Dropping all COMLEX exams for USMLE+OMM exam

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Thank you for posting. I do not think that one can reliably extrapolate improvements in testing in such a linear fashion using only 2 year's worth of data...it is likely far too complex. In case you missed my previous post, here are stats from the last 8 years...

DO Passage Rates for Step I (1st time takers)
2000 77%
2001 72%
2002 70%
2003 74%
2004 70%
2005 73%
2006 77%
2007 82%

As you can see, it took six years just to get back to the 77% pass rate seen in 2000. Not to mention, here are a few more years (again from USMLE.org)...

1998-1999 85%
1998 total 87%
1997 78%

If you and I had been having this discussion in 1998, a statement might have been made that DOs would SURPASS MDs in a year or so...but they didn't. I just think there are too many variables to try and draw a straight line...sorry.

So why do you think the gap is (and has been) there?

we also need to keep in mind when comparing pass rates that MD students all have to take step 1. So every single person (just about) in a class will be factored into pass rates. For DO students this is not the case. It is currently an option. I am sure they self select and prepare if that is their goal. So I am not sure you can even really compare unless all DO students had to take the USMLE as well. I am not sure what would be different in the curriculum/prep.

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It was my impression that these numbers are for all those who TOOK the USMLE, not out of total numbers of students...as people have stated, somewhere between 1/3 to 1/2 of all DO students take the USMLE. If these numbers were for all DO students, presuming a 100% pass rate for all those who took the test, you would see no more than a 50% pass rate instead of what we do see.

No I know, that was what I was saying. I am saying I think it is difficult to compare the two and know for sure if there are major differences in curriculum because of it. Since we know that all students in an MD program has to take it to be licensed so we can more accurately say if the school is doing a good job in preparation (ex: 95% pass rate). But, for DO students the test for them is optional. Therefore I think the people that chose to take step 1 will prepare for it (outside of what they may not get in their curriculum). So looking at 80% pass rate for a DO school doesn't really tell us how that school as a whole is preparing them for step 1 (because who knows how the half that didn't take would do??). Unless all DO students took step 1 we cannot accurately compare pass rates (at least I don't think so, but I sure could be wrong).
 
Again, not to be argumentative or to flame anyone, but there is a lot of discussion on these forums about how similar MD and DOs are with regard to their education, and I agree (save for the OMM part, which I learned nothing about), but what accounts for the large difference in passage rates, and why would curricula need to be altered if you are taught the same stuff as allopaths? Are your curricula now based on just the short-sighted puropse of passing the COMLEX or being a good doc?

It seems as though DOs have access to all the same USMLE prep materials and question banks (Amazon.com) as allopath students, so differences in how questions are worded should be mitigated by proper preparation.

Just curious.

The COMLEX is a completely different beast from the USMLE. The COMLEX tends to be poorly worded (many times, you're trying to empathize with the question writer to choose the correct answer) and focuses on lower-level thinking skills (knowledge, comprehension, application). The USMLE tends to be well worded and assesses higher-level thinking skills (i.e, analysis, synthesis, evaluation).

Also, COMLEX I does not focus on genetics, biochemistry, and molecular biology (medicine is going in this direction, so I do not know why this is the case) while the USMLE step I does. The OMT part can be learned in a few days.

The AOA is aware of the conversations about getting rid of the COMLEX in favor of the USMLE + OMM. They are not interested in change.
 
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I think anyone looking for the AOA or any osteopathic organization to dismantle the NBOME and COMLEX is going to be diappointed.

These tests mean $$ for the NBOME. It also justifies their existence. Why would the AOA cut off a revenue stream and, in the process, admit that their exam is inferior? This will never happen.

The only plausible way this could happen is at a state or national level; i.e. a particular state decides that the USMLE would be the only accepted examination for gaining licensure in that particular state. Of course, the AOA would protest, but at this point it would no longer just be up to them to decide.
 
I think anyone looking for the AOA or any osteopathic organization to dismantle the NBOME and COMLEX is going to be diappointed.

These tests mean $$ for the NBOME. It also justifies their existence. Why would the AOA cut off a revenue stream and, in the process, admit that their exam is inferior? This will never happen.

The only plausible way this could happen is at a state or national level; i.e. a particular state decides that the USMLE would be the only accepted examination for gaining licensure in that particular state. Of course, the AOA would protest, but at this point it would no longer just be up to them to decide.

I didn't major in business but i will give this a shot. Lets see perhaps the AOA can let allopaths into our residency programs and thus could lead to more revenue. In addition, similar to some residencies comlex can merge with USMLE to produce a more comprehensive exam, this can probably set up a revenue sharing system..why? because now you have all DO's taking the exam and giving USMLE a reason to buy the idea. AOA can finally work hand in hand with the allopathic world and play the sport like we are part of the game. Think of medicine as MLB, both national league and american league's co-exist together but have a different set of rules when you play on each others turfs. One doesn't need an entirely diff exam, alienating residencies to be unique..we are diff from the allopaths in ideology but this doesn't mean we need to build a wall to show our unique existence.
 
Also, COMLEX I does not focus on genetics, biochemistry, and molecular biology (medicine is going in this direction, so I do not know why this is the case) while the USMLE step I does.

