drug use in medical school

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I'm expecting most of my class to have an affinity for alcohol just like everyone else I've ever known. As an aside, I'm kind of annoyed that I can't call it crunk juice any more, since "crunk juice" is actually a commercial product. I thought of it first, lil john! You bastard!
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You know, I always thought it was a bit hypocritical that alcohol was legal and pot wasn't prior to med schol, but clinical rotations just really reinforce it.

I've seen a HELL of a lot of people in for cirrhosis, bleeding esophageal varices and put a hell of a lot more people on DT prophylaxis. And the people I hear who smoke pot tend to be the thirty year in for cellulitis or a fall i.e. unrelated to his usage) who sheepishly admits to smoking pot every once in a while on history. And don't get me started on freaking cigarettes.
 
So let's steer this thread in another direction: Mushrooms. 3 2 1 GO.
 
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Dr. Mario uses mushrooms and Nintendo hasn't fired him, so they must think it does not affect his performance.
 
So do they drug test you frequently in your last two years of med school? What about residency?
 
Should pot be legal? Yes.
Would I ever risk my whole damn career for a freaking joint? Hell no.

You would have to be an old-school Grade A ****** to put your career on the line by smoking pot.


If I was a lawyer knew a doctor smoked pot, I would convince any patient to bring a multi million dollar frivolous lawsuit against him, and regardless of how stupid my claim was, I bet I'd win and the doctor would lose his license.
 
Lokhtar said:
If I was a lawyer knew a doctor smoked pot, I would convince any patient to bring a multi million dollar frivolous lawsuit against him, and regardless of how stupid my claim was, I bet I'd win and the doctor would lose his license.
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and people wonder why health care costs are so ridiculous.

gotta love that good ole' American "sue'um" mentality. :hungover:
 
TexasMD2B said:
and people wonder why health care costs are so ridiculous.

gotta love that good ole' American "sue'um" mentality. :hungover:
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Well thankfully, I'm not a lawyer. If you're stupid enough to do pot though, I have no sympathy when you get sued and lose your license and a whole bunch of money,
 
KublaiKhan said:
Marijuana is a schedule III drug whereas cocaine is schedule II. Greater penalties for possession of coke than weed.
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This is not true. Marijuana is a schedule I drug and cocaine is a schedule II drug. So, based on scheduling, cocaine has more potential therapeutic uses and marijuana is more addicting. Hey, I didn't say it made sense.

Also, the penalty is usually dependent on the amount, not the type.
 
I once met a medical student who said, " You know, I used to smoke pot occasionally in college and then I started med-school. Now, I smoke every day, just to get by." Really smart too, close to the top of his class!
 
Lokhtar said:
If I was a lawyer knew a doctor smoked pot, I would convince any patient to bring a multi million dollar frivolous lawsuit against him, and regardless of how stupid my claim was, I bet I'd win and the doctor would lose his license.
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The four D's of Malpractice:

The physician's dereliction of duty directly lead to damage.

You have to fulfill all four D's to have a case.

Now duty, you don't have any problem with because the physician you're sueing is obviously the treating physician. This is an issue when people sue whole departments or hospitals who had nothing to do with a case.

Derelection, you could convince a jury that by using a substance it affected the physician's judgment and ability. Talk about this later.

However, damages are where you have problems. First, you said "any patient", which doesn't work because that includes those with good outcomes. So you've got to narrow only to those that had problems. You can't sue a doctor because you found out he was high during your appendectomy if everything came out okay.

And now we have where directly comes in. You'd have to prove the connection between the physician using marijuana and that leading to a bad outcome, DIRECTLY.

Now, that's not to say it can't be done. If you can prove the guy was toking up int imes when he was seeing patients, you'd probably win. But if you just know that Doctor whoever likes to toke it up when he's on vacation, you can't prove a connection.

Now, you could go the licensing route, but that's neither here nor there.
 
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Juries hate doctors, a doctor making $300,000 high on weed vs. a weeping victim and you'd win a lot of cases on emotion alone, assuming your case was strong enough to not get thrown out immediately.
 
