early decision too risky?

[deleted382095]

Just out of curiously how many of you would apply to an early decision program? The SOM at my current school has EDP, but I couldn't find any information regarding how many people got accepted in the past online. UG cGPA 3.3, M cGPA 3.5 PhD cGPA 3.7 and have not yet taken MCAT yet, but the average MCAT score at the SOM of my interest was roughly 29 for Class of 2017. I know all the biochemistry faculty at that SOM because they're from my department and they're my PI's collaborators.

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[midnight0il]

I don't know what the stats are for EDP and I'm sure it differs from school to school, but I don't understand why anyone would do EDP. Does it increase your odds of getting in? If not, then it's like voluntarily stepping on to a sinking ship. You're stuck with the one school until they accept or reject you so late in the cycle that it severely hurts your chances at other schools. If the school is the only one that you can attend, then I'd say go for it, but if not, don't go down the EDP road.

 

[T3ckFr3s]

Agreed, I've heard that the risk of being rejected by the school and leaving the cycle empty handed heavily outweighs the advantages of an EDP.

 

[deleted407021]

I would say it depends upon the school. Some are very numbers focused while others, like the one I'm interested in, are concerned about students adhering to their mission. If you can exceed the average numbers for the school and still meet their mission, than EDP might be the cheapest, least stress inducing option. However, there is substantial risk involved due to the possibility of not getting in and having to wait an entire year to apply again. The school I mentioned above takes a large percentage of their incoming class through EDP and I have known many successful applicants who went that route. But, I know many still who tried the first time and didn't get in, so they had to wait another year. If you can exceed their standards, meet their mission and, most importantly, want to go to that school without reserve, EDP may be a viable route.

 

[SN12357]

The only reason for doing early decision that I can see is if you absolutely need to stay in one geographic area, and this need overrides everything else.

Successful EDP applicants generally need to be MORE competitive than the regular applicant pool, not less. Therefore, if you're competitive enough for EDP to be worth the risk (since you'd be so late applying everywhere else) it's almost always going to be worth it to apply normally so you have at least the possibility of multiple options.

 

[IncognitoGuy]

The only reason for doing early decision that I can see is if you absolutely need to stay in one geographic area, and this need overrides everything else.

Successful EDP applicants generally need to be MORE competitive than the regular applicant pool, not less. Therefore, if you're competitive enough for EDP to be worth the risk (since you'd be so late applying everywhere else) it's almost always going to be worth it to apply normally so you have at least the possibility of multiple options.

He's got it right. Most successful EDP applicants I've seen have a very good reason for only applying to that one school. It might be worth contacting them and see if they're willing to evaluate your chances for EDP once you get your MCAT score.

 

[nemo123]

It also depends on the school. Some EDP schools are said to be so slow that by the time you get your decision it's mid to late-September and your app will be complete at other schools very late. However, there are a couple schools that have a very quick turnaround for EDP applicants and you'll hear a decision almost right away (within 2 weeks of your interview), and it won't be too much of a detriment to do EDP at that school (as long as you know that school is your top choice schools and your stats fall in line with the school's averages).

 

[Espadaleader]

You have a PHD which is a huge factor that may outweigh UG GPA because the PHD was in basic science. An Adcom told me that early decision was not a good idea because of the fickle nature of medical schools (If you don't get in early, you're late) and because you miss out on other offers that schools may give you. You have a masters & PHD. You're getting into multiple schools ASAP.

If you haven't already, talk to an Adcom.

 

[Amygdarya]

I agree with those who are saying that for EDP you need to be an above average applicant for that school and that you need a *really* good reason to apply to that school specifically. Speaking of reasons:

I know all the biochemistry faculty at that SOM because they're from my department and they're my PI's collaborators.

I'm afraid the fact that you did research with the school's faculty is not a good enough reason. You may think that an association with the school gives you an advantage, but it's not necessarily so. I've seen quite a few examples of people getting rejected from schools they did their graduate degrees and/or research at. On the other hand, I do know some people who got accepted to the schools they had a research association with, but I would argue that those people got accepted on their own merits, not because of the association, i.e. they would get accepted to those schools even if they were not associated with them.

You have a PHD which is a huge factor that may outweigh UG GPA because the PHD was in basic science... You have a masters & PHD. You're getting into multiple schools ASAP.

