DrNP and ND programs

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
Status
Not open for further replies.
shamman must be confused by the real psychiatric component of fibromyalgia then again he has a delusion that his chanting and the use of various herbs cures psychiatric conditions associated with fibromyalgia

hey shamman you never mentioned what you are getting your PhD in???

Shamans were the first mind-body practitioners and I might add, still seem to be ahead of most everyone else. For the record, I don't use herbs. I just knocked a headache out of a kid in less than 30 seconds...painkillers would take too long.

I have two masters; why would I want a Ph.D.? This guy has one though;

William Lyons "We stand at the threshold of a revolution in thinking that transcends anything that has happened in 1,000 years. Now the observer, consciousness, something self-like or mind-like, becomes a provable part of a richer reality than physics or any science has ever dared to envision.

Why hasn't this incredible discovery reached the front cover of Time magazine? Give it a couple of decades. We have yet to figure out how to handle it.

Nevertheless, this means that shamanism finally has an explanation based in modern physics. Shamans can effect change in local reality through spirit helpers working at the quantum level. This is achieved through their ritual action, in which the shaman's consciousness, in an altered state of being, is intently focused on a singular objective. For example, "Take this cancer out of this sick person."

What we blandly refer to as "ritual rules," are actually quantum mechanics rules. That is, native ceremonial behavior is exactly what is needed to change reality via the observer effect. For example, shamanic rituals are extremely repetitive over long periods of time. This is because they are trying to effect the probability waves that bring reality into time and space in the first place. Waves are repetitive, and so are the waves of consciousness generated in a shamanic ritual.

Once you understand these new findings of physics, what shamans do in ceremony appears rational."😉
 
Shamans were the first mind-body practitioners and I might add, still seem to be ahead of most everyone else. For the record, I don't use herbs. I just knocked a headache out of a kid in less than 30 seconds...painkillers would take too long.

I have two masters; why would I want a Ph.D.? This guy has one though;

William Lyons "We stand at the threshold of a revolution in thinking that transcends anything that has happened in 1,000 years. Now the observer, consciousness, something self-like or mind-like, becomes a provable part of a richer reality than physics or any science has ever dared to envision.

Why hasn't this incredible discovery reached the front cover of Time magazine? Give it a couple of decades. We have yet to figure out how to handle it.


what a bunch of crap!!!! Where is one study, one piece of evidence that could possibly support this position. It is laughable that this would even be posited. So if mumbling a few words fixes headaches in 30 seconds lets enroll a 1000 patients and we could randomize them - one receives the SHAM treatment and the other receives actual medical care. what do you think? :laugh::laugh::laugh:
 
what a bunch of crap!!!! Where is one study, one piece of evidence that could possibly support this position. It is laughable that this would even be posited. So if mumbling a few words fixes headaches in 30 seconds lets enroll a 1000 patients and we could randomize them - one receives the SHAM treatment and the other receives actual medical care. what do you think? :laugh::laugh::laugh:

I used a point on the kid's finger to take care of her headache and have done so many times. Don't need a study to tell me that that it is scientifically supported. Don't need one to tell me that love exists either.

You might find this funny...as I do. The doctor I work with is about to catch on. Now she asks people coming in the office, "Are you here to see Randy or me?" She's jealous of my client load...but then my clients value experience over double blinded studies.

Another FYI:

"Here I was living in Boston, the mecca of Western medicine in the United States, and after going to 11 different orthopedic specialists, I couldn't find one who could help me." Leslie Gray, Ph.D.

On the recommendation of a Native American friend, Gray visited a Cherokee medicine man living in the Smoky Mountains. Not only did she obtain considerable relief from pain, but she also found herself face to face with an extremely powerful practitioner of shamanism. Impressed by the results of his healing work, she began to spend time with him and other shamans to learn firsthand about their ancient art. Her interest in academic work began to wane as her fascination with shamanism grew." http://www.woodfish.org/bridge.html

Maybe you need to schedule some quality experiental time with some shaman??😀
 
oldmando, you might like this ...but probably not😀

SCIENCE: A GOOD SERVANT BUT A POOR MASTER
by David Bruce Leonard

One of the dilemmas we face as practitioners in the West is the urgent and pervasive pressure to scientifically validate a system of medicine that is, by its nature, unscientific.

Science is exclusive, it seeks to eliminate variables in order to ascertain the nature of reality. In science, the more variables you eliminate, the closer you get to the "truth". This is the great strength and the great weakness of scientific medicine.

Chinese medicine, as it arises from Chinese culture, is inclusive. It seeks to assimilate variables in order to ascertain the nature of reality. In Chinese medicine, the more variables you assimilate, the closer you get to the "truth". This is the great strength and the great weakness of Chinese medicine.

The tendency of scientific medicine is to refine its focus on smaller and smaller units, to eventually find that one-damned-molecule that's screwing up the works. Chinese medicine is not as concerned with that molecule as it is with the tissue and organ system. Not just the organ system nor even the person, but also the family, the climate, the earth and the heavens.

Western medicine has a difficult time seeing the forest for the trees. Chinese medicine has a difficult time seeing the trees for the forest.

But, here is the rub: we are not "scientific" creatures. We are mammals; some say we are just smart monkeys. We have 500,000 years of non-logical, tribal behavior in our genes and less than 500 years of science in our jeans. We are tribal creatures, first and foremost.

All tribes have remarkably similar structures, and within those structures each member fulfills a certain role. These roles have evolved as survival mechanisms over hundreds of thousands of years. For us as practitioners, our role is that of the "shaman". In a significant, primal, and irrational way, a medical practitioner is a modern day shaman. On an unconscious level, that stethoscope or moxa stick is a rattle. Diagnosis is divination. This is why we expect our physicians to be emotionally invested in our lives, but we don't expect the same from our auto mechanics or plumbers. These are tribal relationships.

