DVM's Who WON'T Euthanize?

[SeaWorldVet]

---

Members do not see this ad.

Hi! I'm new to the forum and I was wondering if a DVM can refuse to Euthanize. I guess you can do whatever you want to do but is this common? I'm searching the forum for Euthanasia but I've yet to come across this particular topic. It might be on here so sorry if this is a repeat question.

 

[sofficat]

Many vets I've worked for have refused to euthanize certain patients/cases. I will certainly refuse if it is not necessary. In these cases the vets usually convenience the owner to treat or they end up adopting the dog (to keep or to adopt to others). The only concern is that some clients might take home and 'euthanize' the pet themselves... we try to avoid that.

 

[Angelo84]

It is usually a personal decision on the part of the vet and is very situational. If you mean is it common for veterinarians to refuse to euthanize a pet that is ill or dying I do not believe it is. For vets to refuse to euthanize a healthy animal because the owners are moving to an apartment that doesn's allow pets--this is common. Personally I would refuse to euthanize a pet for "convience" but would be willing to euthanze a ill pet that will not recover or an ill pet whoses owners can not afford treatment to cure the pet. Also on a legal matter if a pet has bitten in the last ten days it must be quarantined for two weeks to ensure that it does not have rabies or the animal is euthanized and the head sent for rabies testing. I think it would be very unusual to find a vet that would not euthanize regardless of the situation.

 

[KittyRex]

I have never heard of a veterinarian who refuses to euthanize under any and all circumstances. Unfortunately, it is a part of the job and there are many situations in which euthanasia is the most humane option.

However, once you are a practicing veterinarian, you do have the option to make choices about which circumstances warrant euthanasia. For example, many veterinarians choose not to do convenience euthanasias and only agree to euthanize for medical reasons. But, more often than not, you'll find that there is a lot of grey area.

I hope this helps to answer your question!

 

[pressmom]

Unfortunately, it is a part of the job and there are many situations in which euthanasia is the most humane option.

I disagree with "unfortunately." I think the ability to euthanize is one of the greatest gift we have as veterinarians. The ability to have our patients die with dignity and not suffer long illnesses or difficult deaths. It is a chance for owners who have exhausted all possibilities of treatment, can no longer afford treatment, or just know their beloved companion is failing in health have a last peaceful moment with them that honors their life and position in the family.

While there are people out there who wish to take advantage of veterinarians and convince them to euthanize in convenience circumstances, I have been pleased to find these are far between in practices I have been a part of. And when they do come in to euthanize, we try to place the animal in foster care or rescue, and many of the people, once they know these options exist, choose to take advantage of them. There will always be people who look at animals as disposable, but as veterinarians, it is our supreme responsibility to use our gifts wisely.

 

[lailanni]

I disagree with "unfortunately." I think the ability to euthanize is one of the greatest gift we have as veterinarians. The ability to have our patients die with dignity and not suffer long illnesses or difficult deaths. It is a chance for owners who have exhausted all possibilities of treatment, can no longer afford treatment, or just know their beloved companion is failing in health have a last peaceful moment with them that honors their life and position in the family.

While there are people out there who wish to take advantage of veterinarians and convince them to euthanize in convenience circumstances, I have been pleased to find these are far between in practices I have been a part of. And when they do come in to euthanize, we try to place the animal in foster care or rescue, and many of the people, once they know these options exist, choose to take advantage of them. There will always be people who look at animals as disposable, but as veterinarians, it is our supreme responsibility to use our gifts wisely.

Well said, well said. 👍

I think that a painless, dignified, and quick death is one of the best final gifts we can give. One of the things that troubles me about human medicine is how hard they fight to extend a miserable life, disregarding quality of years for quantity of years.

 

[starlene45]

Well said, well said. 👍

One of the things that troubles me about human medicine is how hard they fight to extend a miserable life, disregarding quality of years for quantity of years.

This can happen in veterinary medicine too... I have done "hospice care" on a Sheltie whose owners did not believe in euthanasia. "We will not kill our animal" were the words they used. The animal had had several "brain stem events" (aka major strokes) and was recumbant, non-responsive, and incontinent on admit. Amazingly, after 48 hours in the hospital with extreme supportive care, including IVF and constant nursing support, she actually started eating on her own again and we discharged her back to her owners, essentially to go home and die at home. It was a strange and unsettling event.... While in some ways it was upsetting to witness, I tried really hard to focus on respecting the client's belief system: for them, it was very important that they allow the dog to pass on her own time, and at least they gave her absolutely the best care they could in the time they had.

And, more on topic, I have more than once seen the vets at my hospital refuse to euthanize an animal. It is never a pleasant scene, but their reasons for refusal are always valid: as I work emergency shifts at my clinic we sometimes have people come in with pets that we have never seen or treated, and if the pet is vitally stable and apparently healthy there is usually a very long discussion between client and doctor before a decision is reached. Often that decision is no.

 

[SeaWorldVet]

Thanks for the responses! 👍

"...euthanasia is the most humane option."

I don't agree with the above statement. Yes, you are putting them out of their misery buuuutttt...we don't so called "euthanize" humans who have diseases or are in pain/sick. 😕 Am I missing something? Why do most veterinarians think this is the most humane option? I'm not too knowledgeable about euthanasia so I'm not judging; I'm just curious b/c I'm really interested in being a veterinarian. Thanks. 😀

 

[david594]

Thanks for the responses! 👍

"...euthanasia is the most humane option."

