Earnings potential for Clinical Psychologist

[RCCH11]

I've spent so much time thinking about Clinical psychology from a social welfare perspective- wanting to help patients and contribute to our understanding of the mind- that I never really nailed down what I should expect after training. Now I am looking at tuitions and trying to calculate a return on investment. What are realistic earnings in the North East United States?

Thanks all!

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[MCParent]

http://www.apa.org/workforce/publications/15-health-service-providers/index.aspx

 

[Sanman]

Also:

http://www.apa.org/workforce/publications/2013-salaries/index.aspx

 

[deleted343839]

If you are interested in academic medical center jobs, the AAMC salary data are a little harder to access but the figures are pretty realistic.

 

[madeincanada]

I've spent so much time thinking about Clinical psychology from a social welfare perspective- wanting to help patients and contribute to our understanding of the mind- that I never really nailed down what I should expect after training. Now I am looking at tuitions and trying to calculate a return on investment. What are realistic earnings in the North East United States?

Thanks all!

If return on investment is a major part of your career calculations, I would venture that a clinical psychology degree is not in your best interests!

http://www.apa.org/workforce/publications/15-health-service-providers/index.aspx

I did not see money in that post. Did you mean this article:
http://www.apa.org/workforce/publications/15-cupa-hr/index.aspx

 

[MCParent]

If return on investment is a major part of your career calculations, I would venture that a clinical psychology degree is not in your best interests!



I did not see money in that post. Did you mean this article:
http://www.apa.org/workforce/publications/15-cupa-hr/index.aspx

D'oh, yup!

I'm totally happy with my investment and return. Funded program and academic position. I could have made more money in another field but not with anywhere near the freedom I have now.

 

[erg923]

D'oh, yup!

I'm totally happy with my investment and return. Funded program and academic position. I could have made more money in another field but not with anywhere near the freedom I have now.

Freedom=Quality of life.

I was "happiest" career-wise in small time academia. Didn't pay the bills at that time so moved on to VA. Is it worth it? Very personal decision. Great stability and insurance and pension to boot. Freedom? Not so much. Careful what you wish...

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Exactly.

Two R1 powerhouses...great for awhile, but def not gonna be a lifer.

 

[Fan_of_Meehl]

I also think--especially for the highly intellectual (but also humanistic/emotionally-attuned) folks who would even seriously consider a career in clinical psychology--that there is a salary point after which the additional benefits of 'mo' money' are going to be pretty negligible and the quality of life associated with your daily activities being fulfilling to you become paramount. As a VA psychologist I make a bit north of $100,000 per year doing work that I really enjoy and that fulfills me intellectually, is rarely 'boring' or repetitive, and is an endless opportunity for creativity. Could I have gone to med school and become, say, a urologist or dermatologist and made 3 to 5 times that in terms of yearly salary? Based on undergrad major, grades, interests, etc., almost certainly--if I'd applied myself to that goal. But spending 60 hrs./wk doing the work of a urologist or a dermatologist is something that I think I'd get burnt out on pretty quickly based on my understanding of that profession right now (in the age of managed care) and of my own interests, motivations, talents, and values. Over the years, my experience suggests to me that people tend to quickly increase their spending to match their income (pretty much whatever it is) and then quickly habituate to the lifestyle associated with that income. Of course it all depends on your family composition and total financial responsibilities in relation to your career/life goals, but for most people there's a 'sweet spot' that maximizes your career 'fit' with your interests/passions but also earns you enough money so that the basics of life (reliable transportation, food, health care, etc.) are quite well taken care of and you can focus on enjoying your work and life outside of work. The older I get the more satisfied that I am that I've found mine.

 

[Pragma]

I was "happiest" career-wise in small time academia.

I knew it!

That kind of career can translate to high earnings depending on where you are, if you move into administration, and what you do with the free time.