Because of the nature of reductionist thinking, scientific medicine fares poorly in the "shaman" arena. Science deals with the quantification and elimination of variables. A huge portion of the information a patient gives to a practitioner cannot be quantified. Without quantification science cannot eliminate variables. If one is truly practicing "scientific" medicine, then anything not quantifiable is irrelevant. This is the problem with eliminating variables in medicine: when we're done we may have factored our own patients right out of the process.

According to an August 2003 Johns Hopkins press release physicians are now using robots to interact with their patients. In many ways this is the logical next step of scientific medicine... to eliminate those messy humans from the process entirely.

Some of you are undoubtedly thinking: David, can you prove this? Can you prove that we function as shamans? Can you prove we are "smart monkeys?"
No.
Then how do you know this is so?
Because I can see it.

Many practitioners look to the research journals to see how their patients are doing. This is a mistake. Of course research is important, even vital. But we are not researchers: we are clinicians. We don't need statistics or the approval of our peers to determine how we are doing as practitioners... we can ask our patients.

As clinicians, can we prove that it was our treatment that resolved this-or-that condition?
No.
Then how do we know?
Because we can see it. We look to our patients for those answers.

While writing this article I searched for "scientific" evidence that I could cite showing that patients do not feel heard by many physicians. I found a number of studies [Marvel 1999., etc., etc., etc.] and then I laughed at myself. Of course I know that patients don't feel heard by physicians. I've been a patient and know what it feels like. The underlying assumptions of a "scientific" society are so powerful and pervasive that we rarely question them.

Believe it or not, up until the late 1980's, scientific medicine was still uncertain as to whether or not newborn infants feel pain. I am not joking about this. Ever vigilant in pursuit of truth, scientists conducted studies and double blind clinical trials to prove what any mother knows. We quote here from a few of many studies.

"Using routine, unanesthetized circumcision as a model of stress, we were able to examine the relation between cry acoustics and vagal tone in normal, healthy newborns undergoing an acutely stressful event." [Porter et al., 1988. Newborn pain cries and vagal tone: parallel changes in response to circumcision. Child Dev. 1988 Apr; 59(2):495-505]

"The results showed that although most anaesthetists in the survey believe that even neonates feel pain, they are reluctant to prescribe analgesia." [Purcell-Jones G.et al., 1988 . Paediatric anaesthetists' perceptions of neonatal and infant pain. Pain. 33(2):181-7]

"The most invasive procedures elicited significantly longer crying bouts; shorter quiet intervals; shorter, more frequent vocalizations; higher peak fundamental frequencies; fewer harmonics; and greater variability of the fundamental. Cries elicited by the most intrusive procedures were judged by adult listeners to be the most urgent...." [Porter FL et al., 1986. Neonatal pain cries: effect of circumcision on acoustic features and perceived urgency. Child Dev. 57(3):790-802]

Any medicine that is capable of overlooking the pain of a newborn child is missing something vital about our humanness.

Let's face it; we don't need double-blind-placebo-controlled-crossover-studies to tell us that we should love our children or that we should be kind to our patients. That a forest has beauty beyond its "resources" and should not be clear-cut does not require proof.

Have you ever been in a hospital? There is a kind of madness there. That love, fresh food, and a beautiful environment will help us heal is obvious to anyone whose world is not fractured into pieces.

This depersonalized nature of scientific medicine is a direct result of putting humanity at the service of science rather than putting science at the service of our humanity.

To put science before our humanness, I feel, would be unscientific.
 
oldmando, you might like this ...but probably not😀

so the obvious is obvious. big deal most people would note that the sun has risen. When it comes to medicine - little bugs tend to rule the day and you shaking a stick or mumbling words will do nothing for that septic patient. Now, do some patients emotionally react to discomfort that might be "treated" by some other intervention such as talking, listening, making the patient feel like their situation is real and thus reducing the discomfort, sure. But no amount of mumbling is going to get grandpa off the ventilator. Shamanism is not medicine just over priced therapy.

there is no quantum mechanics associated with your repetitious mumbling that effects change on the person or universe, regardless of how many nut job physicist you present with "scientific studies", you do not heal or cure anything that has an actual medical diagnosis - psychiatric dx excluded. So keep quoting zenman - your not convincing me. 😴😴😴
 
Zenman,

I must admit, your comments and quotes are underwhelming. I'm surprised! You present this piece of writing by David Leonard that expressed his philosophy on healing and positions his thoughts in such a way that he quantitatively - attempts to eliminate any "variables" that could provide argument to the Shaman healing philosophy. Essentially, he's trying to create a literary quagmire; which, is very appealing to those who are most vulnerable.....Further, it appears that Mr. Leonard is a very assuming person -
The highlights of the paper:

1. His explanation on "tribal relationships":
2. Short sited views on western medicine - exclusive vs. inclusive...clearly insensitive to thorough and complete literature review, Meta analysis, anecdotal evidence, and subjectivity in medicine. Physicians and scientists learn from seeing, experience things that cannot be taught in school or through studies
3. Perhaps the most intriguing piece of the writing you shared thus far: we don't need double-blind-placebo-controlled-crossover-studies to tell us that we should love our children or that we should be kind to our patients.[/B]


Further, the "black and white" logic of this person is truly maniacal

"putting humanity at the service of science rather than putting science at the service of our humanity ."

Science and humanity serve each other!

Just my immediate observations – Definitely not science…..Best, L
 
oldmando, you might like this ...but probably not😀

so the obvious is obvious. big deal most people would note that the sun has risen. When it comes to medicine - little bugs tend to rule the day and you shaking a stick or mumbling words will do nothing for that septic patient. Now, do some patients emotionally react to discomfort that might be "treated" by some other intervention such as talking, listening, making the patient feel like their situation is real and thus reducing the discomfort, sure. But no amount of mumbling is going to get grandpa off the ventilator. Shamanism is not medicine just over priced therapy.

there is no quantum mechanics associated with your repetitious mumbling that effects change on the person or universe, regardless of how many nut job physicist you present with "scientific studies", you do not heal or cure anything that has an actual medical diagnosis - psychiatric dx excluded. So keep quoting zenman - your not convincing me. 😴😴😴

I hope never to step foot in a hospital again...for any reason. But physical problems are probably the main complaints in people I see...but the emotional aspect is always there, even if it's frustration. Physician Lewis Mehl-Madrona, in one of his books, talks about a septic patient whom he had done all he could for, suddenly sit up in bed, and then go home, after he called in an Indian medicine man.

