DOs - Residency matching

[JMaxwe11]

Hi, I would like some clarification on the changes made to the DO residency matching. From what I've read, DOs are now on an equal footing as an MD when applying for a MD-Residency? Or, are DO residencies now the equivalent to MD residencies?

Thank you.

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[becomingdoctor]

no longer separate not yet equal

 

[cliquesh]

Hi, I would like some clarification on the changes made to the DO residency matching. From what I've read, DOs are now on an equal footing as an MD when applying for a MD-Residency? Or, are DO residencies now the equivalent to MD residencies?

Thank you.

No, DOs will not be on equal footing with US MDs.

DO residencies are currently accredited by the AOA. The acgme is the accrediting agency for "MD residencies." In the near future all residencies, including DO residencies, will be accredited by the acgme. Therefore, all residencies in the United States will, at the very least, meet the minimum requirements of the acgme. Additionally, just to let you know, just because a residency is acgme accredited doesn't mean it's good. There are plenty of terrible acgme residencies.

 

[JMaxwe11]

No, DOs will not be on equal footing with US MDs.

DO residencies are currently accredited by the AOA. The acgme is the accrediting agency for "MD residencies." In the near future all residencies, including DO residencies, will be accredited by the acgme. Therefore, all residencies in the United States will, at the very least, meet the minimum requirements of the acgme. Additionally, just to let you know, just because a residency is acgme accredited doesn't mean it's good. There are plenty of terrible acgme residencies.

So, what implication does this have on the future of DO physicians then? If all of their residencies will eventually become accredited by the ACGME.

 

[cliquesh]

So, what implication does this have on the future of DO physicians then? If all of their residencies will eventually become accredited by the ACGME.

More standardized graduate medical education. Other than that, I'm not sure what will happen. I don't think the merger will be a huge plus or negative for DO students.

 

[Dr. Death]

Oh hello again thread. I haven't seen you in a few days.

 

[Seth Joo]

As a DO you will get a residency become a licensed physician and get a job, but no you will not be on the same footing as an MD, despite the merger.

 

[Azete]

As a DO you will get a residency become a licensed physician and get a job, but no you will not be on the same footing as an MD, despite the merger.

Just to add some additional clarity, he means it will still be more difficult for DOs to match into top residencies. However, a DO and MD that attend the same residency are exactly equal and the letters mean nothing at that point.

 

[Seth Joo]

Just to add some additional clarity, he means it will still be more difficult for DOs to match into top residencies. However, a DO and MD that attend the same residency are exactly equal and the letters mean nothing at that point.

That is true. Certain residency programs won't look at DOs, particularly the elite ones unless they have stellar board scores, references, etc.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

It's possible in the long run that it will help a little bit with the bias, once all PDs have had more exposure to more DOs either in their programs or the programs around theirs. Personally I think it might be slightly detrimental as MDs can now apply for the competitive specialty slots. I agree with Cliquesh, probably not super helpful but probably won't hurt a ton either in the end.

Disclaimer: the above is all personal opinion based on what I've read in SDN and a few other places

 

[StudyLater]

Yeah the negative is obviously opening up the AOA floodgates for MD competition.

I don't see any positives, really, for DOs except just greater official recognition by the ACGME

 

[IslandStyle808]

Yeah the negative is obviously opening up the AOA floodgates for MD competition.

I don't see any positives, really, for DOs except just greater official recognition by the ACGME

If one does an osteopathic residency under the ACGME, there will be less discrimination faced when applying to fellowships and jobs than in the past. That is one of the few positives.

 

[Stagg737]

So, what implication does this have on the future of DO physicians then? If all of their residencies will eventually become accredited by the ACGME.

Previously, individuals completing residencies at AOA locations could not apply for ACGME fellowships. After the merger this will no longer be the case (as all programs will have ACGME accreditation). So more opportunities for DOs to advance their careers further down the line will open up.

 

[osteohack10]

Just in case this merger thing goes south, my back up plan is to find a nice girl that wants to do neurosurg at the MD school down the road

 

[trev5150]

Just in case this merger thing goes south, my back up plan is to find a nice girl that wants to do neurosurg at the MD school down the road

That's great if your plan is to never see said girl.

 

[osteohack10]

That's great if your plan is to never see said girl.

That's an option???

 

[Seth Joo]

If one does an osteopathic residency under the ACGME, there will be less discrimination faced when applying to fellowships and jobs than in the past. That is one of the few positives.

I think that is about it, but that being said, you will mostly see DOs in primary care compared to MDs.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Yeah the negative is obviously opening up the AOA floodgates for MD competition.

I don't see any positives, really, for DOs except just greater official recognition by the ACGME

ACGME recognition admittedly is still in my opinion a big deal. It validates our education and it tells the world that we're being trained the same way as MD physicians. And while we don't legally need to prove this, professionally and especially with the large expansion of poor quality new schools we do.

Likewise almost all AOA residencies retained their previous hierarchy and their PDs, they will not suddenly start taking MD grads because they know that they're what DOs need to make sure they match.