I don't agree with the above statement. Yes, you are putting them out of their misery buuuutttt...we don't so called "euthanize" humans who have diseases or are in pain/sick. 😕 Am I missing something? Why do most veterinarians think this is the most humane option? I'm not too knowledgeable about euthanasia so I'm not judging; I'm just curious b/c I'm really interested in being a veterinarian. Thanks. 😀

Your are missing something. Go get more(any?) experience in the veterinary field and you will see the importance of euthanasia.

You don't seem to have a knowledgable understanding of the veterinary field yet.

An example of the need for euthanasia.

Dog was dragged 1 mile behind a pickup truck.

 

[tealamutt]

and in fact we do 'euthanize' humans, in oregon and now washington.

 

[InfiniVet]

Thanks for the responses! 👍

"...euthanasia is the most humane option."

I don't agree with the above statement. Yes, you are putting them out of their misery buuuutttt...we don't so called "euthanize" humans who have diseases or are in pain/sick.

Why we don't euthanize humans:
In an extremely oversimplified, easy answer: Value.
Animals do not & should never have the same value as a human.
The premise is easy to see in the example of say, grandpa that is suffering from terminal lung cancer, who has been circling the drain and is dying in agony...or a trauma patient, bleeding to certain death in fear gripped hell - neither cannot be viewed as having a lower value than a domesticated or wild animal. Now, this is a double edged sword - if Grandpa begs (in between sips of painful breaths) for euthanasia we can't do it. The only recourse is suicide.
There's too much of a grey area when you allow human euthanasia, that's why its ethically dubious - it becomes a slippery slope much faster due to sentience & consciousness.

As opposed to animals, which aren't thought to possess self awareness/consciousness.

Situations where we consider euthanizing animals humane: When it would be inhumane, as a veterinarian acting as the guardian and protector of animal welfare, to let them live.
Animals can't beg for euthanasia, so out of compassion, we allow them to pass through the phases of irreparable pain and suffering, to hasten the inevitable, skip the pain and pass on to death.
Thats also why convenience euthanasia is frowned upon.

Shed any light? 🙂

 

[SeaWorldVet]

Why we don't euthanize humans:
In an extremely oversimplified, easy answer: Value.
Animals do not & should never have the same value as a human.
The premise is easy to see in the example of say, grandpa that is suffering from terminal lung cancer, who has been circling the drain and is dying in agony...or a trauma patient, bleeding to certain death in fear gripped hell - neither cannot be viewed as having a lower value than a domesticated or wild animal. Now, this is a double edged sword - if Grandpa begs (in between sips of painful breaths) for euthanasia we can't do it. The only recourse is suicide.
There's too much of a grey area when you allow human euthanasia, that's why its ethically dubious - it becomes a slippery slope much faster due to sentience & consciousness.

As opposed to animals, which aren't thought to possess self awareness/consciousness.

Situations where we consider euthanizing animals humane: When it would be inhumane, as a veterinarian acting as the guardian and protector of animal welfare, to let them live.
Animals can't beg for euthanasia, so out of compassion, we allow them to pass through the phases of irreparable pain and suffering, to hasten the inevitable, skip the pain and pass on to death.
Thats also why convenience euthanasia is frowned upon.

Shed any light? 🙂

Oh ok...I have seeeeeeeen the light! 😉 That makes sense now. It still seems like it would be a hard thing to do; do you guys get used to it? I guess you are putting them out of their misery so it's for the better. Hhhmm.

Your are missing something. Go get more (any?) experience in the veterinary field and you will see the importance of euthanasia.

You don't seem to have a knowledgable understanding of the veterinary field yet.

An example of the need for euthanasia.

Dog was dragged 1 mile behind a pickup truck.

Yeah, I really don't have a lot of veterinary experience. I've volunteered in a shelter for a couple of months, a while ago, but that's about it. I'm working on it...

 

[Electrophile]

Thanks for the responses! 👍

"...euthanasia is the most humane option."

I don't agree with the above statement. Yes, you are putting them out of their misery buuuutttt...we don't so called "euthanize" humans who have diseases or are in pain/sick. 😕 Am I missing something? Why do most veterinarians think this is the most humane option? I'm not too knowledgeable about euthanasia so I'm not judging; I'm just curious b/c I'm really interested in being a veterinarian. Thanks. 😀

Having my grandmother die of lymphoma, I wish we did have euthanasia. She was really bad off the last few days. At least she got home hospice care. There's also a video on YouTube (should be able to find it if you search for it) where a little boy is dying of rabies, which is not at all uncommon in other countries, especially Asia and Africa. I personally feel there's a place for it, though others are certainly welcome to disagree. What that place is, that's the tricky part.

 

[twelvetigers]

Yeah, humans are a slippery slope. Just look at all the insanity that happened with the Terry Schiavo case. It's part of a veterinarian's duty to evaluate situations and determine if it is more humane to euthanize or treat... which isn't always a black and white matter... and the owner ultimately has the last say, in all cases.

It gets easier with time, but there are always some cases that are harder with others. It is definitely something that you would need to experience yourself, and something you'll have to come to terms with before you apply to vet school. I think that's one of the reasons the admissions committees like to see some (or a lot) of vet experience - so that you know what will be expected of you in the future. Dealing with euthanasia under all sorts of circumstances will be one of those things you'll just have to get used to as a veterinarian.