I disagree that the COMLEX doesn't focus on these things, it does, it just focuses on the CLINICAL aspects of the diseases that are a consquence of genetics and biochemical processes. It seems like the USMLE wants you to understand all the lab techniques and know lots of details of all these biochemical reactions, and COMLEX wants to know, if a patient came to you with the symptoms x, y, z, what tests do you order, and what enzymes, ect would be elevated...(and I know, the USMLE wants you to know this too.) It's not that the DO schools are cutting corners, because we still had to learn all the same biochem pathways ect during first year, and got tested over it, but, in REALITY, for a DO student (seeing as many less pursue research careers than MDs) it's not as if you're going to work in the lab with this stuff(unless you're a pathologist, or a researcher as I said earlier) and will ever really extensively use that information aside from needing it for the first two years of med school and to take the USMLE. A good understanding of this info will help you understand research and future progress for treatments, ect, and who knows if this "good understanding" necessarily requires extensive testing. I'm really not trying to over-generalize here, just trying to highlight the differences, because there ARE differences and no one can deny that...so please don't flame like crazy about this...:oops:

And all that said, I would not be surprised if more of the COMLEX was genetics and molecular bio in the future, since it seems pretty certain there may never be one test for all of us :laugh:
 
No I know, that was what I was saying. I am saying I think it is difficult to compare the two and know for sure if there are major differences in curriculum because of it. Since we know that all students in an MD program has to take it to be licensed so we can more accurately say if the school is doing a good job in preparation (ex: 95% pass rate). But, for DO students the test for them is optional. Therefore I think the people that chose to take step 1 will prepare for it (outside of what they may not get in their curriculum). So looking at 80% pass rate for a DO school doesn't really tell us how that school as a whole is preparing them for step 1 (because who knows how the half that didn't take would do??). Unless all DO students took step 1 we cannot accurately compare pass rates (at least I don't think so, but I sure could be wrong).

You are missing the point..no one's talking about a schools reputation. Here the point of debate is DO's need to take USMLE over COMLEX and in regards to that the more DO's take the exam the more the trends and the score association to our degrees will change. I have no doubt in my mind that DO's can match up on any level with MD's if only we take a similar exam to relieve us all the nonsense. If one day USMLE gets standardized for DO's..then schools can start working on better prep toward USMLE. I use a lot of books for USMLE and i don't feel like i learn apples in my school while oranges are tested on USMLE's. So don't stay under the impression that DO's don't learn whats needed for usmle's..the problem is we often don't see the emphasis on some high yield subjects that can help you do well on USMLE's.
 
So don't stay under the impression that DO's don't learn whats needed for usmle's..the problem is we often don't see the emphasis on some high yield subjects that can help you do well on USMLE's.

EXACTLY...the emphasis is different :thumbup:
 
I disagree that the COMLEX doesn't focus on these things, it does, it just focuses on the CLINICAL aspects of the diseases that are a consquence of genetics and biochemical processes. It seems like the USMLE wants you to understand all the lab techniques and know lots of details of all these biochemical reactions, and COMLEX wants to know, if a patient came to you with the symptoms x, y, z, what tests do you order, and what enzymes, ect would be elevated...(and I know, the USMLE wants you to know this too.) It's not that the DO schools are cutting corners, because we still had to learn all the same biochem pathways ect during first year, and got tested over it, but, in REALITY, for a DO student (seeing as many less pursue research careers than MDs) it's not as if you're going to work in the lab with this stuff(unless you're a pathologist, or a researcher as I said earlier) and will ever really extensively use that information aside from needing it for the first two years of med school and to take the USMLE. A good understanding of this info will help you understand research and future progress for treatments, ect, and who knows if this "good understanding" necessarily requires extensive testing. I'm really not trying to over-generalize here, just trying to highlight the differences, because there ARE differences and no one can deny that...so please don't flame like crazy about this...:oops:

And all that said, I would not be surprised if more of the COMLEX was genetics and molecular bio in the future, since it seems pretty certain there may never be one test for all of us :laugh:


Yes, the emphasis is on the clinical aspects in both lecturs (at least at my school) and the testing, which is why the questioning is simplistic. Maybe they have increased the number of questions in these subjects since I have taken it (not long ago), but my exams were not heavy in genetics, biochemistry, and molecular biology. This underscores the lack on emphasis on research in DO schools (not good IMHO).
It also strengthens the argument of midlevel providers who constantly seek to increase their scopes of practice (If we do not have to learn this information outside of diseases, why should they?) Knowing the "how" vs. only the "why" is what makes us physicians. Anyone can lean the "why."
It also is a big deterrent for DO's to pursue clinical research as their careers progress (who wants to go back and re-learn this information vs. reviewing it). But again, the future of medicine is in genetics, biochemisty, and molecular biology. Not flaming, but mentioning this because this is another area of our education where the AOA, COCA does not get it. We're not at the forefront in these areas, and our leaders have no desire for us to be there.
I would love to see the COMLEX emphasize these 3 subjects more, but I doubt that sice they will they currently have a great money-making model, and no incentive to hange it. The AOA continues to drop the ball on the profession with its continued lack of foresight.
 
Also I have heard of many people taking the USMLE after they took the COMLEX on a "whim" essentially because they did decent on the COMLEX and think that their preparation for the COMLEX is equal and adequate for the USMLE. This is absolutely false and these are entirely two different exams, however I believe that it is safe to say that if you study hard and do well on the USMLE that you will pass COMLEX.

Again if 30% of DO students failed USMLE b/c either they couldn't hack it, didn't study correctly, or weren't able to comprehend the material that most actual physicians take, then that is fine by me! (Of course this statement is in revelance to requiring everyone to take USMLE). Patholog makes a good point regarding who passes and the percentages BUT I have a lot of friends that are taking the COMLEX only that would do just fine on the USMLE, and infact are preparing for the COMLEX as if they are taking the USMLE, so to say that the pass rate would be lower for DO's will be lower if all are required to take it, may not be so, but I wouldn't be surprised to see in the beginning a 30% failure rate and then that creep up to the norms of allopathic, once schools caught on.

Point is, we are all physicians, let's take the same exam, fine throw in OMM for us DO's for an extra 50 block, and make it pass/fail or whatever, but don't count it towards the overall USMLE score. Let's be able to actually compare apples to apples, that's why I took it.
 
Why are we avoiding the big ass pink elephant in the room -- DO students, generally, have lowers standardized test scores. It's a fact. Face it.

When you start "forcing" kids with sub/low 20 MCAT scores to take a test (USMLE) alongside kids with MCAT scores almost 10 points higher (sometimes even more), you're going to see MORE failures. Simple as that.

The reason for lower pass rates on the USMLE Step 1 for DO students is multifactorial -- history of underperformance on standardized tests, difference in subject emphasis in curricula, inadequate prep, BAD ADVICE, etc are all part of the equation.
 
