Drunk drivers? We can't report them, huh?

[Angry Birds]

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I hate these people. I get them so often. Skunk drunk, car crash, no seat belt. Police don't care since they dump them on us. No charges filed against them. WTF.

Nothing we can do right?

 

[gamerEMdoc]

The police typically charge them, its just drunk driving isnt something that gets you jail time. So they dump them in the ED if they are worried about injuries, but they still get their charges in down the road.

 

[miacomet]

I live in a rich town, and it seems like only the poors get charged, which makes me angry. The wealthy old ladies tooling around town three sheets to the wind get away with it every time. It's angering. And dangerous.

 

[Vandalia]

Exactly. As in the two previous posts, it is not what you (they) know, it is what you (they) can prove in court.

 

[DrDrummer]

Just some insight from the other side. I’m a cop and unless there is a “wheel witness” you cannot charge them for dui. That’s further changed in the past year to that wheel witness having to be a law enforcement officer.

Can you share a citation or policy or otherwise proof that this is actually a thing? I have heard this from a few officers this year and it strikes me as ridiculous. It may be harder to get a conviction, or convince a DA to prosecute, but the requirement of a "wheel witness" to cite or charge or arrest seems like a made up thing extrapolated from the lines of argument that POS "Beat your DUI" Attorneys propagate about how to escape a drunk driving charge.

 

[Vandalia]

It’s our policy as well as the policy of the state agency that does the majority of dui’s in my state (Florida but keeping my agency private).

I imagine that this policy stems from the refusal of the SA office to prosecute these because they’re contested effectively and consistently. Thus hurting the attorneys conviction rate if they take them to trial. And every dui is a near guaranteed trial if it’s their second. The first being pled out as a wet reckless.


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It is certainly possible to get a conviction on a DUI/DWI case with non-police witnesses and circumstantial evidence. However, prosecutors have discretion as to the cases they will prosecute. As an extreme example, in a neighboring county the prosecutor is at war with the sheriff. One deputy has a criminal record and has been caught in untruthful testimony. The prosecutor has said he will not prosecute any case that involves that deputy. Of course the deputy in question is the sheriff's son.

And people on the coast say there is nothing to do for entertainment in "flyover country."

 

[miacomet]

Often times less educated people who also tend to be poor say a lot of dumb **** to officers. Wealthy people tend to be respectful and or shut their mouth and ask for a lawyer. The latter being the preferred method of not going to jail. Also more effective.

I’d encourage you to do a ride along in a busy city.


Edit: just as an example. I had one of those “poors” pulled over for drunk driving. A Hispanic middle aged female. She was relatively decent and so I told her to call her husband to pick her up. Her decision? Punch me with a closed fist. Do all people make bad decisions? Sure. It’s just that some people tend to make a lot more bad decisions and that is usually reflected in their socioeconomic status.

1. The old ladies (and various other cases) I am referring to were actually in accidents they caused. Still no charges.
2. They did not ask for a lawyer because they were not charged, or even breathalyzed or questioned. Just a free ride to the hospital.

There is ample evidence that wealthy, nonimmigrant, nonminority populations are charged less severely and less frequently than others. And you don't need to be condescending. Why are you on this forum? Are you a doctor cop? I'd encourage you to read and get an education.

 

[Apollyon]

1. The old ladies (and various other cases) I am referring to were actually in accidents they caused. Still no charges.
2. They did not ask for a lawyer because they were not charged, or even breathalyzed or questioned. Just a free ride to the hospital.

There is ample evidence that wealthy, nonimmigrant, nonminority populations are charged less severely and less frequently than others. And you don't need to be condescending. Why are you on this forum? Are you a doctor cop? I'd encourage you to read and get an education.

That's just a little harsh, friend. I didn't read it as condescending.

 

[miacomet]

That's just a little harsh, friend. I didn't read it as condescending.

I find the suggestion that I do a ridealong (as though anecdotal evidence is all that matters, or that I'm just naive) both ridiculous and dismissive. The fact that I disagree with his or her statements is not evidence that I'm uninformed, and it shouldn't be construed as such.

 

[Angry Birds]

1. The old ladies (and various other cases) I am referring to were actually in accidents they caused. Still no charges.
2. They did not ask for a lawyer because they were not charged, or even breathalyzed or questioned. Just a free ride to the hospital.