 

[smalltownpsych]

I also think--especially for the highly intellectual (but also humanistic/emotionally-attuned) folks who would even seriously consider a career in clinical psychology--that there is a salary point after which the additional benefits of 'mo' money' are going to be pretty negligible and the quality of life associated with your daily activities being fulfilling to you become paramount. As a VA psychologist I make a bit north of $100,000 per year doing work that I really enjoy and that fulfills me intellectually, is rarely 'boring' or repetitive, and is an endless opportunity for creativity. Could I have gone to med school and become, say, a urologist or dermatologist and made 3 to 5 times that in terms of yearly salary? Based on undergrad major, grades, interests, etc., almost certainly--if I'd applied myself to that goal. But spending 60 hrs./wk doing the work of a urologist or a dermatologist is something that I think I'd get burnt out on pretty quickly based on my understanding of that profession right now (in the age of managed care) and of my own interests, motivations, talents, and values. Over the years, my experience suggests to me that people tend to quickly increase their spending to match their income (pretty much whatever it is) and then quickly habituate to the lifestyle associated with that income. Of course it all depends on your family composition and total financial responsibilities in relation to your career/life goals, but for most people there's a 'sweet spot' that maximizes your career 'fit' with your interests/passions but also earns you enough money so that the basics of life (reliable transportation, food, health care, etc.) are quite well taken care of and you can focus on enjoying your work and life outside of work. The older I get the more satisfied that I am that I've found mine.

Completely agree. Nevertheless, I still think you should make mo' money and don't think you would turn down a few extra bucks either , but I'm always going to advocate for more for us just to counter the forces that would drive our salaries down. One of the things I really like about the VA system is that they continue to value psychologists and it shows up by compensating at above the average. A lot of mental health care delivery systems don't.

 

[Fan_of_Meehl]

Completely agree. Nevertheless, I still think you should make mo' money and don't think you would turn down a few extra bucks either , but I'm always going to advocate for more for us just to counter the forces that would drive our salaries down. One of the things I really like about the VA system is that they continue to value psychologists and it shows up by compensating at above the average. A lot of mental health care delivery systems don't.

Yup. And I think a pretty convincing logical/empirical argument can be made that we're 'under-compensated / valued' relative to the benefit (even in terms of measuring benefit in reference to gross 'symptom reduction' terms) we can provide to patients suffering from mental health conditions. Just look at the case of insomnia and the choice between pharmacologic 'treatment' of insomnia (with its attendant potential for discontinuation/rebound effects, long-term addictive risks (esp. with benzos), etc.) vs. something like CBT-I for insomnia and its well-demonstrated efficacy.

Of course, the astute critic could point out that you don't necessarily need a Ph.D. in clinical psychology to 'take someone through' a course of CBT-I if you have had the proper training in the protocol, but very few mental health cases present as 'just a fella suffering from insomnia, nothing else' and the expertise is in understanding all of the other factors involved and making reasonable guesses in terms of how to prioritize/stage treatment goals and match complex presentations to treatment options all-the-while maintaining an effective working therapeutic relationship and avoiding treatment 'drop-out.'

But I would hazard a guess that nearly all professions consider themselves 'under-compensated' relative to their 'value.'

 

[Pragma]

VA is a high floor but low ceiling for psychologist salaries.

 

[PsyDr]

Making money isn't hard. Nor is figuring out how to do it. Overhead is generally out here. So is the fee schedule for any service you can provide. Then it's just a matter of acting logically.

As many of my colleagues have said, the problem is finding balance. Brutally honest instrospection helps. Many choose to lie to themselves about who they are, and make decisions on who they would like to be rather than what would actually work for their happiness over a life time.

 

[singasongofjoy]

Brutally honest instrospection helps. Many choose to lie to themselves about who they are, and make decisions on who they would like to be rather than what would actually work for their happiness over a life time.

That's timely, given I'm facing forks in the road re: career paths over the next few years. Thanks for the food for thought!

 

[erg923]

I knew it!

That kind of career can translate to high earnings depending on where you are, if you move into administration, and what you do with the free time.

