Earning Potential For Assessment Focused Practitioners?

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Yeah, but you can bill 90791 in place of 96116, depending on your documentation and which side you are credentialed on, and then use the 96136/7 and 96132/3 codes.
Right, not sure how obvious that is to everyone though. I do it that way whenever possible for obvious reasons but also know people who never have thought to. The documentation guidance from APA does not make that clear.
 
I know a psychologist who focuses on this population. Had the opportunity to occasionally pick up an assessment case or two from the practice. While there isn't a ton of referrals, these private schools cost $20-40K a year (high school). I was amazed one time a parent showed up with an envelope of cash to "just pay in full from the start" for , I think a $5,500 evaluation. And that wasn't even the most expensive option.

But you have to have tough skin while also having a keen ability to read the room and present your findings in a way that are accurate but also "agreeable." The nuances in wording and presenting results is something you notice real quickly with this population if you chose the "wrong" way to phrase it. Same with if there's a waiting list or any kind of delay. Many of these parents are CEOs, business owners, other top level "corporate types." Some tend to treat the psychologist like another person on their payroll. Sadly there's also a "fix this problem" mentality too; sometimes you discover a big factor in the poor kid or teen's presenting problem is the "throw money at the problem parenting."
In my city, I can see this being a big possibility. But what exactly are they assessing for in Private Schools?
 
Right, not sure how obvious that is to everyone though. I do it that way whenever possible for obvious reasons but also know people who never have thought to. The documentation guidance from APA does not make that clear.

I agree, most people are terrible about knowing codes and documentation necessities for different codes. That's pretty standard across healthcare as well. My spouse was also notoriously undercoding at her old job.
 
In my city, I can see this being a big possibility. But what exactly are they assessing for in Private Schools?

Wealthy parents that are willing to buy a diagnosis to fit whatever need they have.
 
In my city, I can see this being a big possibility. But what exactly are they assessing for in Private Schools?

If you're a complete jerk, live in a wealthy area, and are only "kinda" wealthy: You hire a psychologist to find a diagnosis, and write a report that the "least restrictive environment" is a (insert whatever you want here).

I've literally seen well known neuropsychologists write reports stating that the kid has a disorder of written expression, and the least restrictive environment is a boarding school in Switzerland.

$5-10k for a report is cheaper than $40-90k/yr in tuition and fees for 12 years.
 
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Bottom line, if you have no scruples, you can make a lot of money in assessment while being incompetent. But, if you are competent, you can still make a lot of money without having to sell your self-respect or professional integrity.
 
In my city, I can see this being a big possibility. But what exactly are they assessing for in Private Schools?

So, I think you got the negative side of that coin from the other responses. I trained in doing this work. The more scrupulous way of doing it is providing a proper assessment and making recommendations to wealthy parents who have the means to acquire the actual best learning environment for their child. Money fixes a lot of problems. For example, you find a kid has a disorder of written expression and are familiar enough with the private schools in the area to know which one has the best resources to help their kid then some parents are happy to pay for the info and the guidance to try and get their kid in there.
 
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Nice, well thank you all for the info.
Hope others who are interested in assessment get as much out of this thread as I have
 
I've seen a few BS autism reports from psychologists that charge 3k+ for those and are booked months in advance FYI
 
If one wanted to focus on assessments career-wise would it be advisable to go for a clinical psychology PhD? Are there better options?
 
The kinds mentioned in this thread that seem to make the most money - trauma/PTSD for forensics/WC, and/or autism/ADHD etc. for private school kids.
 
Probably the PhD path. You really need to have a very good foundation in evaluating and talking about research, psychometrics, and statistics. Much more likely to get that solid foundation in a clinical PhD in terms of the assessments we do. However, those of us in the field also appreciate the providers out there who are clueless about research and psychometrics. Makes us look very good at times going against those types of "experts."
 
Hello, reviving this again to address a question that was hit on very briefly:
Where exactly is the line drawn on what a psych vs a neuropsych can do? ....And what's the difference in earning potential once again.
Just kinda finding clarification. I'm fairly certain I don't want to specialize in neuropsych though.