There is ample evidence that wealthy, nonimmigrant, nonminority populations are charged less severely and less frequently than others. And you don't need to be condescending. Why are you on this forum? Are you a doctor cop? I'd encourage you to read and get an education.

All the Hispanic ones punch him in the face though.

 

[dadaddadaBATMAN]

I find the suggestion that I do a ridealong (as though anecdotal evidence is all that matters, or that I'm just naive) both ridiculous and dismissive. The fact that I disagree with his or her statements is not evidence that I'm uninformed, and it shouldn't be construed as such.

I didn’t see much condescension in it either.

You could just as easily quote statistics about how em docs don’t treat Hispanics or other minorities pain appropriately. If a premed came in here filled with righteous indignation about our specialty you might advise them to gain some practical experience to see other barriers to care in actual practice/shadowing.

Expertise in medicine doesn’t make us particular experts on law enforcement: he/she isn’t saying you are uniformed, just that the experience is different from his perspective.

 

[Apollyon]

I find the suggestion that I do a ridealong (as though anecdotal evidence is all that matters, or that I'm just naive) both ridiculous and dismissive. The fact that I disagree with his or her statements is not evidence that I'm uninformed, and it shouldn't be construed as such.

I rode along with Greenville (SC) County Sheriff's Office (GCSO) in 2008 (you may notice them from "Live PD"). It was eye opening, and, not to mention, a LOT of fun. Two words I would not apply would be either "ridiculous" or "dismissive". But, that's me.

I didn't say you were uninformed. I don't know where you got that.

 

[enalli]

You could just as easily quote statistics about how em docs don’t treat Hispanics or other minorities pain appropriately. If a premed came in here filled with righteous indignation about our specialty you might advise them to gain some practical experience to see other barriers to care in actual practice/shadowing.

That's certainly the answer I would give if I did not want to ask myself some uncomfortable questions.

 

[deleted109597]

It's always interesting the perspectives we get from this. Just look at the forum questions regarding police in the department. Or, heaven forbid, look on EM Docs. Police are very polarizing. Half of the docs state things like "we help them out when we can, and they help us out when they can, we are all on the front line" and half are like NWA with their attitudes and stonewall everything the police do. There's a middle ground, an seeing things from their point of view is important.
It's clearly evident based on thisOP ED in the NYTimes from 2016. Opinion | Police Officers Need to Get Better at CPR
Simply asking someone to see things from another point of view isn't condescending. There are ways to be condescending about it, but I don't see how. However, telling someone to get an education, or calling them names is unacceptable. The mods won't have it.

 

[AMEHigh]

Often times less educated people who also tend to be poor say a lot of dumb **** to officers. Wealthy people tend to be respectful and or shut their mouth and ask for a lawyer. The latter being the preferred method of not going to jail. Also more effective.

I’d encourage you to do a ride along in a busy city.


Edit: just as an example. I had one of those “poors” pulled over for drunk driving. A Hispanic middle aged female. She was relatively decent and so I told her to call her husband to pick her up. Her decision? Punch me with a closed fist. Do all people make bad decisions? Sure. It’s just that some people tend to make a lot more bad decisions and that is usually reflected in their socioeconomic status.

How do you know someone’s education and economic status when you pull them over? Are police now asking for license, registration, copy of diploma and bank account balance?

 

[AMEHigh]

My response was in reference to Mia. Please see context. Or do you truly think I asked for a diploma?

When you work in the er do you think that everyone is well educated? Or do you makes assumptions based upon your interactions? Because I use clues such as car maintenance, cleanliness, proper English, ability to write, address on DL.

And if your next response is why should I care about any of that. I don’t. Mia is the one who cared and I responded.


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Yes I read the whole thread and understood your response. Yes we all have implicit bias, but no I do my best not to make assumptions when I see patients. And I certainly don’t think that poor people are making more bad decisions, I realize that societal power dynamics are working for the wealthy and against poor people. So as someone who is often stereotyped I was wondering what criteria you use to stereotype people since you said that "poors" tend to make more bad decisions.

I’m sure that if you pulled me over you’d lump me in your "poors" category based on a quick glance and assumptions.

If you are planning to go in to healthcare I implore you to do your best to get rid of such thinking and do your best to fight your biases and assumptions. The evidence is clear that medical providers are biased and certain groups of people have worse health outcomes due to these biases, not just because "poors" typically make worse decisions.

