Drained by ICU

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siliso

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I am never bored there, even after 28 hours in a row. I learn a ton every day. But f**k. I am tired of torturing people who are going to die anyway. I never want to feel anyone's ribs crunch under my hands again. People are trying like hell to die and we cannot let them do it without breaking all their gdamn ribs first. And starving them and denying them so much as a begged-for cup of ice chips "they might aspirate." WHO CARES THEY ARE GOING TO DIE LET THEM ASPIRATE IF THEY WANT TO. I am sick of hurting people and doing things that I think are futile and not right.

In reading "how doctors die" I know that we know we would never want this for ourselves, and yet so many families "want" it after we half assed explain it to them, and I can't help but think there has to be a communication failure involved. Why can't we tell people, I don't want to do this to your brother. I wouldn't do it to my brother. Can we agree not to do it, please?
 
Pre-med ER tech here, and I feel the same way about the patients we send up there. The attendings basically try to get them upstairs before they die, and then I have to come with a nurse and a respiratory tech when they go up just in case I need to give them CPR on the way.


I guess I'd understand if these were young people who had a chance at recovery, but my ER serves a very geriatric population. Sherwin Williams does a wonderful job of describing it in "How We Die"--I'm paraphrasing here, but something about how society has this image of death with dignity that is a total illusion. It seems like it's prolonged pain for everyone that's involved, and it's clear that if no one is benefiting, least of all the patient, something should change.

But can it? How do you gain support for physician-assisted suicide, or even just allowing the physician to make resuscitation decisions instead of the family? Doctors are in a much better position to assess the tradeoffs between keeping someone alive and the quality-of-life sacrifice. I guess the problem is that it's so subjective.


I wrote my personal statement about seeing the elderly in the ER dying with such indignity, but I rewrote the entire thing because everyone who read it had the common sense to point out that it's a terrible idea to write about something so risky on a PS. It is one of the reasons I'm so interested in becoming a doctor, though. The system does need to change, and I think that's hard to understand for people who don't spend so much time around the dying.
 
I guess I have a hard time, even in the current paradigm of families being the ultimate decisionmakers, with how wishy-washy it seems like we feel like we have to be in discussing the matter of death and coding and aggressive measures. Even when everyone in the team room is 100% agreed that no code, comfort measures only is the medically and ethically most appropriate approach, we ask the family what they think without ever telling them clearly "we think this is wrong and not helpful and our medical opinion is that we should treat your loved one with comfort care and loving presence and let them pass in peace, can you agree to that?" We can make a direct recommendation and request consent clearly when it comes to a surgery or a transfusion...why must we make this difficult for families by failing to offer a clear and unequivocal recommendation when it comes to the end of life? Why do we have to put a burden on them in this situation to tell us what to do without the directive guidance that we offer in almost any other medical or surgical situation? It seems unfair to them. And we're all going to die. It's not optional.
 
Sherwin Williams does a wonderful job of describing it in "How We Die"--I'm paraphrasing here, but something about how society has this image of death with dignity that is a total illusion. It seems like it's prolonged pain for everyone that's involved, and it's clear that if no one is benefiting, least of all the patient, something should change.

But can it? How do you gain support for physician-assisted suicide, or even just allowing the physician to make resuscitation decisions instead of the family? Doctors are in a much better position to assess the tradeoffs between keeping someone alive and the quality-of-life sacrifice. I guess the problem is that it's so subjective.

I think it can change, and I think that as a doctor, you're in a fantastic position to encourage this evolution of medical care. I think that as future physicians we have a duty to remind society that medicine is not about cheating death to the bitter end. But that it's about quality of life and realizing that we have a certain amount of time allotted to us. Medicine should help us enjoy that time as best we can and not aim to prolong it without qualification or consideration for suffering. I think it's a darn shame that for so many reasons, end-of-life care is not given the priority it should be in medical practice and education.

To Siliso: I'm just starting med school this year and it scares me to read what you wrote about your ICU experience. That sounds horrible. Does this bother any of your peers too? Maybe you guys can start an interest group that focuses on raising awareness about this at your school or as part of your AMA chapter?
 
it's the circle of life man. medicine just puts its foot somewhere in it.

we live in a disillusioned society where we are further and further removed from death by modernization. no one really sees death anymore or understands it's subtleties. our food products come from plastic wrap packages and in nice size able portions that in no way resemble the animal that was killed. we put our elders into nursing homes at alarming rates compared to even just a generation ago when grandparents lived in the home. my parents' generation is the first to be really separated from it (in america), and it'll probably get worse because we think that since we have these nifty little touch screen devices and shows on tv where crazy **** gets cured, then we must live in a society where death is an option and not a fact of life.

it really really wont change, not in america. we dont live THAT MUCH longer because of miraculous treatments or even vaccines. we live longer because life is less demanding today. medicine takes the credit but fails to deliver the results.
 