Not true. A PhD *does not* compensate for a lackluster GPA or MCAT. And sure as hell a PhD does not guarantee an acceptance to medical school - just search for threads of people with PhDs applying to medical schools. Solid GPA, MCAT and ECs are what gets people with PhDs into medical schools - exactly the same things that get people without PhDs into medical schools. The only advantage someone with a PhD may have is by piquing interest of research-oriented schools, but those schools also require high stats.
I do agree with the other points you made:

...An Adcom told me that early decision was not a good idea because of the fickle nature of medical schools (If you don't get in early, you're late) and because you miss out on other offers that schools may give you.
...
If you haven't already, talk to an Adcom.

Chemistry Cat 3.0, if you have a good reason to stay at that school (other than the fact that you do research there), do talk to adcoms there about your interest in the school and your chances.

I'm sorry if I sound harsh about the value of having a PhD, I'm just being honest with you. I have one of those, and based on my experience this cycle* my fellow applicants/interviewees have been far more impressed by my PhD than my adcoms/interviewers.
(* - I've been very lucky this cycle, but I attribute this mostly to factors other than my PhD, including a high MCAT and postbac/undergrad GPA, substantial clinical experience and a whole bunch of other interesting life experiences)
Also, based on your previous posts, you *have to* get clinical experience ASAP. It's important for any medical school applicant, but I could argue that it's even more critical for people with PhDs because you have to prove that you really want to work with people and are not just looking for a different venue to do research at.
Also, take MCAT really seriously, as it may very well determine whether/which medical school you end up at. A strong MCAT makes a big difference. Study hard for the test a practice *a lot*. Don't assume you'll do well because you have a PhD (I kind of did that the first time I took MCAT and got a 30, a year later I took the exam seriously and practiced for it like crazy and got a 38 - which I believe has helped me a lot in this application cycle).

 

[Mountaineer12]

I did EDP and it was one of the best decisions I ever made. That being said, WVU's EDP is a little different from other schools but I can share my experience.

I was OOS, but went to WVU for undergrad and was in the process of becoming a resident. Almost every OOSer is waitlisted and I didn't want to deal with that so I did EDP. I had a better GPA than the average, but an average MCAT. I also got a $20,000 scholarship for doing EDP and I could relax the whole year.

I know someone who didn't get in EDP and had an acceptance at another MD school by December (we were notified October 2nd) so it isn't too late at all schools despite what people say. I also applied to DO schools so I would have a backup, which made me feel better about doing EDP.

I would contact the school you're interested in and ask then about stats of getting in via EDP and maybe arrange a meeting with an ADCOM to see if you have a legitimate shot at EDP. I did this and it helped ease my mind a lot. Hope this helps!

 

[Davida]

I'm sorry if I sound harsh about the value of having a PhD, I'm just being honest with you. I have one of those, and based on my experience this cycle* my fellow applicants/interviewees have been far more impressed by my PhD than my adcoms/interviewers.

Seconding this, with anecdotal evidence. Two other people in my graduate program and I applied to the medical school at our university. I was the only one accepted out of us three. And not only were 2/3 rejected, but my interviewer actually brought up a list of his major concerns about my application explicitly during my interview. One of them was that I had bothered to go to graduate school prior to applying for medical school.

I definitely got the impression from him that my graduate degree was more of a liability than an asset.

ETA: The major good reason to apply EDP is if you have some really compelling reason to stay in the area (i.e., kids in the local school district, spouse with a non-relocatable job). Otherwise, just read what everyone else wrote.

 

[Espadaleader]

I agree with those who are saying that for EDP you need to be an above average applicant for that school and that you need a *really* good reason to apply to that school specifically. Speaking of reasons:

I'm afraid the fact that you did research with the school's faculty is not a good enough reason. You may think that an association with the school gives you an advantage, but it's not necessarily so. I've seen quite a few examples of people getting rejected from schools they did their graduate degrees and/or research at. On the other hand, I do know some people who got accepted to the schools they had a research association with, but I would argue that those people got accepted on their own merits, not because of the association, i.e. they would get accepted to those schools even if they were not associated with them.

Not true. A PhD *does not* compensate for a lackluster GPA or MCAT. And sure as hell a PhD does not guarantee an acceptance to medical school - just search for threads of people with PhDs applying to medical schools. Solid GPA, MCAT and ECs are what gets people with PhDs into medical schools - exactly the same things that get people without PhDs into medical schools. The only advantage someone with a PhD may have is by piquing interest of research-oriented schools, but those schools also require high stats.
I do agree with the other points you made:

Chemistry Cat 3.0, if you have a good reason to stay at that school (other than the fact that you do research there), do talk to adcoms there about your interest in the school and your chances.