Why are we avoiding the big ass pink elephant in the room -- DO students, generally, have lowers standardized test scores. It's a fact. Face it.

When you start "forcing" kids with sub/low 20 MCAT scores to take a test (USMLE) alongside kids with MCAT scores almost 10 points higher (sometimes even more), you're going to see MORE failures. Simple as that.

The reason for lower pass rates on the USMLE Step 1 for DO students is multifactorial -- history of underperformance on standardized tests, difference in subject emphasis in curricula, inadequate prep, BAD ADVICE, etc are all part of the equation.

The truth. Especially the bad advice part.
 
Why are we avoiding the big ass pink elephant in the room -- DO students, generally, have lowers standardized test scores. It's a fact. Face it.

When you start "forcing" kids with sub/low 20 MCAT scores to take a test (USMLE) alongside kids with MCAT scores almost 10 points higher (sometimes even more), you're going to see MORE failures. Simple as that.

The reason for lower pass rates on the USMLE Step 1 for DO students is multifactorial -- history of underperformance on standardized tests, difference in subject emphasis in curricula, inadequate prep, BAD ADVICE, etc are all part of the equation.

This is essentially my point exactly, if they want to practice everyone should have to pass the same exam if we are saying we are equals, and want to be treated equally.

In response to the above statement which I know was "in general" I know a lot of DO students here that have dominated the USMLE just like the MD students, so while perhaps the lower 50% may struggle with standardized tests, etc I don't know if the same is true for the top 50%. Just my observation from my class atleast.
 
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This is essentially my point exactly, if they want to practice everyone should have to pass the same exam if we are saying we are equals, and want to be treated equally.

In response to the above statement which I know was "in general" I know a lot of DO students here that have dominated the USMLE just like the MD students, so while perhaps the lower 50% may struggle with standardized tests, etc I don't know if the same is true for the top 50%. Just my observation from my class atleast.

Yeah and it's the bottom-scrappers that I'm worried about. We all have them. Those people I call QA's (Questionable Acceptances)...

The ones who were happy with 70's during the 1st two years b/c "grades don't really matter that much" and who decided to take the USMLE "just to see how I do." Oh and they're using BoardBuster as their main book and USMLEasy as their Qbank b/c they're studying on a budget.

NBME tests? What's that?
 
I'm the OP. I just took the COMLEX today. It's not badly written at all. However, it is inconsistent. My test STRONGLY emphasized myotonic dystrophy of all things. I didn't know what the question was on the last 3 questions. The person had both indirect and direct hernias and you were asked aspects of the "hernia". My blocks 7 and 8 were very difficult for me, so that probably taints my view. In retrospect, time to down a few cold brews!
 
Yeah and it's the bottom-scrappers that I'm worried about. We all have them. Those people I call QA's (Questionable Acceptances)...

The ones who were happy with 70's during the 1st two years b/c "grades don't really matter that much" and who decided to take the USMLE "just to see how I do." Oh and they're using BoardBuster as their main book and USMLEasy as their Qbank b/c they're studying on a budget.

NBME tests? What's that?

hmm i am not sure your analysis is quite accurate. There's no clear way to generalize school grades, attitudes to USMLE scores. I personally don't care about being in the top 5 percent in my class..i will be happy with B's but that has nothing to do with my motivation to rock the boards. There might be questionable acceptances but here's what you need to realize my friend anyone is capable of doing well on the boards with proper preparation. Nothing is set in stone oh hey i was a bad student in high school, college so i will continue to do so...this kind of pessimism deters those who want to dig themselves out of a hole.
 
I also feel that a huge difference in studying for and taking these tests is that the USMLE has been studied intensely and there is actually a somewhat effective "lexicon" of high yield material floating around out there...Goljan, FA, Kaplan, UWorld...these resources will by no means give you every question on the test, but they do seem to be pretty effective in steering you in the right direction. In contrast, I felt like the COMLEX was much more of a wild card, where you might know 20 facts related to the question, but the specific detail they were asking was just something you didn't cover in FA.

I absolutely agree. I feel the COMLEX is a lot more unpredictable. My form of COMLEX emphasized things that I never expected from the conventional wisdom about the test.
Ironically I ended up doing significantly better on the USMLE than the COMLEX. :)
Needless to say, I'm definitely glad that I took the USMLE rather than just accepting the conventional wisdom that DOs do worse on the USMLE. I felt my school prepared us well enough that I was on equal footing with MD students.
 
I'm the OP. I just took the COMLEX today. It's not badly written at all. However, it is inconsistent. My test STRONGLY emphasized myotonic dystrophy of all things. I didn't know what the question was on the last 3 questions. The person had both indirect and direct hernias and you were asked aspects of the "hernia". My blocks 7 and 8 were very difficult for me, so that probably taints my view. In retrospect, time to down a few cold brews!

Are you talking about the matching w/ pics of the obese people? the matching is always so weird to me, I never know wtf they are really asking so I just go with associations. I was surprised by the number of myotonic dystrophy questions too, and the "floppy baby" Werdnig-Hoffman disease question, I only even got to that by process of elimination, and didn't know the answer to the next one which wanted the molecular defect. I thought the hernia one was only a direct, but I don't really remember the question that well :confused: :rolleyes:
 
So why do you think the gap is (and has been) there?

To be perfectly honest, the gap is there for the same reason that the gap in entering MCAT scores is there.
 
Yeah and it's the bottom-scrappers that I'm worried about. We all have them. Those people I call QA's (Questionable Acceptances)...

The ones who were happy with 70's during the 1st two years b/c "grades don't really matter that much" and who decided to take the USMLE "just to see how I do." Oh and they're using BoardBuster as their main book and USMLEasy as their Qbank b/c they're studying on a budget.

NBME tests? What's that?

I think it's widely accepted that preclinical grades have very little bearing on your ability as a physician. I've had multiple physicians tell me that they didn't excel (didn't fail either) during their first two years, but did well on the boards and made it into competitive specialties.

I've done fine, but I know several classmates who haven't scored extremely well and I am more than confident that they know their stuff.
 
