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Only advantage is additional osteopathic residency spots. OMM knowledge/skills are taken into consideration, albeit without consequence come selection time. No, don't bite.
DO's and Othropedics
- Thread starter desijigga
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In this email that you have been treating like the word of God on SDN, he forgot to mention the 30 orthopedic residencies open only to DOs.
By the way, the program director at the hospital I'm currently rotating at said he treats MD and DO applicants exactly the same. Just thought I'd throw that in there since anecdotal evidence seems to be the popular trend these days.
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Ooof!! I would have thought a bit more than 2!!! Glad I'm not interested in ortho!! (And am frightened if I actually were to become interested)
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The first sports medicine clinic in the US was started in Seattle in the 60's by a DO orthopod who did a DO residency. His son and a bunch of other DOs, along with some MD orthopods, work there now. The son did a DO ortho residency.
These guys are the team physicians for the Mariners. Ichiro comes by to say hello. ARod sends Xmas cards.
http://www.thesportsmedicineclinic.com/medicalstaff/
I'm of the opinion that a DO ortho residency is not a bad thing, for the above and other reasons (such as the relevance of OPP in ortho).
These guys are the team physicians for the Mariners. Ichiro comes by to say hello. ARod sends Xmas cards.
http://www.thesportsmedicineclinic.com/medicalstaff/
I'm of the opinion that a DO ortho residency is not a bad thing, for the above and other reasons (such as the relevance of OPP in ortho).
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The point of these posts and threads are to help readers as they go through a path that one has already experienced and to share those experiences so readers can use them to make their own decisions.
With that said.
Being a DO applicant for MD ortho is like trying to ice skate uphill and you have a snowball's chance in hell to match. I willl definitely admit that being a DO applicant does not give you ANY advantage over MD applicants for orthopedics, NONE. Not only do you have to have a better application (board scores, class rank, rotation grades, etc) than your MD counterparts, but you have to go above and beyond to dispell any negative connotations or reasons that an MD program has against DOs. Extra things such as rotating at a program to prove that you are legit, can perform in person, and can back up what you have on paper. Only then will you be considered in the match for an MD program.
In my last post I was trying to say that when a DO applicant applies for an MD ortho spot and the inevitable question is asked during their interview..."Why did you go to a DO school and why would you fit in this program?", an explanation of OMM, functional anatomy, and our professions inherent emphasis on MSK system can be a nice answer to tie ortho and osteopathic together. Not that you are more qualified than an MD student but why someone slightly non-traditional can still be as qualified as an MD applicant.
ScootDoc, I think you may have read into my statement a bit, or maybe I just didn't phrase it right. I wasn't making a blanket generalization about DO versus MD anatomy curriculum. I was only referring to MY osteopathic medical school where we had year round school, anatomy for one full year, while being in the top 3% of ALL medical schools for anatomy hours. Compare that with other MD or DO schools...that is quite an exposure to anatomy. I guess I should have said that students at my medical school had more of an exposure to anatomy than most other (MD and DO) medical schools. My friends that graduated from MD programs would often ask how I remembered my anatomy when they couldn't, and I attribute it to MY anatomy curriculum. I know if I had a 1 - 3 month blast of anatomy in my first couple of months of medical school (versus year round), that knowledge would have been fading away by the second year. But we all know that having more exposure doesn't mean much if you don't study/learn the material or devote your energy to it, yet the exposure is there and more than other schools...can't deny that.
For pre-DO and DO students, being a DO applicant definitely does not give you an advantage over MD applicants for MD ortho spots. It is an uphill battle. But, if you're fortunate to win that battle (some do every year) then there really isn't a difference and this ugly DO and MD thing truly does go away.