 

[mathnerd88]

Just in case this merger thing goes south, my back up plan is to find a nice girl that wants to do neurosurg at the MD school down the road

Lol...let me know if you can find a girl who is willing to pay your $200k+ medical school debt on top of hers when you can't land into a residency. She will have to love you a lot!

I would be seriously impressed!

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I think that is about it, but that being said, you will mostly see DOs in primary care compared to MDs.

There's nothing wrong with aiming for primary care as a DO and in many cases it's what we do come in wanting. I personally for a very long time always held this weird belief that its really weird that someone would be in the top 20% of their class and want to go into FM and then I realized that it's a personal choice. I think plenty of DOs want to go into FM not by choice but because they find the academicness of other specialties to be not something they're interested in.

That being said there are plenty of non PCP residencies that are very open to DOs and many fellowships as well.

 

[Seth Joo]

There's nothing wrong with aiming for primary care as a DO and in many cases it's what we do come in wanting. I personally for a very long time always held this weird belief that its really weird that someone would be in the top 20% of their class and want to go into FM and then I realized that it's a personal choice. I think plenty of DOs want to go into FM not by choice but because they find the academicness of other specialties to be not something they're interested in.

That being said there are plenty of non PCP residencies that are very open to DOs and many fellowships as well.

Its mostly because DOs tend to be limited to that or their schools indoctrinate their students to become primary care physicians, my school realizes that many of students including myself at one time or another were aiming to become MDs, many of us are going to into unbelievable amounts of debt and financial stress, that they encourage us to pursue specialties.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Its mostly because DOs tend to be limited to that or their schools indoctrinate their students to become primary care physicians, my school realizes that many of students including myself at one time or another were aiming to become MDs, many of us are going to into unbelievable amounts of debt and financial stress, that they encourage us to pursue specialties.

I don't agree at all. Even low tier DO students have strong shots at things like PMR, OB, low Gas, Psych, low tier IM ( With decent chances at sub specialties), and etc ( And still predominantly 40% of DOs will choose FM). DOs inevitably choose FM because I think many of them end of finding it to be a nice balance of work and play ( Sure you're no going to be making 400k as a GI who does 20 Endo/colons a day, but you'll make enough to pay off debt).

 

[Seth Joo]

I don't agree at all. Even low tier DO students have strong shots at things like PMR, OB, low Gas, Psych, low tier IM ( With decent chances at sub specialties), and etc ( And still predominantly 40% of DOs will choose FM). DOs inevitably choose FM because I think many of them end of finding it to be a nice balance of work and play ( Sure you're no going to be making 400k as a GI who does 20 Endo/colons a day, but you'll make enough to pay off debt).

Low Tier IM, not high tier IM.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Low Tier IM, not high tier IM.

That's what I said, and even then low tier IM still has a decent shot at say allergy and not too bad at Pulm/CC. Obviously GI & Cards is closed, but those are hard to get for even MDs too.

 

[Seth Joo]

That's what I said, and even then low tier IM still has a decent shot at say allergy and not too bad at Pulm/CC. Obviously GI & Cards is closed, but those are hard to get for even MDs too.

Depends on the MD school, it is one of the more well known names, all doors are open for their graduates.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Depends on the MD school, it is one of the more well known names, all doors are open for their graduates.

Chances are the ones who will choose Cardio & GI will still inevitably be in the top 20% of their class and score in the 240's+.

 

[Seth Joo]

Chances are the ones who will choose Cardio & GI will still inevitably be in the top 20% of their class and score in the 240's+.

You could be near the bottom at Harvard and go wherever you want. All their students are amazing anyway.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

You could be near the bottom at Harvard and go wherever you want. All their students are amazing anyway.

Harvard is a myth, it doesn't actually exist when talking about general points.

 

[cliquesh]

In 2011, the match rate for USMDs going into acgme cardiology, heme/onc, and GI were 86%, 84%, and 78%, respectively. The match rates were 66%, 66%, and 33% for DOs.

The overall match rate for DOs applying to acgme fellowships has increased in recent years, going from 68% in 2011 to 78% in 2015.

 

[costales]

You could be near the bottom at Harvard and go wherever you want. All their students are amazing anyway.

Yay, Harvard!! Your posts didn't sound right without it.

 

[mathnerd88]

You could be near the bottom at Harvard and go wherever you want. All their students are amazing anyway.

Not necessarily true. It really depends on your board scores. If you have a Harvard Med School grad who did terribly on the boards, then it won't matter. However, with above average/good board scores, the Harvard name WILL get you into a good residency program.

Connections you make at Harvard Med are important, but it still won't help you if you did badly in your boards.

 

[Seth Joo]

Not necessarily true. It really depends on your board scores. If you have a Harvard Med School grad who did terribly on the boards, then it won't matter. However, with above average/good board scores, the Harvard name WILL get you into a good residency program.

Connections you make at Harvard Med are important, but it still won't help you if you did badly in your boards.

I think its rare for a Harvard graduate to do poorly on their boards, they get the best students in the country. With excellent board scores you can specialize as a DO, but with average scores it is harder than an MD from a mid tier or a top school.

