, because it's obvious how polarized the issue is. There's a fifty-fifty chance that the doctor could fall on the side that would like to see you in jail for using those drugs, not to mention ignore you for the rest of the interview. Nobody would risk that when there is a universally safe option.

🙂

I actually don't think it's silly. Interviewers will ask ethically challenging questions where the point isn't to be right, but to have intelligent, thought-out explanations of your position. If this is one of those cases, you should be able to discuss your opinions on the issue in a manner that demonstrates your reasoning.

My point is that if you can't claim this isn't cheating without worrying about blowing your interview, maybe admissions committees DO consider it to be cheating.

And on that note, I've got to duck out - time to stop procrastinating and get back to studying. I'll check back in on this thread later.

 

[dingyibvs]

If you ain't cheatin' you ain't tryin'

Works for the SEC, why not for med students too?

 

[greatnt249]

Law in preventing unregulated use of adderall: prescribed by the FDA
Law in preventing scribbling notes on your hand for reading during an exam: prescribed by the professor teaching the class and the university

Clear enough?

Refer to Tinman's argument about how breaking rules in one system does not necessarily mean you've broken rules in another.

Your friend Tinman already posted literature a few pages back describing the improvement in performing certain functions. Do you believe it?

If you still have to put the work in to get the grade, it isn't cheating. Taking Adderall does not mean I don't have to study. "But greatnt249, he'll be able to stay up longer and concentrate better than everyone else." Yeah, well so will the person tanked on caffeine. Neglecting the fact that unregulated use is illegal, what advantages does Adderall provide that I couldn't possibly get otherwise within legal means?

 

[Beren]

Refer to Tinman's argument about how breaking rules in one system does not necessarily mean you've broken rules in another.

Read my post how you should obey both systems. His example about gambling referred to being in a place where one set of rules no longer applies. If you want to go to med school in the caribbean, where the law is okay with adderall (hypothetically speaking), and everyone does so... go ahead.

If anything, the national law of not taking drugs without appropriate prescriptions should preempt any others.

If you still have to put the work in to get the grade, it isn't cheating. Taking Adderall does not mean I don't have to study. "But greatnt249, he'll be able to stay up longer and concentrate better than everyone else." Yeah, well so will the person tanked on caffeine. Neglecting the fact that unregulated use is illegal, what advantages does Adderall provide that I couldn't possibly get otherwise within legal means?

Just stick with caffeine then. Why even break a rule when you feel you can do the same within legal means.

I never said there was nothing wrong with it; I said it wasn't cheating.

so is it wrong? let me guess: No, because it's not cheating.

 

[greatnt249]

Fair enough. Are you going to argue that point in your interview?

I'm already beyond that stage, but sure, why not? It's not that hard to qualify a point with "I'd never do it myself, but..." And that's being completely honest; I would never take Adderall for the purpose of studying for a test because I don't see how there's any significant advantage to be gained over pulling an all-nighter chain smoking and chugging Red Bulls (spoken tongue-in-cheek, of course).

 

[greatnt249]

1. Just stick with caffeine then. Why even break a rule when you feel you can do the same within legal means.


2. so is it wrong? let me guess: No, because it's not cheating.

The first point you made is why I believe taking Adderall is stupid (not to mention deleterious aftereffects of improper use), not because I consider it cheating.

 

[Beren]

The first point you made is why I believe taking Adderall is stupid (not to mention deleterious aftereffects of improper use), not because I consider it cheating.

I don't care what you call it after 4 pages of changing the definition. It's unlawful to do adderall without a prescription... don't do it. You can do just as well by studying well.

So greatnt249, is it wrong?

 

[RogueUnicorn]

Neglecting the fact that unregulated use is illegal, what advantages does Adderall provide that I couldn't possibly get otherwise within legal means?

if that is the case, if there are truly no other advantages, why would kids do it? seems odd to me.

 

[greatnt249]

if that is the case, if there are truly no other advantages, why would kids do it? seems odd to me.

Kids do it to get high, as well. Otherwise, this is an argumentum ad populum.