 

[pupsforseeing]

Why we don't euthanize humans:
In an extremely oversimplified, easy answer: Value.
Animals do not & should never have the same value as a human.
The premise is easy to see in the example of say, grandpa that is suffering from terminal lung cancer, who has been circling the drain and is dying in agony...or a trauma patient, bleeding to certain death in fear gripped hell - neither cannot be viewed as having a lower value than a domesticated or wild animal. Now, this is a double edged sword - if Grandpa begs (in between sips of painful breaths) for euthanasia we can't do it. The only recourse is suicide.
There's too much of a grey area when you allow human euthanasia, that's why its ethically dubious - it becomes a slippery slope much faster due to sentience & consciousness.

Well said, InfiniVet. Also, a big difference between Grandpa and Fido is that Grandpa has the mental capacity to understand that all of these painful treatments are to prolong his life, not just solely to make him suffer. Fido doesn't know that. So, if you are causing Fido pain through extensive treatments, but it is so he can be healed, that pain is warranted (much as you would do for a small child who can't make decisions on their own/understand what's going on). But, if you are putting Fido through pain without hope of recovery, I think that is where you have to draw the line and euthanasia is the best alternative.

 

[sofficat]

Thanks for the responses! 👍

"...euthanasia is the most humane option."

I don't agree with the above statement. Yes, you are putting them out of their misery buuuutttt...we don't so called "euthanize" humans who have diseases or are in pain/sick. 😕 Am I missing something? Why do most veterinarians think this is the most humane option? I'm not too knowledgeable about euthanasia so I'm not judging; I'm just curious b/c I'm really interested in being a veterinarian. Thanks. 😀

I love how honest you are and how you came about asking your questions. Many times people will just say "i will NEVER KILL an animal as a vet- i don't see how any vets can do that.' eek!!
You definitely have to experience it. It is also very different at a shelter. Those animals are essentially euthanized for convenience and they don't have anyone to care for them (not saying it's wrong to euth shelter animals- it's unfortunately necessary). Being in a clinic is totally different. I had a vet tell me 'the minute a euthanization doesn't effect you- you need to change jobs.' however, that doesn't mean I can't feel good about my decision to end the suffering of a patient (not good as in warm gooey feeling but good as in medical decision/best for patient feeling).
We had a client who almost refused to euth her pet when it was seizuring for 30 minutes and it's temp was too high to measure (at least 106.1). The owner 'didn't believe' in euth and wanted to take her home, put her in the garden and let her die. The docs were busy and left this up to me to take care of (not the euth part, but the talking part). It was hard to talk to this lady and keep a level head while the dog was lying infront of us in her condition.

so- euthanasias can be a wonderful gift

however, when you have a happy pitbull puppy with two messed up hips because of a genetic defect and it will cost thousands with a specialist and years of recovery to fix... those are hard to put down... THAT wouldn't happen in human med...

 

[buckeye4runner]

I have heard from the vet I work for that some of his classmates are practicing and do not perform any euthanasias for personal/moral/ethical reasons. I'm not sure how their clients respond to this, or if they refer euthanasias elsewhere. I haven't met any vets that won't do one, myself. It comes down to personal choice. Within the boundaries of the law, you can make your practice anything you want. If you don't want to do euthanasias, then don't, but be prepared to (politely and intelligently) defend that position, as it is in the minority.

The most interesting way I've heard euthanasia described relates to the veterinary oath and animal welfare. We as veterinarians want to eliminate an animal's pain and suffering to the best of our abilities. Euthanasia is one way to eliminate their pain, and sometimes the only way. The unfortunate side effect is that the animal dies in the process. Just think about what the euthanasia solution does: it is an analgesic and anesthetic first, then it stops the heart.

Hope it helps! (Or at least gives you something to think about)

 

[Moonpaw]

I have heard from the vet I work for that some of his classmates are practicing and do not perform any euthanasias for personal/moral/ethical reasons. I'm not sure how their clients respond to this, or if they refer euthanasias elsewhere.

Is it ethical to never perform euthanasia ever? Euthanasia is most certainly a double-edged sword, but in many cases it can be a gift when a pet is in pain and dying. Would it really be okay to allow the pet to continue to be in pain while it is referred to another doctor, just so that other doctor can give it the shot?

 

[Catnapper]

Why we don't euthanize humans:
In an extremely oversimplified, easy answer: Value.
Animals do not & should never have the same value as a human.

Animals can't beg for euthanasia, so out of compassion, we allow them to pass through the phases of irreparable pain and suffering, to hasten the inevitable, skip the pain and pass on to death.
Thats also why convenience euthanasia is frowned upon.

Shed any light? 🙂

Absolutely! Humans could never occupy that higher plane of value held by other animals! Hence, it makes sense that humans be allowed to rot away in that purgatory, vegetative state imposed on them by medical progress. 😛

 

[LucyLoo]

Absolutely! Humans could never occupy that higher plane of value held by other animals! Hence, it makes sense that humans be allowed to rot away in that purgatory, vegetative state imposed on them by medical progress. 😛

Oooooo, touche, Catnapper!

 

[tealamutt]

I think I can assume from the posts that most of you here are planning on practicing in a clincial setting, however as you will find out when you're in vet school (and I suspect many are already very well aware), the field is very broad and clinical practice is merely a small piece of what "vets do". If anyone on here ends up taking a research path, euthanasia is almost guaranteed to be a part of your life, and a large one at that. I'm not saying this in a negative way at all, make your own decisions as to how you might feel about it, just trying to present another viewpoint to think about as it will be brought up again and again throughout your education and career and almost certainly on an interview!

