235750

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Hello everyone,

I have some questions about dual accredited AOA/ACGME programs.

Before I ask questions, let me explain why the normal AOA residencies are not attractive for me. There are three reasons. (1) I've read that the 'traditional' osteopathic first year is just like 3rd or 4th year of med school where you repeat all your general rotations (OB/Gyn, peds, FM, surg, etc). This sounds like a waste of time. (2) I am interested in psych and there are only 9 AOA programs in the entire country. I feel like to be the only AOA trained shrink would be a bad thing, perhaps leading to some difficulties when applying to fellowships (I'm just trying to keep options open here, I don't care about them now). Also that means that the other psych residencies are on the other side of the country and I don't want to move (3) I dislike the AOA and would like to be rid of them

Now, my thinking is that by doing UMDNJ's AOA/ACGME program via the AOA route would be good in that it would address #2 and #3. If it really does count for ACGME then I could just go ABMS and forget the AOA right? And in regards to #1, well, I'd just have to bite the bullet which isn't the end of the world I guess.

Is my assessment correct?

Plus, would the AOA residency be easier to apply to and match to?

I'd also like to add that I searched the forums pretty rigorously and didn't find an answer. Thanks.
 

DrWBD

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ACGME Psych residencies are wide open for DOs at present. Unless you want to practice in a state that doesn't easily accept the Resolution 42 hardship exemption, I see no reason to pursue AOA training in this field.

As far as I'm concerned, dual-accredited programs are a huge scam foisted onto osteopathic students. These programs are invariably of spotty quality and would likely only fill with FMGs if exclusively ACGME accredited. The dual accreditation benefits the hospital in that they get American-trained physicians in their marginal residency programs. The AOA benefits by expanding their sphere of influence in GME. How the resident benefits, though, I'm not sure. :laugh:
 

tkim

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ACGME Psych residencies are wide open for DOs at present. Unless you want to practice in a state that doesn't easily accept the Resolution 42 hardship exemption, I see no reason to pursue AOA training in this field.

As far as I'm concerned, dual-accredited programs are a huge scam foisted onto osteopathic students. These programs are invariably of spotty quality and would likely only fill with FMGs if exclusively ACGME accredited. The dual accreditation benefits the hospital in that they get American-trained physicians in their marginal residency programs. The AOA benefits by expanding their sphere of influence in GME. How the resident benefits, though, I'm not sure. :laugh:
I think it depends on the specialty. For example, Einstein in Philly for EM is dually-accredited and a quality program. Lehigh Valley, was an osteopathic-only program that went dual, and it's arguably one of the better EM programs, osteopathic or not.
 
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235750

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ACGME Psych residencies are wide open for DOs at present. Unless you want to practice in a state that doesn't easily accept the Resolution 42 hardship exemption, I see no reason to pursue AOA training in this field.
I guess my point is, if it's dually accredited then it wouldn't matter that it's an AOA program right? What about my question about the ABMS? You can skip the AOA afterwards, right?

Also, I am worried about competition. You see, in four years I think the match is going to be crazy, plus the fact that I'm looking for somewhere near Philly. So, if this UMDNJ program is awesome, and counts for ACGME credit so you can kiss the AOA goodbye, then why not consider it?

Wanna_be_do, what do you think?
 
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235750

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I think it depends on the specialty. For example, Einstein in Philly for EM is dually-accredited and a quality program. Lehigh Valley, was an osteopathic-only program that went dual, and it's arguably one of the better EM programs, osteopathic or not.
This is true, but I am looking specifically at psych. There are only a few AOA residencies for psych
 

JaggerPlate

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Hello everyone,

I have some questions about dual accredited AOA/ACGME programs.

Before I ask questions, let me explain why the normal AOA residencies are not attractive for me. There are three reasons. (1) I've read that the 'traditional' osteopathic first year is just like 3rd or 4th year of med school where you repeat all your general rotations (OB/Gyn, peds, FM, surg, etc). This sounds like a waste of time. (2) I am interested in psych and there are only 9 AOA programs in the entire country. I feel like to be the only AOA trained shrink would be a bad thing, perhaps leading to some difficulties when applying to fellowships (I'm just trying to keep options open here, I don't care about them now). Also that means that the other psych residencies are on the other side of the country and I don't want to move (3) I dislike the AOA and would like to be rid of them

Now, my thinking is that by doing UMDNJ's AOA/ACGME program via the AOA route would be good in that it would address #2 and #3. If it really does count for ACGME then I could just go ABMS and forget the AOA right? And in regards to #1, well, I'd just have to bite the bullet which isn't the end of the world I guess.