I realize no number of qualified physicists would change your view...it's your views. You shouldn't believe anything from any expert in any field, should you...including your own.😀
 
Zenman,

I must admit, your comments and quotes are underwhelming. I'm surprised! You present this piece of writing by David Leonard that expressed his philosophy on healing and positions his thoughts in such a way that he quantitatively - attempts to eliminate any "variables" that could provide argument to the Shaman healing philosophy.

It was just some reading for your pleasure and a break from that other suff you have to read. Here's some more:

Professor argues that shamanism is the original neurotheology.

http://www.cognitiveliberty.org/neuro/winkelman1.htm


You might like this also:

http://homepages.hawaiian.net/larryw/html/shaman.html
 
It was just some reading for your pleasure and a break from that other suff you have to read. Here's some more:

Professor argues that shamanism is the original neurotheology.

http://www.cognitiveliberty.org/neuro/winkelman1.htm


You might like this also:

http://homepages.hawaiian.net/larryw/html/shaman.html

that was a waste of 10 minutes - you have obviously remained in an altered state (AKA delusional thinking) and have lost touch with reality.

Shamman != medicine
SHAMMAN = fleecing Darwinian drop outs

please skip the interesting articles and stick to arguing your case it is so much more entertaining and laughable
 
Nevertheless, this means that shamanism finally has an explanation based in modern physics. Shamans can effect change in local reality through spirit helpers working at the quantum level. This is achieved through their ritual action, in which the shaman's consciousness, in an altered state of being, is intently focused on a singular objective. For example, "Take this cancer out of this sick person."

What we blandly refer to as "ritual rules," are actually quantum mechanics rules. That is, native ceremonial behavior is exactly what is needed to change reality via the observer effect. For example, shamanic rituals are extremely repetitive over long periods of time. This is because they are trying to effect the probability waves that bring reality into time and space in the first place. Waves are repetitive, and so are the waves of consciousness generated in a shamanic ritual.

Once you understand these new findings of physics, what shamans do in ceremony appears rational."😉


Ugh, psuedoscience makes me sick.
 
Since you seem to know so much about quantum mechanics, maybe you can help me:

A particle is constrained to move within a 2d-ring of radius r. What is the wavefunction of this particle?

The hamiltonian for the system is just the 2d-laplacian, since there is no potential field. So you get (P=wavefunction) C*(Pxx+Pyy)=E*P. I cant seem to integrate this however. Could you tell me the probability function for this particle?
 
Since you seem to know so much about quantum mechanics, maybe you can help me:

A particle is constrained to move within a 2d-ring of radius r. What is the wavefunction of this particle?

The hamiltonian for the system is just the 2d-laplacian, since there is no potential field. So you get (P=wavefunction) C*(Pxx+Pyy)=E*P. I cant seem to integrate this however. Could you tell me the probability function for this particle?

Might be easier if you switched to polar coordinates. Another way at it is through linear algebra if you set up correctly.

Or find a shaman master who can use his/her mind, spirit, and hands to influence the probability field of the particle (or just normalize it so that the answer is one) :meanie:
 
Might be easier if you switched to polar coordinates. Another way at it is through linear algebra if you set up correctly.

Oh, it would certainly be easier in polar coordinates, but either way, its a differential equation that needs solving. And the solution is actually fairly intuitive, although I would be hard pressed to write down the equation by intuition.


Ill even give the shaman a hint: The solution is an equation named after a mathematician.
 
please skip the interesting articles and stick to arguing your case it is so much more entertaining and laughable

Are you still laughing or have you figured out yet why your patients are seeking out "alternative" practitioners?🙂
 
And the solution is actually fairly intuitive, although I would be hard pressed to write down the equation by intuition.

Last Thursday, the doc I work with was going to ice a kid's wrist and send him home after he fell on it. She asked me to look at him and my intuition immediately told me it was broken. My finely developed sense of detecting energy really confirmed my original "hunch." So the doc sent him off for xrays and I signed the little dude's cast today.

Develop your senses, fellow. Or perhaps you one of those guys who's feet have never left the concrete.
 
Or find a shaman master who can use his/her mind, spirit, and hands to influence the probability field of the particle (or just normalize it so that the answer is one) :meanie:

That's easy and elementary, dear Watson. No, I do not have a Ph.D. in physics...I can just ask one of them that is studying shamanism with me. One has told me personally that she will be writing articles/book explaining it to dense (get it?) fellows like you.
 
Perhaps you should have logged more psychology hours. Then you wouldn't be so far behind...or so sick!

I have plenty of psych hours. That is why I attribute shamanism to the placebo effect, much like I attribute homeopathy and exorcism.
 
I have plenty of psych hours. That is why I attribute shamanism to the placebo effect, much like I attribute homeopathy and exorcism.

Then if you're into the placebo effect, then you are aware that it's equal to or better than some meds or surgery. Cool isn't it, what the mind can do?🙂
 
I urge you to read the book "Fashionable Nonsense"
 
I urge you to read the book "Fashionable Nonsense"

After trying to wade through 74 reviews of the book on amazon, I think this book will not grace my shelves, especially after reading this one:

'Before I start, let me nail my colours to the mast: I'm pro-science, I'm pro-evolution, I really like the idea of rational enquiry and I'm a sceptic bordering on the cynical. I'm *not* some lentil-munching, kaftan-wearing, feng-shui-hugging hippie with airbrushed unicorns and a yin-yang sign on the side of my Kombi. Honestly.

Now we've got that cleared up, let me say it straight: This book takes on some big arguments, but, other than humorously swatting some flies, loses hands down. All it succeeds in doing is illustrating that there are fakers, losers, charlatans and wankers to be found in the Social Sciences departments of any given University."