So yes I do think that you should care about it, we should all care about it because we have people’s lives in our hands (this also extends to police officers).

 

[enalli]

This entire thread has turned into idiocy.

- Poster: Unconscious bias exists.
- You: StOp ViRtUe SiGnAlInG!!!!1111

Nice.

 

[d2305]

From watching Live PD, a burned out tag light is one of the excuses to stop someone. Kind of lame as the tag is easy to see (Fl). I'm amazed at how many drivers have no license.

 

[Apollyon]

From watching Live PD, a burned out tag light is one of the excuses to stop someone. Kind of lame as the tag is easy to see (Fl). I'm amazed at how many drivers have no license.

A burned out/missing tail light is in violation of the law. That gives PD probable cause (PC) to pull the vehicle over. Then, if there is the odor of marijuana or alcohol, for example, well, that's someone who really doesn't know how to do it.

 

[GeneralVeers]

My police friends say they generally wouldn't give a ticket to someone identifying themselves as an EM doc. Hence I do everything I can to cooperate with them in the department, make their jobs easier, and try to get them out as quickly as possible if they have to stay with a suspect.

I work in one department that has PD in the hospital (off-duty but in uniform) 24 hours a day, and one that has rent-a-cop security. I vastly prefer having the police officer in the building. The uniform/gun usually de-escalates most situations very quickly, and in those where he can't, he is able to call for backup which arrives in a few minutes. I feel much safer for myself, the staff, and patients. Both hospitals I referred to are sedate community hospitals, not county gun & knife shows.

 

[AMEHigh]

I do not deal with all of society, I deal with the criminal element of society.

Last I checked police are supposed to "protect and serve" everyone, no?

Last I checked people are innocent until proven guilty, no?

I’ve been stereotyped and hassled by police, so have my friends and family members, yet none of us are criminals.

But if you think you’re some special case that doesn’t have implicit bias that impacts your professional life, although your comments point to the contrary, keep on living in a delusion.

(My apologies in derailing the thread. I just thought it was somewhat relevant to bring up since we all know that poor black people get convicted more often and sentenced more harsher than white people and the discussion above was about drunk driving & arrests/convictions).

 

[thegenius]

Seriously, thank you for doing a ride along. It truly is a fun experience and is quite eye-opening. A lot of people, having never experienced the job think that all cops are racist, infringe on peoples rights, are dumb and uncaring. That is the complete opposite experience I've had but some people know it all before they know anything.

In all reality, I think all ER docs should do a ride along. Maybe they/you will release suspects faster so we can get back on the road more quickly. Because a DUI without the hospital wait is 4 hours at a minimum. Add in the time on scene and hospital and it can take half the shift, all the while your zone partner is taking all the calls and reports. Who knows if they get into a fight or need a backup and you're at the DUI center/hosp. All that for a misdemeanor charge that will get pled down to a reckless driving ticket. Often times its just not worth it with regard to the charge not sticking and leaving your zone partner alone for hours upon hours hoping nothing bad happens.

My guess is the justice system has a strong desire to put criminals behind bars, and if they are choosing to "cite and release" or not try to pursue charges then there is good reason for it. I strongly support our cops out there trying to keep the peace. I can think of only a small handful of times where I thought they could have done something better...on occasion they want fairly quick medical clearance and we can't give it to them, and they say something like "well if I can't take them to jail within the next 30 minutes then I'm going to release them..." and it makes me feel like I'm the one returning a criminal to society.

 

[thegenius]

How do you know someone’s education and economic status when you pull them over? Are police now asking for license, registration, copy of diploma and bank account balance?

Same way you know in the ED. It's a hunch based on several factors. It's called profiling. All ER docs profile. All people profile every day.

 

[thegenius]

Again, I don't pull people for being poor or seek those that I think are poor. I specifically place myself in high crime areas so that I catch criminals. Or do you believe that police should be equally dispersed throughout the city? Because you know where crime doesn't typically happen? Rich neighbourhoods.

Or they are real good at hiding it.

 

[AMEHigh]

Same way you know in the ED. It's a hunch based on several factors. It's called profiling. All ER docs profile. All people profile every day.