If you want to go into orthopedics, regardless of an MD or DO program, than going to a DO school is a great option. Know that there are DO ortho programs that only take DO applicants (I know this may seem unfair to MD students, but that's just how it is for the time being). And DO ortho programs often times take applicants based on an excellent sub-I versus an average application (board scores, class rank, etc). Also, you will only be competing against 40-100 DO applicants versus hundreds of MD applicants for MD spots. Don't really want to crunch the numbers but based on ratio of applicants to positions, I'd say odds of a DO student getting into a DO ortho program is a heck of a lot easier than an MD student getting into an MD program. In my experience, many DO programs rival any community MD program in terms of training, education, and fellowship placement. Plus, as a DO student you can also work hard and try for MD ortho as well (broadening your options).
If you want orthopedics than going to a DO school is not a bad option and won't limit you from becoming an osteopathically (is that a word) trained orthopedic surgeon who can get most any MD fellowships.
Feel free to pm me with any questions...and please, let's not spark wars here and read into posts...just trying to help others in their decisions.
With that said.
Being a DO applicant for MD ortho is like trying to ice skate uphill and you have a snowball's chance in hell to match. I willl definitely admit that being a DO applicant does not give you ANY advantage over MD applicants for orthopedics, NONE. Not only do you have to have a better application (board scores, class rank, rotation grades, etc) than your MD counterparts, but you have to go above and beyond to dispell any negative connotations or reasons that an MD program has against DOs. Extra things such as rotating at a program to prove that you are legit, can perform in person, and can back up what you have on paper. Only then will you be considered in the match for an MD program.
In my last post I was trying to say that when a DO applicant applies for an MD ortho spot and the inevitable question is asked during their interview..."Why did you go to a DO school and why would you fit in this program?", an explanation of OMM, functional anatomy, and our professions inherent emphasis on MSK system can be a nice answer to tie ortho and osteopathic together. Not that you are more qualified than an MD student but why someone slightly non-traditional can still be as qualified as an MD applicant.
ScootDoc, I think you may have read into my statement a bit, or maybe I just didn't phrase it right. I wasn't making a blanket generalization about DO versus MD anatomy curriculum. I was only referring to MY osteopathic medical school where we had year round school, anatomy for one full year, while being in the top 3% of ALL medical schools for anatomy hours. Compare that with other MD or DO schools...that is quite an exposure to anatomy. I guess I should have said that students at my medical school had more of an exposure to anatomy than most other (MD and DO) medical schools. My friends that graduated from MD programs would often ask how I remembered my anatomy when they couldn't, and I attribute it to MY anatomy curriculum. I know if I had a 1 - 3 month blast of anatomy in my first couple of months of medical school (versus year round), that knowledge would have been fading away by the second year. But we all know that having more exposure doesn't mean much if you don't study/learn the material or devote your energy to it, yet the exposure is there and more than other schools...can't deny that.
For pre-DO and DO students, being a DO applicant definitely does not give you an advantage over MD applicants for MD ortho spots. It is an uphill battle. But, if you're fortunate to win that battle (some do every year) then there really isn't a difference and this ugly DO and MD thing truly does go away.
If you want to go into orthopedics, regardless of an MD or DO program, than going to a DO school is a great option. Know that there are DO ortho programs that only take DO applicants (I know this may seem unfair to MD students, but that's just how it is for the time being). And DO ortho programs often times take applicants based on an excellent sub-I versus an average application (board scores, class rank, etc). Also, you will only be competing against 40-100 DO applicants versus hundreds of MD applicants for MD spots. Don't really want to crunch the numbers but based on ratio of applicants to positions, I'd say odds of a DO student getting into a DO ortho program is a heck of a lot easier than an MD student getting into an MD program. In my experience, many DO programs rival any community MD program in terms of training, education, and fellowship placement. Plus, as a DO student you can also work hard and try for MD ortho as well (broadening your options).
If you want orthopedics than going to a DO school is not a bad option and won't limit you from becoming an osteopathically (is that a word) trained orthopedic surgeon who can get most any MD fellowships.
Feel free to pm me with any questions...and please, let's not spark wars here and read into posts...just trying to help others in their decisions.