However, I'm reminded of JAMA when they published an article by an acclaimed scientist who was six years old, whose mother was a skeptic and whose study actually had nothing to do with the subject they were writing about, which was therapeutic touch. Now, that was funny.
 
Blacksails,

I have had this discussion with the shamman many times - don't waste your time. He has this delusional idea that he can touch people and fix them with his super mind powers. I treated many a patient in the psych wards that had super mind powers :laugh::laugh: shamman maybe YOU need a consult

He loves to post links to nuts cases that support this psychotic thinking. You know all those doctors and physicist that have abandoned science and found all the answers in super quantum power force rays that are controlled by their magic glowing hands. Also all the women in this field are totally hot and muscular with swords in one hand and the glowy magic thing in the other - they all wear little fury barbarian suites and have long flowing hair - so hot!

He also knows for a FACT that physicians are jealous of his super powers and stand weeping at their clinic doors as throngs of patients line up to be treated by his super glowy hands.

In reality, he is a NURSE that is tired of working on the floors - it gets old. He will tell you in his 32 years (or how ever many..) of experience he has done it all. He has been in the service, worked in the ghetto (are we even allowed to call it the ghetto anymore??) and saved fury little bears and seals from the mean man hunters of the north. His experience is all encompassing and we "just don't get it" he can touch people and make them feel better!!!


Now you see I am on a psych rotation and the shamman looks like a case I may have read about even though he will post some link and probably threaten to change my quantum presence with his glowy hands - I wanted to warn you it is not worth your time. Try changing the air in your tires more interesting and less chance of quantum electron receptor mind enhancement (as posted by numerous physicist with stellar credentials) :laugh::laugh::laugh::meanie:
 
Actually, Zeman, you can really help me now with my organic chemistry problem set.


Methane is normally tetrahedreal. It has one sigma orbital, 3 degenerate pi orbitals, then 1 anti-sigma and 3 degenerate anti-pi. If we force methane to be planar, how does the molecular orbital configuration change?
 
Blacksails,

I have had this discussion with the shamman many times - don't waste your time. He has this delusional idea that he can touch people and fix them with his super mind powers. I treated many a patient in the psych wards that had super mind powers :laugh::laugh: shamman maybe YOU need a consult

Yesterday a lady came in with flank pain and I did a urinalysis (that renal/pulmonary physiology course comes in handy now) and found she had hematuria. My doctor sent her to a local hospital for labs. When she came back, and while talking to the doctor and standing beside me, I placed my hand on her back for a few minutes. When I saw her later in the day, she said, "What did you do? My pain is gone." If you have a mind to begin with, I can teach you to do the same in a few minutes. Then tell yourself you have super powers if you wish.

He loves to post links to nuts cases that support this psychotic thinking. You know all those doctors and physicist that have abandoned science and found all the answers in super quantum power force rays that are controlled by their magic glowing hands. Also all the women in this field are totally hot and muscular with swords in one hand and the glowy magic thing in the other - they all wear little fury barbarian suites and have long flowing hair - so hot!

And you think I'm delusional:laugh:

He also knows for a FACT that physicians are jealous of his super powers and stand weeping at their clinic doors as throngs of patients line up to be treated by his super glowy hands.

My physician is, I suspect. Also yesterday a guy came in with shoulder pain. My doctor (she made the mistake of calling me "her nurse" once) came over to watch me work on the guy and she's telling him about taking 800 mg of Ibuprofen. By the time she's through talking he doesn't need anything.

In reality, he is a NURSE that is tired of working on the floors - it gets old. He will tell you in his 32 years (or how ever many..) of experience he has done it all. He has been in the service, worked in the ghetto (are we even allowed to call it the ghetto anymore??) and saved fury little bears and seals from the mean man hunters of the north. His experience is all encompassing and we "just don't get it" he can touch people and make them feel better!!!

34 years but who's counting. I haven't done it all, but do have a lot of experience. I guess you missed some lectures about touch...if you were even offered any. Talk to your local body therapist.


Now you see I am on a psych rotation and the shamman looks like a case I may have read about even though he will post some link and probably threaten to change my quantum presence with his glowy hands - I wanted to warn you it is not worth your time. Try changing the air in your tires more interesting and less chance of quantum electron receptor mind enhancement (as posted by numerous physicist with stellar credentials) :laugh::laugh::laugh::meanie:

Glad you're on a psych rotation. I've also worked psych, and my nursing masters is in psych. That's why I understand why there are quiet a few psychiatrists and psychotherapists studying shamanism so they can help their patients...or so they say.

We can talk all day, but I can demo in front of you anytime.

Say, what do you recommend for a bright female senior who's a cutter and has now progressed to serious suicide attempts. She has run the gamut of therapists, psychiatrists, meds, in and out patient treatment, etc., etc.. Should I do a "soul retrieval" in about an hour and see why all this behavior suddenly started 5 years ago? Or do we just wait and continue with everyone wondering what to do next?
 
Actually, Zeman, you can really help me now with my organic chemistry problem set.


Methane is normally tetrahedreal. It has one sigma orbital, 3 degenerate pi orbitals, then 1 anti-sigma and 3 degenerate anti-pi. If we force methane to be planar, how does the molecular orbital configuration change?

Look it up as I don't care. I advise staying away from my fire ceremony though.🙂

I can run it by a chem guy but you probably don't want me to quote anyone.

"Methane has 4 sigma orbitals, no degenerate pi orbitals and is never flat. So, no I don't know the answer."
 
Say, what do you recommend for a bright female senior who's a cutter and has now progressed to serious suicide attempts. She has run the gamut of therapists, psychiatrists, meds, in and out patient treatment, etc., etc.. Should I do a "soul retrieval" in about an hour and see why all this behavior suddenly started 5 years ago? Or do we just wait and continue with everyone wondering what to do next?[/QUOTE]

is that even legal - you are so weird!!!!! all this touching - I for one would be uncomfortable with you groping on me or my patients. And as for the doctor calling you a nurse - DUDE wake up you are a nurse:laugh::laugh:

Are you a credentialed witch doctor and is there a licensing exam for such credentials - do you pull out a fake tumor or two, lay hands and proclaim someone is healed.