I'm a huge fan of EM and critical care podcasts. Two of my favorite podcasters are Scott Weingarten and the guy who does ICU rounds. They discuss things like colloids, acid-base chemistry, intubation sequences, etc. I hadn't thought about it before now, but is that what makes good intensivists? Keepng their patients alive for as long as medically possible?
 
it's the circle of life man. medicine just puts its foot somewhere in it.

we live in a disillusioned society where we are further and further removed from death by modernization. no one really sees death anymore or understands it's subtleties. our food products come from plastic wrap packages and in nice size able portions that in no way resemble the animal that was killed. we put our elders into nursing homes at alarming rates compared to even just a generation ago when grandparents lived in the home. my parents' generation is the first to be really separated from it (in america), and it'll probably get worse because we think that since we have these nifty little touch screen devices and shows on tv where crazy **** gets cured, then we must live in a society where death is an option and not a fact of life.

it really really wont change, not in america. we dont live THAT MUCH longer because of miraculous treatments or even vaccines. we live longer because life is less demanding today. medicine takes the credit but fails to deliver the results.

Ever heard of psychological projection?
 
I'm a huge fan of EM and critical care podcasts. Two of my favorite podcasters are Scott Weingarten and the guy who does ICU rounds. They discuss things like colloids, acid-base chemistry, intubation sequences, etc. I hadn't thought about it before now, but is that what makes good intensivists? Keepng their patients alive for as long as medically possible?

There's many different types of ICUs. The surgical ICUs either have relatively quick deaths or tend to have people on the road to recovery. The pediatric ICUs service everyone from post cardiac surgery patients to trauma victims, and most of them tend to survive (my month, we had four deaths, and it was a really, really bad month). The medical ICU, though, tends to get those who are constantly on the verge of death. Occasionally, you'll get someone who just got really unlucky and has a bad pneumonia or something, but generally, it's not a good place to recover.

In my experience, the good intensivists are those who are able to perform those life saving measures, but also those who set realistic expectations for the family and help guide them through the process.
 
I think it's a compound problem.

(1) People don't have end of life discussions prior to being at the end of life. This includes family initiating conversation within family and PCP's failing to initiate the conversation with their patients as part of routine care.

(2) I think there are plenty of doctors that see death as a negative outcome or a failure. People die, and recognizing when that is the overwhelmingly likely scenario and shifting care to focus on palliation has to take place.

(3) Doctors don't like delivering bad news. I've seen research somewhere or other that physicians, by quite a large amount, fail to deliver accurate information to patients related to their prognosis - they routinely air on the side of things look better than they are.

(4) We've advanced drastically technologically, with two adverse sequelae.
(A) We've blurred the line of what death is. We have debates now about cardiopulmonary death vs brain death with tons of intricacies (as far as brain death anyway).
(B) People have gained an unrealistic notion of what medicine can accomplish for them
 
I don't know what you guys are talking about! ICU is great!

Personally I love it when a float/weekend/holiday/whatever new critical care attending comes onto the service, changes everybody to DNR, and then two days later the old attending who happens to be an insert_religious_belief here comes back and changes everybody back to full code! Is there a family member with power of attorney? Nobody knows!

Every code is so much fun and excitement, it's like russian DNR roulette! Who's on call today? Nobody knows until it's too late!

On the plus side, only five more years of being blamed for or yelled at for **** I had nothing to do with! Alright! High five, team.
 
haha i found out i start my intern year on ICU..
 
I guess I have a hard time, even in the current paradigm of families being the ultimate decisionmakers, with how wishy-washy it seems like we feel like we have to be in discussing the matter of death and coding and aggressive measures. Even when everyone in the team room is 100% agreed that no code, comfort measures only is the medically and ethically most appropriate approach, we ask the family what they think without ever telling them clearly "we think this is wrong and not helpful and our medical opinion is that we should treat your loved one with comfort care and loving presence and let them pass in peace, can you agree to that?" We can make a direct recommendation and request consent clearly when it comes to a surgery or a transfusion...why must we make this difficult for families by failing to offer a clear and unequivocal recommendation when it comes to the end of life? Why do we have to put a burden on them in this situation to tell us what to do without the directive guidance that we offer in almost any other medical or surgical situation? It seems unfair to them. And we're all going to die. It's not optional.