I think it's widely accepted that preclinical grades have very little bearing on your ability as a physician. I've had multiple physicians tell me that they didn't excel (didn't fail either) during their first two years, but did well on the boards and made it into competitive specialties.

I've done fine, but I know several classmates who haven't scored extremely well and I am more than confident that they know their stuff.

I agree with you 100% boss. I'm not talking about the person who hovers in the 80's (with the occasional 90+), decides to bust their ass for Step 1 and nails it.

I'm talking about the BOTTOM-SCRAPPERS (the bottom 10-15%) of every class. They often have HUGE gaps in their knowledge. And for the most part they could care less. Forcing that crowd to take the USMLE Step 1 is going to lead to more failures ESPECIALLY if they have a track record of underperformance on standardized exams.

That's all I'm saying.
 
I agree with you 100% boss. I'm not talking about the person who hovers in the 80's (with the occasional 90+), decides to bust their ass for Step 1 and nails it.

I'm talking about the BOTTOM-SCRAPPERS (the bottom 10-15%) of every class. They often have HUGE gaps in their knowledge. And for the most part they could care less. Forcing that crowd to take the USMLE Step 1 is going to lead to more failures ESPECIALLY if they have a track record of underperformance on standardized exams.

That's all I'm saying.

Unfortunately more and more of these bottom feeders are getting in as more and more schools open up. That coupled with a ****ty residency does not make for a well trained physician.
 
Unfortunately more and more of these bottom feeders are getting in as more and more schools open up. That coupled with a ****ty residency does not make for a well trained physician.

You are a wise man sir!
 
Sorry to keep harping, and maybe I am misunderstanding you, but these numbers are for ALL DO takers, not from one school in particular. So unless there is a DO school that had 1500 people take the test in 2006-2007, these numbers should represent all takers from all the schools from which they came. Not to mention, these are the people who CHOSE to take it and, one would presume, prepared for it accordingly.

No. Noeljan's point is that you have every single MD student taking the USMLE. For us DO students, that is not the case. The DO students who take it are self-selected based on their residency interest. These generally tend to be the above avg DO student, not the below avg ones. So, you have the poorest to the best MD students taking the USMLE, while only the ambitious/above avg DO students taking the USMLE. If we had all DO students, chances are those pass %s would fall.

Like DS noted, DO students tend to be poor test-takers, that or had low school grades for any variety of reasons (and high test scores). I tend to think the latter tends to do much better in medical school and boards than the former.
 
No. Noeljan's point is that you have every single MD student taking the USMLE. For us DO students, that is not the case. The DO students who take it are self-selected based on their residency interest. These generally tend to be the above avg DO student, not the below avg ones. So, you have the poorest to the best MD students taking the USMLE, while only the ambitious/above avg DO students taking the USMLE. If we had all DO students, chances are those pass %s would fall.

Like DS noted, DO students tend to be poor test-takers, that or had low school grades for any variety of reasons (and high test scores). I tend to think the latter tends to do much better in medical school and boards than the former.

I am very curious how someone has the audacity to claim such findings without specifying that everything said or heard here on SDN is mostly subjective. I would like to clarify the biggest misconception about DO's..."smart students take USMLE's while the dumb one's don't", a false opinion widely shared by many SDN members. Again a lot of competent intelligent students in the past only took COMLEX due to their lack of awareness of the residency process or simply didn't wanted to go into the allopathic match. The single most imp criterion for taking the USMLE's is your desire to be in an allopathic match and for those who see AOA as suffice will choose not to do so, this doesn't mean we qualify them as some how the rotten apples of the bunch. A lot of people here are still missing the point of this thread that we are all trying to debate the weeding out process for DO's..that is if we all had one exam like USMLE which is widely believed to be better written can save us DO's a lot of misery. But i caution everyone who spreads the idea that DO's who haven't or will not take USMLE's are somehow scared to fail...please these kids will be as adept as your fellow MD's in the clinical settings.
 
I am very curious how someone has the audacity to claim such findings without specifying that everything said or heard here on SDN is mostly subjective. I would like to clarify the biggest misconception about DO's..."smart students take USMLE's while the dumb one's don't", a false opinion widely shared by many SDN members. Again a lot of competent intelligent students in the past only took COMLEX due to their lack of awareness of the residency process or simply didn't wanted to go into the allopathic match. The single most imp criterion for taking the USMLE's is your desire to be in an allopathic match and for those who see AOA as suffice will choose not to do so, this doesn't mean we qualify them as some how the rotten apples of the bunch. A lot of people here are still missing the point of this thread that we are all trying to debate the weeding out process for DO's..that is if we all had one exam like USMLE which is widely believed to be better written can save us DO's a lot of misery. But i caution everyone who spreads the idea that DO's who haven't or will not take USMLE's are somehow scared to fail...please these kids will be as adept as your fellow MD's in the clinical settings.

My explanation, as well as Noeljan's and a few other's, is based on that post of passing rate stats for DOs.

No, I'm not inferring dumb ones dont take USMLE while smart ones do. I didn't say that was 100% open/shut case. I said it tends to be that way. There will be self-selection going on. Don't kid yourself. It happens when applying for residencies and I believe it occurs when it comes down to taking the boards, as well. Heck, it even happens when it comes to applying for medical school. You don't see those with 20+ MCATers try for Harvard/Duke/Mayo etc. You don't even see many sub 30s try. Self-selection is an important variable I believe. Of course, there is more to it than that. There are many variables. Also, I didn't make the blanket statement of DOs being less intelligent. DS was half right in that DO students tend to have lower test scores; hence, I added in that there is the other group of students who didn't do hot in class but rocked the MCAT. To me, I believe they tend to do better when it comes to med school and the boards especially if they attempt to study in class. They understand concepts quickly, know how to study, are good standardized exam takers, whatever. I feel those who do not have a good foundation and have been barely passing are not likely to take the USMLE. I feel those who have been above avg. will based off their interests (I believe I mentioned that up there -- if not, oh well -- however, it brings up my point of self-selection all over again -- those who choose to try allo will take the USMLE -- again, self-selection).