What reasonable medical practitioner (not some burnt out doctor who figures scamming patients is an easy buck) would allow you even in the same office. For one if you worked anywhere near me and proclaimed yourself as some Internet certified witch doctor and claimed to heal patients via groping - I would make sure that was the last time you did it. See you are a nurse and your responsibilities do not include drumming, chanting and fake a$$ medicine.

If you want to hang up a sign and take peoples money fine - just do it outside of the hospital/office
 
is that even legal - you are so weird!!!!! all this touching - I for one would be uncomfortable with you groping on me or my patients. And as for the doctor calling you a nurse - DUDE wake up you are a nurse:laugh::laugh:

Yes, I'm a nurse, but not "her nurse." She has realized her mistake. Now as for "groping" as you call it, I was trained in Zen Shiatsu at the Academy of Oriental Medicine in Austin (call them) and have passed the top exams possible in Asian Bodywork therapy given by the National Certification Commission for Acupuncture and Oriental Medicine. So, I legally touch people.

For one if you worked anywhere near me and proclaimed yourself as some Internet certified witch doctor and claimed to heal patients via groping - I would make sure that was the last time you did it. See you are a nurse and your responsibilities do not include drumming, chanting and fake a$$ medicine.

There's very little touching in shamanism and I'm not in the USA (except for summers), however I dare you to ever take me to court. In fact, if you ever succeed in serving me court papers, I'll send you a check for $1,000 USD. You have trouble even reading what I write so I'm sure a court date with you would be one of the best times in my life.


If you want to hang up a sign and take peoples money fine - just do it outside of the hospital/office

I've already told you I hope to never step foot in a hospital again.

I guess you have no options for the girl I mentioned earlier, do you?

Now let me get back to my current books, "Journeying: Where Shamanism and Psychology Meet" by Jeannette Gagan, a psychologist, and "Spirit of Shamanism" by Roger Walsh, M.D., Ph.D.. Might want to read these before we go to court.😀
 
Zenman- Are you an NP or an RN? How do you feel you have incorporated natural medicine into your practice?
I'm not into the whole shamanism thing- although it would certainly be interesting to read about!- but I am interested in acupuncture and oriental medicine- at least to investigate.
 
Zenman- Are you an NP or an RN? How do you feel you have incorporated natural medicine into your practice?
I'm not into the whole shamanism thing- although it would certainly be interesting to read about!- but I am interested in acupuncture and oriental medicine- at least to investigate.

I'm an RN and was an FNP student, but after this summer totally gave that up - after talking with the physicians and therapist studying with me. While I value western medicine, I'm more attracted to offering what it lacks. The idea of studying the first healing methods is why, among other reasons, I was "dragged," not always willingly, into this path.

I did study acupuncture but found it too theoretical. As acupuncture students, we were also required to take body therapy courses (something physicians used to do also). I studied Zen Shiatsu and liked it more than acupuncture, and was getting the same results, so I focused on it instead.

How have I incorporated shamanism into my practice. You really do even more than that as it becomes a lifestyle, particularly since there is a big focus on your own healing. Your senses become more developed and you're operating more on the mythic and energetic level versus the literal and symbolic level. Things happen much more quickly here as I've witnessed many times with people who have had "breakthroughs" after many years of treatment. Much of shamanic practice can by explained by some fields of psychology, but I can't explain how, for example a shaman you've never met would break out laughing and make wiping movements at his butt with his hands after you wiped your butt with poison ivy a week earlier. (It wasn't me!)
 
I'm an RN and was an FNP student, but after this summer totally gave that up - after talking with the physicians and therapist studying with me. While I value western medicine, I'm more attracted to offering what it lacks. The idea of studying the first healing methods is why, among other reasons, I was "dragged," not always willingly, into this path.

I did study acupuncture but found it too theoretical. As acupuncture students, we were also required to take body therapy courses (something physicians used to do also). I studied Zen Shiatsu and liked it more than acupuncture, and was getting the same results, so I focused on it instead.

How have I incorporated shamanism into my practice. You really do even more than that as it becomes a lifestyle, particularly since there is a big focus on your own healing. Your senses become more developed and you're operating more on the mythic and energetic level versus the literal and symbolic level. Things happen much more quickly here as I've witnessed many times with people who have had "breakthroughs" after many years of treatment. Much of shamanic practice can by explained by some fields of psychology, but I can't explain how, for example a shaman you've never met would break out laughing and make wiping movements at his butt with his hands after you wiped your butt with poison ivy a week earlier. (It wasn't me!)

I know you say that you don't care if you ever step into another hospital again, but why aren't you and others with your credentials visiting hospitals across america making sick patients better...I mean come on. If you can do it- why aren't you? There are many people that are ill and dying that need your help. Trust me - if you can really fix people with touch and it works on patients that are actually sick - knowbody is going to question you....Right?

Or is there a conspiracy?
 
I know you say that you don't care if you ever step into another hospital again, but why aren't you and others with your credentials visiting hospitals across america making sick patients better...I mean come on. If you can do it- why aren't you? There are many people that are ill and dying that need your help. Trust me - if you can really fix people with touch and it works on patients that are actually sick - knowbody is going to question you....Right?

Or is there a conspiracy?

People with such delusions of grandeur would be devastated by the reality that they cannot actually fix anything. Zenman is under the impression that he can chant away renal failure OR in reality shamman you realize that is actually impossible and we are back to scamming money from the Darwinian back waters.

Oh well, if you do go into hospitals and start "healing" UTIs with a touch on the back please let me know. I would love to see the presenting UA and post "touch" UA or just post the results. We are all waiting with great anticipation.....:laugh::laugh:
 
People with such delusions of grandeur would be devastated by the reality that they cannot actually fix anything. Zenman is under the impression that he can chant away renal failure OR in reality shamman you realize that is actually impossible and we are back to scamming money from the Darwinian back waters.