Additionally, I'll say it again, we *do* euthanize humans. Legally, both in oregon and washington state. We may call it something different and the logistics aren't quite the same (mainly because animals can't really 'assist') but pretty much humans do have this right now. http://blogs.wsj.com/health/2008/11...e-1000-legalizing-physician-assisted-suicide/ Just an FYI, because the adcoms like to hear that you're up on current events, and willing to talk about controversial issues in a non-inflammatory manner.

 

[SeaWorldVet]

I love how honest you are and how you came about asking your questions. Many times people will just say "i will NEVER KILL an animal as a vet- i don't see how any vets can do that.' eek!!...

Thanks. I didn't want to say "never" and condemn everyone for euthanizing b/c obviously, vets love animals so who would WANT to euthanize yah know? So, that's why I posed the question in that manner. I figured I must be missing something if vets think it's humane. And...I was. Now, I get it and I'm starting to look at euthanization in a different light. I'm glad I asked. Although, when it comes to convenience euthanization...no thanks. 👎 That's a different story and I think that's cruel. I'm sticking to my guns on that one. 😉

I have heard from the vet I work for that some of his classmates are practicing and do not perform any euthanasias for personal/moral/ethical reasons. I'm not sure how their clients respond to this, or if they refer euthanasias elsewhere. I haven't met any vets that won't do one, myself. It comes down to personal choice. Within the boundaries of the law, you can make your practice anything you want. If you don't want to do euthanasias, then don't, but be prepared to (politely and intelligently) defend that position, as it is in the minority...

That was my view before I posted this thread. Now, after reading everyone's response, I've changed my mind. I think it's ok if situation is extreme and all other options have been exhausted (i.e. treatment). Putting them out of their misery is better than watching them suffer.

Absolutely! Humans could never occupy that higher plane of value held by other animals! Hence, it makes sense that humans be allowed to rot away in that purgatory, vegetative state imposed on them by medical progress. 😛

This post reminds me of why I chose vet school over med school; human patients are extremely annoying. I'm really outgoing and love being around people BUT, as soon as they become patients in the healthcare system, something snaps and they start acting crazy *shivers*. Besides, my love for animals and taking care of them is uncanning! 😀

 

[twelvetigers]

Keep in mind though, euthanasia occurs in vet med because of money issues as well. Suppose a dog could be helped by treatment and has a good chance of full recovery, but the cost would be $2000 and the owner can not afford that. Without treatment, the dog will suffer/die. You could possibly consider referring them to an assistance program or advising them to get a loan. What if the cost is $5000? What if it's $7000+? What if the dog is already twelve years old? This is what I meant when I said that nothing is black and white. You say that you would consider euth in extreme situations, but what if it's only fairly bad and not extremely bad? What if it could only get worse?

Not trying to harass you, of course. Just supplying some more food for thought. 🙂

 

[SeaWorldVet]

Keep in mind though, euthanasia occurs in vet med because of money issues as well. Suppose a dog could be helped by treatment and has a good chance of full recovery, but the cost would be $2000 and the owner can not afford that. Without treatment, the dog will suffer/die. You could possibly consider referring them to an assistance program or advising them to get a loan. What if the cost is $5000? What if it's $7000+? What if the dog is already twelve years old? This is what I meant when I said that nothing is black and white. You say that you would consider euth in extreme situations, but what if it's only fairly bad and not extremely bad? What if it could only get worse?

Not trying to harass you, of course. Just supplying some more food for thought. 🙂

Oh yeah, I've heard about those situations: owners who can't afford their pets treatment so they have to get them euthanized. Hhhhmmm...that's sad 🙁.

I know you're not trying to pick on me.; you're giving good info. I appreciate you bringing that up. I forgot about those kind of situations. Well, that would be hard. I'd probably refer...or end up w/ a backyard full of pets. Oh yeah, I'll be...THAT neighbor. Jk.

Could I refer them to another vet who would euthanize, in that situation? How would that work?

 

[InfiniVet]

... as you will find out when you're in vet school (and I suspect many are already very well aware), the field is very broad and clinical practice is merely a small piece of what "vets do". If anyone on here ends up taking a research path, euthanasia is almost guaranteed to be a part of your life, and a large one at that...

As tealamutt brought up quite rightfully - there's also research Euthanasia.
If I wanna know: Do Turkeys transfer tuberculosis to chickens? If so this will be extremely relevant not only medically for chickens but to chicken producer's wallet and thus the consumer's wallet. Inoculate 30 chickens with turkey tuberculosis, watch what happens, euthanize all of them a month later and do necropsies on ALL of em whether or not they were sick/suffering.
We couldn't even start on projects involving lab mice.

There's also euthanasia with food animals so that you 'can haz cheezeburger.' Mechanical bolts followed by slashing the carotid artery with healthy adolescent cattle, gas with goats/sheep...
If we are against that, should we protest by becoming vegetarian? Can you be ethically consistent with being a guardian of animal welfare if you also eat animals?

What about deer hunting? Is that considered a merciful death?

What is even the pharmacological definition of euthanasia?

