All Branch Topic (ABT) Drawdown and physicians.

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sonofva

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Title pretty much says it! Haha. As someone just about to start a military career in June, I'd like to see if I could get an estimation of how the drawdown will play into my day to day and long term career. Thanks!
 
I'm curious about this, as well. From previous postings on this forum I've been led to believe it may not affect us much, at least directly. My understanding is that retention is pretty poor for physicians and this results in a culling of the numbers without the military having to intervene. Maybe there would be indirect effects that ripple through?
 
New folks will see a slight increase in competitiveness of the application process and decrease in incentives. Folks already in will see a decrease in special pay and incentives offered to stay in and will have to play a few more of the line games to continue moving up in rank. I doubt there will be any major changes.
 
Here's what I know/have heard (or both) so far (Army specific):

A panel recommendation to OTSG stated that the Army would save a lot of money by closing all inpatient facilities with fewer than 20 beds. For the Army, this includes about 9 hospitals. The facilities (for the most part) would remain open, but with no inpatient services (superclinics). For primary care, this means little in terms of stations, but could mean a great deal in terms of skill maintenence, unless you're allowed to moonlight. For subspecialists this could be a big game changer.

Facilities performing no surgery would, of course, lose surgical support. Facilities offering outpatient-surgery only would lose a significant amount of surgical support (and make skill maintenence more or less impossible). The combat this, the Army is investigating it's options with contractual agreements with civilian hospitals within range of each of these medical facilities. The idea is that a surgeon would see patients in the Army superclinic, and operate at the local civilian hospital, where they have inpatient and ICU support. In many cases, I think these agreements will happen if necessary. In theory, these agreements could allow Army primary care to see patients and admit patients at the local facility also, but I don't know if that is being pursued.

Keep in mind that the panel recommendations are just that: recommendations. OTSG has not made many final decisions at this point, although they are starting to trickle down the pipe. Even if they agreed to implement the entire scope of these changes, they would likely not be complete for at least 1-2 years. It is a slow process.
Worst case scenario: The Army chooses to eliminate inpatient services or close all of the hospitals (implement all recommendations). The number of Army hospitals offering surgical support would diminish significantly. The hospitals that still offer surgery would be required to absorb a massive number of surgeons from other locations. The Army has made no plans to decrease the number of incoming trainees. While retention is poor, this scenario creates quite a bottleneck in terms of case-loads and skill maintenence.

Best case scenario: The Army chooses not to implement any of these changes, or they implement the changes but the effected hospitals obtain ERSA agreements with local facilities, and nothing much changes.

Most likely scenario: Some hospitals close, some don't. Some surgeons move, some don't. The facilities that are required to absorb additional surgeons become overstaffed.

I have heard nothing about downsizing the physician pop in ADSO. That deam is so fragile, so delicate, that to even think it may cause it to shatter. It's like a cross between a rainbow and a unicorn that brews beer and grants wishes.
 
I wonder what impact seeing patients and operating at the local civilian hospital will have on moonlighting. It would really blur the line between when a .mil doc is on the government's dime as opposed to off the clock. I can easily see COs simply not permitting local ODE in an effort to avoid 'overlap'. Considering that many MTFs are rural with limited nearby civilian healthcare options, that could significantly affect someone's bottom line.
 
Sure would. Not for me, but that sort of thing is a part of the ERSA contract. The way I understand it, a lot of hospitals require the agreement of their civilian contract docs before they'll sign the paperwork. If you have the potential of eating some of their market, they may say no, which would bypass the situation entirely.

As we all know, you can't bill for tricare patients even when you're ODE, so working at the local hospital wouldn't change that. But the reverse (working as DOD not on ODE, and treating civilians) would be a weird situation.

For surgery, we would only operate on United Healthcare/Tricare patients, and only admit those patients. That's probably how they would treat hospitalists, I guess. I imagine you could set up some kind of insane situation in which there is a dichotomous hospitalist staff: DOD handling their folks, and the civilian guys handling their own.



Like most Army adventures, it's a CF.
 
I suspect we'll see new interest in partnering more with a local VA first, because it should, in general, avoid the TRICARE beneficiary and state licensing issues.
 
That sure beats Oak Harbor patients driving down to Madigan. I always felt bad for those guys.
 