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to all the pre-medical students:
take it from me that the whole DO versus MD thing is a big deal only to pre-meds and some medical students. once you're in residency and in practice, the distinction doesn't even exist. just choose whichever school you think will prepare you the best to become a physician with a solid medical foundation and in line with what you want out of your medical career. don't let those people on here arguing that one or the other is better influence you.
take it from me that the whole DO versus MD thing is a big deal only to pre-meds and some medical students. once you're in residency and in practice, the distinction doesn't even exist. just choose whichever school you think will prepare you the best to become a physician with a solid medical foundation and in line with what you want out of your medical career. don't let those people on here arguing that one or the other is better influence you.
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i asked him specifically about MD residencies, thats why he didnt mention it.
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Why should we care if 0.003 % of ACGME Ortho residencies are filled by DOs? An even better statistic is that 100% of AOA Ortho residencies are filled by DOs. The hospital I'm doing core rotations at next year has 4 orthopaedic surgeons affiliated with it. 3 of the 4 are DOs and it's not a predominantly DO hospital. They all did AOA residencies. I can guarantee you that those guys don't give a **** about the statistics.
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that is so true...we are trying to cpare DO's trying to get in allopathic residencies...the fact is...if you are a DO and want to go into orthopedics..your best bet is to do an osteopathic residency...where no allopaths can make it.
When a patient breaks his or her leg and needs an open reduction procedure done right away.....he or she can care less if its an osteopathic orthpod or allopathic....he or she just wants his or her leg fixed before it heals
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Simmer down. Why do you assume s/he's addressing you? There are more than 60 posts in this thread, people DON'T read every post, and you don't have a patent on the opinion.
This is one of the stupider threads in a while.
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Wow. Okay. Are the AOA residencies that bad?? It's hard to believe. I mean, I know that there has been noted criticism of program quality, lack of research, and undesirable location, but my mind reels at the thought that they all suck so much that we all need to jump ship and work in ACGME programs. If AOA residencies are really that poor, then the AOA needs to stop building new schools and focus their efforts on improving osteopathic graduate medical education, or getting more that are dual-accredited. I'm tired of the perception that our programs are second-fiddle to the allopathic ones. I've seen the surveys that suggest that this perception is prevalent in our own community and I know that a huge percentage of graduates choose ACGME programs.
If our residencies really lack in quality and nobody wants to fix them, and with more and more people jumping ship to ACGME, them perhaps it's just a matter of time before our profession is lost to merger. Maybe that's the best move, sooner than later. I know this is a bleak outlook, but I'm feeling a sense of unease from all this recent discussion. 🙁
If our residencies really lack in quality and nobody wants to fix them, and with more and more people jumping ship to ACGME, them perhaps it's just a matter of time before our profession is lost to merger. Maybe that's the best move, sooner than later. I know this is a bleak outlook, but I'm feeling a sense of unease from all this recent discussion. 🙁
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ScootDoc,
You really need to chill out man....you are taking this thread as if every post is meant to insult you.....simmer...take a chill pill...take some xanax...lorazepam.....whatever it takes....you need to save your aggressiveness for when it counts...
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Agreed. Go work out, or something. It's not worth your energy; after all, it's just the Internets.
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Chillax, my brothers and sisters...
There's an old saying, from M. Gandhi:
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."
And an similar quote from A. Einstein:
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Please take few breaths, move through your anger, and refrain from lashing out at other users and don't indulge in personal attacks, which is a TOS violation. Instead, shift yourself; don't exacerbate or become the problem. Practice professionalism and civility. If you feel that a post is inappropriate or offensive, then please use the report post feature.
My colleagues and I will take appropriate action on TOS violations.
Thanks for taking a breath and relaxing; carry on. 🙂
There's an old saying, from M. Gandhi:
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."
And an similar quote from A. Einstein:
"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."
