due process and termination

[Phd2016]

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During my graduate studies, I was terminated from part-time psychometrist positions. These were not practicum placements. It was a combination of lack of training at the sites, personal issues, poor decision making on my part, and bad timing. Either way it happened.

Since, I've gotten more training, direct supervision, help for my own mental health, and maturity. I have strong referees, and feel more confident in my skills. I have held other clinical jobs for years!! I have really pulled it together and am ready to apply to internship.

Unfortunately the internship application asks about termination. I worry about how to approach this, now and in the future (registration and jobs..). Does anyone have advice? How much and what exactly do I say?

 

[PsychBiker]

Either note the background of the situation and admit your faults or don't mention the whole thing at all - however the latter is probably unethical.

How long were you employed there for and how long ago was this?

 

[Phd2016]

Thanks for your response. It was after about a month, and it was nearly 4 years and one year ago.

 

[MCParent]

Thanks for your response. It was after about a month, and it was nearly 4 years and one year ago.

What's the exact wording of the appi question that asks about this?

 

[Phd2016]

Its in the "professional conduct" section, where it states: "Have you ever been put on probation, suspended, terminated, or asked to resign by a graduate or internship training program, practicum site, or employer? If yes, explain."

The terminations were not about my professional demeanor or conduct, they were about employee fit and qualifications. I just don't know what to do - it seems unfair that these things would follow me my whole professional life when I've take important steps to re-mediate it. I also understand why a site would want to know.

In addition to what "should do" what would you do? realistically.....

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Its in the "professional conduct" section, where it states: "Have you ever been put on probation, suspended, terminated, or asked to resign by a graduate or internship training program, practicum site, or employer? If yes, explain."

The terminations were not about my professional demeanor or conduct, they were about employee fit and qualifications. I just don't know what to do - it seems unfair that these things would follow me my whole professional life when I've take important steps to re-mediate it. I also understand why a site would want to know.

In addition to what "should do" what would you do? realistically.....

Based on the bolded portion, I'd say it's something you need to disclose. They provide you with space to "explain," though, so that's where you can take the opportunity to present the facts about the situation and then concisely describe all the things you've done to remediate anything on your end.

As for what I personally would do, yes, I would disclose it.

 

[OneNeuroDoctor]

I think you need to ask the Director of Clinical Training the status of your practicum placements that they are going to report. It seems that this was a poor match for you and you were reassigned to a different placement rather than terminated and required to do a remediation plan.

If the DCT is not reporting this then you do not need to report it. You need to be consistent with what their report indicates.

Does it reflect on your course credits that you repeated the practicum? If this was a job outside of your practicum placements it would not be required to be reported nor would it count towards practicum hours.

When I applied through APPIC several years back, my application had to be cleared by our DCT before being allowed to apply so probably they will let you know if you need this in your application before they approve your application.

 

[MCParent]

It seems that this was a poor match for you and you were reassigned to a different placement rather than terminated and required to do a remediation plan.

That's not what OP said by my read. OP said it was "a combination of lack of training at the sites, personal issues, poor decision making on my part, and bad timing" and called it "terminated." I think the suggestion to not disclose is patently unethical.

 

[Phd2016]

I think you need to ask the Director of clinical training the status of your practicum placements that they are going to report. It seems that this was a poor match for you and you were reassigned to a different placement rather than terminated and required to do a remediation plan.

If the DCT is not reporting this then you do not need to report it. You need to be consistent with what their report indicates.

Does it reflect on your course credits that you repeated the practicum? If this was a job outside of your practicum placements it would not be required to be reported nor would it count towards practicum hours.

When I applied through APPIC several years back, my application had to be cleared by your DCT before being allowed to apply so probably they will let you know if you need this in your application before they approve your application.

OND - these were completely outside of my practicum placements, and my DCT and supervisor don't know anything about it. As such, there isn't anything on record. I will be meeting with my DCT to review/approve my application, so I can verify that things are consistent. Thank you.

MCparent - I know what you mean re: unethical. That's a piece I am conflicted about. These are no longer a representation of my skills, and were outside the program (not even program accredited sites). So I am conflicted.

Thank you everyone for your nonjudgmental advice.

 

[MCParent]

MCparent - I know what you mean re: unethical. That's a piece I am conflicted about. These are no longer a representation of my skills, and were outside the program (not even program accredited sites). So I am conflicted.

Is there much more to say than, "I took a position as a psychometrist that it turns out I was not prepared for in terms of skill set and preparation. This position was terminated, an action that in retrospect I agree with as I do not believe my abilities at that time early in my training were commensurate with the requirements and duties of the position. Since then I have blah blah blah."

 

[OneNeuroDoctor]

If this was outside of the program practicum requirements my guess is to not report it. You were still in training for the job or on probationary status and it was only part-time. You were not let go due to ethical reasons and most internship, employment, and licensing boards are concerned if you were let go due to ethical reasons.