I think if that first position I had paid anywhere close to my VA position, I would go back in a heart beat. But its just not feasible given a variety of family circumstances and demands. My wife is in process of switching careers currently, so there may be so more flexibility down the road. As my salary starts to top out in the VA here soon, my side work will feel less supplemental and may demand a switch to some other area/setting. I am already a bit restless, but some of the more nontraditional jobs in VA are tough to get. I really cant stomach most the traditional leadership roles in the VA, at least at my VA. My service chief's jobs sounds just awful, really.

 

[Pragma]

I think if that first position I had paid anywhere close to my VA position, I would go back in a heart beat. But its just not feasible given a variety of family circumstances and demands. My wife is in process of switching careers currently, so there may be so more flexibility down the road. As my salary starts to top out in the VA here soon, my side work will feel less supplemental and may demand a switch to some other area/setting. I am already a bit restless, but some of the more nontraditional jobs in VA are tough to get. I really cant stomach most the traditional leadership roles in the VA, at least at my VA. My service chief's jobs sounds just awful, really.

They also don't pay THAT much more. You'd have to really like what you are doing. Otherwise, plenty of ways to reach GS15 level pay without losing your soul.

 

[psych.meout]

They also don't pay THAT much more. You'd have to really like what you are doing. Otherwise, plenty of ways to reach GS15 level pay without losing your soul.

Such as? Can you give some examples?

Does it depend on one's specialty, e.g. health psych vs. forensic vs. neuropsych?

 

[erg923]

Such as? Can you give some examples?

Does it depend on one's specialty, e.g. health psych vs. forensic vs. neuropsych?

I can think of a few. I think @smalltownpsych makes quite a bit more than me for example, although I don't know what his benefits are like.

But, I really don't want to do that anymore anyway (traditional clinical service), and in the spirit of @PSYDR post, I "know" myself. And I know that I really don't have the motivation to work all that much more than I do now (I already do some consulting work from home on the weekends). Or, at least put myself into such a productivity based compensation model given my current family values and priorities.

 

[Pragma]

Such as? Can you give some examples?

Does it depend on one's specialty, e.g. health psych vs. forensic vs. neuropsych?

I think it depends mostly on your networking and opportunities available, as well as core decisions about your primary job.

One example - consider the pros/cons of having a primarily clinical job. I chose not to do this because of noncompetes, potential burnout, and declining reimbursement. Working in a lower pressure (not R1) academic environment gives you a lot of flexibility, summers off, etc without a dramatic salary difference. You can make the salary difference up (and a lot more) with side work - could be clinical, consulting, entrapraneurship, etc. It would be harder to pursue lucrative side work without sufficient flexibility. If you work full time domewhere without flexibility, then you limit your side opportunities or force yourself to choose between your work and personal life more.

That's just one setup to get GS15 pay early in your career. There's many more depending on your business acumen (e.g. private practice), tolerance for certain activities (being in a more management/less clinical role, forensics, working in industry outside of clinical settings, etc.). Hey, flip houses on the weekend if you are good at it!

 

[psych.meout]

I can think of a few. I think @smalltownpsych makes quite a bit more than me for example, although I don't know what his benefits are like.

But, I really don't want to do that anymore anyway (traditional clinical service), and in the spirit of @PSYDR post, I "know" myself. And I know that I really don't have the motivation to work all that much more than I do now (I already do some consulting work from home on the weekends). Or, at least put myself into such a productivity based compensation model given my current family values and priorities.

I think it depends mostly on your networking and opportunities available, as well as core decisions about your primary job.

One example - consider the pros/cons of having a primarily clinical job. I chose not to do this because of noncompetes, potential burnout, and declining reimbursement. Working in a lower pressure (not R1) academic environment gives you a lot of flexibility, summers off, etc without a dramatic salary difference. You can make the salary difference up (and a lot more) with side work - could be clinical, consulting, entrapraneurship, etc. It would be harder to pursue lucrative side work without sufficient flexibility. If you work full time domewhere without flexibility, then you limit your side opportunities or force yourself to choose between your work and personal life more.

That's just one setup to get GS15 pay early in your career. There's many more depending on your business acumen (e.g. private practice), tolerance for certain activities (being in a more management/less clinical role, forensics, working in industry outside of clinical settings, etc.). Hey, flip houses on the weekend if you are good at it!