Depakote said:
I'm not taking sides in this debate but you seem to want to refuse anecdotal evidence. Here are some papers:

The acute effects of cannabinoids on memory in humans: a review., Ranganathan, Mohini et al, Psychopharmacology, vol. 188, no. 4 (2006 Nov): 425-44. ISSN: 0033-3158


Neuropsychological deficits in long-term frequent cannabis users. Messinis, Lambros et al, Neurology. vol. 66, no. 5 (2006 Mar 14): 737-9. 1526-632X


Dose-related neurocognitive effects of marijuana use. Bolla, K I et al, Neurology. vol. 59, no. 9 (2002 Nov 12): 1337-43. ISSN: 0028-3878


(I'm sure I cited those wrong, but you should be able to find them with pub-med)
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I completely agree with all of this, but here is an article showing how smoking pot is good for you.

Cannabinoids promote embryonic and adult hippocampus neurogenesis and produce anxiolytic- and antidepressant-like effects.

Abstract:
The hippocampal dentate gyrus in the adult mammalian brain contains neural stem/progenitor cells (NS/PCs) capable of generating new neurons, i.e., neurogenesis. Most drugs of abuse examined to date decrease adult hippocampal neurogenesis, but the effects of cannabis (marijuana or cannabinoids) on hippocampal neurogenesis remain unknown. This study aimed at investigating the potential regulatory capacity of the potent synthetic cannabinoid HU210 on hippocampal neurogenesis and its possible correlation with behavioral change. We show that both embryonic and adult rat hippocampal NS/PCs are immunoreactive for CB1 cannabinoid receptors, indicating that cannabinoids could act on CB1 receptors to regulate neurogenesis. This hypothesis is supported by further findings that HU210 promotes proliferation, but not differentiation, of cultured embryonic hippocampal NS/PCs likely via a sequential activation of CB1 receptors, G(i/o) proteins, and ERK signaling. Chronic, but not acute, HU210 treatment promoted neurogenesis in the hippocampal dentate gyrus of adult rats and exerted anxiolytic- and antidepressant-like effects. X-irradiation of the hippocampus blocked both the neurogenic and behavioral effects of chronic HU210 treatment, suggesting that chronic HU210 treatment produces anxiolytic- and antidepressant-like effects likely via promotion of hippocampal neurogenesis.
 
Does anyone know if or which med schools drug test you? WashU straight up says in their app they drug test everyone before you start but what about other schools (I'm especially curious about the UCs). While I would never get high around patients I would hate to give it up entirely.
 
"drug use it medical school"

There are lots of different stances people take on the topic of drug use in a professional setting. Although you can defend various positions and etc all day long, the plain fact is (and I think everyone knows this) it isn't a good idea.
 
Sinai sends a drug screen when you're accepted.
 
Also, doctors should never drink . . . or eat fatty foods . . . or say bad words. Booga booga - people make their own choices knowing the consequences, 'nuff said.
 
A friend of mine said that half his medical school class was addicted to speed or used ritalin off prescription to cram in mass amounts of studying.
 
valacious said:
Does anyone know if or which med schools drug test you? WashU straight up says in their app they drug test everyone before you start but what about other schools (I'm especially curious about the UCs). While I would never get high around patients I would hate to give it up entirely.
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:thumbup:
 
I heard from a friend in Florida that you can get high off cat urine? Its called Cheesing. A lot of kids do it these days. They'd sneak some cats out during recess, go to the corner and just cheese their brains out.
 
Aynsl156 said:
Sinai sends a drug screen when you're accepted.
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Well I work at Sinai and they just test all their employees, including med students, grad students postdocs... right before you can officially be accepted.

As for weed, I know a ton of students that do it and just like it. It really isn't that bad as long as you keep good judgment. If you are smart and know your own body you will not do it in the week of a test or something like that. I know a friend that actually does a lot better on weed because he is so smart and his brain is running all over the place all the time. He intentionally take a hit or two before sitting down to study or going to a test.