 

[mathnerd88]

I think its rare for a Harvard graduate to do poorly on their boards, they get the best students in the country. With excellent board scores you can specialize as a DO, but with average scores it is harder than an MD from a mid tier or a top school.

You'd be surprised at how some HMS graduates do poorly on boards.

 

[Stagg737]

Its mostly because DOs tend to be limited to that or their schools indoctrinate their students to become primary care physicians, my school realizes that many of students including myself at one time or another were aiming to become MDs, many of us are going to into unbelievable amounts of debt and financial stress, that they encourage us to pursue specialties.

Being able to pay off your debt is not a reason that a med school is going to encourage you to enter a specialty. They want students to specialize because it makes the school look more impressive in terms of reputation and prestige. If debt were a concern they'd be supplementing you with basic classes on medical finance and business.

Besides, many PCPs could easily clear 300k if they put in the hours some surgeons do, and many make that working far less than surgeons by understanding proper business models.

 

[Seth Joo]

Being able to pay off your debt is not a reason that a med school is going to encourage you to enter a specialty. They want students to specialize because it makes the school look more impressive in terms of reputation and prestige. If debt were a concern they'd be supplementing you with basic classes on medical finance and business.

Besides, many PCPs could easily clear 300k if they put in the hours some surgeons do, and many make that working far less than surgeons by understanding proper business models.

That is one of the reasons many graduates pursue specialty over primary care training, specialties pay better incomes. A family doctor is not going to make the same income as Dermatologist or ENT working 9-5. Family doctors can make more money working longer hours and having good business skills, that is true.

 

[Stagg737]

That is one of the reasons many graduates pursue specialty over primary care training, specialties pay better incomes. A family doctor is not going to make the same income as Dermatologist or ENT working 9-5. Family doctors can make more money working longer hours and having good business skills, that is true.

There's an inherent problem with that statement. When all things are equal, a lot of specialties really don't make that much more than PCPs. However, some specialties (like surgery) make significantly more because they work more hours while others (like derm) make a lot because they have a higher patient volume. If we want to know the real difference, hourly rate is a far better indicator than salary and the discrepancies become less.

 

[cliquesh]

There's an inherent problem with that statement. When all things are equal, a lot of specialties really don't make that much more than PCPs. However, some specialties (like surgery) make significantly more because they work more hours while others (like derm) make a lot because they have a higher patient volume. If we want to know the real difference, hourly rate is a far better indicator than salary and the discrepancies become less.

I got offered a job for 12 hrs a week and no call for $150k/yr....

 

[osteohack10]

There's nothing wrong with aiming for primary care as a DO and in many cases it's what we do come in wanting. I personally for a very long time always held this weird belief that its really weird that someone would be in the top 20% of their class and want to go into FM and then I realized that it's a personal choice. I think plenty of DOs want to go into FM not by choice but because they find the academicness of other specialties to be not something they're interested in.

That being said there are plenty of non PCP residencies that are very open to DOs and many fellowships as well.

I also think it has a lot to do with the fact that as people move through school they realize that you can go a lot of different directions with FM - hospitalist, OB focus, EM etc.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

That is one of the reasons many graduates pursue specialty over primary care training, specialties pay better incomes. A family doctor is not going to make the same income as Dermatologist or ENT working 9-5. Family doctors can make more money working longer hours and having good business skills, that is true.

And a surgeon would make less than an FM doctor working 9-5. What's your point?

I also think it has a lot to do with the fact that as people move through school they realize that you can go a lot of different directions with FM - hospitalist, OB focus, EM etc.

Possibly. So far I've come to think that it's a nice job and does not have to be a last resort.

 

[meliora27]

In terms of DO's matching into competive fellowships (namely GI and Cards as they're the most competitive) the most important thing is to match into the absolute "best" IM program you can.

If you can match at a solid mid-tier university program with some name recognition, with in house fellowships, and faculty actively publishing, you're going to be on pretty solid ground when applying to fellowships.

Unfortunately, for various reasons, most DO's match at a lot of community ACGME IM programs. Even if these programs have an in-house fellowships, you've really put all your eggs in that basket is it's very hard to go from a community residency to a university fellowship, it's especially hard if you're a DO (fact of life).

 

[Stagg737]

I got offered a job for 12 hrs a week and no call for $150k/yr....

Mind sharing the field?

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

Mind sharing the field?

Cliq does gas.

 

[Seth Joo]

In terms of DO's matching into competive fellowships (namely GI and Cards as they're the most competitive) the most important thing is to match into the absolute "best" IM program you can.

If you can match at a solid mid-tier university program with some name recognition, with in house fellowships, and faculty actively publishing, you're going to be on pretty solid ground when applying to fellowships.

Unfortunately, for various reasons, most DO's match at a lot of community ACGME IM programs. Even if these programs have an in-house fellowships, you've really put all your eggs in that basket is it's very hard to go from a community residency to a university fellowship, it's especially hard if you're a DO (fact of life).

This is mostly because DOs tend to rotate at community hospitals rather than at large teaching hospitals like MDs, so that is why DOs are more likely to get community based IM residencies than prestigious research based IM.