Anyways, I haven't taken either yet. So, I have no opinion on this matter neither should anyone who hasn't taken both. Such audacity! :rolleyes:
 
....These generally tend to be the above avg DO student, not the below avg ones. So, you have the poorest to the best MD students taking the USMLE, while only the ambitious/above avg DO students taking the USMLE.....

How in the world would you know that? Do you actually know anyone by name who's taken COMLEX or USMLE in the past few years? Well...I do. I know quite a few of them at several DO schools and I can tell you that it's not necessarily true.

Half of the DO grads in this country end up in ACGME residencies these days because there aren't enough AOA residencies that either fulfill their expections, or are located where they want to go. The common misconception among DO students is that you HAVE to take USMLE if you want to get a residency close to your family in Peediddy, Alabama. So a whole lot of them take it anyway. A whole LOT of average and below average DO students are taking it.
 
I know a fair number, although I'm sure not as many as you.

Anyways, fair enough. I'm bowing out of this discussion anyway.
 
The majority of peopleI know in myUNECOM class taking the USMLE do it because they either want a residency that is barely offered when going osteopathic, they want to live in a location poorly represented by the AOA, or both. We have certain profs that teach quite directly for the USMLE, and those that don't consider it at all. In general, blanket statements such as all DOs stink at standardized tests are just stupid. There are many many reasons why hundreds of people go osteopathic every year.
 
A whole LOT of average and below average DO students are taking it.

Yes and that is one of my points. Why are these "at risk" students taking the USMLE Step 1 to begin with, failing it (sometimes miserably) and lowering the overall pass rate for DOs. It's making us look bad and it certainly isn't helping them with landing a residency.

This is where BAD ADVICE (or no advice) comes into play. If DO students had someone in their school (prof, advisor, etc) who is well versed on board exams, they'd tell them "listen, don't even THINK about taking the USMLE if you can't crack at least at 220 on AT LEAST 2 NBME practice test!" In short,

***AT RISK D.O. STUDENTS SHOULD NOT BE TAKING THE USMLE STEP 1***

In general, blanket statements such as all DOs stink at standardized tests are just stupid.

Please show me where such a comment was made in this thread.
 
Yes and that is one of my points. Why are these "at risk" students taking the USMLE Step 1 to begin with, failing it (sometimes miserably) and lowering the overall pass rate for DOs. It's making us look bad and it certainly isn't helping them with landing a residency.

This is where BAD ADVICE (or no advice) comes into play. If DO students had someone in their school (prof, advisor, etc) who is well versed on board exams, they'd tell them "listen, don't even THINK about taking the USMLE if you can't crack at least at 220 on AT LEAST 2 NBME practice test!" In short,

***AT RISK D.O. STUDENTS SHOULD NOT BE TAKING THE USMLE STEP 1***

Agree with DOCTORSAIB.

While I agree the COMLEX should be thrown out and all licensing exams should be co-sponsored by the NBME and AOA, all residency training should be available to ALL medical students, and probably the two "versions" of physicians should merge and become a better, stronger physician in toto...

It is never going to happen. If all osteopathic medical students were to take the USMLE, there would more than likely be a > 50% fail rate.

Why? Well, in my graduating class, we had a lot of people who I would consider "Questionable admissions." What does this mean? Those people, scraping by with the minimum required to pass every class, barely able to keep up with even the bottom quartile of the passing students. Not to mention those who just routinely failed. Fortunately for them, after 2 failed courses, they were out. But the ones just barely scraping along, they got to stay in. And if they could scrape by for the first 2 years, and pass COMLEX step 1, they were golden, since noone fails clerkships... and step 2 is CAKE compared to step 1.

These people, and probably the majority of the bottom 30-50th percentiles would not pass the USMLE, no matter how much time they have to study, nor how many USMLE books they use, because they cannot synthesize the material and answer more than 1st or 2nd degree questions, which are few and far between on the USMLE.

But, because we have the AOA watching over our shoulders for us, we will never have to worry about this, because we will keep spewing out more mediocre graduates, with more diploma mills opening daily and higher tuition every year, until no physician can realistically enter primary care.

And then the DNPs and HMOs will have their dream: all primary care will be run by uneducated nurses who like to call themselves "doctor."

This is the future, people. Buckle up. :scared:
 
See my other post as to my opinion on this matter. In a nutshell the COMLEX Level 2 CE was an insult to my intelligence (or anyone else's for that matter).
 
Why not eliminate the USMLE and have a COMLEX-OMM for MDs?

The sooner we get rid of this "they're-better-we're-worse" complex the more respect DOs will have.

They're two different exams, they have different styles, they test the same knowledge. Period.
 
Why not eliminate the USMLE and have a COMLEX-OMM for MDs?

The sooner we get rid of this "they're-better-we're-worse" complex the more respect DOs will have.

They're two different exams, they have different styles, they test the same knowledge. Period.

sorry but that makes absolutely no sense and is a very disenginous argument. The majority of students take the USMLE (American and Foreign), MD's dont take both the COMLEX and USMLE like DO's choose to do. If you want to honestly uproot the fact that many DO's take two board exams, the only logical answer is to have the USMLE + OMM. You have to recognize the fact that many DO's CHOOSE to take both, it has nothing to do with MD's. They dont want to change anything, it's the DO students that are clamoring for it. I think it's YOU that has an inferiority complex that you cant even understand the easy fact that USMLE + OMM makes it better for ALL. So what if it the USMLE over the COMLEX....what does that have to do with osteopathic medicine? This is about what is best for the all students. It's obvious that students having to 2 board exams is not the best logical choice. USMLE + OMM serves the needs of the DO students who may have to take 2 exams, saves them money, and at the same time it doesnt upset the majority of medical students who normally just take the USMLE. If you want to be LOGICAL and PRACTICAL about it, instead of going to the "inferiority argument", the choice is obvious.

