VA Graduate Psychologist - what's it like?

[oldschooliscool]

I've never worked in the VA before, but I'm reaching the point where I'm 6 months away from finishing my internship and I'm trying to figure out what to do next. I'm wanting to start my own clinical practice as soon as possible, but I know that I need post-doctoral experience to be able to get a license in many states.

I'm seeing some VA jobs that I'm quite qualified for (perfectly in line with my specialty area), and a lot of them allow you to join right after internship as a "graduate psychologist." Does anyone know what this is like? Specifically, I'm wondering:

1) What's the workload like? Do they work graduate psychologists harder, or does it just depend on the specific VA?
2) Do these positions give you the necessary supervision / other pieces that would allow you to get licensed in most states? I don't want to risk sabotaging myself by doing this instead of a more formal post-doc.
3) If I'm wanting to get licensed as soon as possible and start my own private practice, is there any reason why a VA graduate psychologist would be better or worse than a more traditional post-doc?

Any advice or input would be greatly appreciated!

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[Therapist4Chnge]

There have been a number of threads over the years about VA employment, so a search should turn up a number of useful threads that talk about positions and also associated pay scales (GS-11 v GS-12, v GS-13). It’s also worth noting that jobs in the VA can vary a lot by setting: AMC-affiliated, stand-alone hospital, CBOC (community-based out-pt center), etc. Day to day work can also vary by VISN (grouping of VA hospitals in an area).

IMHO, VA employment is a solid opportunity for early career psychologists. As for formal post-doc v job, that is another wrinkle that I think depends largely on what kind of work you want to do long-term. I personally will always recommend a formal post-doc for anyone if they have the opportunity, but it really is an individual choice depending on what area(s) you want to practice.

 

[summerbabe]

1) What's the workload like? Do they work graduate psychologists harder, or does it just depend on the specific VA?

Yes, you can start immediately upon finishing internship and having your degree conferred and getting onboarded.

Your workload will be exactly the same as a full staff psychologist in that clinic, minus 1-2 admin hours devoted to supervision.

For general mental health, you'll be looking around 25.5 to 28.5 bookable hours per week with some variation by site. Speciality clinics may be a few less due to extra team meetings or things like a journal club slot.

Residential, substance abuse and other 'atypical' settings will really vary.

2) Do these positions give you the necessary supervision / other pieces that would allow you to get licensed in most states? I don't want to risk sabotaging myself by doing this instead of a more formal post-doc.

They should. The VA is pretty up and up on stuff like this. Plus, you can't independently sign notes as a graduate psychologist so somebody will be responsible for cosigning your notes.

You'll also receive supervision. If there are multiple grad psychologists, they may do it via group. Or it will be 1 on 1. I was never a grad psychologist but from what I have heard, some places treat it like 'real' supervision and use the full hour, other supervisors will want to rubber stamp you and move on with their day. Whatever the approach, it could be enough for future licensing.

VA has standards for grad psychologist supervision but make sure to look at what your future jurisdiction where you want to be licensed and see what they will want since that's your responsibility.

Also, a VA psychologist can hold a license from any state so if you want to get licensed in a place like CA which has very strict requirements on who can provide approved supervision, double check that stuff to make sure your supervisor passes muster with where you want to be licensed (versus them being allowed by VA to supervise, which does not have to correspond with licensing board preferences).

3) If I'm wanting to get licensed as soon as possible and start my own private practice, is there any reason why a VA graduate psychologist would be better or worse than a more traditional post-doc?

Supervisors will be largely competent and the VA tries to provide support for things like EBPs. The work can be very rewarding and some patients are very grateful.

But access to timely care and getting patients seen is the big political priority right now which can impact patient care like scheduling people on your caseload who would benefit from a full 12-14 weekly apt episode of care. Interns and postdocs are still largely shielded from this but you won't as a grad psychologist.

A downside is that you'll likely spend some of your time on things that you won't encounter in private practice (veterans who think they need to attend MH apts to get or maintain VA disability) & VA bureaucracy. You also won't be learning anything about the business side of psychology nor are you likely to receive any mentoring about that.

Overall, the VA is pretty desperate to hire now so the odds may be good. However, if there is a qualified licensed psychologist competing against you, they may get the job since it takes somebody else time to sign your notes and provide supervision and resources are stretched thing in many places unfortunately. But definitely apply for things that feel like good fits

Lastly, the VA is a very specific system with very specific ways of doing things and a unique patient population.

If you're pretty flexible, it can be a good and rewarding experience. I did internship and postdoc in VA and am now on my 4th year as staff.