But, you're making it sound like the mortality rate in the ICU is 100%.
Have you seen anyone recover completely from the ICU yet? If so, the work must be worth at least those patients' lives.
 
People do recover. In fact you're hospital will have all the mortality numbers for your ICU but it's not about the numbers for us, that's an administration thing.

I think communication is the big thing. I ALWAYS communicate with all the family involved and am up front and honest, that's my job. When I get the question "what if it were your (fill in the blank)?" You have to be honest. And if you wouldn't for your family, be prepared to answer why. They are ultimately responsible for the decision as long as you've explained all the angles. THEN our job is to follow their wishes at whatever cost.
 
Sure, for people who can go on and recover and enjoy some more life, I'm happy for them and it is worth it. But sometimes there is no miracle coming. For the demented non-transplantable end-stage cirrhotic with massive aspiration pneumonia, nothing I can solve for them in the ICU is ultimately worth it, I don't think. I could maybe get them back to being a demented bedbound terminal cirrhotic who isn't allowed to eat or drink, if I am lucky, but probably not. Those are the cases that distress me...people who are in the middle of dying and will continue to be dying no matter what we do, but we can't stop doing painful, invasive, expensive, disgusting things to them until well after the bitter end and the CPR pneumothorax.

And due to the place where I am, no, I don't see people make a complete recovery. Not ever, yet. It's the VA. Everyone is old and with multiple comorbidities and usually irreversible severe failure of one or more vital organ systems in addition to their acute crisis. I've seen people get off medical stepdown more or less unscathed to go back to their previous QOL, but MICU, no. Maybe a coupe guys who needed high-dose benzo drips for the DTs. My experience is far from vast, though.
 
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Great post by the SDN legend:


Dawn of the Dead
November 24, 2006

Loaves and Fishes

The body of Mr. Dubois recedes into the shadows as the nurse turns down the lights. His family wants some time with him before he is taken wherever it is we take the bodies of those who finally exhaust our ability to reanimate them. Mr. Dubois did not go quickly or easily. His death has spanned months, if not years. The massive stroke which finally finished him off was just the last in a series of insults, all of which steadily whittled away at his intellect, his quality of life, but never the conviction of his family that he needed to be kept alive at all costs.

The details of Mr. Dubois' decline are familiar to anyone who has worked in an intensive care unit. Already in poor health from numerous chronic medical problems as well as mildly demented, he suffered a minor stroke and became bed-ridden. His wife, in poor health herself, was unable to transfer him from his bed to a bedside commode and his children eventually moved him to a nursing home where, with the exception of dialysis three times a week, he spent his days laying in his own urine. Over the course of a year he made several visits to the ICU where he was treated for pneumonia and sepsis, urinary tract infection and sepsis, sacral decubitus ulcers and sepsis, and finally a COPD exacerbation with pneumonia and sepsis. This lead to the final, massive stroke which should have finished him off except that after years of neglect, his family was still not ready to let him go.

They were perfectly willing to park him in a nursing home, you understand, as long as they didn't have to think about him. I'm sure they visited even if the visits eventually tapered off to a hurried fifteen minutes every other week, visits more to demonstrate that they still cared than to look after Mr. Dubois who lay in his bed literally rotting away both mentally and physically.

At the end the family didn't want Mr. Dubois to suffer, at least not while they were around. I'm sure they didn't lose sleep over the suffering he endured as an immobile piece of bodily-fluid producing meat in his fly-blown nursing home. But in the hospital, with the doctor and skilled ICU nurses it was all sanctimony and reverence.

The contracted, slack-jawed body of Mr. Dubois continued its leisurely spiral towards death as we used every expensive weapon in our arsenal and spent tens of thousands of somebody else's dollars in our absolutely inexplicable desire to play along with the family's delusions.

The family's delusions, like most, grew in isolation of the basic facts. I suppose if his family had taken care of him at their home as was the case for almost all of human history the story might be different. If they were the ones cleaning his bowel movements, spooning soft food into his mouth, or living with the rotten smell of ulcerating bed sores, one of which had eroded down to his sacral bones, they might have been relieved at his death, both for their own sake and his.