I'm sorry if I sound harsh about the value of having a PhD, I'm just being honest with you. I have one of those, and based on my experience this cycle* my fellow applicants/interviewees have been far more impressed by my PhD than my adcoms/interviewers.
(* - I've been very lucky this cycle, but I attribute this mostly to factors other than my PhD, including a high MCAT and postbac/undergrad GPA, substantial clinical experience and a whole bunch of other interesting life experiences)
Also, based on your previous posts, you *have to* get clinical experience ASAP. It's important for any medical school applicant, but I could argue that it's even more critical for people with PhDs because you have to prove that you really want to work with people and are not just looking for a different venue to do research at.
Also, take MCAT really seriously, as it may very well determine whether/which medical school you end up at. A strong MCAT makes a big difference. Study hard for the test a practice *a lot*. Don't assume you'll do well because you have a PhD (I kind of did that the first time I took MCAT and got a 30, a year later I took the exam seriously and practiced for it like crazy and got a 38 - which I believe has helped me a lot in this application cycle).

I am not saying you can crappy metrics and a PHD will outweigh everything. However, in this particular case the OP is a borderline MD admit looking purely at numbers. Assuming a 30-32+ MCAT, if the OP applies broadly he/she will surely get into a school. I am not a mind reader but I think its a safe bet. What do you think?

 

[Acosi]

.

 

[Espadaleader]

I did EDP and it was one of the best decisions I ever made. That being said, WVU's EDP is a little different from other schools but I can share my experience.

I was OOS, but went to WVU for undergrad and was in the process of becoming a resident. Almost every OOSer is waitlisted and I didn't want to deal with that so I did EDP. I had a better GPA than the average, but an average MCAT. I also got a $20,000 scholarship for doing EDP and I could relax the whole year.

I know someone who didn't get in EDP and had an acceptance at another MD school by December (we were notified October 2nd) so it isn't too late at all schools despite what people say. I also applied to DO schools so I would have a backup, which made me feel better about doing EDP.

I would contact the school you're interested in and ask then about stats of getting in via EDP and maybe arrange a meeting with an ADCOM to see if you have a legitimate shot at EDP. I did this and it helped ease my mind a lot. Hope this helps!

I would still argue that it is late. It puts you at a huge disadvantage for rolling schools. That's a fact.

Most schools (rolling/non-rolling) have deadlines on Oct 15th or Nov 1st. In order for a EDP applicant that did not get in to apply broadly and fill out the secondaries within a two-week window is not ideal. Your EDP is a very special circumstance and that fact that your friend applied in Oct, got an interview within weeks, and was accepted by Dec not something to bet on.

If you are extremely competitive, EDP is a risk because you're likely to get multiple interviews and offers from schools.
If your are a weak applicant, if prevents you from applying broadly.
I agree with @Davida. EDP is for applicants applying to moderately competitive schools that would like to stay in the area.

 

[487806]

Just out of curiously how many of you would apply to an early decision program? The SOM at my current school has EDP, but I couldn't find any information regarding how many people got accepted in the past online. UG cGPA 3.3, M cGPA 3.5 PhD cGPA 3.7 and have not yet taken MCAT yet, but the average MCAT score at the SOM of my interest was roughly 29 for Class of 2017. I know all the biochemistry faculty at that SOM because they're from my department and they're my PI's collaborators.

I decided not to apply EDP to the med school affiliated with my UG despite getting emails from them only because it's risky for me. I don't feel comfortable investing my chances on one school. Suppose I get rejected from that school, then by default i'll be considered a reapplicant in the future cycle. Not worth it for me. Plus I want to try out something new, so applying broadly (though not crazily like 30+ school) is important.

 

[Mountaineer12]

I would still argue that it is late. It puts you at a huge disadvantage for rolling schools. That's a fact.

Most schools (rolling/non-rolling) have deadlines on Oct 15th or Nov 1st. In order for a EDP applicant that did not get in to apply broadly and fill out the secondaries within a two-week window is not ideal. Your EDP is a very special circumstance and that fact that your friend applied in Oct, got an interview within weeks, and was accepted by Dec not something to bet on.