Was at a didactic for training, asked the question, and got helpful, but wishy-washy responses.

What types of evaluations can your 'general practitioner Psychologists' (psych) do vs your 'board-certified Neuropsychologist (neuro)?'

From what I understand, the answer comes down to this: Legally, a psych and neuro can do the same tests/batteries/evaluations(assessments), but technically (and ethically) a psych shouldn't do neuro-specific assessments.

What I understand (cont):

Psychs get licensed and are allowed to perform psych-related duties including assessments. These are usually...general? In the sense that specialized training isn't needed outside of the requirements from the licensing board (Autism, Personality, giftedness, LD, ADHD [Maybe?], etc).

Neuros go through board certification to call themselves neuropsychologists. This showcases that they had the proper training and experience to conduct these tests. This is especially helpful in forensic cases when appearing as an expert witness and while working in hospital systems to ensure optimal patient care. Neuros can do more specialized assessments for neurological-related conditions (Epilepsy, pre/post-op batteries, TBI, Dementia, Alzheimer, etc, etc?)

Now technically speaking, Psychs can still perform Neuro assessments without being board-certified right? They would be under the category of "Psychologists that do Neuro Testing" without calling themselves a neuropsychologist.... This seems risky. If you were for some reason to end up in a forensic case testifying as an expert witness for something neuro-related, wouldn't your whole testimony get thrown away if they identify you as doing Neuro testing without being board-certified? Also, this seems like an easy way to get the licensing board's attention if you really mess up a report.

And this makes answering the main question hard, as there seems to be a lot of argument about a psych's and neuro's scope of practice. But nonetheless, what tests/cases belong in neuro bucket?
 
Hello, reviving this again to address a question that was hit on very briefly:


Was at a didactic for training, asked the question, and got helpful, but wishy-washy responses.

What types of evaluations can your 'general practitioner Psychologists' (psych) do vs your 'board-certified Neuropsychologist (neuro)?'

From what I understand, the answer comes down to this: Legally, a psych and neuro can do the same tests/batteries/evaluations(assessments), but technically (and ethically) a psych shouldn't do neuro-specific assessments.

What I understand (cont):

Psychs get licensed and are allowed to perform psych-related duties including assessments. These are usually...general? In the sense that specialized training isn't needed outside of the requirements from the licensing board (Autism, Personality, giftedness, LD, ADHD [Maybe?], etc).

Neuros go through board certification to call themselves neuropsychologists. This showcases that they had the proper training and experience to conduct these tests. This is especially helpful in forensic cases when appearing as an expert witness and while working in hospital systems to ensure optimal patient care. Neuros can do more specialized assessments for neurological-related conditions (Epilepsy, pre/post-op batteries, TBI, Dementia, Alzheimer, etc, etc?)

Now technically speaking, Psychs can still perform Neuro assessments without being board-certified right? They would be under the category of "Psychologists that do Neuro Testing" without calling themselves a neuropsychologist.... This seems risky. If you were for some reason to end up in a forensic case testifying as an expert witness for something neuro-related, wouldn't your whole testimony get thrown away if they identify you as doing Neuro testing without being board-certified? Also, this seems like an easy way to get the licensing board's attention if you really mess up a report.

And this makes answering the main question hard, as there seems to be a lot of argument about a psych's and neuro's scope of practice. But nonetheless, what tests/cases belong in neuro bucket?
The issue isn't really a matter of what tests are being used, but what you're attempting to use the tests for. There are few, if any, tests that are truly restricted to someone with neuropsych training. State licensing boards are usually even more vague in this regard RE: scope of practice. Basically, in most instances, it's up to the psychologist to decide what they're competent to do and what they're not. Although there may be situations in which a psychologist is credentialed by their employer in terms of what they can do, and/or by an insurance company to be able to bill for certain services and CPT codes.

