DO's and Rehab

[PMandR]

I've been skimming through this site and it seems that some osteopathic students are a little concerned about being a DO and applying to rehab programs. So, for what it's worth, I will attempt to alleviate some unnecessary worries.

I can't speak for other specialties but as far as rehab goes, there's absolutely no need to distress about being a DO. If anything, it's a definite plus. At a prominent NYC program, the program director told me as well as 3 other students (1 DO and 2 MDs) that he absolutely prefers DO's in his program. He stated that his residents have the highest score on the musculoskeletal portion of the rehab boards and that he attributes this to the DO residents in his program. I was rotating there for a month and shortly after completing the rotation my school notified me that he wrote me a letter of recommendation, which I never even remotely asked for.

I've also completed the year long OMT fellowship and I THOUROUGHLY EMPHASIZED this throughout my application. I was offered interviews at pretty much every program I applied to, mostly in the top 10 and including RIC, Kessler, and NYU. Additionally, I received my first choice pick. While I did take the USMLE, I took it later on and the programs had no idea until well after the interviews. Plus, while on elective PM and R rotations, I was asked to give lectures on OMT and I definitely found attendings to be very receptive to my use of OMT on their patients, not to mention very impressed by the results.

I'm currently at a very, if not the most, prestigious hospital in the US and one that's very MD heavy. I still very much accentuate osteopathic manipulation. It's definitely very rewarding when your nailing diagnoses of muscle pain that pain management specialists and neurologists here are scratching their heads about. In one instance, these guys were throwing NSAIDs and neurontin around and recommending cervical epidural steroid injections. When they sent the patient to rehab, I simply put my hands on his muscles, noted tissue texture changes and asymmetry, treated him with FPR, CS, MFR, ME, and deep tissue friction massage and wallah/poof, he was begging me for my card and for a second appointment, all while the program director was sitting in and observing ever so nicely. Definite gold star for me.

So, the fable of the story - you should definitely embrace your OMT skills with confidence. It's absolutely, without doubt, 100%, a definite asset… at least in my feeble opinion.

As an addendum, my classmate matched at Yale in medicine and I also came across several schoolmates of mine here sprinkled about in various fields.

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[clarence]

I just wanted to add - I have had my eye on one particular program for quite some time that I had heard had a rep for being one of the few "anti-DO" programs. Of course I was intimidated going there to visit for my elective. I found they were not really anti-DO at all. In fact, they loved me and kept saying that they were dead-set on recruiting me to come there. On multiple occasions when a group of students and residents were being pimped I knew the answers without hesitation that others did not know at all. Why did I know things the others didn't? - the extra msk/anatomy training I recieved in OMT classes. So I agree - fear not fellow DO students. I too think it is a huge asset (thats why I went to a DO school in the first place)

 

[oreosandsake]

 

[ShrikeMD]

If I were a D.O., I wouldn't worry. You will find excellent D.O. colleagues as attending physicians and residents in many of the finest physiatry programs in this country. Perhaps there are some who would consider this an advantage (I am unsure if I would agree with this-I am inclined to think of it as a less important factor than motivation, fund-of-knowledge, and quality of training), but in this specialty being a D.O. is not a disadvantage.

 

[LilMango]

I am a DO s tudent considering PM&R. CAn anyone please tell me the average score? I am in the top 25% of my class in terms of grades but I scored a 485 on the comlex...Any advice is appreciated!

 

[Whirly]

I am a DO s tudent considering PM&R. CAn anyone please tell me the average score? I am in the top 25% of my class in terms of grades but I scored a 485 on the comlex...Any advice is appreciated!

This question seems to come up every year or so, so try searching for prior threads on this topic. That typically affects whether you get an interview invite in the first place. Anyway, as a DO that has completed a PM&R residency and had a chance to conduct residency candidate interviews for my program when I was a resident, here are my 2 cents:

As for scores and grades, don't get too worked up about it, because other factors can put you over the top at your program of choice. You are in the top quarter of your class (great). Try to study hard and do well on step 2. Regarding board scores, it is an issue for you if you failed it first (a red flag.) In any case, rotate at a couple of programs you are interested in, show that you are hard worker (letters of rec, assessments in all rotations, and during rotation at the program), do well on your rotation at the program, and show that you fit in personality-wise with the attendings and residents. You will then have a good chance of getting ranked fairly well at many good programs (maybe not top tier). Our program automatically interviewed anyone that rotated with them that applied - either during the rotation or later.

How you fit in personality-wise can go a long way. Remember, PM&R is a people/patient-oriented field, and you are going to have to deal with patients and family members often going through some of the worst and most difficult experiences of their lives, deal with sometimes stressed out/overworked staff, as well as deal with specialists in other fields that don't necessarily share a 'sunny' disposition. Attendings and staff that are considering bringing you into their program are also wondering if they can work with you for 3 years. Being adaptable, being a consistent hard worker, and having a sense of humor are important.