 

[greatnt249]

I don't care what you call it after 4 pages of changing the definition. It's unlawful to do adderall without a prescription... don't do it. You can do just as well by studying well.

So greatnt249, is it wrong?

I refuse to let you back me into this "if it's wrong for one reason, then it's wrong for all reasons" absolutist, fallacy-ridden logic.

 

[Beren]

I refuse to let you back me into this "if it's wrong for one reason, then it's wrong for all reasons" absolutist, fallacy-ridden logic.

I am sure that would sit so well with an academic ethics committee if someone had to explain his unlawful use of adderall to them. Besides, you were the one who brought up that it's "wrongness" is distinct from "cheating". I am curious about your viewpoint on that, but didn't want to start a new thread.

 

[greatnt249]

I am sure that would sit so well with an academic ethics committee if someone had to explain his unlawful use of adderall to them.

🙄

Is that the best you can come up with? The student would be in front of the dean for having drugs on him, not for academic dishonesty.

This ignores the fact that the above statement I quoted has no actual bearing on the question at hand.

 

[Beren]

🙄

Is that the best you can come up with? The student would be in front of the dean for having drugs on him, not for academic dishonesty.

This ignores the fact that the above statement I quoted has no actual bearing on the question at hand.

I could imagine this:

Dean: I see that you have been using adderall.
Greatnt249: I only had it on me, besides there's nothing wrong with using it
Dean: Alright then. Off you go.

 

[greatnt249]

I could imagine this:

Dean: I see that you have been using adderall.
Greatnt249: I only had it on me, besides there's nothing wrong with using it
Dean: Alright then. Off you go.

Wow, you've really let your logic go. Not only is that not what I said, it doesn't add anything in terms of addressing the initial question.

Legality is irrelevant because it does not necessarily correlate with morality.

 

[chman]

I would also like to point out that caffeine does not help you concentrate after a certain point. At least that is what my doctor said. I am gonna go ahead and believe him. The whole comparing caffeine to redalin/adderal thing is getting old. If they were the same there would be no use in having a substance such as adderal because people would just use caffeine instead. Adderal is a much cleaner drug than caffeine. It is like comparing tylenol to oxicontin. They are both pain killers but one is much stronger than the other and is made up of different compounds.

 

[greatnt249]

I would also like to point out that caffeine does not help you concentrate after a certain point. At least that is what my doctor said. I am gonna go ahead and believe him. The whole comparing caffeine to redalin/adderal thing is getting old. If they were the same there would be no use in having a substance such as adderal because people would just use caffeine instead. Adderal is a much cleaner drug than caffeine. It is like comparing tylenol to oxicontin. They are both pain killers but one is much stronger than the other and is made up of different compounds.

Is taking ephedrine cheating?

 

[Beren]

Wow, you've really let your logic go. Not only is that not what I said, it doesn't add anything in terms of addressing the initial question.

Legality is irrelevant because it does not necessarily correlate with morality.

It's a joke, hence the smiley face. Lighten up dude, it doesn't matter after all that name calling. The people who do the best will still be the people who work the hardest.

 

[greatnt249]

It's a joke, hence the smiley face. Lighten up dude, it doesn't matter after all that name calling. The people who do the best will still be the people who work the hardest.

I agree wholeheartedly with the last sentence. While I don't consider it cheating, I find it more pathetic than anything that someone would resort to popping Adderall to "help" study for a test.

 

[chman]

Is taking ephedrine cheating?

Ephedrine is not a drug intended to improve concentration, it is intended to make cold medicine non-drowsy. Nice try though. Why is it that every time someone makes a valid point you pull some random thing out of thin air?


Next it will be, "what if the person is constipated and takes a laxative?" They will work better because they are no longer constipated. Does that make it cheating?

Instead maybe give me a valid explanation to why doctors don't just prescribe caffeine instead of adderal. Then maybe we can have a discussion. Now if you want to make a thread asking, "Is ephedrine a tool used to cheat." Then we can debate that, but for now lets stick with adderal/ridalin.