Oh well, if you do go into hospitals and start "healing" UTIs with a touch on the back please let me know. I would love to see the presenting UA and post "touch" UA or just post the results. We are all waiting with great anticipation.....:laugh::laugh:

We don't actually "fix" anything; we assist the patient to use all available means of healing...while you focus on curing. When you have both then something has really happened.

If you have a UTI, or anything else, then by all means take your meds. If you never get better or continue to get UTIs, for example, maybe going back to see your physician is not a good idea...especially when he has no more meds to offer.

Remember, patients would turn away from us also if they were not getting what they need...important point to remember.

I'm still waiting to see what you would do for the girl mentioned earlier. Her psychologist is coming to talk with me so maybe soon you'll have before and after results.
 
We don't actually "fix" anything; we assist the patient to use all available means of healing...while you focus on curing. When you have both then something has really happened.

If you have a UTI, or anything else, then by all means take your meds. If you never get better or continue to get UTIs, for example, maybe going back to see your physician is not a good idea...especially when he has no more meds to offer.

Remember, patients would turn away from us also if they were not getting what they need...important point to remember.

I'm still waiting to see what you would do for the girl mentioned earlier. Her psychologist is coming to talk with me so maybe soon you'll have before and after results.

So basically, when traditional medicine fails - that's when you come into the picture.....Well, once again, there are thousands of patients in hospitals because traditional medicine can't fix them - Where are you people? Why aren't you helping?

Perhaps I'm a little suspicious, but it sounds like you have a population of patients that like you because there minds have failed them - a specialty where a placebo can have a special effect - I agree with you. Basically, you're treatment is likely as effective bowling......
Science already knows this.

L.
 
I've been following this thread off and on for a bit, and I think in general it has been an interesting discussion. I can see where the Placebo Effect plays a role, and why some would look elsewhere when modern medicine has not met their expectations. I am a big believer in research, and that is where I have a hard time believing some of the more fringe work, much of which is described here. Things like acupuncture and the like, I think there have been some studies showing some success, but the general idea of shamanism seems like the Placebo Effect in shaman's clothing?

At the end of the day, if it works for the patient, and they feel better, I don't think it is all bad.....but it is awfully hard to feel comfortable referring patients to something that doesn't have verifiable research to support it, outside of anecdotal case studies.

I wonder how many patients have been 'cured' because their psychosomatic issues were addressed, under the veil of alternative healing? I don't know the prevelance rates of psychosomaticism, but I'd guess that because of the nature of the Dx, it is hard to pinpoint, much like it is hard to pinpoint many afflictions, since there is still so much to learn in medicine and related fields.

-t

ps. I think in general the conversation has been civil, just make sure to not 'label' each other because of differing opinions.
 
So basically, when traditional medicine fails - that's when you come into the picture.....Well, once again, there are thousands of patients in hospitals because traditional medicine can't fix them - Where are you people? Why aren't you helping?

Simple, because people don't know about you. Do you know how many people ask me, "What's a shaman?" I do prefer people who are at the end of their rope, but that's because I like a challenge and someone has to help them. But there's many who just seeking something in their life, those with nightmares, those who have had every male in their family die of a heart attack before 45 and want to change this pattern. etc., etc.

Speaking of nightmares, I did an extraction on a lady who has had nightmares for 20 years. It's been 4-5 days now and zero nightmares. I'm guessing you don't want to know the details of the extraction, eh?😉

Perhaps I'm a little suspicious, but it sounds like you have a population of patients that like you because there minds have failed them - a specialty where a placebo can have a special effect - I agree with you. Basically, you're treatment is likely as effective bowling......
Science already knows this.
L.

"Minds have failed them????"
 
I've been following this thread off and on for a bit, and I think in general it has been an interesting discussion. I can see where the Placebo Effect plays a role, and why some would look elsewhere when modern medicine has not met their expectations. I am a big believer in research, and that is where I have a hard time believing some of the more fringe work, much of which is described here. Things like acupuncture and the like, I think there have been some studies showing some success, but the general idea of shamanism seems like the Placebo Effect in shaman's clothing?

At the end of the day, if it works for the patient, and they feel better, I don't think it is all bad.....but it is awfully hard to feel comfortable referring patients to something that doesn't have verifiable research to support it, outside of anecdotal case studies.

I wonder how many patients have been 'cured' because their psychosomatic issues were addressed, under the veil of alternative healing? I don't know the prevelance rates of psychosomaticism, but I'd guess that because of the nature of the Dx, it is hard to pinpoint, much like it is hard to pinpoint many afflictions, since there is still so much to learn in medicine and related fields.

-t

ps. I think in general the conversation has been civil, just make sure to not 'label' each other because of differing opinions.

Humanist, transpersonal, and Jungian guys normally have no trouble with shamanism. Many other psychologists and even physicians, use elements of shamanism but don't realize it(Jeanne Achterberg has written about rituals and medicine). Milton Erickson is considered a great shaman and so is Bradford Keeney who is recognized as such by the Kalahari bushman. Jeffery Kottler and Jon Carlson (I'm sure you know of their work in psych) wrote a book about their experiences going into the bush with Keeney.

Myself, and many others in psych, now find it ridiculous that therapists actually believe that anyone can change as a result of greater understanding in itself. One therapist this summer told me that she could never go back to "talk therapy."

There's too much mystery out there that science can't account for. How does one measure the beneficial effects of sitting on the banks of a lake fishing? Stick a needle in your arm for blood samples...drag you back into the hospital for an MRI?

The physicists, Fred Alan Wolf says that out-of-body experiences, shamanic journeying, and lucid dream states can't be replicated in the true scientific sense, but that they point to non-material reality.

Shamanism has always been based on empiricism. For thousands of years there have been trial and error observations, seeing what works so it's very much results oriented...with common techniques in almost every country.