Here's what I know/have heard (or both) so far (Army specific):

A panel recommendation to OTSG stated that the Army would save a lot of money by closing all inpatient facilities with fewer than 20 beds. For the Army, this includes about 9 hospitals. The facilities (for the most part) would remain open, but with no inpatient services (superclinics). For primary care, this means little in terms of stations, but could mean a great deal in terms of skill maintenence, unless you're allowed to moonlight. For subspecialists this could be a big game changer.

Facilities performing no surgery would, of course, lose surgical support. Facilities offering outpatient-surgery only would lose a significant amount of surgical support (and make skill maintenence more or less impossible). The combat this, the Army is investigating it's options with contractual agreements with civilian hospitals within range of each of these medical facilities. The idea is that a surgeon would see patients in the Army superclinic, and operate at the local civilian hospital, where they have inpatient and ICU support. In many cases, I think these agreements will happen if necessary. In theory, these agreements could allow Army primary care to see patients and admit patients at the local facility also, but I don't know if that is being pursued.

Keep in mind that the panel recommendations are just that: recommendations. OTSG has not made many final decisions at this point, although they are starting to trickle down the pipe. Even if they agreed to implement the entire scope of these changes, they would likely not be complete for at least 1-2 years. It is a slow process.
Worst case scenario: The Army chooses to eliminate inpatient services or close all of the hospitals (implement all recommendations). The number of Army hospitals offering surgical support would diminish significantly. The hospitals that still offer surgery would be required to absorb a massive number of surgeons from other locations. The Army has made no plans to decrease the number of incoming trainees. While retention is poor, this scenario creates quite a bottleneck in terms of case-loads and skill maintenence.

Best case scenario: The Army chooses not to implement any of these changes, or they implement the changes but the effected hospitals obtain ERSA agreements with local facilities, and nothing much changes.

Most likely scenario: Some hospitals close, some don't. Some surgeons move, some don't. The facilities that are required to absorb additional surgeons become overstaffed.

I have heard nothing about downsizing the physician pop in ADSO. That deam is so fragile, so delicate, that to even think it may cause it to shatter. It's like a cross between a rainbow and a unicorn that brews beer and grants wishes.

I am at one of those <20 bed army hospitals. OR utilization hovers around 55-60% daily. We deliver 600 babies/yr. The two civilian tricare network hospitals within 30 minute drive cannot absorb our workload, and the closest has a general surgeon on call only 2 weeks per month. Yet our surgeons are getting emails from consultant, asking where they want to go next summer when we are converted to clinic status. We are losing 15 active duty RNs this summer to PCS and only 3 are coming in. Losing 2 of 3 general surgeons to retirement or PCS. ... no replacements coming. Hmmmm. Yet we hear nothing official from OTSG.
 
I am at one of those <20 bed army hospitals. OR utilization hovers around 55-60% daily. We deliver 600 babies/yr. The two civilian tricare network hospitals within 30 minute drive cannot absorb our workload, and the closest has a general surgeon on call only 2 weeks per month. Yet our surgeons are getting emails from consultant, asking where they want to go next summer when we are converted to clinic status. We are losing 15 active duty RNs this summer to PCS and only 3 are coming in. Losing 2 of 3 general surgeons to retirement or PCS. ... no replacements coming. Hmmmm. Yet we hear nothing official from OTSG.
Yeah, we're getting the same run around. Our utilization is high, more like 70-80%, and the local hospitals want us, all of which is nice, but it would be nicer still to actually have an answer. Our command has decided that no answer means no decision, and so we should continue to operate as if nothing will happen (with blinders on).....clearly the best option. You know what I always say, expect the best and prepare for the best, and if that doesn't happen go down in flames.
 
Yeah, we're getting the same run around. Our utilization is high, more like 70-80%, and the local hospitals want us, all of which is nice, but it would be nicer still to actually have an answer. Our command has decided that no answer means no decision, and so we should continue to operate as if nothing will happen (with blinders on).....clearly the best option. You know what I always say, expect the best and prepare for the best, and if that doesn't happen go down in flames.

Some civilian providers (MD, DO, PA, NP) are not getting their annual 25% retention bonus renewed by the command.
 
http://www.whidbeynewstimes.com/news/236815371.html?mobile=true

This partnership with civilian hospitals for surgery has already started (or the beginnings of implementation has anyway) in the Navy at Naval Hospital Oak Harbor.

It's worth pointing out that this article is completely inaccurate in regard to "expanding services" They are outsourcing surgery, cutting their Urgent Care, and the only inpatient will now by a birthing center. The enrollment has gone up and now primary care physicians are mandated to work late evening clinics and clinics on the weekends.
 