Please take few breaths, move through your anger, and refrain from lashing out at other users and don't indulge in personal attacks, which is a TOS violation. Instead, shift yourself; don't exacerbate or become the problem. Practice professionalism and civility. If you feel that a post is inappropriate or offensive, then please use the report post feature.
My colleagues and I will take appropriate action on TOS violations.
Thanks for taking a breath and relaxing; carry on. 🙂
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My beliefs are not very important on this topic. There are some facts, however. If you want to become an orthopaedic surgeon as a DO there are many AOA residencies available and there are plenty of jobs out there. To me, that's all that really matters.
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agreed....if you want to be an ortho as a DO..all the osteopathic roads are open to you...which lead to the same position an allopath would get..with everything being equal...including salary
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is there a number for applicant to spots ratio for DO ortho residenices? i know there ares omething like 240 or whatever total spots, but i try to avoid calculations at all costs 😀
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The only way to really settle which path is to divide the total number of applicants divided by total number of spots seperately for both osteo and allopaths...and see which has a better acceptance ratio....that is the only real way ...anyone have any numbers?
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As a pre-med, don't base you decision on which medical school to attend on what the ratio of applicants to spots for a given field. Things change, people change. By the time you apply the ratio could be better or worse for DO or MDs, and you could have changed your mind on specialty. I started med school wanting to do FP...things change. You will never regret choosing your school if you base it on where you would exceed.
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agreed...but general patterns slowly change..just by a few percentage points...if one route offers a significant better chance..then i would take that route...since in the end...everything is the same...you do the same procedures..you get paid the same...and pt don't know crap about MD's and DO's...trust me...I deal with patients as an underwriter all the time, and they have no clue what a DO or MD is...they don't even choose dr's based on recommendations..they just go to wherever they are referred..or whoever is availabe that accepts their insurance
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I can't beleive that I just went to this much trouble, but I've included a list of programs. The first number following is the TOTAL number of spots they have available. The second number is how many interviews they conducted for 1st year positions last year. Keep in mind that the number of slots available will change from one year to the next. For example, if a program has 8 slots to cover 5 years, then they might take 2 people, 1, or even none in any given year. You won't know how many people actually applied, but you can get a good idea of what the competition will be like if you actually get an interview. To look at more info for yourself click here.
WesternU/COMP/Riverside County Regional MC - Orthopedic Surgery Residency 10 25
NSUCOM/N Broward Hosp District - Orthopedic Surgery Residency 4 8
St James Hosp & Health Centers - Orthopedic Surgery Residency 16 9
Botsford General Hospital - Orthopedic Surgery Residency 16 10
Garden City Hospital - Orthopedic Surgery Residency 11 15
Genesys Regional Med Ctr-Health Park - Orthopedic Surgery Residency 12 40
Ingham Regional Medical Center - Orthopedic Surgery Residency 14 20
St John - Oakland Hospital - Orthopedic Surgery Residency 6 10
Mount Clemens Regional Medical Center - Orthopedic Surgery Residency 15 25
Pontiac Osteopathic Hosp Med Center (POH) - Orthopedic Surgery Residency 13 9
Henry Ford Bi-County Hospital - Orthopedic Surgery Residency 8 10
KCUMB/St. Mary's Hospital of Blue Springs - Orthopedic Surgery Residency 17 22
Des Peres Hospital - Orthopedic Surgery Residency 8 25
UMDNJ/SOM/Kennedy Mem Hsp/Our Lady of Lourdes - Orthopedic Surgery Residency 18 40
Peninsula Hospital Center - Orthopedic Surgery Residency 20 65
OUCOM/Doctors Hospital - Orthopedic Surgery Residency 12 16
Cuyahoga Falls Gen Hosp - Orthopedic Surgery Residency 8 20
OUCOM/Grandview Hosp & Med Ctr - Orthopedic Surgery Residency 12 9
OUCOM/Affinity Medical Center-Doctors Campus - Orthopedic Surgery Residency 6 25
Firelands Regional Medical Center Main Campus - Orthopedic Surgery Residency 8 20
OUCOM/St Vincent Mercy MC - Orthopedic Surgery Residency 16 16
St Joseph Health Center - Orthopedic Surgery Residency 6 4
OUCOM/South Pointe Hosp - Orthopedic Surgery Residency 8 40
OSUCOM/St Anthony Hospital - Orthopedic Surgery Residency 10 10
Oklahoma State University Medical Center - Orthopedic Surgery Residency 8 N/A
Millcreek Community Hospital - Orthopedic Surgery Residency 8 N/A
PCOM/Pinnacle Health Community General Osteopathic Hospital - Orthopedic Surgery Residency 16 30
Philadelphia College Osteopathic Med - Orthopedic Surgery Residency 21 50
Memorial Hospital - Orthopedic Surgery Residency 15 0
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Many DO programs do get a bad reputation, but some actually deserve the negative connotation. Most competitive specialties such as ortho, gen surg, ENT, neurosurg, radiology are well balanced and are on par with the average allopathic programs, if not better than many of them.