At one time Western science used relative validity...giving a certain number of treatments for a certain illness and see which ones gets results. Now, it's much more artificial.
 
zenman,

The problem with your "girl" is that she has a borderline personality disorder as described by her interpersonal relationship problems and self mutilating behavior.

You can extract all you want and retrieve what ever - the outcome will be the same nothing. You see, personality disorders are rarely cured, many just burn out - no longer able to find/get the secondary gains that sustained the behavior - and some just accidentally kill themselves.

They are resistant to treatment, they will tell you how you are the only one that has ever helped them, you have really made a difference in my life, or your an amazing healer. These statements do not reflect progress in treatment but regression and the actual mechanisms of their pathology.

They will morph into what ever character necessary to develop a relationship and this usually ends in disaster. SO your efforts are actually not helpful and may lead to dangerous behaviors when she does not get her needs met.

So in reality she needs firm limits, an environment free of other personality disorders that may feed into her pathology (this was no directed at you BTW), and reality testing.

All of your goat chaps, chanting touchy feely glowy magic hands will do nothing to help this woman. The best thing you could do is refer her to a competent therapist and stay the heck away from her. The "treatments" you may perform have no basis for helping such problems and may exacerbate them.

So if shamanism is so advanced and beyond the comprehension of science based medical practitioners like myself than why has it been so ineffective? If it has been around for a 1000 years why do so many people die of disease in third world countries were this practice of "medicine" takes place? In this country, science has extended the life of the individual and I don't think you glowy hands magic show can claim that. If it was so advanced then people would be flocking to remote third world outpost to have their cancer cured. In reality, it is a cultural practice that has no actual medical utility.
 
oldManDO2009, you're wasting your time.

Give him credit for hanging in there especially with the current health trends he's fighting against;

* Heart disease and cancer death rates have increased by more than 200% - 300% in the past 100 years and the incidence of heart disease is still increasing.
* Health surveys reveal that an increasing number of people are suffering from one or more chronic illnesses.
* The incidence of various disorders, including diabetes and obesity, are increasing throughout the Western world.
* Although we are managing to prolong the lives of many who are ill we are also becoming sicker earlier in life.
* More people are spending a greater period of their lives suffering from one or more disabilities. This is not related to increased life expectancy.
* There is a continuing increase in the per capita use of medical services - although more people are going to the doctor more often, they are becoming sicker in spite of reductions in smoking and increasing use of diet and exercise programs.
* There continues to be an astonishing increase in the use of pharmaceutical products and prescription drugs - a fact which correlates with a deterioration in public health. The more drugs we take, the sicker we are becoming.
* The incidence of iatrogenic diseases is increasing alarmingly and has now become the third leading cause of death behind heart disease and cancer.


Bummer🙁
 
You touch on a number of valid issues (diabetes, more available medications, etc), but it isn't as causal as you allude. I think our general nutrition and exercise is abysmal. Nothing says healthy like high fructose corn syrup, super-sizing, and maximizing exercise by walking from the couch to the fridge....to the couch.

-t
 
zenman,

The problem with your "girl" is that she has a borderline personality disorder as described by her interpersonal relationship problems and self mutilating behavior.

You can extract all you want and retrieve what ever - the outcome will be the same nothing. You see, personality disorders are rarely cured, many just burn out - no longer able to find/get the secondary gains that sustained the behavior - and some just accidentally kill themselves.

They are resistant to treatment, they will tell you how you are the only one that has ever helped them, you have really made a difference in my life, or your an amazing healer. These statements do not reflect progress in treatment but regression and the actual mechanisms of their pathology.

They will morph into what ever character necessary to develop a relationship and this usually ends in disaster. SO your efforts are actually not helpful and may lead to dangerous behaviors when she does not get her needs met.

So in reality she needs firm limits, an environment free of other personality disorders that may feed into her pathology (this was no directed at you BTW), and reality testing.

I agree but she has had all this and is going down the tubes. Do we do as one shrink told me, "overall the best treatment is to take them out and shoot them."

Now, if her therapists, parents etc., want to see me I want her therapist there so he can see what happens and can follow up. I don't want to do therapy with her.

All of your goat chaps, chanting touchy feely glowy magic hands will do nothing to help this woman. The best thing you could do is refer her to a competent therapist and stay the heck away from her.(She has already had several competent therapists - Zenman) The "treatments" you may perform have no basis for helping such problems and may exacerbate them.

So if shamanism is so advanced and beyond the comprehension of science based medical practitioners like myself than why has it been so ineffective? If it has been around for a 1000 years why do so many people die of disease in third world countries were this practice of "medicine" takes place? In this country, science has extended the life of the individual and I don't think you glowy hands magic show can claim that. If it was so advanced then people would be flocking to remote third world outpost to have their cancer cured. In reality, it is a cultural practice that has no actual medical utility.

Actually many cultures were doing very well till the white folks showed up and introduced most of the diseases that now kill them. And I did have a lesbian tell me that I had the "best hands ever." That's about the best endorsement a guy can get!:laugh:

"I haven't conducted an official survey," comments Gray, "but I estimate that my shamanic work is about 90 percent effective." Having participated in two of her shamanic workshops, I have no trouble believing her. At the end of the most recent workshop, one participant confided to me that the breakthrough she made on her shamanic journey that day was "more dramatic than anything I have experienced in 20 years of psychotherapy." The woman later confirmed that it led to positive, observable behavioral changes within a matter of days.

http://www.woodfish.org/bridge.html
 
You touch on a number of valid issues (diabetes, more available medications, etc), but it isn't as causal as you allude. I think our general nutrition and exercise is abysmal. Nothing says healthy like high fructose corn syrup, super-sizing, and maximizing exercise by walking from the couch to the fridge....to the couch.

-t

And yet, public health probably gets the least funding of all areas.

A current project:

http://www.healthypeople.gov/data/midcourse/html/default.htm#FocusAreas
 
if someone was reading my post they would think I have an ax to grind with zenman - we have been at this discussion for at least a year or more - I think he is nuts and he thinks I am reductionist. But in the end no worries it is just a friendly discussion.....
 
if someone was reading my post they would think I have an ax to grind with zenman - we have been at this discussion for at least a year or more - I think he is nuts and he thinks I am reductionist. But in the end no worries it is just a friendly discussion.....