 

[azrael87]

I wish I had a scanner so I could draw and post a cartoon octopus giving himself 8 facepalms...although I guess I'd kind of want to do that with or without this thread. My next drawing subject is decided!

Anyway, do you really want to figure out if its cheating? Ask a professor. Go to a professor and present him the hypothetical situation: You have just taken a test and received a favorable score. You reveal to the professor that you had taken adderol during your study time for said test. Would the professor invalidate or reduce your test score?

This has come up in conversation with a couple of professors for me and the consensus there was that it wouldn't affect the grades. One said he would strongly advise the student to discontinue use, however. The other said he would threaten to report their illegal possession if they continued use, but again the grades would remain.

My professors aren't all professors, so I encourage you to ask for yourselves. If you're on at all good relations with them, bringing up a thought provoking hypothetical situation shouldn't be a problem.

As for what I'd say on an interview, I would say EXACTLY what I, TinMan, great, and many others have said. It would go something like "I don't support the use of adderol for those who don't have ADD/ADHD. I have advised and would continue to advise those who use it to simply improve their study habits in lieu of taking the pill. However, I don't think it constitutes cheating under current definitions and as such shouldn't be punished as cheating. However, possession without a prescription is illegal and it should be reported. If a student who used it for a test was prosecuted for such possession and somehow remained in the school, I don't think his grades should be altered."

When a med school interviewer asks you about a moral situation, they aren't expecting you to align with their opinion. They want you analyze the situation and come up with your own opinion so long as that opinion doesn't involve breaking state law, federal law, or regulations for medical licensure. If your opinion doesn't violate said government laws or licensure regulations, it is still considered a good answer so long as you have reason behind it. The point of such questions is to ensure you don't freeze up when confronted with controversial circumstances.

 

[greatnt249]

Ephedrine is not a drug intended to improve concentration, it is intended to make cold medicine non-drowsy. Nice try though. Why is it that every time someone makes a valid point you pull some random thing out of thin air?

Because ephedrine is not limited to the properties you ascribe it. If you look at the chemical compositions of both ephedrine and Adderall, you will notice striking similarities.

The difference is, one is legal OTC and one is regulated by law.

Instead maybe give me a valid explanation to why doctors don't just prescribe caffeine instead of adderal. Then maybe we can have a discussion. Now if you want to make a thread asking, "Is ephedrine a tool used to cheat." Then we can debate that, but for now lets stick with adderal/ridalin.

Why doctors prescribe Adderall over caffeine is irrelevant to the discussion of whether taking it without a prescription is cheating. The overall point I'm trying to make is that it's fallacious to make the claim that "since cheating is illegal, then doing anything illegal must be cheating."

Next time you accuse me of "pulling something random out of thin air," you should make sure that's what I've actually done.

 

[chman]

Because ephedrine is not limited to the properties you ascribe it. If you look at the chemical compositions of both ephedrine and Adderall, you will notice striking similarities.

The difference is, one is legal OTC and one is regulated by law.



Why doctors prescribe Adderall over caffeine is irrelevant to the discussion of whether taking it without a prescription is cheating.

Next time you accuse me of "pulling something random out of thin air," you should make sure that's what I've actually done.

You are the one who keeps making the comparison. So are you saying that your comparison is irrelevant? If so, I would have to agree.

EDIT: So what else is ephedrine used for ? I really don't know.

 

[greatnt249]

You are the one who keeps making the comparison. So are you saying that your comparison is irrelevant? If so, I would have to agree.

What comparison are you even talking about? A lot of comparisons have been made throughout the entire thread.

 

[chman]

What comparison are you even talking about? A lot of comparisons have been made throughout the entire thread.

The multiple comparisons that you have made to adderal and caffeine. You just said that my saying, "doctors would just prescribe caffeine if it was the same, " was an irrelevant statement and that I should not make that comparison. When you have made that comparison multiple times.

 

[greatnt249]

The multiple comparisons that you have made to adderal and caffeine. You just said that my saying, "doctors would just prescribe caffeine if it was the same, " was an irrelevant statement and that I should not make that comparison. When you have made that comparison multiple times.