Is my assessment correct?

Plus, would the AOA residency be easier to apply to and match to?

I'd also like to add that I searched the forums pretty rigorously and didn't find an answer. Thanks.
Just go ACGME ... they are about as uncompetitive as they come (from my understanding) right now.
 

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I think it depends on the specialty. For example, Einstein in Philly for EM is dually-accredited and a quality program. Lehigh Valley, was an osteopathic-only program that went dual, and it's arguably one of the better EM programs, osteopathic or not.
Aye, if I go into to EM I will fight tooth and nail for LVH. The program is well respected, in a great area compared to others, tons of exposure, and arguably one of the best hospitals in the state when you don't look at academia/attached hospitals. The competition is fierce :(.
 

tkim

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Aye, if I go into to EM I will fight tooth and nail for LVH. The program is well respected, in a great area compared to others, tons of exposure, and arguably one of the best hospitals in the state when you don't look at academia/attached hospitals. The competition is fierce :(.
Tell me about it. I got the email that I was 'ranked to match' and I agonized over that for a good long time before withdrawing for the allo match. Easily would have been my #3 in a combined match scenario, but the 4th year made it less attractive. If it were 3 years, it would have been my #1. It was such a nice fricken program.
 

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tkim, any idea how I can find a list of dually accredited AOA-ACGME internships? The aoa opportunities website gives me zero results when I go under "advanced search" and check the dually-accredited box. I know for a fact that there are a handful of dually-accredited internships, but after the AOA restructuring of internships last year, I now can't find them on the website.
 

scpod

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tkim, any idea how I can find a list of dually accredited AOA-ACGME internships? The aoa opportunities website gives me zero results when I go under "advanced search" and check the dually-accredited box. I know for a fact that there are a handful of dually-accredited internships, but after the AOA restructuring of internships last year, I now can't find them on the website.
You also have to pick a specialty.... or you can just highlight them all. When I pick them all I get a list of 161 programs. Note, you have to pick "residency" and not "internship."
 

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But that just gives me a boatload for dually-accredited FM/IM residency programs. I'm interested in a dually-accreidted transitional year. I feel like I'm missing something here?
 

JaggerPlate

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I think that changed this year. I recall psych being hot(ter) than usual.
Huh, that's interesting. It makes sense to me personally though, I always thought psyche would be interesting.
 

Bacchus

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Tell me about it. I got the email that I was 'ranked to match' and I agonized over that for a good long time before withdrawing for the allo match. Easily would have been my #3 in a combined match scenario, but the 4th year made it less attractive. If it were 3 years, it would have been my #1. It was such a nice fricken program.
I think I could handle the fourth year. I'm from the area and want to get back to my "roots" after all said and done so it'd be nice to get job offers in the area through networking and then being able to commute from the north to work. Of course, this is if I go into EM, get the board scores necessary, and pass anatomy, haha.
 

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I guess my point is, if it's dually accredited then it wouldn't matter that it's an AOA program right? What about my question about the ABMS? You can skip the AOA afterwards, right?

Also, I am worried about competition. You see, in four years I think the match is going to be crazy, plus the fact that I'm looking for somewhere near Philly. So, if this UMDNJ program is awesome, and counts for ACGME credit so you can kiss the AOA goodbye, then why not consider it?

Wanna_be_do, what do you think?
You are correct. If you complete an ACGME-accredited residency and pass the American Board of Psychiatry and Neurology exam, you can practice independently of the AOA.

If you want to practice in Philadelphia, though, you may actually be part of the minority that benefit from a dual-accredited program. Having an AOA-approved internship year will likely eliminate a lot of headaches when you're applying for your state license there.

Regarding the competitiveness of Psychiatry in the future - who knows? With the anticipated increase in the number of American MDs and DOs, Psychiatry may become more competitive. The only time you will know for sure is the year you apply. According to the latest NRMP Match Data, though, of the 1,063 available categorical Psychiatry positions, 656 were filled by US MD applicants. That leaves a lot of spots for DOs and FMGs.
NRMP Match Data 2009 - refer to Table 5.
 