Hope this helps. If you have any additional questions, feel free to PM me.

 

[latinman]

I am an MD. One of my colleagues is a DO. Some of them choose the specialty because they like to slack a lot. Now I am not making speculations here, but talking from my own personal experience. I got burned on multiple occasions during my 2nd year inpatient rehab because my colleague wouldn't evaluate patient's appropriately and would miss on big medical issues such as: Ileus, CHF, Sepsis, etc.


I guess it depends on which DO school you did your training in. I am pretty certain that there are certain DO schools out there that PD's don't like recruiting Medical student's from.

Now please don't flame me, but my limited experience with the DO's I have worked with has been less than desirable.

Don't get me wrong, I am pretty certain that there are very well trained DO's at certain institutions. However, I think there isn't consistency in the way these student's get trained throughout the nation. Besides we worked hard to get into Medical School, and many times payed big time tuition, and find it frustrating to see how DO's will come in and steal our spots, when we aren't allowed to apply to their osteopathic programs. Now that is a Double Standard...

Yeah, go ahead and flame me... Call me a bitter person. You know what... It doesn't matter because I am finishing my training in 7 months.

 

[njdevil]

"I got burned on multiple occasions during my 2nd year inpatient rehab because my colleague wouldn't evaluate patient's appropriately and would miss on big medical issues such as: Ileus, CHF, Sepsis, etc."

This is DO specific issue? A physician, no matter what school they attend who miss things.

"Don't get me wrong, I am pretty certain that there are very well trained DO's at certain institutions. However, I think there isn't consistency in the way these student's get trained throughout the nation."

I think you can say the very same thing with the word MD's in place of DO's. The person plays a larger role than their training, people make what they want of an opportunity.

"Besides we worked hard to get into Medical School, and many times payed big time tuition, and find it frustrating to see how DO's will come in and steal our spots, when we aren't allowed to apply to their osteopathic programs. Now that is a Double Standard..."

I am sure osteopathic medical students worked hard and payed big time tuition. But if you do view your training as superior, why would an allopathic program even consider an osteopathic student physician or allow them to "steal a spot".

Good luck with practice, hopefully you will be able to work with other physicians from all walks of life as they may be your boss, colleague, or training with you.

 

[Ludicolo]

I am an MD. One of my colleagues is a DO. Some of them choose the specialty because they like to slack a lot. Now I am not making speculations here, but talking from my own personal experience. I got burned on multiple occasions during my 2nd year inpatient rehab because my colleague wouldn't evaluate patient's appropriately and would miss on big medical issues such as: Ileus, CHF, Sepsis, etc.


I guess it depends on which DO school you did your training in. I am pretty certain that there are certain DO schools out there that PD's don't like recruiting Medical student's from.

Now please don't flame me, but my limited experience with the DO's I have worked with has been less than desirable.

Don't get me wrong, I am pretty certain that there are very well trained DO's at certain institutions. However, I think there isn't consistency in the way these student's get trained throughout the nation. Besides we worked hard to get into Medical School, and many times payed big time tuition, and find it frustrating to see how DO's will come in and steal our spots, when we aren't allowed to apply to their osteopathic programs. Now that is a Double Standard...

Yeah, go ahead and flame me... Call me a bitter person. You know what... It doesn't matter because I am finishing my training in 7 months.

Wow. Bah humbug indeed.

I too am an MD. And one of my colleagues is a DO. I personally recruited him, and we were lucky to land him. In fact, many of my friends and colleagues since starting residency are DOs. And I’ve worked at some decent, respectable institutions. I'll testify for any of them in a heartbeat. They did not “steal” any positions – they EARNED them. If anything, because of this inane stigma attached to DOs, they probably have worked harder to achieve the same status as their peers. Yes, there are slackers in this field, both MD and DO. Let’s face it – our field isn’t as competitive as others, and it has an excellent lifestyle associated with it. That’s a recipe for slacker attraction if ever there was one.

You freely admit that your experience in this situation is limited. As an attending for >6 years, I have mentored many MD and DO students and residents, so I’ll hazard a guess and say I have more experience in this than you do. Some of my residents/students were stellar. Some not so much. The degree doesn’t matter. The school doesn't matter. The base training is the same. What matters is the person behind the degree.

Seriously. MD vs. DO. Get over it.

 

[drusso]

This is a stupid thread.

But, for what it is worth, PM&R is often highly regarded as "DO friendly" (along with family medicine, OB/GYN, peds, psych, etc) because of the field's focus on holistic function which is sympathetic to osteopathic principles. There are Bonehead DO's and Bonehead MD's and you'll have plenty of opportunities to meet them both.