Ultimately, it usually boils down to the referral question. A psychologist who is adequately trained in assessment could answer a question such as, "does this person have depression, anxiety, PTSD, or all of the above?" A psychologist with adequate training can also perform psychoeducational assessments for conditions such as learning disorders (relatively testing heavy), assessments for ADHD (much lighter on the testing), etc. The key isn't whether or not you're a psychologist/neuropsychologist, but whether you actually have training and experience in assessing for these conditions. For example, I'd feel comfortable performing an assessment for ADHD. If I had the materials, I could also assess for learning disability, but I'd want to brush up on some things first. I wouldn't immediately feel comfortable assessing for autism in adults. I could probably screen for eating disorders, but wouldn't want to get into the nitty gritty of treatment-focused assessment there. I haven't seen any children since grad school, so I wouldn't want to see anyone younger than 18 for pretty much any reason. Etc.

Neuropsychologists are usually going to answer some version of a question relating to cognition and/or underlying brain-related issues. "Does this person have a neurocognitive disorder (Alzheimer's disease/Parkinson's disease dementia/vascular cognitive impairment/etc.), and if so, what kind and severity?" Or, "this person had a TBI, how significantly and in what ways has it affected their cognition, if at all?" Neuropsychologists will usually also be asked to provide treatment recommendations, and some neuropsychologists will have training in providing cognitive rehabilitation. There's often a good deal of overlap with more general psych assessment. "Are these person's cognitive complaints due to depression, dementia, or both?"

"Neuropsychologist" is, by and large, not a protected term (there are a few exceptions, such as Louisiana, that do protect it). Any psychologist can say they perform neuropsychological assessments. It can be risky, yes. If there's a board complaint by a patient or other provider, the psychologist would probably need to justify to the board how/why they're trained to do what they're doing. It's rare to unknowingly end up as an expert witness in a forensic case, and if that happens, you and/or the attorney have probably done something wrong. But if a psychologist without formal neuropsych training elected to take a forensic case in which they'd be serving as a neuropsychologist, then yes, that could open their eval and testimony up to impeachment. It could also mean that even if the court accepts them as an expert, their testimony is going to be horrible.

As for board certification, it's probably the most straightforward way to establish your expertise with the courts (and with patients, a licensing board, etc.), but it's not necessary, and not being boarded certainly wouldn't automatically lead to a psychologist's testimony being thrown out. Plenty of appropriately-trained neuropsychologists perform forensic work and are not boarded. It's becoming more common to be boarded, but it's still not universal. Early on, the psychologist may just have to provide some additional information about their education and training, either with retaining attorneys, the court, or both.

Psychology, and neuropsychology, are bodies of knowledge, not groups of tests. And relatedly, psychologists/neuropsychologists may feel comfortable answering some types of questions in some settings, but not others. For example, a psychologist may feel quite comfortable assessing for mood disorders, but wouldn't initially feel comfortable assessing for mood disorders in the context of a pre-surgical organ transplant evaluation.
 
The issue isn't really a matter of what tests are being used, but what you're attempting to use the tests for. There are few, if any, tests that are truly restricted to someone with neuropsych training. State licensing boards are usually even more vague in this regard RE: scope of practice. Basically, in most instances, it's up to the psychologist to decide what they're competent to do and what they're not. Although there may be situations in which a psychologist is credentialed by their employer in terms of what they can do, and/or by an insurance company to be able to bill for certain services and CPT codes.

Ultimately, it usually boils down to the referral question. A psychologist who is adequately trained in assessment could answer a question such as, "does this person have depression, anxiety, PTSD, or all of the above?" A psychologist with adequate training can also perform psychoeducational assessments for conditions such as learning disorders (relatively testing heavy), assessments for ADHD (much lighter on the testing), etc. The key isn't whether or not you're a psychologist/neuropsychologist, but whether you actually have training and experience in assessing for these conditions. For example, I'd feel comfortable performing an assessment for ADHD. If I had the materials, I could also assess for learning disability, but I'd want to brush up on some things first. I wouldn't immediately feel comfortable assessing for autism in adults. I could probably screen for eating disorders, but wouldn't want to get into the nitty gritty of treatment-focused assessment there. I haven't seen any children since grad school, so I wouldn't want to see anyone younger than 18 for pretty much any reason. Etc.