BUT, there are programs such as FP, OB/Gyn, IM that do not have the case load, the variety, didactics, and research that allopathic programs offer. It is no wonder why so many DOs choose ACGME programs in those fields, they just want the best curriculum and experience. I am not saying all DO programs in those fields are sub-par, but if you had a choice of FP an an ACGME program that was long standing with great didactics versus an AOA program barely filling with minimal didactics, which would you pick.
As for the the sub-specialties though, I think DO programs offer as much as MD programs. But hey, this is only my experience from rotating and MD and DO programs. I'd say more than half of my class of 150+ went to ACGME programs, guess they are all thinking something in common.
BUT, there are programs such as FP, OB/Gyn, IM that do not have the case load, the variety, didactics, and research that allopathic programs offer. It is no wonder why so many DOs choose ACGME programs in those fields, they just want the best curriculum and experience. I am not saying all DO programs in those fields are sub-par, but if you had a choice of FP an an ACGME program that was long standing with great didactics versus an AOA program barely filling with minimal didactics, which would you pick.
As for the the sub-specialties though, I think DO programs offer as much as MD programs. But hey, this is only my experience from rotating and MD and DO programs. I'd say more than half of my class of 150+ went to ACGME programs, guess they are all thinking something in common.
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I don't think that you can just generalize that way and say that so many DOs choose ACGME programs because of quality. I've been looking at some of them myself, and it's solely because of location. There just aren't enough DO programs around the country where I want to practice. A lot of my classmates feel the same way. Many of them really want to do AOA residencies, but there just aren't any where they want to live.
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Ditto. Location carries a lot of weight for many people (myself included).
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I saw a survey that said 43% of osteopathic students believe that they will get superior training in ACGME programs. I am not qualified to comment on whether thats true or not - but that perception seems to be very pervasive within the osteopathic MSIV students. Can the osteopathic community convince everyone else that the training is 'separate but equal' when a large portion of their students don't believe that it is (Note: By training I mean residencies, not medical school)?
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There are a couple of things to keep in mind about that senior survey. One is that only 67% (1858 of 2775) seniors took that survey. So that percentage could easily change with a full class. And, that data was from 2004.Will the class of 2008 still feel the same? Yet, nearly 60% still believe that ACGME programs are not superior. Also, when it comes to choosing programs, that is hardly the only criteria. Seniors were allowed to pick multiple reasons: nearly 40% said osteopathic programs weren't available in their geographic region, 30% pointed out family considerations, another 30% said their specialty training was not available in osteopathic residencies. There are lots of reasons that you have to weigh in order to make a choice of that magnitude.
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Not denying any of that, but 40% is still a very large chunk of people. I am not sure if the perception has changed in four years - do they do the survery every year or was it a one time thing?
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Each year a "freshman" and a "senior" survey of osteopathic students are taken and the report comes out eventually-- it seems to take years for some reason. We did the "freshman" one during orientation week , and I really don't know how much credence I'd put into the answers because none of us knew jack about what we were answering. The "senior" survey should be a lot more indicative. The number of students has increased tremendously since the last published results, though, so I'm interested to see what the future brings.