As for cocaine, I know a ton of doctors, especially neuroscience and neurosurgery residents, that blow recreationally. I don't know if I agree with the use, however, I know they are all extremely smart and talented people that use good judgment for the most part (we are not all perfect). No one wants to harm any of their patients.

In the end, people are always too judgmental when it come to drug use. I do think marijuana should be legalized because far to many people are stilling in jail and having their lives ruined because of a freaking joint.

You need to know your body and how it handle the drugs. Just be smart.
 
TRuSchool said:
I heard from a friend in Florida that you can get high off cat urine? Its called Cheesing. A lot of kids do it these days. They'd sneak some cats out during recess, go to the corner and just cheese their brains out.
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you bumed a thread from January for a South Park reference?
 
Dr.Pdizzle said:
I'm shocked, who would of thought that SDN would comprise of so many yes-men? :p Just because something is "illegal" doesn't make its use immoral or unethical. Maybe the law is unethical? Who are we protecting, and from what? Why is everyone trying to keep the potman down? I'd hate to hang around you guys in the roaring-twenties ;)

I know this much is true: if everyone in this country were entitled their right to a joint, we'd live in a happier society than the one we live in today. No? Surely you cannot argue that society is just moving along swimmingly with its current laws against pot, can you? Just look at Michigan's economy for crying out loud, they almost shutdown state services the other day because they couldn't agree on what else to tax and their budget-spending has spun out of control.

Ding! ding! ding! Hello, hahvad grads in East Lansing and elsewhere, if you legalized pot and taxed the hell out of it, and stopped overcrowding jails involving petty drug crimes, you'd be able to take the revenue to support the plethora of social programs that the state can't afford. I don't know about you, but I'd rather have my taxes go toward an educational program over helping to flip the bill for some bunco rehabilitation program that charges 60$ a day over an eight month period to "rehabilitate" a dirt-poor adult from his "addiction" to marijuana. :rolleyes:

If you want to continue to believe the same fire and brimstone speech given to you as a child, that pot's the devil and anyone who uses it is a mindless, driveling idiot whose life is spiraling out of control, that's fine, I won't try to change your mind. Just know that pot isn't the bogeyman, and there's no tooth-fairy either.
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GREAT point, Personally, I think it is ok to do whatever as long as it does not hurt anyone else. And that means ANYTHING, if it was illegal to play guitar, I would still do it, YES... why? Becuase my playing is not hurting anyone else, as far as weed goes, if I was in a position of responsibility (doctor) I would seriously reconsider if I should smoke because it has a possibility of affecting my performance as a physician, however if I am just a student in college/med school, and my responsibilities are to only myself...I would smoke

just my $0.02:)
 
Well it was a drug use in medical school topic. Just wondering if anyone cheeses. jeez...More importantly, I'm not your friend, guy.
 
Citation?

arb011 said:
I completely agree with all of this, but here is an article showing how smoking pot is good for you.

Cannabinoids promote embryonic and adult hippocampus neurogenesis and produce anxiolytic- and antidepressant-like effects.

Abstract:
The hippocampal dentate gyrus in the adult mammalian brain contains neural stem/progenitor cells (NS/PCs) capable of generating new neurons, i.e., neurogenesis. Most drugs of abuse examined to date decrease adult hippocampal neurogenesis, but the effects of cannabis (marijuana or cannabinoids) on hippocampal neurogenesis remain unknown. This study aimed at investigating the potential regulatory capacity of the potent synthetic cannabinoid HU210 on hippocampal neurogenesis and its possible correlation with behavioral change. We show that both embryonic and adult rat hippocampal NS/PCs are immunoreactive for CB1 cannabinoid receptors, indicating that cannabinoids could act on CB1 receptors to regulate neurogenesis. This hypothesis is supported by further findings that HU210 promotes proliferation, but not differentiation, of cultured embryonic hippocampal NS/PCs likely via a sequential activation of CB1 receptors, G(i/o) proteins, and ERK signaling. Chronic, but not acute, HU210 treatment promoted neurogenesis in the hippocampal dentate gyrus of adult rats and exerted anxiolytic- and antidepressant-like effects. X-irradiation of the hippocampus blocked both the neurogenic and behavioral effects of chronic HU210 treatment, suggesting that chronic HU210 treatment produces anxiolytic- and antidepressant-like effects likely via promotion of hippocampal neurogenesis.
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During MSI, a classmate of mine starting talking out loud in one of our labs about how much pot she used to smoke in high school and college. It was clear she thought she was really cool because she smoked pot. All the rest of us could think was "how stupid can you be?" I'm sure many (most?) of us in the room had tried it before, but we weren't gallavanting the point around in front of the class with profs and TAs in the room.