If you need a lot of autonomy or naturally rebel against hierarchy versus take acceptance based approaches (e.g., when told to do something a specific way even if there is a clearly better way to do it), you may find the experience very challenging and stressful. Good luck!

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I'd second everything said above, particularly summerbabe's very informative post. I'd re-iterate what was said about ensuring that whatever supervision VA provides aligns with whatever state(s) you want to get licensed in. VA will have an idea of how much and what type of supervision it needs to provide; that may or may not meet any individual state's requirements, and you may or may not be able to negotiate additional supervision opportunities.

The main advantage to a VA position vs. a formal/traditional postdoc will be that you're paid more. It's also an actual (pretty stable) job, so there's no need to leave after a year. And you'd have access to full employee benefits, including starting to get vested in the pension and 401k-equivalent. You'll get a modicum of exposure to billing, at least in terms of using CPT codes. And you'll become very well-acquainted with HIPAA and information security guidelines. You'll also get BLS training for free and access to TMS (i.e., employee education system with hundreds if not thousands of hours of free CEs), and as was mentioned above, access to formalized training and certification in various EBPs if you want to go that route.

On the flip side, a formal postdoc will probably have lower clinical responsibilities (and pay) in exchange for participation in other formal training opportunities like didactics. You may also have the chance to move around a bit and get training in different areas. The supervision will probably be more structured and you'll probably receive more of it, and they're going to be more likely to be willing to adjust that supervision to meet state guidelines as needed/requested. It may also be easier to track down someone in the future to fill out a training/supervision verification form for licensure in other states; for a VA graduate psychologist position, you'd probably have to rely on either the then-current supervisor or HR to know how to fill out the form and be able to vouch for however many supervision and practice hours you had.

All in all, the VA graduate psychologist positions aren't a bad deal at all. And VA is great in terms of non-competes (i.e., there are none). But if you plan to get licensed in additional states in the future, I might consider having a form-type letter identifying your duties, practice hours/schedule, and supervision hours that you get signed by the psychologist supervising you (and possible the area supervisor/manager). It may not be able to take the place of a state-specific form, but at least you'd have it, just in case.

 

[PsyDuck90]

I’m a former VA intern and current VA postdoc, with some colleagues who took GS-11 positions. What everyone else has said basically sums it up from what I’ve heard from colleagues and my TD last year when discussing GS-11 positions. The main things I want to add is that they are required to provide supervision that meets the licensing requirements of the state you are located in, and that’s it. So just be aware of what the licensing requirements are like for that state compared to others you may want to be licensed in. Also, while the VA is on a hiring spree, the process is by no means quick. Even my colleagues who got job offers in October of our internship year didn’t actually start their positions until about 4-5 months after finishing their internships and conferring their degrees. The HR wheels move VERY slowly in VA hiring, so I would prepare for a potential few months without an income.

 

[texanpsychdoc]

So...I have some thoughts on this, seeing how I did my training at the VA and started my career with the VA before going into private practice.

I think the VA is excellent as far as an organization for training future psychologists. I really value what I learned on internship at the VA. I was a neuro person for all of my training, even in my neuro track internship program, but about half way through it, I petitioned my training committee to allow me to switch to a generalist track where I got a tone of other experiences, especially in the context of SUD, trauma, chronic pain, inpatient and residential care. Being in the VA as an intern really set me up for success as I started to contemplate post-doc vs. GS-11.

I had applied to and interviewed at (and received offers) from several post-doc programs in neuro and rehab psych. Alas, based on family needs, my just being so over jumping through more hoops and moving, I decided to go the GS-11 route over a post-doc. I also knew I wanted to be licensed in Ohio, Texas, and Florida and two of those states required post-doc hours (Ohio did not). I ended up getting a GS-11 position in Ohio where my supervisor and I worked out a plan where I would do 2 hours of supervision a week for the full year to be documented (1 hour of individual and 1 hour of group with other unlicensed psychologists they hired with me).

I actually got licensed 4 months after I completed internship, and was already a few months in my job at that point, so, regardless I was licensed but still receiving supervision. This informal post-doc I was doing also enabled me to go for board certification which is what I always wanted (I'm currently an ABPP candidate and half way done with the process). Once I got my hours completed, I went to ASPPB and created an account where it send a standardized form to your supervisor to document the post-doc hours you completed. Now, I have it on record that I was supervised at the post-doc level and I can take that anywhere I go to get licensed should that state require post-doc hours.

Lastly...at least for me, the VA is a **** show as far as working there as a psychologist. I could only tolerate doing it across 3 VAs. I worked at the 3rd largest VA in my last position, and also held a faculty position at a med school. It was nice experience for the most part, but the things I value and desired, I was not getting with the VA. I was unwilling to continue to sacrifice my values and passions for a paycheck and some fancy titles.