Neuropsychologists are usually going to answer some version of a question relating to cognition and/or underlying brain-related issues. "Does this person have a neurocognitive disorder (Alzheimer's disease/Parkinson's disease dementia/vascular cognitive impairment/etc.), and if so, what kind and severity?" Or, "this person had a TBI, how significantly and in what ways has it affected their cognition, if at all?" Neuropsychologists will usually also be asked to provide treatment recommendations, and some neuropsychologists will have training in providing cognitive rehabilitation. There's often a good deal of overlap with more general psych assessment. "Are these person's cognitive complaints due to depression, dementia, or both?"

"Neuropsychologist" is, by and large, not a protected term (there are a few exceptions, such as Louisiana, that do protect it). Any psychologist can say they perform neuropsychological assessments. It can be risky, yes. If there's a board complaint by a patient or other provider, the psychologist would probably need to justify to the board how/why they're trained to do what they're doing. It's rare to unknowingly end up as an expert witness in a forensic case, and if that happens, you and/or the attorney have probably done something wrong. But if a psychologist without formal neuropsych training elected to take a forensic case in which they'd be serving as a neuropsychologist, then yes, that could open their eval and testimony up to impeachment. It could also mean that even if the court accepts them as an expert, their testimony is going to be horrible.

As for board certification, it's probably the most straightforward way to establish your expertise with the courts (and with patients, a licensing board, etc.), but it's not necessary, and not being boarded certainly wouldn't automatically lead to a psychologist's testimony being thrown out. Plenty of appropriately-trained neuropsychologists perform forensic work and are not boarded. It's becoming more common to be boarded, but it's still not universal. Early on, the psychologist may just have to provide some additional information about their education and training, either with retaining attorneys, the court, or both.

Psychology, and neuropsychology, are bodies of knowledge, not groups of tests. And relatedly, psychologists/neuropsychologists may feel comfortable answering some types of questions in some settings, but not others. For example, a psychologist may feel quite comfortable assessing for mood disorders, but wouldn't initially feel comfortable assessing for mood disorders in the context of a pre-surgical organ transplant evaluation.
I do what I call neurodevelopmental (adhd, sld, autism, intellectual disability, etc. ) evaluations all the time and I refer to pediatric neuropsychologists frequently.

Generally, I'll refer when there is:
  • a confirmed brain disorder (e.g., epilepsy, CP, TBI), a risk for brain damage (e.g., certain metabolic/endocrine disorders) and the kiddo has me confused
  • suspected dysfunction due to changes in mental functioning (e.g., I think there has been a regression in certain skills
  • the tests I have won't be sensitive enough to detect this)
  • memory concerns (i don't really have memory testing tools at my current work)

The above kind of emphasizes this line of thought: is this a question of organic vs psychiatric/psychological changes in mental status? In the above, to get insurance to pay for the neuropsych eval, it must inform treatment by having an accurate diagnosis, providing anticipatory guidance, etc.

But, I know a ton of psychologists in the community who do "neuropsychological testing/evaluations" but are not neuropsychologists. They're not bad, either.
 
The issue isn't really a matter of what tests are being used, but what you're attempting to use the tests for. There........
Thanks for the very comprehensive answer.

So it's less a problem of "This should be under this jurisdiction" but more of the old question of "Do you have enough training to perform this task."
 
Thanks for the very comprehensive answer.

So it's less a problem of "This should be under this jurisdiction" but more of the old question of "Do you have enough training to perform this task."
That question, the am I practicing within the boundaries of my professional competencies?, is one of the most noble aspects of our field.
 
Thanks for the very comprehensive answer.

So it's less a problem of "This should be under this jurisdiction" but more of the old question of "Do you have enough training to perform this task."
Indeed. Or maybe from a liability (and mental exercise) perspective, would most other people trained in this area agree that I'm competent to do what I'm doing.
 
Thanks for the very comprehensive answer.