I see; if that's the case, then I will concede that point. This thread has gone on so long that I think we need a reminder of what the arguments are.

1. Unprescribed Adderall use is cheating because it gives an unfair advantage (whatever that may be) to the user.

2. Since unprescribed use of Adderall is illegal, it is a form of cheating.

 

[randombetch]

I see; if that's the case, then I will concede that point. This thread has gone on so long that I think we need a reminder of what the arguments are.

1. Unprescribed Adderall use is cheating because it gives an unfair advantage (whatever that may be) to the user.

2. Since unprescribed use of Adderall is illegal, it is a form of cheating.

That's certainly not what I've been arguing.

Let me fix #2:

2. Since unprescribed use of Adderall is illegal and gives an advantage to the user, it is a form of cheating.

#2 is consistent with my definition of cheating (which I really think is the best definition of cheating): cheating is breaking rules that others follow in order to gain an advantage that others do not have.

Notice that the significance of the "rules" is that it restricts others from having that advantage, therefore the purpose of the rules is irrelevant.

HOWEVER, if you define cheating to be "a violation of rules that prevent cheating" (which is a circular definition if you ask me - defining cheating as being defined by specific rules against it), then Adderall is not cheating in the universities that do not have specific rules against drug abuse for exam purposes. My problem with this is that because abusing Adderall is already assumed to be a taboo, you don't know whether or not universities would have put Adderall in their list of rules had Adderall not been deemed a prescription only drug. If there were a drug that was an intense version of Adderall, let's say photographic memory for 48 hours in exchange for 5 years of your life, then the drug would be against federal law to use/sell (basically just like cocaine and etc.), and it wouldn't be against the "rules of cheating" to use it. But how could you possibly argue that using this isn't cheating when the only reason you're doing better on the tests is because you care less about your body and have low morals?

It's simple: if you believe my definition is better, then you should believe Adderall is a form of cheating. If you believe the other definition is better, then you don't believe Adderall is cheating.

Which definition is better? That's up to you.

 

[chman]

I see; if that's the case, then I will concede that point. This thread has gone on so long that I think we need a reminder of what the arguments are.

1. Unprescribed Adderall use is cheating because it gives an unfair advantage (whatever that may be) to the user.

2. Since unprescribed use of Adderall is illegal, it is a form of cheating.

The illegal thing is not why I think it is cheating. I did, however, , make a side note that a found it odd that future doc's had no problem taking it even though it is illegal for them to do so.

Frankly I don't have the energy for this anymore. I need to focus on my math because all I have is good old coffee to help me out.

I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.

 

[loveoforganic]

I think the argument of those in favor of the cheating argument is better summed up as -

Unprescribed Adderall use is cheating because it gives an advantage to the user that is not legally available to others.

For those considering it not cheating -

Unprescribed Adderall use is not cheating because there is no academic policy directly prohibiting its use. The legality of it is inconsequential.


At any rate, I emailed my university's provost of academic affairs to get his opinion on why the drug's use is not explicitly mentioned in our academic misconduct policy. Will post a summary here if he replies.

 

[randombetch]

Oh by the way, I looked into the honor code at my school. There's a section that prohibits any "unfair advantage." So I guess the question is whether or not you think Adderall is an unfair advantage.

This is basically a restatement of my definition: It's unfair because other people follow the law and don't use them (note that which rules are broken does not change the fact that it is unfair), and it's certainly an advantage (just like caffeine is an advantage) or else why would people use them?

http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/2008/04/14/20848/

 

[greatnt249]

HOWEVER, if you define cheating to be "a violation of rules that prevent cheating" (which is a circular definition if you ask me - defining cheating as being defined by specific rules against it)

How is this circular? It's only seems circular because you insist on using the word being defined in its definition.

I did, however, , make a side note that a found it odd that future doc's had no problem taking it even though it is illegal for them to do so.

I never said I didn't have a problem with people taking Adderall for its unintended use. I am allowed to be concerned for the safety and well-being of others while not considering their actions cheating.