Yes I said that above. I said everyone does it and we all have implicit bias. I then went on to state that that impliciat bias has been shown to have adverse health outcomes for people of color and those with lower socioeconomic status, thus we should all work to overcome our biases.

As someone on both sides of the coin who is stereotyped regularly and who also takes care of patients I’m acutely aware of how society works. Thus I try to do my best to overcome my implicit biases and stay educated on such issues.

 

[AMEHigh]

And lol that people don’t call 911 on innocent people. It shouldn’t be laughable because that’s how people get killed. But it’s really disturbing that you think everyone who gets a 911 call is a criminal. Again I’ve been stereotyped, my family and friends have been stereotyped and this includes getting 911 called on them, essentially for being Black, typically in "white spaces."

One of my earliest memories as a child is my mom getting pulled over and our car and my mom getting searched because of course a Black woman in a nice car in a certain area was obviously a drug dealer.

If you care to educate yourself I’m sure if you google you will find many recent stories, so I won’t go in to detail. If one who is a police officer can’t recognize that implicit bias leads people to call 911 on innocent people that confirms my suspicions that nothing is ever going to change.

 

[thegenius]

Yes I said that above. I said everyone does it and we all have implicit bias. I then went on to state that that impliciat bias has been shown to have adverse health outcomes for people of color and those with lower socioeconomic status, thus we should all work to overcome our biases.

I dunno if biases themselves have adverse health outcomes, if anything I usually do a little more for those in the ED who don't have a clue about their health and have no followup (to an extent). Perhaps those with lower socioeconomic status and poor education have worse health outcomes. My guess is that this is a very difficult thing to study, to control for various variable, to try to design studies without (or minimal) biases and confounders to come up with a conclusion.

 

[thegenius]

maybe this thread should be closed....it's not even about (emergency) medicine anymore

 

[AMEHigh]

I dunno if biases themselves have adverse health outcomes, if anything I usually do a little more for those in the ED who don't have a clue about their health and have no followup (to an extent). Perhaps those with lower socioeconomic status and poor education have worse health outcomes. My guess is that this is a very difficult thing to study, to control for various variable, to try to design studies without (or minimal) biases and confounders to come up with a conclusion.

Yes bias has been linked to adverse health outcomes. Obviously these aren’t double blinded randomized control trials in most cases. However, some studies on paper, such as the one in which black women were sent for cardiac cath less frequently than all other groups, have been close to the real world (participants were given the exact same scenarios and clinical situations, it was just that race and gender were switched around). Or studies coming out of the ED in which pediatric patients of color with appendicitis were offered no or very minimal pain meds while white pediatric patients with appendicitis were offered everything, including opioids.

So yes there is data and research on this exact topic. I wish we were all given more education about this overall.

I will stop posting as I know this is way off topic now, but I do wish more health professionals would take these issues seriously and open to learning more.

 

[AMEHigh]

The sure sign of someone who is losing an argument is taking comments to the extreme. "You think everyone...."

I pull over a lot of people. I ask them to search their car all the time. It's consensual. It's legal. It's not because they're black. Does everything come down to race with you? You honestly care more about race than any cop I've ever met. You take your earliest memory and attach so many racist thoughts to it. Thoughts that you have no idea of - or do you read minds?

Also, nice cars in bad neighborhoods are unique in bad neighborhoods. Or is that racist? You know the best thing about working at night? I can't see who is driving the car when I'm behind them. Seriously, try it. You know how many times I am called racist? DAILY. I've only had one complaint. You know what it was for? A black couple pulled into a school at 2:30am. I stopped out with them. Apparently, that was racist. You know the worst kind of cop to be? A black cop because they are dumped on the hardest. Race traders yadda yadda. Obviously they're in collusion with the white man.

I don't need to google anecdotal stories. n=7 for your stories but it fits your biased beliefs that cops are out to get you.

Christ, during this entire arguement I forgot that you are essentially under the impression that I'm some white honky. Nope, I'm a minority as well. Should have mentioned that sooner... or am I still biased on the verge of being racist?