I guess your position is that LOGIC AND PRACTICALITY should always take a back seat to "We are not inferior, we must not give in...even at the cost of our own students"....who has the inferiority complex again????....Sorry I am not willing to sacrifce my future so I can claim some moral victory over some imaginative battle some people have between MDs and DO's. I will be a DO, I will be a proud DO, so stop trying to make it harder and harder for me to feel that way with this BS about some inferiority complex. I just want the easiest possible way to graduate and get a residency without someone telling me I have some inferiority complex. If I had an inferiority complex I would not be at a DO school for sure. You cant even argue logic and practicality without someone reverting back to AOA talkings points.
 
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my impression was that the COMLEX is not as bad an exam as it is made out to be on SDN.

The USMLE is an excellent exam that wants you to think, I agree.


However, the COMLEX is not the piece of **** it is made out to be on this website for Uber Type A's.
 
Yeah, I didn't think the COMLEX was at all horrible (I took it in summer 2007 - they may have improved it in recent years). It was different from the USMLE, and harder to study for just because I didn't know what to expect, but the questions were fair.
 
somebody said everyone should take the same exam to compare "apples to apples". WE ARE NOT M.D.s. while i learned most of what people at temple, drexel, penn, etc. learned...i also had this whole extra part of my cirriculum called omm. i don't see the point in the "+ omm exam" part of the "uslme + omm exam" idea. who's going to even look at that extra score...especially since omm is already losing its place in modern medicine? it would be a slap in the face to the people who helped build the schools we attend.

another post mentioned the lower mcat scores and how they might explain the higher d.o. fail rate on the usmle. i agree that it probably factors in...and i also think this is a big part of the reason why people are so anxious to act like m.d.s. i'm sure i'm not the only one who had an m.d. acceptance all lined up...but ended up at an osteopathic school because my mcat score wasn't where it needed to be. i've bought into the osteopathic philosophy while a lot of people are just going to a d.o. school because that's the school that took them and they secretely wish they were at the m.d. school across town. get over it and yourself...and be proud of your education. you owe at least that much to the school that gave you the honor of going there.

and finally...the comlex isn't that bad of an exam as others have said. i thought it was very straight forward. all this talk about how vague it was has me confused. every question you don't know isn't automatically poorly worded. i would definetly agree though that it is very unbalanced (my exam was loaded with neuro. but had zero nephrology) and should have had more molecular biology and biochemistry. you can't understand medicine these days without knowing how things are working at the cellular level.
 
We have been weighed, we have been measured, and, at the end of the day, we have been found wanting. The consensus here, and rightly so, is that no matter what we say, beg, or otherwise do, the AOA will keep with the COMLEX and maintain its "integrity." There should be no argument about that.

The other "issue" that is presented is that the "bottom 10-15% of the class" is weighing down the national pass rate for DO students by failing Step 1. My question to you is: does it matter? As a ________ physician, when your patients step into your office in pain or otherwise, are they going to start questioning your board scores? Absolutely not. Do the majority of Americans lurk through the internet, searching for national board pass rates for a particular suffix to a physician's name? Absolutely not. When a patient is experiencing mental, physical, or sometimes social discomfort, they head to their physician for help. For example, if a patient enters the ER with a bullet wound in their chest and must be rushed to the OR, does it really matter what their OLD fellow classmates scored on a board exam? Absolutely not. The point is that that individual did well enough in medical school, on the boards, and throughout their medical career to be certified as a surgeon (possibly cardiac, thoracic, spinal, or the like).

Just my two pennies into the pot. Take them for what they're worth.
 
my impression was that the COMLEX is not as bad an exam as it is made out to be on SDN.

The USMLE is an excellent exam that wants you to think, I agree.


However, the COMLEX is not the piece of **** it is made out to be on this website for Uber Type A's.

Exactly our point although you show it in a rather misconstrue way. Like you said USMLE is the better exam and it makes more sense for DO's to take USMLE's and a separate OMM exam. It will make lives of all medical students much easier..even those who are adamant about taking comlex because they have no choice but to take USMLEs, leaving no room for arguments.
 
somebody said everyone should take the same exam to compare "apples to apples". WE ARE NOT M.D.s. while i learned most of what people at temple, drexel, penn, etc. learned...i also had this whole extra part of my cirriculum called omm. i don't see the point in the "+ omm exam" part of the "uslme + omm exam" idea. who's going to even look at that extra score...especially since omm is already losing its place in modern medicine? it would be a slap in the face to the people who helped build the schools we attend.

another post mentioned the lower mcat scores and how they might explain the higher d.o. fail rate on the usmle. i agree that it probably factors in...and i also think this is a big part of the reason why people are so anxious to act like m.d.s. i'm sure i'm not the only one who had an m.d. acceptance all lined up...but ended up at an osteopathic school because my mcat score wasn't where it needed to be. i've bought into the osteopathic philosophy while a lot of people are just going to a d.o. school because that's the school that took them and they secretely wish they were at the m.d. school across town. get over it and yourself...and be proud of your education. you owe at least that much to the school that gave you the honor of going there.

and finally...the comlex isn't that bad of an exam as others have said. i thought it was very straight forward. all this talk about how vague it was has me confused. every question you don't know isn't automatically poorly worded. i would definetly agree though that it is very unbalanced (my exam was loaded with neuro. but had zero nephrology) and should have had more molecular biology and biochemistry. you can't understand medicine these days without knowing how things are working at the cellular level.

You sound defensive than coherent...this is not about MD V DO. Everytime someone suggests an idea to help DO's in the residency process its misunderstood to be a "MD envy" theme. IMO you have missed the point of this thread and have made it clear that you have an opinion on those who take USMLEs..that shows how you think. However on the flip side no one here is condemning those who only want to take COMLEX and feels proud to be a DO. Let me repeat the point of this thread again...a better written exam like USMLE and an OMM exam would justify our education. If you think an exam written exclusively for DO's makes us different then it would be really ludicrous. You claim the exam is unbalanced and you mention how medicine isn't understood without more emphasis on biochem, cellular biology but yet defend the existence of COMLEX. Now my friend that's what you call contradicting one self, however if you want more emphasis on basic sciences USMLE does a better job of that. I rest my case.
 