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Yea, there definitely was a marked difference between freshman and senior attitudes (the superior training number jumped like 20%). But you are correct - that could very well have changed recently.
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Ummmm......It is actually properly spelled Orthopaedics. Most people are just lazy and leave out the "a." Honestly, I would rather leave it out. Every time I see it spelled Orthopaedics I think of some snobby Brit..... But hey, proper is proper...what do ya do?
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I think that either spelling is correct.
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ecg or ekg?
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It depends on if you're in the US or in the rest of the world...US: orthopedics, Abroad: Orthopeadics....as is peadiactrics. Webster changed all of the spellings of english words to americanize the english language.
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In my experience, if you ask an orthopod how to spell his specialty, you'll get this:
Orthopod turns and yells at scrub tech, "DUDE, SERIOUSLY, TURN DOWN THE GREEN DAY, JUST FOR A SEC, SOMEBODY'S ASKING ME SOMETHING."
Orthopod starts to turn back to questioner but is distracted by colleague, to whom he says, "OH YEAH, PATS ARE BEST EVER, YOU KNOW IT YOU ***** ******, SUCK IT UP! YEEEEEAAAAAHHHHH!!!"
This is followed by a full historical litany and rigorous debate of the merits of the Patriots vs. (realistically) the Packers, which lasts from 30 seconds to 2 minutes depending on the first structurally sound cross-reference to basketball.
At this point the surgical instruments company representative suggests a correction on the hip screw, which re-stratifies the room. After 4 minutes of work, the surgical instruments company representative reminds the orthopod that sailing starts at 6 am sharp on Sunday and that the Tahoe conference is probably going to be in May this year.
(Repeat indefinitely.)
45 minutes later, the orthopod remembers that there was a question, and looks around for its source. When the source is re-identified, the orthopod proceeds to mercilessly pimp the questioner on the college majors of NBA first round draft picks.
Orthopod turns and yells at scrub tech, "DUDE, SERIOUSLY, TURN DOWN THE GREEN DAY, JUST FOR A SEC, SOMEBODY'S ASKING ME SOMETHING."
Orthopod starts to turn back to questioner but is distracted by colleague, to whom he says, "OH YEAH, PATS ARE BEST EVER, YOU KNOW IT YOU ***** ******, SUCK IT UP! YEEEEEAAAAAHHHHH!!!"
This is followed by a full historical litany and rigorous debate of the merits of the Patriots vs. (realistically) the Packers, which lasts from 30 seconds to 2 minutes depending on the first structurally sound cross-reference to basketball.
At this point the surgical instruments company representative suggests a correction on the hip screw, which re-stratifies the room. After 4 minutes of work, the surgical instruments company representative reminds the orthopod that sailing starts at 6 am sharp on Sunday and that the Tahoe conference is probably going to be in May this year.
(Repeat indefinitely.)
45 minutes later, the orthopod remembers that there was a question, and looks around for its source. When the source is re-identified, the orthopod proceeds to mercilessly pimp the questioner on the college majors of NBA first round draft picks.
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That's awesome. You've convinced me to gun my ass off for ortho.
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LOL!!! That is some funny sh**t. I completely agree. And you wonder why so many guys want to specialize in Ortho?
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LOL!!! That is some funny sh**t. I completely agree. And you wonder why so many guys want to specialize in Ortho?
Yeah, I can't do ortho because I don't know football or bball. I'd be dead in the water. Worse, I'd probably try to debate Federer v. Sampras and then I'd get blanket-partied. I don't know how the women orthopods do it. Actually, the only women orthopods I know are extremely attractive, and don't get offended easily. That totally explains it.
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Hey, I'd join the debate without judgement. I'm a big Fed fan. That guy is just sweet, but no more grand slam hopes this year.