This is going to be my last post.
No I didn’t make an assumption that you are white. Trust me, I have these conversations with my friends who are of color as well. Like I just said in my last post I wish that medical professionals would have more education about bias, racism and disparities and how it affects health outcomes. Since we don’t get much of that education that is why I spoke up. I try to listen to others and not minimize their experiences so that’s why I shared some of mine. Never did I say that I think all police officers are racist, but there is clear data on disparities that certain groups face by virtue of their race and/or gender. Nothing that I’ve said did I pull out of my behind, so hopefully others who may be reading have used this as an opportunity to look in to the well documented research and education on this topic. I do hope that you will change your mind and do the same.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Just as there are bad physicians, dentists, pilots, etc. The difference is that when a dr does something bad, no one applies that to all drs... because that would be idiotic.

I totally agree with pretty much everything you said, but this is absolutely not true. I have heard so many people say that all doctors are money grubbing dinguses who don't care about them because of one bad experience with a doctor. I've heard people say they don't trust doctors because one misdiagnosed this or that. The public generalizes doctors all the time.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Yea your right about that. Guess it happens to everyone. Still, I feel that it is more of an accepted notion when referring to police. I see it on the news, social media, now on the EM subforum of SDN lol.

The media is extremely liberal. Of course they will mostly be negative toward police. I've found a lot of the more local stations tend to be more pro-police, since they are always around them, whereas the national networks just want ratings.

 

[enalli]

The media is extremely liberal. Of course they will mostly be negative toward police. I've found a lot of the more local stations tend to be more pro-police, since they are always around them, whereas the national networks just want ratings.

The media isn't negative to the police--they just aren't above reproach as they were before. Thirty years ago if a cop killed someone no one ever doubted the cop's story. Thanks to the ubiquity of cameras, smartphones, and recording devices, we have learned in the lat 5-10 that not 100% of cops are saints and maybe minorities do have a reason to be mistrustful of the police after all.

 

[Angry Birds]

The media isn't negative to the police--they just aren't above reproach as they were before. Thirty years ago if a cop killed someone no one ever doubted the cop's story. Thanks to the ubiquity of cameras, smartphones, and recording devices, we have learned in the lat 5-10 that not 100% of cops are saints and maybe minorities do have a reason to be mistrustful of the police after all.

It's part of the militarization of American police.

 

[Brigade4Radiant]

Have you ever placed your life on the line? Sacrificed for someone else? Maybe you have, I’m just asking. I’ve been shot at, shot in the chest, nearly run over and killed several times in service to others. So please, if it’s ok with you I’ll keep my ar-15. Or am I too militarized for your sensibilities? Because maybe I’m wrong but it’s the people who have done the least who cry the most.



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Done the least what? Saving lives in the ER?

Military has less protections than the police. If you kill a civilian you are doing time. Militarization of the police would actually be a good thing. Also being shot at is something thatregularly occurs in America we work in Emergency departments and we put ourselves at risk.

 

[Brigade4Radiant]

Please see my first and second sentences.

I don’t think that working in the er is synonymous with risking your life. Shooting victims being dumped off in the ed doesn’t qualify as being in harms way. Or maybe you put on body armor when you clock in every shift.

I’m not dumping of em docs. It’s a path that I may take. But it isn’t knowingly risking your life. I hope you don’t respond with the crazies that might come in armed. Because you call the police for that.


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Hospital shootings are a thing. Also gun violence is common in America. Military puts itself at harms way and doesn't enjoy half the protections that the police have. Firefighters also put themselves in harms way.

 

[Brigade4Radiant]

7/11 shootings are also a thing. I’ll put you up there with convenience store worker in terms of risk. Actually I’d put you just under them as they are robbed more often. Disagree? You’re right about one thing, violence in America.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN

Policing doesn't have a high death rate. The death rate for police is 5.55 per 100,000, comparable to the average murder rate for the US cites : 5.6 per 100,000.

Officer Deaths by Year

 

[Birdstrike]

I hate these people. I get them so often. Skunk drunk, car crash, no seat belt. Police don't care since they dump them on us. No charges filed against them. WTF.

Nothing we can do right?

It sounds like you're able to report them, but your PD is lackadaisical on enforcement. Not good. I guess your only recourse would be to file a complaint with PD or whoever supervises them in your town. I share your frustration. There's no point in having laws you're not going to enforce.

 

[deleted480308]

"The rate of fatal work injuries for police officers in 2014 was 13.5 per 100,000 full-time equivalent workers, compared to 3.4 for all occupations. Similarly, the rate of nonfatal occupational injuries and illnesses involving days away from work among police officers was 485.8 cases per 10,000 full-time workers in 2014; the rate was 107.1 cases for all occupations."