You sound defensive than coherent...this is not about MD V DO. Everytime someone suggests an idea to help DO's in the residency process its misunderstood to be a "MD envy" theme. IMO you have missed the point of this thread and have made it clear that you have an opinion on those who take USMLEs..that shows how you think. However on the flip side no one here is condemning those who only want to take COMLEX and feels proud to be a DO. Let me repeat the point of this thread again...a better written exam like USMLE and an OMM exam would justify our education. If you think an exam written exclusively for DO's makes us different then it would be really ludicrous. You claim the exam is unbalanced and you mention how medicine isn't understood without more emphasis on biochem, cellular biology but yet defend the existence of COMLEX. Now my friend that's what you call contradicting one self, however if you want more emphasis on basic sciences USMLE does a better job of that. I rest my case.

thank you...We got one side who wants a logical and pratical system for board exams to maximize our abilities to land the best possible residency and we have another side arguing an obviously noticeable "inferiority complex" about an MD vs. DO war most of us dont care about. What part of taking the USMLE makes me any less of a DO? Seriously, I dont want to limit my future because I want to claim some moral victory in an imaginative war of "MDs vs. DO's" that most people dont care about.
 
:sleep:

I'm not sure why people are against the idea of 1 test, in favor of wanting 2 tests.

It's called an "inferiority complex"...when you argue against logic and practicality that is the only answer I can come up with. Forcing DO's who may want to maximize their chances of a good residency to take only one test is giving up too much ground to the big bad MD's...:laugh:
 
The other "issue" that is presented is that the "bottom 10-15% of the class" is weighing down the national pass rate for DO students by failing Step 1. My question to you is: does it matter? As a ________ physician, when your patients step into your office in pain or otherwise, are they going to start questioning your board scores? Absolutely not. Do the majority of Americans lurk through the internet, searching for national board pass rates for a particular suffix to a physician's name? Absolutely not.

Just because patients don't look through it, doesn't mean its not important. Physicians should have demonstrated certain knowledge and have to pass a board exam, which they do in both the allopathic and osteopathic world, so that's fine. But it matters. The issue here is which exam is better at testing knowledge and application of that knowledge. That's it. If that's COMLEX - then that's great and DO should push for further adoption of that test in the allopathic world, but if its the USMLE, then DO should look at changing their test. In the end, its about doing your best to produce the most competent physicians possible.
 
Just because patients don't look through it, doesn't mean its not important. Physicians should have demonstrated certain knowledge and have to pass a board exam, which they do in both the allopathic and osteopathic world, so that's fine. But it matters. The issue here is which exam is better at testing knowledge and application of that knowledge. That's it. If that's COMLEX - then that's great and DO should push for further adoption of that test in the allopathic world, but if its the USMLE, then DO should look at changing their test. In the end, its about doing your best to produce the most competent physicians possible.

I agree with that wholeheartedly, but one of the arguments presented here is that people in the lower 10-15% of the class are taking the USMLE because they want a specific specialty or region and end up failing for any number of reasons. If you look at the statistics presented, since all DO's have to take the COMLEX, those lower 10-15% of students are not bringing down the national pass average more or less than usual. It is when they "feel" comfortable taking an exam that they are not truly prepared for (USMLE) that the bring down the national DO pass rate. If they were unable to pass the COMLEX and the USMLE, then I'm not worried they'll be a bad physician because I don't forsee them being a physician anytime in their recent future. However, being able to pass the COMLEX and not the USMLE shows a lack of understanding of what the COMLEX truly tests, as well as a lack of preparation for that material. It does not necessarily mean they'll be poor physicians.

With that said, standardization would be fantastic, but unlikely to occur during the near future. Maybe instead of arguing about personality traits, we could figure out a plausible and effective solution to the problem that could be presented (somehow) to the AOA.
 
Did you actually take both exams??? If so, our experiences were vastly different.

The COMLEX is a, & make no mistake about it, a poorly written exam. While you may think that the question had 'more of a clinical bearing' a person should not have to use part of their alloted time to figure out what the question is asking. On the COMLEX I spent usually somewhere btwn. 10-30 seconds just trying to figure out what the poorly worded question was trying to get out of me. On a timed exam, that is complete bunk (I stilled finished early, but only b/c I am a fast test-taker).

The USMLE may have more of what you consider not clinically relevant, but its goal is to test your understanding & knowledge of basic science material. At the end of every scenario & question you know exactly what the test-writer wants to know & you can then begin looking through the answers. Although the overall test was more difficult, I felt strongly that almost every question could be reasoned through. Sure there are more questions on cell/histo/biostats which aren't necessarily clincal, but that's not the point of the exam.

Bottomline is that the USMLE is a better WRITTEN exam.
I know this post is from page one, but in reading this thread I found it interesting that this almost perfectly captures my thoughts about USMLE vs. COMLEX. Almost.

The USMLE absolutely is a better written exam. There were plenty of questions on my COMLEX that were so bizarre that I couldn't figure out how to proceed. I think one even stopped in the middle of the last sentence - the one asking the question - because for the life of me I couldn't find a question anywhere in the stem.

But where I disagree is whether that makes the USMLE a better exam. Better written, yes, but better? COMLEX does require more clinical management knowledge, which one could argue is beyond the first two years of school, but DO schools claim to emphasize early clinical education. I know that from the two tests I took, I felt like one tested my knowledge of enzymes and pathways, molecules and receptor mechanisms, drug mechanisms and pathophysiology. The other tested my knowledge of patient presentations, appropriate pharmacotherapy or other clinical management, and recognition of pathology from imaging or symptomatology. It seems like one test helps to prove you're smart, the other helps to prove you can be a competent physician.

I just wish it was better written.
 
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Again, not to be argumentative or to flame anyone, but there is a lot of discussion on these forums about how similar MD and DOs are with regard to their education, and I agree (save for the OMM part, which I learned nothing about), but what accounts for the large difference in passage rates, and why would curricula need to be altered if you are taught the same stuff as allopaths? Are your curricula now based on just the short-sighted puropse of passing the COMLEX or being a good doc?