Just more food for thought. 😉
It goes on forever...I love euthanasia threads! Its good stuff to think about too, it'll be helpful in your applications & interviews

 

[InfiniVet]

Could I refer them to another vet who would euthanize, in that situation? How would that work?

Yes, you could.
But should you? Can you guarantee the owner will follow through on going to another vet if its all the way across town? Aren't you passing the buck to someone else?

 

[SeaWorldVet]

Yes, you could.
But should you? Can you guarantee the owner will follow through on going to another vet if its all the way across town? Aren't you passing the buck to someone else?

Yup. I'm definitely passing the buck to someone else. I think (I'm not a vet yet and I've never been around it...I'm just trying to predict my feelings. Who knows, they may change once I'm immersed in the vet culture) I'd feel really bad about euthanizing an animal that could be healed if it weren't for financial reasons. I know it's no one's fault, but I'd still feel bad.

About the owners, if I told them what to do, wouldn't most people do it? I know someone people don't listen so that's a toss up. Do vets euthanize in these situations b/c they don't know if the owners will listen? Most likely, I'd probably have to console the owners who probably already feel guilty for not being able to afford treatment. I guess I shouldn't put them in the position to pretty much take their pet to another vet just for euthanization. Hhhhmmm...😕

 

[Neoformans]

Having my grandmother die of lymphoma, I wish we did have euthanasia. She was really bad off the last few days. At least she got home hospice care. There's also a video on YouTube (should be able to find it if you search for it) where a little boy is dying of rabies, which is not at all uncommon in other countries, especially Asia and Africa. I personally feel there's a place for it, though others are certainly welcome to disagree. What that place is, that's the tricky part.

I definitely agree with this, the role of euthanasia is to end pain. I wish our society was more accepting of humane euthanasia in humans, I think part of the reason it's so controversial in the western world is our fear of death. What kind of life is it if you are trapped in a vegetative state or in constant debilitating pain? Although as another poster brought up, it could potentially be a slipperly slope with regards to the practical definition of any law allowing humane euthanasias in humans.

Regarding pet euthanasias, at the clinic I work at, we don't do convenience euthanasias, but again the contrast between convenience and humane euthanasia is kind of a grey area sometimes. I'm comforted by the fact that most of the pets who come in for convenience euthanasias are redirected to the SPCA where they have a chance of finding a better home.

 

[InfiniVet]

Yup. I'm definitely passing the buck to someone else. I think (I'm not a vet yet and I've never been around it...I'm just trying to predict my feelings. Who knows, they may change once I'm immersed in the vet culture) I'd feel really bad about euthanizing an animal that could be healed if it weren't for financial reasons. I know it's no one's fault, but I'd still feel bad.

About the owners, if I told them what to do, wouldn't most people do it? I know someone people don't listen so that's a toss up. Do vets euthanize in these situations b/c they don't know if the owners will listen? Most likely, I'd probably have to console the owners who probably already feel guilty for not being able to afford treatment. I guess I shouldn't put them in the position to pretty much take their pet to another vet just for euthanization. Hhhhmmm...😕

And to further complicate things:

What if the owner had brought in the animal for a convenience euthanasia and if you don't euthanize it, the owner will just drop the animal out of the car going 65mph on the highway, or inject it with Windex, or drown it themselves?
How was I able to cite such specific examples? Because I've seen all 3 examples of this. Really *&^#$% sad...but it taught me that not all animal owners are animal lovers.
One lady brought in two beautiful young boxers, she was the caretaker of an elderly man. It was in his will that when he died, he wanted the dogs euthanized so that they could be with him in the afterlife. She threatened to do it herself with sleeping pills since she was a nurse. We did it, even though we were all in tears.
Another one was a breeder whose bitch got loose and got pregnant by a neighborhood mutt. We refused to euthanize the mutt puppies so she injected them with Windex & stuck them in the freezer - not humane!!
Another one was a litter of kittens who threatened to drown them.
Another was a 2 year old lab who was too much to handle for the owners once it wasnt a puppy anymore, we wouldn't euthanize it, they threw it out the truck, somehow it barely lived & they went back for it - sudden attack of conscience?? - brought it to the clinic practically in pieces, where we then euthanized it.
Horrible. Happens, but horrible.

 

[SeaWorldVet]

And to further complicate things:

What if the owner had brought in the animal for a convenience euthanasia and if you don't euthanize it, the owner will just drop the animal out of the car going 65mph on the highway, or inject it with Windex, or drown it themselves?
How was I able to cite such specific examples? Because I've seen all 3 examples of this. Really *&^#$% sad...but it taught me that not all animal owners are animal lovers.
One lady brought in two beautiful young boxers, she was the caretaker of an elderly man. It was in his will that when he died, he wanted the dogs euthanized so that they could be with him in the afterlife. She threatened to do it herself with sleeping pills since she was a nurse. We did it, even though we were all in tears.
Another one was a breeder whose bitch got loose and got pregnant by a neighborhood mutt. We refused to euthanize the mutt puppies so she injected them with Windex & stuck them in the freezer - not humane!!
Another one was a litter of kittens who threatened to drown them.
Another was a 2 year old lab who was too much to handle for the owners once it wasnt a puppy anymore, we wouldn't euthanize it, they threw it out the truck, somehow it barely lived & they went back for it - sudden attack of conscience?? - brought it to the clinic practically in pieces, where we then euthanized it.
Horrible. Happens, but horrible.