 

[CanisRufus]

I think everyone has already given really good information.

I am currently in my first year as a graduate psychologist (finished internship this past June) and it feels like some pieces may depend on the VA that you work at. The VA I am at actually moved pretty "quickly" with the hiring and onboarding process (I started two months after I finished internship and two weeks after my degree conferral date) but it can certainly take longer, so being prepared for a potential 2-4 month delay in income is definitely something to consider when making this decision.

As far as workload, it doesn't seem like graduate psychologists at the medical center I am at work any harder or are scheduled any differently than staff psychologists. I'm in PCMHI, so my bookability and metrics look a lot different than more standard clinics and likely would not be that helpful for you, but I don't feel at all overwhelmed. You are less protected from the VA bureaucracy than an intern or formal postdoc would be, so it really depends on if you feel comfortable with doing things in that way. I'm at a rural VA in my home state that is honestly pretty relaxed compared to other VAs that I had training experiences in, so that might depend on which VA you are at, but there's always some similarities across VAs with structure and expectations.

One thing that I felt was very important is discussing formal supervision before accepting the tentative offer. I wanted to be sure that I would be eligible for licensure in not just my state but most other states and was able to work that out to have very structured supervision and other didactic experiences. Again, this might vary by site, but I have felt supported in completing the steps for licensure and am now just "waiting out the clock" on the rest of my supervised postdoctoral hours.

Overall, I feel it has been a good experience and I am happy with my decision since I want to stay in PCMHI/integrated behavioral health settings. But, I think it largely depends on the area you want to go into and whether a formal postdoc would provide you more benefits in the long-term.

 

[Grenth]

The trend at my VA is moving towards graduate psychologists and away from fellowships/formal postdocs. We can't seem to get or keep postdocs except in neuro because they're taking jobs after accepting or in the middle of fellowship. I think outside of dedicated board areas that either require or preference a formal postdoc (neuro, rehab, etc.) there is little need for a formal postdoc unless you want one for your own training goals.

I have yet to hear of a state that has put up resistance to licensing a VA graduate psychologist. At my VA (obligatory seen one VA...) you get 2hrs of dedicated supervision a week which is on par with fellowships and you have access to 2hrs of CE eligible didactics as well so it really felt like postdoc was just getting paid less for slightly fewer clinical obligations and protected EPPP study time. I've known straight from internship grad psychologists who have obtained licensure in NY, CA, CO, WA, ME, TX, and OR among other states so perhaps there are states with much more stringent requirements for a "formal" postdoc but they don't seem common.

There are some benefits beyond pay too like getting matching contributions to your TSP started, a year closer to retirement eligibility, and grad psychologists are eligible for paid parental leave right away if you did a VA internship and transition straight to the GS-11 position.

TLDR if your career goal does not require a formal postdoc for boarding and your state doesn't explicitly require a formal postdoc (versus supervised hours/didactics) then a graduate psych position can be a great option.

 

[Unsalted Coast]

I think everyone has already given really good information.

I am currently in my first year as a graduate psychologist (finished internship this past June) and it feels like some pieces may depend on the VA that you work at. The VA I am at actually moved pretty "quickly" with the hiring and onboarding process (I started two months after I finished internship and two weeks after my degree conferral date) but it can certainly take longer, so being prepared for a potential 2-4 month delay in income is definitely something to consider when making this decision.

As far as workload, it doesn't seem like graduate psychologists at the medical center I am at work any harder or are scheduled any differently than staff psychologists. I'm in PCMHI, so my bookability and metrics look a lot different than more standard clinics and likely would not be that helpful for you, but I don't feel at all overwhelmed. You are less protected from the VA bureaucracy than an intern or formal postdoc would be, so it really depends on if you feel comfortable with doing things in that way. I'm at a rural VA in my home state that is honestly pretty relaxed compared to other VAs that I had training experiences in, so that might depend on which VA you are at, but there's always some similarities across VAs with structure and expectations.

One thing that I felt was very important is discussing formal supervision before accepting the tentative offer. I wanted to be sure that I would be eligible for licensure in not just my state but most other states and was able to work that out to have very structured supervision and other didactic experiences. Again, this might vary by site, but I have felt supported in completing the steps for licensure and am now just "waiting out the clock" on the rest of my supervised postdoctoral hours.

Overall, I feel it has been a good experience and I am happy with my decision since I want to stay in PCMHI/integrated behavioral health settings. But, I think it largely depends on the area you want to go into and whether a formal postdoc would provide you more benefits in the long-term.