I highly suggest that if you use/have used/sell or whatever, just don't talk about it.
 
The following is from: "Delta-9-tetrahydrocannabinol (THC) protects cardiac cells from hypoxia via CB2 receptor activation and nitric oxide production" --Shmist, Y.A. --Molecular and Cellular Biochemistry 283: 75-83, 2006.

"THC has been found to protect cardiac cells from hypoxia by induction of nitric oxide production via CB2 receptor."

and

"NO produced during pre-conditioning confers heart cells with a resistance to hypoxic damage. Here it was found that THC induces an increase in the iNOS (induced NO synthase) level in heart cells via CB2-receptors and NO production."

and

"This study provides evidence that THC exerts cardioprotection in cardiomyocyte cells subjected to hypoxia, via CB2 receptors and NO production."

and finally

"This research demonstrates that THC has beneficial effects on cardiac cells."

Basically, NO is a vasodilator, and has the ability to "pre-condition" the heart. This pre-conditioning means that the cells exposed to NO develop a resistance to hypoxic damage, meaning that there is a decrease in damage (compared to cells not exposed to THC) caused by ischemia.

THC ---> CB2 receptor ---> production of iNOS, which produces NO = cardioprotection.

ummm...that was long...

Legalize It!!
 
I'm not your guy, buddy!

It's funny nobody on SDN has mentioned anything about crack!
 
Did we cover this already?

I know a LOT of medical students who use ritalin, etc. to help them focus and study for exams. That's ok because it's legal? Gimme a break.

As for smoking pot, many people have a scrip for weed, and use it for everything from chronic pain to anxiety to glaucoma. There something wrong with that? If a med student in his clinical years has a scrip for marijuana use for anxiety, and smokes after his shift to unwind, who are you to say it's wrong? You're not a doc.
 
TouchOfGrey said:
I know a LOT of medical students who use ritalin, etc. to help them focus and study for exams. That's ok because it's legal? Gimme a break.

As for smoking pot, many people have a scrip for weed, and use it for everything from chronic pain to anxiety to glaucoma. There something wrong with that? If a med student in his clinical years has a scrip for marijuana use for anxiety, and smokes after his shift to unwind, who are you to say it's wrong?
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Except that medical students aren't considered normal patients as far as their school is concerned. Getting caught using any illicit drugs is an expellable offense everywhere (though most schools would at least give you a warning the first time). If you're willing to risk that, be my guest.
 
.
 
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ryandote said:
Is it an "illicit drug" in CA with a med marijuana permit and current prescription?
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Well, I'm no expert on the legal status of marijuana in california.

But I do know that students have been dismissed at my medical school for smoking pot. I thought it was an excessive penalty, but what can you do? I suppose you could sue them, but I've yet to hear of any student returning to a program after a lawsuit.
 
Terpskins99 said:
Well, I'm no expert on the legal status of marijuana in california.

But I do know that students have been dismissed at my medical school for smoking pot. I thought it was an excessive penalty, but what can you do? I suppose you could sue them, but I've yet to hear of any student returning to a program after a lawsuit.
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First you come out with this know-it-all, blanket statement, then you admit you don't know what you're talking about.
 
arb011 said:
I completely agree with all of this, but here is an article showing how smoking pot is good for you.

Cannabinoids promote embryonic and adult hippocampus neurogenesis and produce anxiolytic- and antidepressant-like effects.