OMG...that's F'n ridiculous! People are out of control these days. Animals have feelings too!!! 😡 Well, that'll give me something to think about when those situations arise. It'll be a long time from now but it's still coming. I guess I'll no longer assume that animal owners are animal lovers. Good heads up!

You guys have been very helpful on this forum. Thanks!

 

[twelvetigers]

We euth'd a 4 month old puppy last week because it had broken its front leg by falling off the bed & was treated ($1000+) and then came in two weeks later unable to put weight on its back foot. We weren't sure if it had torn its cruciate ligament or what, but the owner couldn't handle another $1500 on a dog she'd had less than a month.

Even if you "refer" euths to another clinic... that means the other clinic is gong to make the $50-$125 for the service, and the client might decide to just go to that vet from then on. So it might not be a good idea businesswise to refer... more food for thought.

 

[mistifical]

Yup. I'm definitely passing the buck to someone else. I think (I'm not a vet yet and I've never been around it...I'm just trying to predict my feelings. Who knows, they may change once I'm immersed in the vet culture) I'd feel really bad about euthanizing an animal that could be healed if it weren't for financial reasons. I know it's no one's fault, but I'd still feel bad.

But there's a lot of conditions where the animal could be healed if the owners could afford it where the animal might be in a lot of pain without treatment (hit by car, stable, but broken leg, for example). What's going to make you feel worse... a) sending the dog with the broken leg to another vet for it to be euthanized (because owners can't afford amputation or orthopedic surgery or even just frequent cast/splint checks and changes)... this dog is going to be in pain on the way there, is the other vet open? do they need to make an appointment first? or b) knowing that ultimately these owners cannot afford to do anything except euthanize this dog, and that you can help them and the dog by ending any suffering the pet may be going through much sooner than if they were to take the dog elsewhere.

Now if you were to refer them to another vet in the practice... that's different.

 

[mistifical]

Even if you "refer" euths to another clinic... that means the other clinic is gong to make the $50-$125 for the service, and the client might decide to just go to that vet from then on. So it might not be a good idea businesswise to refer... more food for thought.

Agreed. Most (or at least a lot) pet owners would likely continue to go to the clinic where they can have their pets seen for wellness exams, vaccines, less costly problems, and can also have their pets euthanized. If they are referred to another clinic for this service, I think they would likely return to this other clinic with other pets because they were willing to provide the service they wanted originally. Of course there are clients who will choose to euthanize pets at an emergency clinic rather than their regular vet so that they don't have to ever associate a wellness visit with the euthanasia of a previous pet.

 

[david594]

Yup. I'm definitely passing the buck to someone else. I think (I'm not a vet yet and I've never been around it...I'm just trying to predict my feelings. Who knows, they may change once I'm immersed in the vet culture) I'd feel really bad about euthanizing an animal that could be healed if it weren't for financial reasons. I know it's no one's fault, but I'd still feel bad.

This is doing a disservice to both the animal and the owner and I hope if this question came in during an interview an Ad-com would pretty much reject your application on this view alone.

If you know a suffering(but treatable) animal is going to be euthanized, and you refuse to do it and force the owner to bring the animal elsewhere you are only needlessly prolonging the suffering of the animal. What if the animal dies in route to another facility? You would be allowing an animal to suffer because of your own personal convictions and probably borders on malpractice.

I work at an emergency hospital and easily >90% of the animals could go on to live a potentially much longer life if the owners had opted for treatment.

You are also going to put the owner in a very difficult and awkward situation when you basically call them a bad person for not having the proper finances to treat their animal.(which is what you are telling them by refusing to euthanize)

This post reminds me of why I chose vet school over med school; human patients are extremely annoying. I'm really outgoing and love being around people BUT, as soon as they become patients in the healthcare system, something snaps and they start acting crazy *shivers*. Besides, my love for animals and taking care of them is uncanning!

Yeah, instead of having human patients you will simply have human clients who dictate what care you can provide for your animal patients. Clinical veterinary medicine has huge amounts of people interaction. And to make things worse, you are looking for cash for services to take care of a member of their family. You are going to make a lot of people cry, some good situations(but mostly bad). You are also going to get sworn at, to your face and behind your back, as many people assume you are trying to rip them off.

The day dogs start showing up with credit cards attached to their collar will be the day one can do clinical medicine without actually being having to work with "crazy" people.

And how much interaction have you had with human patients?

 

[SeaWorldVet]

This is doing a disservice to both the animal and the owner and I hope if this question came in during an interview an Ad-com would pretty much reject your application on this view alone.
...

The day dogs start showing up with credit cards attached to their collar will be the day one can do clinical medicine without actually being having to work with "crazy" people.

And how much interaction have you had with human patients?

Glad you wish my app would be rejected due to my post/thoughts...thanks for your input. Perhaps you didn't read this entire thread: I said my views could change...you never know. I'm not even in vet school...I'm just trying to get information.

I've had a lot of interaction w/ human patients; say...4+ years. I'm a non-trad applicant. I know what I'm talking about when it comes to patient interaction. Also, I'm assuming you missed the part where I said I love people but something changes as soon as they become patients. I don't have a problem being around people...I like people. Yes, some owners may be annoying, rude, demanding, etc...that just come with the job.