Yes, we're friendly guys just trying to educate each other. As for me being nuts I have passed psych tests with flying colors. But that reminds me. Being the smartass that I am, it would be funny to get a more recent psych eval and post it on my website. "Shaman has proof he's not crazy!":laugh:
 
What exactly do you mean "passed"?

:laugh:

-t

Well, I got the job the required a battery of psych tests by a psychological consulting firm and was basically told I was about as normal as one can be. Which I guess could be a slap in the face if one doesn't want to be normal.

Now, what tests would you suggest I take? We have a Swedish guy here that can test me.
 
Simple, because people don't know about you. Do you know how many people ask me, "What's a shaman?" I do prefer people who are at the end of their rope, but that's because I like a challenge and someone has to help them. But there's many who just seeking something in their life, those with nightmares, those who have had every male in their family die of a heart attack before 45 and want to change this pattern. etc., etc.

Speaking of nightmares, I did an extraction on a lady who has had nightmares for 20 years. It's been 4-5 days now and zero nightmares. I'm guessing you don't want to know the details of the extraction, eh?😉



"Minds have failed them????"


Do they really have to know what Shamanism is? Just go to the hospital, visit a stranger who is dying and "heal" them. Prove your craft.

Don't wait for patients to come to you - go to them. If I could do what you claim they would have to kick me out of the hospitals or anyplace with sick and ill people. I'd start by getting a team together and canvassing every children's hospital I could. The doctors and staff wouldn't even have to know what was happening! But when they see a patient that they expected to die "healing"....well, what could anybody say but thank you.

Or is it about money. Do your patients need to "believe in you and your craft" first?

Please - Help us western folks from ourselves....Please!
 
Do they really have to know what Shamanism is? Just go to the hospital, visit a stranger who is dying and "heal" them. Prove your craft.

Don't wait for patients to come to you - go to them. If I could do what you claim they would have to kick me out of the hospitals or anyplace with sick and ill people. I'd start by getting a team together and canvassing every children's hospital I could. The doctors and staff wouldn't even have to know what was happening! But when they see a patient that they expected to die "healing"....well, what could anybody say but thank you.

Or is it about money. Do your patients need to "believe in you and your craft" first?

Please - Help us western folks from ourselves....Please!

great point - to refuse such action would only prove the "craft" is composed of falsehoods.....taking the bait zenman????
 
Do they really have to know what Shamanism is? Just go to the hospital, visit a stranger who is dying and "heal" them. Prove your craft.

Don't wait for patients to come to you - go to them. If I could do what you claim they would have to kick me out of the hospitals or anyplace with sick and ill people. I'd start by getting a team together and canvassing every children's hospital I could. The doctors and staff wouldn't even have to know what was happening! But when they see a patient that they expected to die "healing"....well, what could anybody say but thank you.

Or is it about money. Do your patients need to "believe in you and your craft" first?

Please - Help us western folks from ourselves....Please!

Get real. Many of the physicians who practice shamanism have to practice underground. One I met who does group work with cancer patients said he was trying to figure out how to introduce it into the hospital without getting kicked out. My teacher, a psychologist and medical anthropologist, said that he and some of his buddies were brought up before their professional organization years ago for practicing shamanism. Some though, like me, don't care what any organization has to think. However, it keeps you outside the doors to many institutions.


Yes, belief is important...with any type of treatment including allopathic.

I posted this on another thread but it goes here also:

"Dr. Lori Arviso Alvord bridges two worlds of medicine—traditional Navajo healing and conventional Western medicine—to treat the whole patient. She provides culturally competent care to restore balance in her patients' lives and to speed their recovery.

As a Stanford-trained surgeon, she developed her technical and clinical skills. Alvord was the first Navajo woman to be board certified in surgery. But when she returned to the New Mexico reservation to work in a Navajo community she discovered, she says, that "although I was a good surgeon, I was not always a good healer. I went back to the healers of my tribe to learn what a surgical residency could not teach me. From them I have heard a resounding message: Everything in life is connected. Learn to understand the bonds between humans, spirit, and nature. Realize that our illness and our healing alike come from maintaining strong and healthy relationships in every aspect of our lives."

Surgery can remedy many ills, but as Alvord worked with her Navajo patients she learned that modern scientific medicine by itself could not reestablish the missing harmony in their health. Navajo healers (hataalii) use song, symbols (such as corn pollen, eagle feathers, masks of the Navajo gods, and sand paintings), and ceremony with their patients, and involve family and neighbors in the process. The psychological and spiritual comfort thus provided can prepare patients for surgery, childbirth, or chemotherapy, for example, and speed their recovery afterwards.

Dr. Alvord is still a surgeon, but she tries to heal, not just fix, her patients by working with families, other practitioners, and constant cultural awareness. She looks for the places in the patient's life, relationships (both personal and with health care providers), and environment where things are out of balance. "Hospitals need to have places where you can see trees and grass and sky and sun... animals nearby, and not just for children and the elderly. Beauty is so important—artwork on the walls, gardens, outdoor porches with a view. A hospital should also have the right smells, the right foods, the right sounds, the things in life that soothe us. We should also avoid the things that are wrong, that cause stress—no harsh sounds, no bright lights, no invasive overhead paging."

In Alvord's New Mexico house, her two worlds sit side by side: a beeper on the table, a cell phone on its charger, and a stack of medical journals that share space with a handmade wood and leather cradleboard. A menagerie of bear fetishes inhabits the mantelpiece."
 
which only proves that your mumbo-jumbo does not heal anything except make the patient feel more comfortable. You use goat skin chaps and I use ativan. It does not heal but provides comfort - I'd take ativan any day over a bunch of chanting and dancing.

So does this admission finally end the discussion shamman? You can not use your glowy magic hands to heal UTI?

as always

oldman:meanie:
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top