 

[randombetch]

How is this circular? It's only seems circular because you insist on using the word being defined in its definition.



I never said I didn't have a problem with people taking Adderall for its unintended use. I am allowed to be concerned for the safety and well-being of others while not considering their actions cheating.

It's circular in the following way:

Cheat is breaking a set of anti-cheating rules.
Anti-cheating rules are rules that, when broken, constitute cheating.

Not completely sure if this is circular, but it sure seems like it to me.

 

[greatnt249]

Oh by the way, I looked into the honor code at my school. There's a section that prohibits any "unfair advantage." So I guess the question is whether or not you think Adderall is an unfair advantage.

This is basically a restatement of my definition: It's unfair because other people follow the law and don't use them (note that which rules are broken does not change the fact that it is unfair), and it's certainly an advantage (just like caffeine is an advantage) or else why would people use them?

http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/2008/04/14/20848/

A lot of things are unfair. Having access to my friend's really good notes is an advantage that the rest of the class doesn't have. Having an uncanny photographic memory is an advantage most other people don't have.

Better yet, if I have a prescription for Adderall (because the doctor had lax standards for prescribing their use) but don't really need the pills to function in class, is it cheating for me to consume them?

 

[greatnt249]

It's circular in the following way:

Cheat is breaking a set of anti-cheating rules.
Anti-cheating rules are rules that, when broken, constitute cheating.

Not completely sure if this is circular, but it sure seems like it to me.

Oh, come on now, you're still blatantly using the word being defined in its definition. That's like me saying theft is defined by breaking a set of anti-theft rules. Therefore, anti-theft rules are rules that, when broken, constitute theft.

You have yet to define exactly what those "anti-cheating" rules are, other than that by breaking said rules, it's cheating.

 

[oyoy]

If you do choose to do speed just know that you are not helping yourself. You are changing yourself for the worse. Way too many people don't fully grasp the concepts of drug addiction because they've never really talked with people who actually do have a problem. Once you see these people you will realize that there is no way anything good can happen to you as a person from abusing a substance like speed. The only difference is how badly you hurt yourself. The effect is always a negative one, never neutral or positive. Please just take this at face value. I've seen what happens to people when they start using it to get the desired emotions. The changes happen ridiculously quickly and if you don't have someone watching you, telling you that you're about to go off the deep end, then you very well might make it really bad for yourself. Make the changes you want from within yourself - that is the only way to truly change who you are and the world around you.

To put it back into the situation, it is cheating because you are not using your own body to obtain the desired results you are using a method that destroys individuals and you are creating an environment that compels others to destroy themselves. When you do take speed, you are destroying not just yourself but you're also forcing others to do destroy themselves with you. Its unfair to those who actually value themselves as human beings.

 

[greatnt249]

If you do choose to do speed just know that you are not helping yourself. You are changing yourself for the worse. Way too many people don't fully grasp the concepts of drug addiction because they've never really talked with people who actually do have a problem. Once you see these people you will realize that there is no way anything good can happen to you as a person from abusing a substance like speed. The only difference is how badly you hurt yourself. The effect is always a negative one, never neutral or positive. Please just take this at face value. I've seen what happens to people when they start using it to get the desired emotions. The changes happen ridiculously quickly and if you don't have someone watching you, telling you that you're about to go off the deep end, then you very well might make it really bad for yourself. Make the changes you want from within yourself - that is the only way to truly change who you are and the world around you.

To put it back into the situation, it is cheating because you are not using your own body to obtain the desired results you are using a method that destroys individuals and you are creating an environment that compels others to destroy themselves. When you do take speed, you are destroying not just yourself but you're also forcing others to do destroy themselves with you. Its unfair to those who actually value themselves as human beings.

Quite the slippery slope full of generalizations you've illustrated there.

 

[Beren]

Oh, come on now, you're still blatantly using the word being defined in its definition. That's like me saying theft is defined by breaking a set of anti-theft rules. Therefore, anti-theft rules are rules that, when broken, constitute theft.

You have yet to define exactly what those "anti-cheating" rules are, other than that by breaking said rules, it's cheating.