Good luck.

 

[latinman]

"I got burned on multiple occasions during my 2nd year inpatient rehab because my colleague wouldn't evaluate patient's appropriately and would miss on big medical issues such as: Ileus, CHF, Sepsis, etc."

This is DO specific issue? A physician, no matter what school they attend who miss things.

True, but if you look at the matching stats. Most of the DO's end up matching into Primary Care and PM&R. They also have a higher rate of unmatched residents when compared to MD's.

"Don't get me wrong, I am pretty certain that there are very well trained DO's at certain institutions. However, I think there isn't consistency in the way these student's get trained throughout the nation."

I think you can say the very same thing with the word MD's in place of DO's. The person plays a larger role than their training, people make what they want of an opportunity.

That is true to certain extent. I can speak from my personal experience that independent effort and study can only take you so far (unless your a Genius; not me). Having good and knowledgeable clinicians during your medical school years is very important in order to succeed in becoming competent for residency training. There is so much variation in the kind of teaching that student's get depending on which insitution they trained at.

""Besides we worked hard to get into Medical School, and many times payed big time tuition, and find it frustrating to see how DO's will come in and steal our spots, when we aren't allowed to apply to their osteopathic programs. Now that is a Double Standard..."

I am sure osteopathic medical students worked hard and payed big time tuition. But if you do view your training as superior, why would an allopathic program even consider an osteopathic student physician or allow them to "steal a spot".

Well if that is the case, I think it would be only fair for me to also have the opportunity of applying to osteopathic residency training programs. If their training is superior, why would an osteopath feel threatened about me applying to their program?

"Good luck with practice, hopefully you will be able to work with other physicians from all walks of life as they may BE YOUR BOSS, colleague, or training with you.

Sorry to dissapoint you but I am not going to have any boss after training. I am opening my own shop...

 

[clement]

If anything, the DO stigma in PM&R (if any exists, seriously why are we even discussing this?) mostly persists from an FMG-standpoint, ppl who would rather have those spots open to them and who may not be as "up-to-date" as compared to US MD's who train side-by-side DO's about the facts of med school education in the US (thereby continually dooping DO's as "slackers," etc). Bottom line, if you want PM&R as a US grad, the doors are open from ground floor to ivy league.

 

[DRJJ1]

if anything, the do stigma in pm&r (if any exists, seriously why are we even discussing this?) mostly persists from an fmg-standpoint, ppl who would rather have those spots open to them and who may not be as "up-to-date" as compared to us md's who train side-by-side do's about the facts of med school education in the us (thereby continually dooping do's as "slackers," etc). Bottom line, if you want pm&r as a us grad, the doors are open from ground floor to ivy league.

you are delUding yourself into thinking fmgs are weaker than us trained but thats ok,,the time comes when you get a guy like myself trained as a chiro 20 yrs and get on the floor next to you as a md to show you a few things remember the us is pretty good at pumping out well trained docs buttttt they are not the only game in town
i would be more than happy to go up against any us trained doc at this point us trained chiro doc and img md student,,,no problem but again all this ego talk is a waste of my time

 

[ampaphb]

Realizing I am about to get pummeled, tell me why an applicant with a 3.95 GPA, great extracurrics, recs, and research, with a full ride being offered in all cases, would chose to go the IMG, FMG, DO, or Chiro route, rather than pursuing a US allopathic degree.

 

[Whirly]

Realizing I am about to get pummeled, tell me why an applicant with a 3.95 GPA, great extracurrics, recs, and research, with a full ride being offered in all cases, would chose to go the IMG, FMG, DO, or Chiro route, rather than pursuing a US allopathic degree.

All right ampaphb, you asked for it!

In my case, <GASP!> I didn't want to go to a US allopathic school</GASP!>. For me, it was part family tradition (3rd generation DO), and a large part in wanting the additional OMM training (which I also did a fellowship in) having experienced it first hand growing up.
Look, having worked with doctors from every training background that you have listed above, there are brilliant doctors and (unfortunately) poor doctors from each of those training backgrounds. I think that judging your fellow doctor's skills based solely on where they received their medical school training is pretty shallow. Some people have had varied and interesting life experiences before medical school. It really comes down to how one applies oneself once one gets to school and continues to learn and apply it once out of it.

 

[drusso]

Realizing I am about to get pummeled, tell me why an applicant with a 3.95 GPA, great extracurrics, recs, and research, with a full ride being offered in all cases, would chose to go the IMG, FMG, DO, or Chiro route, rather than pursuing a US allopathic degree.

Ampaphb,

I turned down a seat at a MD school for a DO school...mostly based on weather/location. Of course, if I had known where I was going to eventually do my residency, I just would sucked it up and learned to live in the snow!