Overall, I've learned that I'd rather be a vet instead of a physician (which is the reason why I am no longer pre-med lol). If you don't believe me when I say patients are crazy...venture over to the pre-med forums and enjoy the stories. Unfortuantely, they're not exaggerating. 😱

 

[david594]

Glad you wish my app would be rejected due to my post/thoughts...thanks for your input. Perhaps you didn't read this entire thread: I said my views could change...you never know. I'm not even in vet school...I'm just trying to get information.

I've had a lot of interaction w/ human patients; say...4+ years. I guess you missed the part where I said I love people but something changes as soon as they become patients. I don't have a problem being around people...I like people. Yes, some owners may be annoying, rude, demanding, etc...that just come with the job.

Overall, I've learned that I'd rather be a vet instead of a physician (which is the reason why I am no longer pre-med lol). If you don't believe me when I say patients are crazy...venture over to the pre-med forums and enjoy the stories. Unfortuantely, they're not exaggerating. 😱

I rode an ambulance for 2 years. I am well aware what human patients can be like. Been kick, spit on, and sworn at by many of them. Human patients can be quite interesting.

I don't think your app should be rejected because of your posts/thoughts. I think it would be rejected because you show a naive understanding of veterinary medicine and the importance of euthanasia. And your view on euthanasia put your personal interests above that of the best interests of your patients.

I hope your views do change, because otherwise they could be a huge hinderance to your application.

 

[SeaWorldVet]

I rode an ambulance for 2 years. I am well aware what human patients can be like. Been kick, spit on, and sworn at by many of them. Human patients can be quite interesting.

I don't think your app should be rejected because of your posts/thoughts. I think it would be rejected because you show a naive understanding of veterinary medicine and the importance of euthanasia. And your view on euthanasia put your personal interests above that of the best interests of your patients.

I hope your views do change, because otherwise they could be a huge hinderance to your application.

*Sigh*. All I have to say, in response to this, is re-read post #8 on this thread. Pay close attention to the LAST sentence.

And yes, my views will most likely change once I increase my knowledge and exposure to vet med. Which, of course, would obviously happen well before the interview process.

 

[pressmom]

I must admit I agree with david. The OP has a limited understanding of euthanasia and a limited amount of exposure to veterinary medicine. SeaWorldVet, you must have more of an open mind. You're being very naive as to what practicing vet med is all about. It isn't sunshine, rainbows, and puppies. PLEASE go to a vet's office, preferably an emergency one, and talk to the vets there. You'll find them to be caring professionals who make difficult decisions everyday.

 

[SeaWorldVet]

I must admit I agree with david. The OP has a limited understanding of euthanasia and a limited amount of exposure to veterinary medicine. SeaWorldVet, you must have more of an open mind. You're being very naive as to what practicing vet med is all about. It isn't sunshine, rainbows, and puppies. PLEASE go to a vet's office, preferably an emergency one, and talk to the vets there. You'll find them to be caring professionals who make difficult decisions everyday.

I'm going to shadow and talk to vets. I'm trying to set up volunteer opportunities at an aquarium, animal shelter and a private practice vet clinic. I tried to volunteer @ an emergency vet clinic but they said they don't accept volunteers. 😕 Perhaps it was this specific emergency clinic. Although, I guess I can always speak w/ the veterinarians there.

Question: Isn't the day-to-day practice of a vet in an emergency clinic different than a private practice vet? I'm assuming the answer is "yes". I'm also assuming that if you work at an emergency clinic, you'll have more euthanization? I, by no means, am interested in working in an emergency clinic (not b/c of euth...just personal interests) but I guess it's still important to gain knowledge in the different fields of clinical practice.

 

[wi girl]

Please keep in mind that any private practice clinic acts as an emergency clinic while it is open. If a dog gets hit by a car between 8a-6p the owners will be for sure going to their regular vet and not the emergency one. During the weekdays, emergency clinics are usually pretty dead.

 

[sofficat]

Someone brings in a litter of kittens with their stray mother. The person that found them surrenders them to your clinic (or more commonly you find a meowing box in the morning outside the clinic door). They all are clinically healthy, adorable and sweet (even the mother!) So the next thing you do is test them for Feline Aids and Leukemia. They all turn up positive for Feline Leukemia. What do you do?
a) since they are healthy you adopt them out like you would normally do
b) answer ‘a’ plus you tell the people who adopt them that they have a highly contagious disease that will most likely shorten their life span significantly and cause them to get sick with everything that a normal cat would be resistant to
c) you keep them all as personal pets, having to isolate them from your other cats
d) you try to contact a feline leukemia and aids rescue group for all of them
e) since studies show that up to 33% of kittens can fight off leukemia, you keep the kittens for 4-6 months and hope that 1/3 of them fight off the infection and can be adopted…. You then euthanize all the other kittens you have now grown very attached to (oh, and you euthanized the mother 4-6 months ago)
f) you euthanize all the kittens and cat as soon as they come up positive
g) you get another vet in the clinic to do it
h) you drop the kittens off at another practice and tell the vets they are positive for leukemia
Oh- I forgot to mention one thing… this happens 3-4 times a month, 12 months a year….

One more point....

There is a huge population of pet owners who don’t particularly love or even care for their pet. You will be shocked when you start getting experience at a clinic what can walk through that door. YOU might give up your car to do life saving surgery on your pet that might extend his or her life for 6 more months, but you are NOT the majority. Pets are property and owners can do what they want and it is your job to put the pets best interest in mind and deal with that owner… but ultimately it is the owner who has the last word (most of the time).
The best thing you can do is get hired (not just volunteer) at a clinic and start getting hands on with your patients and clients. Only then will you be able to decide if you want to be a vet and how to handle things and how to feel about things.