That's what your definition was earlier in the thread (page 3 and 4). Yours and Tinman's perspective was that cheating only occurred if anti-cheating rules were being broken - it's not enough that FDA's regulations for the drug are broken. Because they aren't rules against cheating. Am I right?

Hold on, let me find that quote:

You haven't provided a set of rules put in place to discourage the intended practice we are discussing (cheating).

Cheating isn't just breaking ANY rules. It has to be breaking THE rule that says that if it is broken, you are cheating. There is no such rule against using Ritalin. There is just a rule that says that if you take Ritalin illegally, you are guilty of breaking the law designed to prevent you from getting high or selling it to other people who want to get high.

 

[greatnt249]

That's what your definition was earlier in the thread (page 3 and 4). Yours and Tinman's perspective was that cheating only occurred if anti-cheating rules were being broken - it's not enough that FDA's regulations for the drug are broken. Because they aren't rules against cheating. Am I right?

Hold on, let me find that quote:

Just because something is illegal does not mean it is cheating; cheating is but a specific violation that falls under all things "illegal." Show me where it says that taking Adderall constitutes academic dishonesty/cheating and I'll concede my case.

 

[teenmachinery1]

Amphetamines and Caffeine? Do I need to find images of the molecules to show you similarity? And really their effects aren't extremely different. The extent and lasting time differ, and the effect is slightly different, but both deal with focus and energy. So it's not that horrible of a comparison.

Alright premeds,

What have we learned so far in preparing for medical school that tells us this previous statement is completely bogus?

I can think of two huge ones but anyone else?

 

[greatnt249]

Alright premeds,

What have we learned so far in preparing for medical school that tells us this previous statement is completely bogus?

I can think of two huge ones but anyone else?

Caffeine isn't really close at all in structure compared to amphetamines, which is why I conceded the caffeine point.

 

[cardinal2010]

Am I the only one concerned about the lack of morality in this thread? With around 75% of pre-meds and med students saying that it is not cheating (albeit mostly after the "but i would never take it myself" wink wink disclaimer).

Cheating is something that gives you an advantage over someone else given otherwise identical sets of circumstances. If it in any way confers an advantage not given to others, then its cheating. The fact that people take shows that it confers an advantage.

To those saying that its widely available, thus everyone has access, thus its not cheating, what a BS argument. What this is saying is that IF you're willing to break the law, and IF you're willing to risk the cardio complications of high doses of prescription-strength amphetamines, then you have access. Saying you have to break the law to have access is saying that not everyone can (or should) have access.

To those saying that it doesn't matter because its still you putting in the work with studying, then I'd say you're the exact same as any steroid user in sports. Adderall allows one to focus and retain knowledge better, as anabolic steroids allow one to retain muscle better. In both cases, you're still "working out", but one allows it to have a greater effect. Now others have argued that this is not an appropriate metaphor, because one is an end (being a good baseball player) and one is a means (focusing to do better on a test to do something later in life). Well I say if you're drug abuse allows you to do better on a test, it gives you an unfair advantage in a class, then in a job/grad school application, and then later in life.

On another note, am I the only future doctor that has any respect for the power and effect of certain pharmaceuticals, and the necessity behind the prescription based regulatory system? The ability to prescribe is one of the most powerful given to a doctor, and seeing abuse like this (while far and away from the worst abuse I'll see I'm sure), still is disheartening.

To summarize. Adderall gives you an unfair advantage that is not available to others who don't want to break the law or dose on amphetamines. Rationalize it if you want, but you're still cheating if you use it to give yourself a boost.

 

[GrantN]

I couldn't see how it would be cheating, their just increasing their using a prescription medicine to stay up longer, basically.
They could just take high doses of caffeine really, sure it's illegal, but it's not cheating.

 

[Beren]

Just because something is illegal does not mean it is cheating; cheating is but a specific violation that falls under all things "illegal." Show me where it says that taking Adderall constitutes academic dishonesty/cheating and I'll concede my case.

I was just pointing out the fact that you were criticizing the same reasoning Tinman and you used earlier.