That's how they're trying to sell it here as well. You gotta make it look good on the OER. "I didn't gut our hospital system, I "expanded services."

My favorite thing about advancement in the military. No ones cares or even checks to see if what you did was a good thing. All that matters is that you have check marks next to all of your stated goals.
 
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I think I'll put down "eliminated Diabetes on post," them I'll just march through AHLTA A-Z, deleting diagnoses. Suck on that Wilfred Brimley, I deserve a below the line!
 
on the army side, for the next few years the authorized end strength of the medical corps actually *increases* rather than decreases. reason being, we were told, was that there will be an increased need due to ETSing soldiers. whether this is true or not who knows, but the numbers don't look like they will be making active cuts anytime soon.

the readiness vs complete care debate is real, and the "planet" diagram they have showing the amount the DoD spends on out of house medical care is the largest expenditure in the budget, which is rising at an unsustainable rate. small hospitals need to be closed, but who will take over the care at those crappy locations? if you have a major basic training base, is it ok to have the nearest ER a 40 minute plus drive away? many times there is an off post medical network that is already sucking off the base, and with enough warning i'm sure these places would be more than happy to absorb the business. but the inpatient side, specifically OB and newborn care, is the only way many of these small hospitals stay afloat and this can't be done in an outpatient center.

if we shift to a unified medical command (which has been recommended for decades by the budget office) and go to readiness only care (active duty only) and jettison the dependent care and everything that goes along with it (GME, research) a huge chunk of money will be potentially saved-- but only if this care that is transferred to the civilian sector is cheaper. i don't think the higher ups understand (for better or worse) how much money we could actually *save* if given the resources-- i.e., the spend money to save money scenario. if we recaptured everything we are hemorrhaging to the network that huge out of house care bubble would shrink dramatically. i agree with the DoD healthcare ops guy when he says he won't pay for the same care twice-- if we offer something in house, why pay for that *plus* out of house care? choose one or the other and stick with it and see what happens.

bottom line for us docs is no one knows what directions things will go. given past experiences, it will likely not be an either/or solution, and will likely be a chimeric hybrid brundlefly mess due to the number of people, fiefdoms, and billions of dollars involved. i would not bank on early separations or early retirements for doctors unless a powerful charismatic no bull**** person takes over and forces it to happen.

--your friendly neighborhood just leave me alone and let me work caveman
 
on the army side, for the next few years the authorized end strength of the medical corps actually *increases* rather than decreases. reason being, we were told, was that there will be an increased need due to ETSing soldiers. whether this is true or not who knows, but the numbers don't look like they will be making active cuts anytime soon.

the readiness vs complete care debate is real, and the "planet" diagram they have showing the amount the DoD spends on out of house medical care is the largest expenditure in the budget, which is rising at an unsustainable rate. small hospitals need to be closed, but who will take over the care at those crappy locations? if you have a major basic training base, is it ok to have the nearest ER a 40 minute plus drive away? many times there is an off post medical network that is already sucking off the base, and with enough warning i'm sure these places would be more than happy to absorb the business. but the inpatient side, specifically OB and newborn care, is the only way many of these small hospitals stay afloat and this can't be done in an outpatient center.

if we shift to a unified medical command (which has been recommended for decades by the budget office) and go to readiness only care (active duty only) and jettison the dependent care and everything that goes along with it (GME, research) a huge chunk of money will be potentially saved-- but only if this care that is transferred to the civilian sector is cheaper. i don't think the higher ups understand (for better or worse) how much money we could actually *save* if given the resources-- i.e., the spend money to save money scenario. if we recaptured everything we are hemorrhaging to the network that huge out of house care bubble would shrink dramatically. i agree with the DoD healthcare ops guy when he says he won't pay for the same care twice-- if we offer something in house, why pay for that *plus* out of house care? choose one or the other and stick with it and see what happens.

bottom line for us docs is no one knows what directions things will go. given past experiences, it will likely not be an either/or solution, and will likely be a chimeric hybrid brundlefly mess due to the number of people, fiefdoms, and billions of dollars involved. i would not bank on early separations or early retirements for doctors unless a powerful charismatic no bullcrap person takes over and forces it to happen.

--your friendly neighborhood just leave me alone and let me work caveman


I agree with everything you said. Except I know which way I'm going…… FREEDOM!!
 
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