DrWBD

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I think it depends on the specialty. For example, Einstein in Philly for EM is dually-accredited and a quality program. Lehigh Valley, was an osteopathic-only program that went dual, and it's arguably one of the better EM programs, osteopathic or not.
I agree.
 
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235750

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You are correct. If you complete an ACGME-accredited residency and pass the American Board of Psychiatry and Neurology exam, you can practice independently of the AOA.

If you want to practice in Philadelphia, though, you may actually be part of the minority that benefit from a dual-accredited program. Having an AOA-approved internship year will likely eliminate a lot of headaches when you're applying for your state license there.

Regarding the competitiveness of Psychiatry in the future - who knows? With the anticipated increase in the number of American MDs and DOs, Psychiatry may become more competitive. The only time you will know for sure is the year you apply. According to the latest NRMP Match Data, though, of the 1,063 available categorical Psychiatry positions, 656 were filled by US MD applicants. That leaves a lot of spots for DOs and FMGs.
NRMP Match Data 2009 - refer to Table 5.
Thank you very much wanna, that was really helpful! Exactly what I was looking for

Also, FYI only 8 spots were filled initially at UMDJMDJM (whatever that silly abbreviation is) via the AOA match out of 12, so that's good odds! Eventually people scrambled there

I have been stressing out about taking the USMLE in addition to the COMLEX, but it looks like for now anyway that may not be necessary...

Thanks again!
 

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I'm also going to start applying to Psych. But I'm very confused. For the 2009-2010 year the AOA is changing Psych to track 1. Now....If I apply to an AOA residency I would go straight into the residency program right? Well what about ACGME programs? For those, would I have to do an AOA internship year?

Please help...totally confused!!! :confused:
 

group_theory

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For Psychiatry, you have the option of doing an ACGME residency, a dual AOA/ACGME residency, or AOA residency.

For AOA and dual AOA/ACGME, your first year in residency will count as the AOA approved intern year. Option 1 Intern Year basically means you matched directly into the residency program and your intern year will automatically fulfill requirements for the AOA internship.

For ACGME residency, you will need to get your ACGME PGY1 year approved by the AOA via Resolution 42. For psychiatry residents, Resolution 42 requires that you complete 4 months of General Internal Medicine, 2 months of Neurology, and 6 months of Psychiatry in order to fulfill requirements. The reason why this isn't an issue is because you will need to do at least 4 months of primary care (internal medicine, pediatrics, family practice) during your intern year since it is part of the requirement as set by the American Board of Psychiatry and Neurology.

Once Resolution 42 is approved, you are eligible for licensure in the 5 states that require an AOA approved intern year. You are also eligible, should you desire, to get your ACGME residency AOA approved so that you can also be board eligible for the AOA Board.




http://www.do-online.org/index.cfm?PageID=sir_postdocabtres42
http://www.abpn.com/downloads/ifas/IFA_Cert_Psych_2010.pdf
http://www.do-online.org/pdf/acc_postdocogmefirstyearoptions.pdf
 
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DrWBD

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I'm also going to start applying to Psych. But I'm very confused. For the 2009-2010 year the AOA is changing Psych to track 1. Now....If I apply to an AOA residency I would go straight into the residency program right? Well what about ACGME programs? For those, would I have to do an AOA internship year?

Please help...totally confused!!! :confused:
If you do an ACGME residency you do not need a rotating internship or Resolution 42 exemption unless you are in a state that absolutely requires an AOA-approved internship to obtain licensure. This is the way it has always been.
 

group_theory

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If you do an ACGME residency you do not need a rotating internship or Resolution 42 exemption unless you are in a state that absolutely requires an AOA-approved internship to obtain licensure. This is the way it has always been.

True. But for psychiatry residents, all they have to do is fill out a form, have their program director sign off on their PGY1 rotation, and voila, approval of Resolution 42. As mentioned before, there's no additional rotational requirement since the ABPN requires a minimum of 4 months of either Internal Med, Peds, or Fam Med anyway in order to be board eligible.

And by simply filling out the form and getting Resolution 42 approved, the 5 states that requires an AOA approved intern year are open to you. Otherwise, they remain forbidden.
 
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Can you expand more on this Resolution 42 please... I have heard about it but still not completely clear. I heard it is what you must complete if a D.O. does an ACGME residency which i am most likely looking to do...