I'll stand by cheating = unfair and illegal (both are necessary to be sufficient). But I'd rather not waste the time retracking those last two pages.

Show me university policy that clearly says Adderall is not cheating because isn't necessarily both illegal and unfair. I will concede my case then. 😛

 

[Beren]

I couldn't see how it would be cheating, their just increasing their using a prescription medicine to stay up longer, basically.
They could just take high doses of caffeine really, sure it's illegal, but it's not cheating.

It is definitely illegal. But it is also unfair, to those who do not want to break the law. Everyone can buy caffeine without breaking the law. And yes, there are even athletic competitions that have called into question whether caffeine overdose is moral before a sports competition.

 

[teenmachinery1]

Drink a Red Bull. Does the same thing as a 10mg dose of Ritalin.

Everyone can ignore tin man now. He's excused himself from reality.

👍

 

[greatnt249]

Am I the only one concerned about the lack of morality in this thread? With around 75% of pre-meds and med students saying that it is not cheating (albeit mostly after the "but i would never take it myself" wink wink disclaimer).

Cheating is something that gives you an advantage over someone else given otherwise identical sets of circumstances. If it in any way confers an advantage not given to others, then its cheating. The fact that people take shows that it confers an advantage.

To those saying that its widely available, thus everyone has access, thus its not cheating, what a BS argument. What this is saying is that IF you're willing to break the law, and IF you're willing to risk the cardio complications of high doses of prescription-strength amphetamines, then you have access. Saying you have to break the law to have access is saying that not everyone can (or should) have access.

To those saying that it doesn't matter because its still you putting in the work with studying, then I'd say you're the exact same as any steroid user in sports. Adderall allows one to focus and retain knowledge better, as anabolic steroids allow one to retain muscle better. In both cases, you're still "working out", but one allows it to have a greater effect. Now others have argued that this is not an appropriate metaphor, because one is an end (being a good baseball player) and one is a means (focusing to do better on a test to do something later in life). Well I say if you're drug abuse allows you to do better on a test, it gives you an unfair advantage in a class, then in a job/grad school application, and then later in life.

On another note, am I the only future doctor that has any respect for the power and effect of certain pharmaceuticals, and the necessity behind the prescription based regulatory system? The ability to prescribe is one of the most powerful given to a doctor, and seeing abuse like this (while far and away from the worst abuse I'll see I'm sure), still is disheartening.

To summarize. Adderall gives you an unfair advantage that is not available to others who don't want to break the law or dose on amphetamines. Rationalize it if you want, but you're still cheating if you use it to give yourself a boost.

Seriously, get off your high horse. I've said NUMEROUS times that I don't condone Adderall's use outside of its prescribed setting, but that doesn't mean using it is cheating.

 

[teenmachinery1]

If you ain't cheatin' you ain't tryin'

Works for the SEC, why not for med students too?

I'm changing my life motto to this!

👍

 

[greatnt249]

It is definitely illegal. But it is also unfair, to those who do not want to break the law. Everyone can buy caffeine without breaking the law. And yes, there are even athletic competitions that have called into question whether caffeine overdose is moral before a sports competition.

Say it's legal to possess it without a prescription, but you still need a prescription to obtain it. Is it cheating then?

 

[greatnt249]

Show me university policy that clearly says Adderall is not cheating because isn't necessarily both illegal and unfair. I will concede my case then.

No, the burden of proof lies on you in this case to prove that such use constitutes cheating.

 

[Beren]

Seriously, get off your high horse. I've said NUMEROUS times that I don't condone Adderall's use outside of its prescribed setting, but that doesn't mean using it is cheating.

I know I asked you earlier about how wrong this was. If you were a doctor and some1 (without ADD) came and asked for adderall to study better, would you prescribe it knowing that no one else would find out?

No, the burden of proof lies on you in this case to prove that such use constitutes cheating.

No... I've offered the conditions that I qualify as cheating, whether you agree or not. You have not provided a workable definition or the necessary conditions. The best you got was that cheating was breaking laws preventing cheating.

It's easy for you to keep pushing it on me.