It seems as though DOs have access to all the same USMLE prep materials and question banks (Amazon.com) as allopath students, so differences in how questions are worded should be mitigated by proper preparation.

Just curious.

I'll take a stab at this one. I feel like the quality of education may be comparable (i.e. there are good and bad DO schools just as there are good and bad MD schools... while there may not be a John Hopkins of DO land, I think the "average" DO education is roughly comparable in quality to the "average" MD education), but the focus is different.

We learn the same drugs and bugs. We learn the same anatomy, even if the average DO student gets a little more exposure to it. We learn the same physiology and the same pathology. But past that, differences do start to become more apparent, and I for one do not think that osteo and allo are the same except for the inclusion or exclusion of OMM. Osteopathic education may cover biochem, but at least at my school (which seems to teach more biochem than many others) not to the degree necessary to do well on that part of the USMLE. And molecular is even further behind (though we did have several lectures on this at my school, and I did have several molecular biology questions on my COMLEX).

On the other hand, I'm not convinced that all allopathic students are prepared for the clinical aspects of the COMLEX exam, which I found to be quite different between the two. While the USMLE put a heavy emphasis on clinical diagnosis, the COMLEX goes further and puts a heavy emphasis on clinical management. I didn't have a single question on my USMLE asking what the appropriate drug was (unless it was a very obvious "which one does not have a contraindicated side effect" type of question), or what the best imaging study to order would be, or what the next best step in clinical management would be. I didn't have a single question on how to handle a certain obstetrics case, or manage a guy in back pain. Never was I asked when pharmacotherapy was appropriate or inappropriate, or when medical management was preferred over surgical management. At least a quarter of my COMLEX consisted of just that type of question.

But you could argue that this is more "step II" material, and you'd be right... if you are talking about the USMLE step II. Perhaps this type of early clinical education isn't stressed at many allopathic schools, or perhaps it just isn't tested on step 1. I'm not positive which is the case, but from talking to friends I have to wonder if it is the former.

And I'm not knocking the allopathic education approach in any way... if they think it makes more sense to teach basic science in the preclinical years (and test that), and clinical management in the clinical years, it would be hard to argue with their logic. But it is true that osteopathic education seems to emphasize an early dose of clinical training, well before we are actually on clinical rotations. And I can't say that this approach has no merit either... after all, the end goal is to train us to be physicians, not science teachers.

Bottom line is that the answer to your question is that while many pay lip service to the two extremes (osteo is just allo + OMM, or on the other end osteo has an entirely different philosophy in every way than allo), the truth is that the education is different... perhaps not in quality of teachers, or difficulty, or scope, but rather focus. There are some things that may be taught and tested in one branch that isn't so much in the other, and that is not limited to manipulation techniques.

Thus, being taught to "pass the COMLEX" isn't short sighted... it isn't just that the NBOME/AOA thinks that it is a good test, but also that this clinical-heavy approach makes for a good education - i.e., to "be a good doc" as you state. AOA believes those goals are one and the same, as they should be if you design a test to cover what you feel are essential competency areas.

But not all of those competency areas overlap between the two. And I might catch some flak for saying this, but I believe that if you removed all of the OMM specific content and questions from the COMLEX, pass rates for MD students taking it (hypothetically) would be lower than is the case for the USMLE, just as DO students have lower pass rates for the USMLE than for the COMLEX. I'll catch flack for this as well... but I don't think the difference would be quite as pronounced, even though I think it would exist. MD students have, on average, proven themselves to be better test takers (whether from intelligence, knowledge, discipline, test taking skills, whatever) and I'm sure that would carry over to some degree to the respective board exams.
 
How about this:

A new board exam, for both MD's and DO's. Not COMLEX. Not USMLE. Something new. DO's can get a certificate in OMM if they desire.

As someone who could have gone to either school, I find the whole seperation silly. I've worked with MD's and DO's and no one can tell the difference without looking at the letters after their name. Both "sides" are full of incest...we have MD's teaching and working at DO schools and vice versa. It's time to put the old differences aside and rejoin forces.

I do feel the MD's have done a better job of reaching out than the DO's. They've opened their residencies, made "non-discrimination" statements, etc...

This is pure speculation on my part, but I think that there will be a change in the AOA's stance in the coming years as more of the "old guard" goes away. Most DO's I've talked think many of the AOA's current stances on the issue are silly.

From what I've heard, I think both exams are good. The USMLE may be slightly better written, but the COMLEX is still a good test. Combining them would save alot of money, time, energy, confusion, and trouble. How is that bad again?
 
How about this:

A new board exam, for both MD's and DO's. Not COMLEX. Not USMLE. Something new. DO's can get a certificate in OMM if they desire.

As someone who could have gone to either school, I find the whole seperation silly. I've worked with MD's and DO's and no one can tell the difference without looking at the letters after their name. Both "sides" are full of incest...we have MD's teaching and working at DO schools and vice versa. It's time to put the old differences aside and rejoin forces.

I do feel the MD's have done a better job of reaching out than the DO's. They've opened their residencies, made "non-discrimination" statements, etc...

This is pure speculation on my part, but I think that there will be a change in the AOA's stance in the coming years as more of the "old guard" goes away. Most DO's I've talked think many of the AOA's current stances on the issue are silly.

From what I've heard, I think both exams are good. The USMLE may be slightly better written, but the COMLEX is still a good test. Combining them would save alot of money, time, energy, confusion, and trouble. How is that bad again?


That's absurd...why would MD's want to give up an exam that works for them? Again beggars can't be choosers, we need to adopt their system so it is a common medium for all medical students to go through into the match process. Almost everyone on this thread agrees COMLEX is a poorly written test and yet everyone presents a reason why there are merits of such a 2 exam system. Is it just me who sees beyond your pre-clinical years?!? When its come match time..don't you just want to have AOA and ACGME ask for one score? Esp all DO's will benefit incredibly since we won't have to suffer if AOA doesn't have a residency spot for you and you could easily transition into the ACGME with the USMLE score.
 
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