Thank you! This is helpful information. My local VA clinic has a VA position that can be filled by either a licensed or graduate psychologist. How did you go about ensuring that someone was available to provide supervision? My local clinic is small and I am unsure whether the open position is the only provider or if there may be others. Also, do graduate psychologists qualify for all the benefits such as education reimbursement?

 

[summerbabe]

Thank you! This is helpful information. My local VA clinic has a VA position that can be filled by either a licensed or graduate psychologist. How did you go about ensuring that someone was available to provide supervision? My local clinic is small and I am unsure whether the open position is the only provider or if there may be others. Also, do graduate psychologists qualify for all the benefits such as education reimbursement?

If the position is open to grad psychologists, the facility will arrange for a supervisory psychologist if an unlicensed psychologist is hired.

Of course, you'll need to ask questions & make sure you have your future licensure ducks in a row. And ask for what you think you'll need for licensure, ideally after the tentative offer is officially made and before you sign the formal offer (think of it as a negotiation).

As far as I know, grad psychologists (since they are full time staff) are eligible for EDRP and relocation bonuses. You can ask the hiring manager during or after the interview or email the HR contact if this is a public USAJobs posting (see the bottom of the listing) to confirm. Good luck!

 

[oldschooliscool]

Wow, I was blown away by all of these responses! Thank you all so much for taking the time to write these replies down, they really helped me. It's looking like I'm going to move forward with applying for this position, and I'll heavily consider it if they make me an offer. I may circle back with more questions when I learn specifics about this VA / position. Thank you all again!

 

[psych.meout]

If the position is open to grad psychologists, the facility will arrange for a supervisory psychologist if an unlicensed psychologist is hired.

Of course, you'll need to ask questions & make sure you have your future licensure ducks in a row. And ask for what you think you'll need for licensure, ideally after the tentative offer is officially made and before you sign the formal offer (think of it as a negotiation).

As far as I know, grad psychologists (since they are full time staff) are eligible for EDRP and relocation bonuses. You can ask the hiring manager during or after the interview or email the HR contact if this is a public USAJobs posting (see the bottom of the listing) to confirm. Good luck!

Doesn't the job itself have to be designated as EDRP?

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Doesn't the job itself have to be designated as EDRP?

Generally yes. I've seen it added to existing positions (e.g., I was offered it after being in a position for a few years when our VA was trying to find ways to retain psychologists), but those are typically special situations. The VA also needs to have funding for it.

But nowadays, I'd be surprised if almost every psychologist position isn't listed as eligible for EDRP.

 

[RxPsych]

Follow-up question about EDRP within the VA, is that something that's offered during postdoc as well? I'll likely be considering a VA for my neuro postdoc and am curious if those positions are ever eligible for EDRP.

 

[Sanman]

Follow-up question about EDRP within the VA, is that something that's offered during postdoc as well? I'll likely be considering a VA for my neuro postdoc and am curious if those positions are ever eligible for EDRP.

I don't believe so as a post-doc is a training position and not a full-time staff position. A graduate psychologist is a full-time staff position with supervision offered in order to obtain licensure. Something that I have not seen mentioned yet, I believe there is a clock on how long you can take to get licensed before losing your job (two years maybe?)

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Follow-up question about EDRP within the VA, is that something that's offered during postdoc as well? I'll likely be considering a VA for my neuro postdoc and am curious if those positions are ever eligible for EDRP.

Like Sanman said, I don't think postdocs are eligible for EDRP and I've never seen it listed for such a position.

However, if you make student loan payments while on postdoc, that does count toward PSLF if you're trying to go that route.

 

[summerbabe]

Follow-up question about EDRP within the VA, is that something that's offered during postdoc as well? I'll likely be considering a VA for my neuro postdoc and am curious if those positions are ever eligible for EDRP.

As others have stated, EDRP is only eligible for staff positions, including non-licensed ones, that are otherwise difficult to fill.

So it’s ultimately a staff recruitment and retention tool and trainees are not technically classified as staff in the VA system. Nor are VA neuro postdocs difficult to fill (but that’s besides the point).

However, VA postdocs and neuro ones can be fantastic training opportunities, especially at the right place since training will usually be protected in meaningful ways and you’ll likely be around some very smart supervisors and staff. Good luck!