So it's less a problem of "This should be under this jurisdiction" but more of the old question of "Do you have enough training to perform this task."

Think of it this way. From a licensing perspective, we are all psychologists. A board-certified neuropsych is shorthand for I am well trained in cognitive assessment and brain-behavior relationships, but there is no separate license. I am not a neuropsych, but I have done many dementia assessments. The difference boils down to referral question. I can certainly answer "Does this patient have cognitive impairment/dementia" quite easily and even "Can this person live alone independently". Though I have a lot of training in neuropsych, I would refer out "Is this Alz vs Vascular dementia vs multi-factorial Cognitive decline" as a referral question. This is why clarifying the referral is so important.

This is similar to whether a PCP manages a patient with a heart problem vs refers to a Cardiologist. This will also reflect the training and comfort fo the PCPs. I know NPs that refer everything out and PCPs that have extensive cardiology training that may refer out only the most complicated questions. What do you want to manage clinically?
 
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The issue isn't really a matter of what tests are being used, but what you're attempting to use the tests for.
IIRC, in the first or second edition of the Handbook of Rehabilitation Psychology, Bigler had an introduction about this. He conceptualized the use of neuropsychological testing into different levels. IIRC, his levels were something like:

1) Using neuropsychological testing to describe the overall functioning of an individual
2) Using neuropsychological testing to describe the functioning of specific neuroanatomical regions
3) Correlating the neuropsychological pattern of perform (ala Wolfson), with neuropathologies.

I always liked that.
 
IIRC, in the first or second edition of the Handbook of Rehabilitation Psychology, Bigler had an introduction about this. He conceptualized the use of neuropsychological testing into different levels. IIRC, his levels were something like:

1) Using neuropsychological testing to describe the overall functioning of an individual
2) Using neuropsychological testing to describe the functioning of specific neuroanatomical regions
3) Correlating the neuropsychological pattern of perform (ala Wolfson), with neuropathologies.

I always liked that.
I need to read this guy. Any continuing ed?
 
I need to read this guy. Any continuing ed?
I would NOT recommend anything else by him. He is/was the leader of the "you can bump your head on a shelf, and get severe cognitive impairment" and "PVTs do not work" in the ~2013 debates with either Rohling or Larrabee. Those opinions were disproven in large data sets. You can take a guess about his forensic work.

But he is very talented in neuroimaging.
 
I need to read this guy. Any continuing ed?
PsyDr beat me to it. If it's the book I'm thinking of, it's by Prigatano and came out maybe a couple decades ago. I have a copy lying around somewhere and could double-check if the intro is indeed by Bigler.
 
I would NOT recommend anything else by him. He is/was the leader of the "you can bump your head on a shelf, and get severe cognitive impairment" and "PVTs do not work" in the ~2013 debates with either Rohling or Larrabee. Those opinions were disproven in large data sets. You can take a guess about his forensic work.

But he is very talented in neuroimaging.

Ah, Erin "TOMM scores in the low 30's are still valid" Bigler. What an....interesting dude.
 
I would NOT recommend anything else by him. He is/was the leader of the "you can bump your head on a shelf, and get severe cognitive impairment" and "PVTs do not work" in the ~2013 debates with either Rohling or Larrabee. Those opinions were disproven in large data sets. You can take a guess about his forensic work.

But he is very talented in neuroimaging.

Are we talking untreated subdural hematomas in the elderly or is Bigler saying mild physical trauma can cause severe cog impairment?
 
Are we talking untreated subdural hematomas in the elderly or is Bigler saying mild physical trauma can cause severe cog impairment?

The latter, even without any objective clinical sign that an injury even occurred in the first place.
 
Curious to know what Bigler's perspectives on functional disorders would be.
 
What is a PVT?

Also, I am looking at increasing my competencies in rehab psych more. I guess that's the call.
 
Depends on the context and population that you are using it in. Admittedly, I don't have as much knowledge in PVT/SVTs in peds populations
I wish there was a fake index or pvt for autism or parents who really seem motivated for an autism dx.
 
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