Since you were at that job only briefly, are you putting it on your CV?

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Given that the APPIC item specifically states "employment," and does not imply that this must be degree-centric employment, I'd say it needs to be disclosed. That's just my read, though. The way I see it written, it could apply to being fired from a part-time job someone had when they were 16 and still in high school.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

If this was outside of the program practicum requirements my guess is to not report it. You were still in training for the job or on probationary status and it was only part-time, as you were only there for a month or less. It would be different had you worked there for a year or more and were terminated for conduct or skills deficiencies. You were not let go due to ethical reasons and most internship, employment, and licensing boards are concerned if you were let go due to ethical reasons.

Since you were at that job only briefly, are you putting it on your CV?

I don't think it's our place to try and guess at what internship sites, employers, and licensing boards are concerned with. Rather, it's our job to completely answer the question. Ironically, not doing so could indeed be seen as an ethical violation.

 

[erg923]

From an ethical and moral perspective, obviously you should tell the truth, right? The question clearly says "employer" so I'm not sure why neurodoc advised what he did.

That said, I agree the question should be worded better so that's it's clear how far back they want one to go with this question. I mean, I didn't disclose being fired from a Dairy Queen when I was 16 for giving my girlfriend free blizzards.

 

[MCParent]

I would think OP, by the description of the events provided, could just describe it as a case of getting a position that OP was not prepared for at that time, training-wise and otherwise, as I said above. That's not really a red flag or a concern for an internship selection committee. Actually I think it's pretty responsible of the OP to not raise a fuss and try to hold onto a position OP recognizes that OP was not competent to carry out optimally at that time.

 

[deleted106747]

I think it would be hilarious if someone disclosed that they were fired from dairy queen for giving friends free blizzards when they were sixteen.
I don't know what the most ethical answer is here. The whole internship thing is profoundly unethical, the imbalance, the unfairness. If you do disclose it, I'd not say anything about mental health issues, etc. I'd make it sound as impersonal as possible - did not have the training the site desired, something like that.

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I think it would be hilarious if someone disclosed that they were fired from dairy queen for giving friends free blizzards when they were sixteen.
I don't know what the most ethical answer is here. The whole internship thing is profoundly unethical, the imbalance, the unfairness. If you do disclose it, I'd not say anything about mental health issues, etc. I'd make it sound as impersonal as possible - did not have the training the site desired, something like that.

I don't know that I'd say it's unethical. Certainly a profound potential to be unfair, though. I guess it depends on what perspective you're taking and how you're defining unethical.

But my take is still that if the employment happened when the person was in grad school, and particularly if the employment was psychology-related, the termination should be reported.

 

[oathkeeper]

I'd check with my DCT; also I believe APPIC has a problem consultation option, they might be able to help you.

 

[deleted106747]

I don't know that I'd say it's unethical. Certainly a profound potential to be unfair, though. I guess it depends on what perspective you're taking and how you're defining unethical.

But my take is still that if the employment happened when the person was in grad school, and particularly if the employment was psychology-related, the termination should be reported.

I think unethical for reasons that would start a debate that wouldn't benefit this thread and has been hashed to death.... It's a tough question. I think the OP should consult with people more informed that I am.

 

[OneNeuroDoctor]

Whoops wrong thread!

 

[psyman]

Given that the APPIC item specifically states "employment," and does not imply that this must be degree-centric employment, I'd say it needs to be disclosed. That's just my read, though. The way I see it written, it could apply to being fired from a part-time job someone had when they were 16 and still in high school.

OP, were you truly terminated from the position? I mean, they said, "You're fired because X, Y and Z." If so, then you should disclose it.

The position was recent enough (in my opinion) and was in the field. If it were your teenage Dairy Queen job, then I would say don't disclose it. Though it does bring up the questionable scope of what is reportable in response to that question.

Could you get away with not reporting it? Likely, but it's not worth it. Be honest about what happened. The truth is it will be a bad mark on your application, but it's not a death sentence. Remember, the person reading the application has made mistakes, too.

 

[erg923]

I also flipped a golf cart when I was a caddy (long story). I didn't report that either...

 

[Sendtrees]

The question very clearly covers the situation you describe. There's a box somewhere you click saying that all of the information you submit is truthful, etc. It would be very dangerous (internally as well as externally) for you to begin this important phase of your career with a lie. Which is what it would be not to disclose and then to click that box. I hear you--it really sucks in this hypercompetitive market to have to admit to anything that isn't stellar, but the alternative is just too risky.

 

[erg923]

I think unethical for reasons that would start a debate that wouldn't benefit this thread and has been hashed to death.... It's a tough question. I think the OP should consult with people more informed that I am.

My guess would be something along the lines of restraint of trade (probably not proper terminology) because of the match systerm vs being able recieve mutliple offers. Instead its one match (offer) or nothing at all.