 

[pressmom]

I'm going to shadow and talk to vets. I'm trying to set up volunteer opportunities at an aquarium, animal shelter and a private practice vet clinic. I tried to volunteer @ an emergency vet clinic but they said they don't accept volunteers. 😕 Perhaps it was this specific emergency clinic. Although, I guess I can always speak w/ the veterinarians there.

Question: Isn't the day-to-day practice of a vet in an emergency clinic different than a private practice vet? I'm assuming the answer is "yes". I'm also assuming that if you work at an emergency clinic, you'll have more euthanization? I, by no means, am interested in working in an emergency clinic (not b/c of euth...just personal interests) but I guess it's still important to gain knowledge in the different fields of clinical practice.

At an emergency clinic you're going to get more exposure to the difficult parts of veterinary medicine. Like another poster said, you're still going to get emergencies at a private practice clinic, just not as many. My best friend took her first vet job at an emergency clinic and said, "It really shows you if this is what you really want to do." It can be very fast paced, busy, and you'll see all sorts of owners--from the ones willing to do anything to the ones that, like sofficat said, dump at the door. Especially if it is the only emergency clinic in the area. I think it's the quickest way to see several aspects of vet med--from complicated emergency surgeries to euthanasia. She got to see all sorts of things that I never got to see working 2-3 days a week in a regular clinic.

 

[SeaWorldVet]

Do you guys think I can get a vet job w/ no vet experience? I have medical experience but I've never worked with animals. Most of the vet tech job postings I see require previous experience *sigh*. That's why I'm starting w/ volunteering in hopes of landing a job asap.

 

[cateyes]

You may not be able to start out as a tech right away. See if they'll let you volunteer at a clinic, and do anything you can in order to be useful. Work in the kennel room and clean cages, do laundry or anything else that you see that needs doing. It's a great way to get your foot in the door, and for the veterinarians to get to know you. When a position opens up, they may be more willing to hire you because you're a known entity (steady and hardworking) and take the time to train you. Any experience in an animal clinic is good experience, and will expose you to different aspects of the profession.
Good luck with everything!!

 

[twelvetigers]

We might seem like we're being overly tough, but we all just want you to know 100% what you're getting into. Too many people try and pursue vet med because they "like animals," and your (initial) opinions on euthanasia have made us wonder if you really know what it is to be a veterinarian.

Don't let us scare you, just do your research, get that experience however you can, and ask us if you have any other questions. The forum will likely respond in a kinder light with less controversial topics. 🙂

 

[SeaWorldVet]

You guys aren't scaring me...I'm a tough cookie! 😎 But, I'll have to say, you guys are kind of giving me a run for my money but that's a good thing. You guys are bringing up things (scenarios) I've never really thought of so I'm appreciative. I'd rather have you guys point out some of the naive stuff I say b/c I'll learn the "truth" eventually. I'm researching a lot of things and hoping to start volunteering asap. I've been considering which career to pursue for a while (comparing diff healthcare careers) and I'm pretty sure vet med is the best choice for me. I'll definitely post more questions if I can think of any...

Oh yeah, I've thought of one already: Speaking of controversial issues, what are some of the controversial issues in vet med? Which ones will they ask me about in an interview? It's never too early to start thinking about and preparing my lawyeresque-responses. 😛

 

[nyanko]

Oh yeah, I've thought of one already: Speaking of controversial issues, what are some of the controversial issues in vet med? Which ones will they ask me about in an interview? It's never too early to start thinking about and preparing my lawyeresque-responses. 😛

Convenience euthanasia is one that was asked about a lot last cycle, for sure. For others, you should look at the interview feedback on SDN and also do a forum search in the pre-vet forum for the ethics stuff. I'm sure we've had threads about that before..

 

[twelvetigers]

Haha. Off the top of my head:

Animal rights vs. animal welfare
Horse slaughtering
Euthanasia situations

Those are the big 3 I can think of... plus plenty of questions about how YOU would handle situations etc.

This link is a help for knowing what to expect in interviews, but don't let it freak you out this far in advance of your actually being in that situation.

http://more.studentdoctor.net/schoollist.php?type=8

 

[david594]

SeeWorld,

Like others have been saying try emailing all the wellness clinics in the area about shadowing or volunteering opportunities. A lot will turn you down for insurance and liability reasons, but if you try enough places you are likely to find one that will take you.

Its also pretty unlikely you will get hired into a "vet tech" position, but most places don't require any experience for "kennel" techs.

You should also check out the 24 hour/emergency hospitals in your area. They tend to have more of a division of labor where kennel is separate from techs is separate from nurses(where smaller wellness tend to be be tech=jack of all trades). So an emergency hospital will have more formal positions for untrained/new people.

 

[SeaWorldVet]

Thanks! I'll check out those websites and try not to get too worked up over them. Seeing as I've missed the Fall 09 deadline I wouldn't enroll until Fall 2010...geez, that's a long way away!

....
You should also check out the 24 hour/emergency hospitals in your area. They tend to have more of a division of labor where kennel is separate from techs is separate from nurses(where smaller wellness tend to be be tech=jack of all trades). So an emergency hospital will have more formal positions for untrained/new people.

Thanks, David! I'll check into the Kennel tech positions. 👍