Police Officers Factsheet

The difference that you are failing to see is that police knowingly place themselves in danger. You, as an EM physician, do not. Though you have implied that you do. I guess you moved on from that argument?

Edit: Added quotations and wanted to suggest that you don't quote national stats relative to police deaths and then make the comparison to big city, urban murder rates. Apples and oranges, friend. Or was that intentional?

Policing is more dangerous than the average job but it’s not even close to the most dangerous jobs in America. It’s an honorable career when performed honorably but there is no need to make false implications

 

[RustedFox]

Have you ever placed your life on the line? Sacrificed for someone else? Maybe you have, I’m just asking. I’ve been shot at, shot in the chest, nearly run over and killed several times in service to others. So please, if it’s ok with you I’ll keep my ar-15. Or am I too militarized for your sensibilities? Because maybe I’m wrong but it’s the people who have done the least who cry the most.

Don't get too bent out of shape. AB says stupid $hit all the time on here. He or she hasn't figured out yet that he/she likes to be an expert on everything, yet... doesn't have it when the rubber meets the road.

 

[deleted480308]

Certainly didn’t mean to imply that it was the most [insert adjective]. I’m rebuking the em dr that began down that road and believes he is putting his life on the line in the ed.

Specifically what false implication did I make? Specifically if you don’t mind. Because I quoted a gov stat.

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I've already said you were implying that being a LEO was exceptionally dangerous when it's above avg but by now means the upper tier outlier. You have now clarified you don't want to imply that, I'm willing to believe you

 

[Birdstrike]

Certainly didn’t mean to imply that it was the most [insert adjective]. I’m rebuking the em dr that began down that road and believes he is putting his life on the line in the ed.

Specifically what false implication did I make? Specifically if you don’t mind. Because I quoted a gov stat.

Sent from my iPhone using SDN

In the ED one does routinely treat violent, psychotic, unstable, threatening and intoxicated patients. Many in the military never are killed, injured or even see combat. Many police officers are never shot or stabbed. Most fire fighters are not burned to death on the job. The fact that a system has been developed to reduce the risks associated with such activities to an acceptable level, doesn't erase the fact that there is risk there. The "statistical risk" of being in these professions may not be as high as it could be. compared to the perceived risk. Yet somehow, living, thinking, feeling, people seem to still find a way to respect what they do. Imagine that.

 

[Brigade4Radiant]

"The rate of fatal work injuries for police officers in 2014 was 13.5 per 100,000 full-time equivalent workers, compared to 3.4 for all occupations. Similarly, the rate of nonfatal occupational injuries and illnesses involving days away from work among police officers was 485.8 cases per 10,000 full-time workers in 2014; the rate was 107.1 cases for all occupations."

Police Officers Factsheet

The difference that you are failing to see is that police knowingly place themselves in danger. You, as an EM physician, do not. Though you have implied that you do. I guess you moved on from that argument?

Edit: Added quotations and wanted to suggest that you don't quote national stats relative to police deaths and then make the comparison to big city, urban murder rates. Apples and oranges, friend. Or was that intentional?

It was intentional. Death rates for police have been going down year by year. They are comparable in that putting your life on the line means more danger. So data would actually reflect that danger. Your job is policing not being sacrificed or a Marytr. The nature of policing allows you to have powers that other professions don’t have. also the data in your link also includes non felon related death and accidental death that applies to all professions.

Even then being a police officer is far safer than being an aircraft pilot.

 

[deleted480308]

Please quote me. But when you can’t a, “sorry I was wrong” will suffice.


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I said it was implied in the statement and still believe that was a reasonable impression to draw. You said you didn't mean to imply that. I said I was willing to believe you and take you at your word.

I'm not apologizing.

 

[deleted480308]

Genuinely curious on the pilot stats. Can you link? I’m not setup to do google at the moment.


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The 10 most dangerous jobs for men

 

[deleted480308]

Apology accepted.


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no need to be openly dishonest. We can disagree on a topic without that

 

[deleted109597]

Let's keep it professional in here team. I've already had to give out two warnings, I'd like to stop there. If the argument over this keeps on I'll have to lock the thread.

 

[deleted109597]

It was a combination of the increasing level of conflict and the off topic nature.
The discussion is worth having, but it needs to be on an even keel and not the way it's been going.