If you are extremely competitive, EDP is a risk because you're likely to get multiple interviews and offers from schools.
If your are a weak applicant, if prevents you from applying broadly.
I agree with @Davida. EDP is for applicants applying to moderately competitive schools that would like to stay in the area.

I completely agree, I was just trying to show that it's not a complete impossibility. Under some circumstances it's worth it, but you have to be willing to do DO or take a year off.

 

[Amygdarya]

I am not saying you can crappy metrics and a PHD will outweigh everything. However, in this particular case the OP is a borderline MD admit looking purely at numbers. Assuming a 30-32+ MCAT, if the OP applies broadly he/she will surely get into a school. I am not a mind reader but I think its a safe bet. What do you think?

In all honesty and all seriousness, I don't think *anyone* is guaranteed to get into medical school regardless of the stats. Just check out AAMC statistics to see how many people even with high stats don't get in anywhere, not to mention the anecdotal evidence of high stats people and, more relevant to this thread, people with PhDs reporting their rejections on SDN.

Speaking of the OP, I'm not a fortune teller, but I believe (s)he does have a chance of getting into medical school, assuming (s)he gets a decent MCAT score, clinical exposure that is worth talking about and applies early and often widely, including DO schools (the thing is, most MD schools won't even consider graduate GPA and will look at his/her 3.3 undergraduate GPA which is below average for US MD schools; DO schools are more forgiving). Just like any applicant *without* PhD

The point I'm trying to make here is not that OP doesn't have a chance - (s)he does - but that one should not be overconfident if he or she has a PhD. Yes, getting a PhD is a lot of work (and I should know that) yada yada, but medical schools don't care much about it, that's just the way it is. Plus, there are not as few PhD applicants as one may think - I've met several on my interview trail, and I only interviewed at 7 schools. Bottom line: people with PhDs are not that special and don't receive any special treatment from medical schools.

 

[deleted382095]

Thank you all for your insightful feedback. I will most likely not applying to EDPs. The speciality I plan to pursuit is highly relevant to my current research topics and personal experiences, and I just need to shadow a couple of physicians and study for the new MCAT.

If I graduate on May 2016, then I will have to apply on May 2015 and take the MCAT in either 2014 or 2015 for class of 2019 correct?

 

[deleted407021]

I'm graduating the same year as you and I planned on taking the old MCAT this year, but upon making the decision to apply the summer after I graduate, I'm taking the new MCAT in 2015 (I feel like I'm not mature enough to handle it now and I don't want it to expire at certain schools). If you want to enter school right after graduation, then you should take it the year you apply, or if you are good to go now, take it in August of next year after studying all summer. If you can focus 100% on preparing you should do very well. If you take it in 2014 you will also avoid the uncertain changes of the new MCAT.

 

[CarlosDanger]

Thank you all for your insightful feedback. I will most likely not applying to EDPs. The speciality I plan to pursuit is highly relevant to my current research topics and personal experiences, and I just need to shadow a couple of physicians and study for the new MCAT.

If I graduate on May 2016, then I will have to apply on May 2015 and take the MCAT in either 2014 or 2015 for class of 2019 correct?

If you graduate in May 2016 (and want to go straight in), your app cycle will open online during summer 2015, and by that time you'll want to have already taken the MCAT and received your score, so try to take it at the end of April of 2015 at the very latest just to be safe.

I personally think some people are being a little harsh about your chances on this thread. There are not many applicants with a PhD applying to med school, and if you present it the right way, it can be a huge advantage. The reason why people with PhDs don't have successful apps could be:

1.) They didn't care about their grades during grad school, which in my experience, most grad students don't.
2.) They don't fully understand what a good medical school application looks like - its completely different from a grad school app. They probably don't have good enough ECs, clinical exposure, knowledge about medicine, etc.
3.) They haven't prepared a convincing enough reason about why they're switching from research to clinical medicine.

Anyway...EDP totally depends on the school. In my home state, kids apply EDP because statically they have a better chance of acceptance, even if their numbers are average for that school. I don't think theres really any data on EDP applicants per school, so we don't know if you have to be a lot more competitive than the regular decision pool. Some schools might accept 30% of their class EDP, and others might accept 1 person. I personally think its a huge risk and probably a bad decision no matter what. If you don't absolutely have to be at that school, then don't do it.