Nor did they give a thought to the cost of his many hospital stays, the total amount of which is almost impossible to calculate. Somebody else will pay, they always do. He's paid taxes his whole life, goes the mantra, so let Medicare handle it despite the fact that one week in the ICU probably ate Mr. Dubois' entire lifetime contribution to the system.

A day in the ICU costs several thousand dollars with only a minimal level of care. Then there are the many paid specialists continually consulted to tell us what we already know, namely that Mr. Dubois is dying. The nephrologists shakes his head sorrowfully over his kidneys. The cardiologist writes notes and orders expensive studies which reveal that his heart is bad. The gastroenterologist fails to discover the source of his frequent melanotic stools and the hematologist advises that even though his leukemia is going to kill him in a few weeks (guaranteed) we should go ahead and transfuse four units.

The vascular surgeon, the only realist in the bunch, when consulted for a possible repair of Mr. Dubois' dangerously bulging abdominal aortic aneurysm says, "Are you ****ing kidding me?"

Too bad he can't write that in his consult note. The dry precision of medical prose gives the illusion that we are in control of Mr. Dubois and could turn him around with a little coordination between the medical specialties. The family certainly buys into this notion. Aren't all of his medical problems being managed? Don't doctors have all the answers with their extensive education and big words? Surely all of those monitors, pumps, and flashing lights must be doing something. We're not asking for loaves and fishes here, doc. Just keep his heart beating.

So that's what we do. In the end all we are really doing is giving the house staff valuable experience running ACLS codes. We get a carotid pulse back and beam with pleasure at the good thing we have done despite the fact that it is taking three different pressors to keep his blood pressure compatible with life and to remove any one of them will be the end of Mr. Dubois. What we've really done is paint ourselves into a corner. He is never coming off the pressors. In about a day, if he lives that long, Mr. Dubois' toes and fingers are going to start rotting off.

Perhaps then we can withdraw support, if it's all right with the family that is.

http://www.pandabearmd.com/2006/11/24/dawn-of-the-dead/
 
People do recover. In fact you're hospital will have all the mortality numbers for your ICU but it's not about the numbers for us, that's an administration thing.

I think communication is the big thing. I ALWAYS communicate with all the family involved and am up front and honest, that's my job. When I get the question "what if it were your (fill in the blank)?" You have to be honest. And if you wouldn't for your family, be prepared to answer why. They are ultimately responsible for the decision as long as you've explained all the angles. THEN our job is to follow their wishes at whatever cost.

Very much agreed.
 
I'm a huge fan of EM and critical care podcasts. Two of my favorite podcasters are Scott Weingarten and the guy who does ICU rounds. They discuss things like colloids, acid-base chemistry, intubation sequences, etc. I hadn't thought about it before now, but is that what makes good intensivists? Keepng their patients alive for as long as medically possible?

A good intensivist is made by being adept at not only keeping people alive but allowing the families to let them die. It is a victory when you can make someone in the MICU (or CCU) DNR.

When I talk to patients I try to paint a pretty bleak picture. If they're in our ICU, they're sick, much sicker than most ICUs. I tell them that it is likely their family member will die. In our ICU 25-30% of people die no matter what we do.

The absolute most important thing I do when I talk to the patient's family is paint a realistic view of what a code is. People think that like on ER/Gray's Anatomy, you just put on the pads and shock them and suddenly they're back and talking. I tell them that unlike TV, when someone is sick enough to lose a pulse (especially in the MICU where it is usually PEA), 90% of people die. Even if they live, 1.7% have a favorable neurologic outcome at discharge. What's worse is that to actually get a pulse back we invariably shatter somneones ribs and the shocks feel like being kicked in the chest by a donkey. It is incredibly painful to the patient and unpleasant to be a part of. It is a victory when you get someone to be DNR in the ICU.

The families need to feel that they're not killing the patient by making them DNR. I stress that making them DNR is unlikely going to change the outcome one bit. It also doesn't change the treatment plan. Losing a pulse is the sign that we lost the battle. If the patient codes, they are probably going to die no matter what we do. No reason to put the patient (or the family) through tortment of a 45 minute code, Just let them go.
 

Great, great article. When I go on my ICU rotations as a M4 and PGY-1, I will try my hardest to put patients who are not going to survive the ICU on the vaunted DNR list. I think talking to families and letting them know that you are leaning towards DNR due to their medical co-morbidities and inability to recover at 85 from heart, liver, and kidney failure, is one of the best ways to help patients pass on with dignity.
 
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