Abstract:
The hippocampal dentate gyrus in the adult mammalian brain contains neural stem/progenitor cells (NS/PCs) capable of generating new neurons, i.e., neurogenesis. Most drugs of abuse examined to date decrease adult hippocampal neurogenesis, but the effects of cannabis (marijuana or cannabinoids) on hippocampal neurogenesis remain unknown. This study aimed at investigating the potential regulatory capacity of the potent synthetic cannabinoid HU210 on hippocampal neurogenesis and its possible correlation with behavioral change. We show that both embryonic and adult rat hippocampal NS/PCs are immunoreactive for CB1 cannabinoid receptors, indicating that cannabinoids could act on CB1 receptors to regulate neurogenesis. This hypothesis is supported by further findings that HU210 promotes proliferation, but not differentiation, of cultured embryonic hippocampal NS/PCs likely via a sequential activation of CB1 receptors, G(i/o) proteins, and ERK signaling. Chronic, but not acute, HU210 treatment promoted neurogenesis in the hippocampal dentate gyrus of adult rats and exerted anxiolytic- and antidepressant-like effects. X-irradiation of the hippocampus blocked both the neurogenic and behavioral effects of chronic HU210 treatment, suggesting that chronic HU210 treatment produces anxiolytic- and antidepressant-like effects likely via promotion of hippocampal neurogenesis.
Click to expand...


Um, if it isn't THC, then it isn't really that relevant to smoking pot. There are a lot of cannabinoids out there, and the receptors are quite widespread throughout the cortex, so I am not surprised that certain cannabinoids would have a regulatory effect. Using this as evidence of the benefits of smoked cannabis is quite a leap. You know what else makes you less anxious? Opium. Does that mean you should smoke it? No.

The issue is not whether cannabis has some sort of health benefit, though technically that is what prevents it from being moved from Schedule I. Even if it has a health benefit, it still has to be shown to be significantly more effective than currently available therapies, given its potential for abuse.

I'm all for legalization, but let's not pretend that it's a healthy habit.
 
TouchOfGrey said:
First you come out with this know-it-all, blanket statement, then you admit you don't know what you're talking about.
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Hey genius, read again. I never claimed to know what the status of marijuana was in california. Nor do I really care.

But last I checked, I'm the only one between us that is actually IN medical school. And I have seen someone get tossed for using drugs.
 
ryandote said:
Is it an "illicit drug" in CA with a med marijuana permit and current prescription?
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From what I understand, it is very difficult for a doctor to write a legitimate prescription for pot (there is less than a dozen of these). The thousands of kids in CA with "med marijuana" have a recommendation to use pot signed by a doctor (albeit shady one).

The local authorities don't target the "medical" pot clubs, but the feds do crack down on occasion.
 
BigRedder said:
Um, if it isn't THC, then it isn't really that relevant to smoking pot. There are a lot of cannabinoids out there, and the receptors are quite widespread throughout the cortex, so I am not surprised that certain cannabinoids would have a regulatory effect. Using this as evidence of the benefits of smoked cannabis is quite a leap. You know what else makes you less anxious? Opium. Does that mean you should smoke it? No.

The issue is not whether cannabis has some sort of health benefit, though technically that is what prevents it from being moved from Schedule I. Even if it has a health benefit, it still has to be shown to be significantly more effective than currently available therapies, given its potential for abuse.

I'm all for legalization, but let's not pretend that it's a healthy habit.
Click to expand...

You're right, there are a lot of cannabinoids and cannabinoid receptors. As I'm sure you know, THC is one of those cannabinoids. THC acts on CB1 receptors in the brain, the exact receptor that was studied in this paper. Therefore, it is relevant to smoking pot because the "synthetic cannabinoid" that was used in this study acts on the exact same receptor as THC.
 
Oh, I forgot to mention, I'm not saying that smoking pot is a healthy habit nor am I saying that everyone who smokes it will experience neurogenesis. I've actually talked with people who do research in neuroscience and drug use and the literature usually indicates that the amount of marijuana you would actually have to smoke to have neurogenesis is most likely not possible for the average pot head to achieve.

There were so many people posting on here saying how evil and terrible it is to smoke pot, I thought I would be a smart a$s and counter their argument.​
 
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