 

[deleted382095]

I'm graduating the same year as you and I planned on taking the old MCAT this year, but upon making the decision to apply the summer after I graduate, I'm taking the new MCAT in 2015 (I feel like I'm not mature enough to handle it now and I don't want it to expire at certain schools). If you want to enter school right after graduation, then you should take it the year you apply, or if you are good to go now, take it in August of next year after studying all summer. If you can focus 100% on preparing you should do very well. If you take it in 2014 you will also avoid the uncertain changes of the new MCAT.

If you graduate in May 2016 (and want to go straight in), your app cycle will open online during summer 2015, and by that time you'll want to have already taken the MCAT and received your score, so try to take it at the end of April of 2015 at the very latest just to be safe.

I personally think some people are being a little harsh about your chances on this thread. There are not many applicants with a PhD applying to med school, and if you present it the right way, it can be a huge advantage. The reason why people with PhDs don't have successful apps could be:

1.) They didn't care about their grades during grad school, which in my experience, most grad students don't.
2.) They don't fully understand what a good medical school application looks like - its completely different from a grad school app. They probably don't have good enough ECs, clinical exposure, knowledge about medicine, etc.
3.) They haven't prepared a convincing enough reason about why they're switching from research to clinical medicine.

Anyway...EDP totally depends on the school. In my home state, kids apply EDP because statically they have a better chance of acceptance, even if their numbers are average for that school. I don't think theres really any data on EDP applicants per school, so we don't know if you have to be a lot more competitive than the regular decision pool. Some schools might accept 30% of their class EDP, and others might accept 1 person. I personally think its a huge risk and probably a bad decision no matter what. If you don't absolutely have to be at that school, then don't do it.

Thank you BrainsIsCool and CarlosDanger. I think I might study for the old MCAT before the new one comes out in 2015 mainly because the price for old MCAT prep books might go down because of this, and I know a couple of my friends took them this year so perhaps they could give me some pointers.

I do agree some of the feedbacks on SDN can sound pretty harsh. However, I think it depends on how you take it. Some of them can be really beneficial and help me improve my application portfolio when I apply in 2015. Moreover, it helps to remind myself not to sound arrogant or conceit during interviews because I have a doctorate in chemistry.

 

[Amygdarya]

I personally think some people are being a little harsh about your chances on this thread. There are not many applicants with a PhD applying to med school, and if you present it the right way, it can be a huge advantage. The reason why people with PhDs don't have successful apps could be:

1.) They didn't care about their grades during grad school, which in my experience, most grad students don't.
2.) They don't fully understand what a good medical school application looks like - its completely different from a grad school app. They probably don't have good enough ECs, clinical exposure, knowledge about medicine, etc.
3.) They haven't prepared a convincing enough reason about why they're switching from research to clinical medicine.

Anyway...EDP totally depends on the school. In my home state, kids apply EDP because statically they have a better chance of acceptance, even if their numbers are average for that school. I don't think theres really any data on EDP applicants per school, so we don't know if you have to be a lot more competitive than the regular decision pool. Some schools might accept 30% of their class EDP, and others might accept 1 person. I personally think its a huge risk and probably a bad decision no matter what. If you don't absolutely have to be at that school, then don't do it.

At the risk of sounding harsh again - if I understand it correctly, you're applying to medical schools this year, right? So you're not an adcom, right? Do you have a PhD yourself? If no, then you're a perfect example of what I mentioned above: applicants who don't have PhDs themselves are typically a lot more impressed with other applicants' PhDs than adcoms are. Harsh or not, this is just the way it is: you may *think* that having a PhD provides a huge advantage, but it's not necessarily so in reality. I'm just being realistic with the OP - and I'm actually one applying with a PhD, not to mention that I know quite a few other people who applied/are applying to medical schools with varying degrees of success. The only situation having a PhD helps is when you're considered by research-heavy schools - but for you to catch their attention in the first place, you need to have high stats, just like an applicant without a PhD.

Now, I agree with your reasons for why some people with PhDs are not successful applicants - but notice that all of these reasons apply to unsuccessful applicants without PhDs (if you generalize reason number 3 to "why medicine"). And your reason number 2 actually supports my being "harsh", or as I prefer calling it, realistic: all I'm doing here is telling the OP that (s)he has to prepare a strong medical school application, just like any other applicant, regardless of having a PhD. If you do a search for this year's or even older posts of people with PhDs, you will find some evidence to what I'm saying and will see that I'm not alone in this opinion. In fact, why don't I call @QofQuimica here