Can you speak more about the consulting opportunities available, especially as you each come from different specialty backgrounds, i.e. health psych vs. neuropsych?

 

[smalltownpsych]

I can think of a few. I think @smalltownpsych makes quite a bit more than me for example, although I don't know what his benefits are like.

But, I really don't want to do that anymore anyway (traditional clinical service), and in the spirit of @PSYDR post, I "know" myself. And I know that I really don't have the motivation to work all that much more than I do now (I already do some consulting work from home on the weekends). Or, at least put myself into such a productivity based compensation model given my current family values and priorities.

Yup, VA benefits are definitely better and workload is lighter and from my experience during a practicum it is an environment that supports psychology well. I do make substantially more than a VA psychologist, but it can be a grind as it is all clinical service. I am paying off debt and beginning to plan my next move in two years. Not sure what it will look like, but definitely don't wat to work for someone else anymore or be limited to and limited by the clinical service grind.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

High floor/Low ceiling was the perfect description for VA salaries. GS-13 (typical salary level for a clinical position for a fellowship trained clinician) caps around $110k/yr, depending on cost of living adjustment. That's not bad for early career work, but it becomes far less attractive as you progress.

I think the best VA setup is if a person can find a cushy spot productivity-wise and have a small PP on the side. There is more of a salary upside at an AMC, particularly if you can get some grant funding, but it's a lot more work.

There are GS-14/15 positions in the VA (and as a civilian working in the military) that are a good fit for a psychologist, but they are mostly/all administrative and a very different day-to-day experience.

We are pretty limited with earning as employees in clinical positions due to the limited reimbursement rates we earn. Significant gains in income can happen in PP bc you are the owner. Cash pay helps, but it eventually is limited too.

 

[Pragma]

Can you speak more about the consulting opportunities available, especially as you each come from different specialty backgrounds, i.e. health psych vs. neuropsych?

Research consultation, statistical consultation, clinical review for insurance or forensic purposes, organizational consultation or trainings, teaching, running CEU workshops...just a few off the top of my head. That doesn't even get into something you might be able to profit from outside of the field using your skillset.

There are some areas that are probably heavier in certain specialties (neuro and forensics). But a lot of it will come based on who you know, having your name out there (in a good way), and networking. Mentors and supervisors can help some.

 

[PsyDr]

Can you speak more about the consulting opportunities available, especially as you each come from different specialty backgrounds, i.e. health psych vs. neuropsych?

Consulting is highly dependent on your skills and who you know. If you stick with traditional healthcare, it's pretty standard.

If you reason it out, you figure out what industries have a ton of money, and what services you could provide which would result in objective and measureably improved outcomes, and doesn't have a history of using psychologists. More unusual: architectural, financial, aviation, phamra, city planning, television, software design, wine, marketing, etc. In those fields I know psychologists trained in forensics, psychoanalysis, and neuropsych. One is in cognitive psych and is not a licensed psychologist.

What no one is going to tell you is where and how to find these jobs. Most in these very niche areas are highly territorial and do not want competition. Or they have experience with idiots coming in and giving nonactionable talking points and making the entire field look bad.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

What no one is going to tell you is where and how to find these jobs. Most in these very niche areas are highly territorial and do not want competition. Or they have experience with idiots coming in and giving nonactionable talking points and making the entire field look bad.

This.

The best consulting jobs are created, not advertised. Typically you develop a niche and (hopefully) become the big fish in a small pond.

 

[WisNeuro]

Don't be the fish. Be the shark. Or whatever other cliche works best here

 

[deleted760483]

If you are a pretty driven person, try to find a job that offers some level of performance-dependent compensation. My base pay is just slightly above the median for clinical psychologists, but I get a bonus based on how much I exceed a productivity threshold based on Work RVUs (basically billing codes....). For many of my colleagues this bonus is a few thousand dollars a year. For me, who likes to be busy and has started multiple outpatient group patients, my bonus is around 50% of my base salary.