 

[cara susanna]

I would recommend checking out our VA support thread for a real life look at everyday life as a VA psychologist (although be aware it likely skews negative there, there's definitely a response bias)

 

[JustNoticing]

I’m a former VA intern and current VA postdoc, with some colleagues who took GS-11 positions. What everyone else has said basically sums it up from what I’ve heard from colleagues and my TD last year when discussing GS-11 positions. The main things I want to add is that they are required to provide supervision that meets the licensing requirements of the state you are located in, and that’s it. So just be aware of what the licensing requirements are like for that state compared to others you may want to be licensed in. Also, while the VA is on a hiring spree, the process is by no means quick. Even my colleagues who got job offers in October of our internship year didn’t actually start their positions until about 4-5 months after finishing their internships and conferring their degrees. The HR wheels move VERY slowly in VA hiring, so I would prepare for a potential few months without an income.

If you want the supervision but don't live in a state that requires this, make sure you negotiate that with management/your future supervisor at the time of hiring. This was easy enough for me to do.

I don't have a lot to add beyond what others have said, but I am definitely glad I took a graduate psychologist position out of internship, and regularly try to tell interns about this, especially in the current milieu of never ending training, and misconceptions about "states requiring a post-doc." If you are looking to go into private practice as a generalist, I'd say it probably doesn't matter that much and the extra $20k in your pocket will be more useful to starting your business than the extra training year, but may depend on your specialty and the particulars of the post-doc.

 

[DSG15]

grad psychologists are eligible for paid parental leave right away if you did a VA internship and transition straight to the GS-11 position.

Does this apply to all VAs? I have heard mixed things about this and it’s truly a deciding factor in whether I decide on a grad psychologist position or postdoc. I know I need to confirm with my VA, but just curious of others experiences. Also, when you say transition straight to the GS-11 position, does that imply there’s a time-sensitive nature to it? I have a tentative offer to start as soon as my degree is conferred following internship, but I know VA HR can take a long time with onboarding and all the associated hiccups.

 

[PsyDuck90]

As a GS-11, you are full time staff, so you are eligible for all the benefits of full time staff. Trainees are not eligible for several benefits of full time staff, like EDRP, maternity leave, and retirement stuff. I don’t recall if you need to be employed for a certain amount of time before eligibility for maternity leave, so I would maybe see if you can find that out (or someone else may be aware), but I don’t think there’s a waiting period for that.

 

[DSG15]

As a GS-11, you are full time staff, so you are eligible for all the benefits of full time staff. Trainees are not eligible for several benefits of full time staff, like EDRP, maternity leave, and retirement stuff. I don’t recall if you need to be employed for a certain amount of time before eligibility for maternity leave, so I would maybe see if you can find that out (or someone else may be aware), but I don’t think there’s a waiting period for that.

Thanks for your response! That’s what I thought about being a trainee and how it differs as a GS-11. I was mostly curious if others had heard that coming straight from a VA internship made you eligible for PFL immediately as a GS-11 and also your point about whether there is a time commitment needed as a GS-11 before you are eligible for maternity leave.

 

[JustNoticing]

This makes it seem that a year of service is required to be eligible for the paid parental leave...I did not know that! You'd need to check with HR (and get in writing) whether internship would count towards that, but I suspect it might not. Internship does count towards your service date for leave accrual, so you never know.

https://www.afge.org/globalassets/documents/wfp/pfl-booklet_march10-2021.pdf

 

[Grenth]

Does this apply to all VAs? I have heard mixed things about this and it’s truly a deciding factor in whether I decide on a grad psychologist position or postdoc. I know I need to confirm with my VA, but just curious of others experiences. Also, when you say transition straight to the GS-11 position, does that imply there’s a time-sensitive nature to it? I have a tentative offer to start as soon as my degree is conferred following internship, but I know VA HR can take a long time with onboarding and all the associated hiccups.

I have no idea if it applies across the board but I did do this myself in the past few years so that's one data point.

Edited to add my internship ended about six weeks before my official grad psychologist start date. I needed PPP within three months of starting as a grad psychologist. I was initially told I'd have to take LWOP and had filled out the paperwork when a rare hero from HR messaged me to say I shouldn't do LWOP because I qualified for PPP and it went seamlessly.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Is there a risk of being stuck at GS-11 once fully licensed? I haven’t seen it specifically happen, as I’ve seen positions post for GS-11/12, though if a position is only posted as a GS-11, are they stuck? I’d want to make sure that if I signed as a GS-11 that once fully licensed I’d get bumped to a GS-12 classification and hopefully have some “steps” included. I know that if a job is posted at a certain GS level, you are stuck with however it was designated, so apply carefully.

It seems that training level is GS-11, staff psych is GS-12, and specialists are GS-12/13. I only briefly considered a FT position, though w a two-year formal post-doc, neuropsych positions were/are GS-13, which as an early career was a pretty good option.

 

[PsyDuck90]

Is there a risk of being stuck at GS-11 once fully licensed? I haven’t seen it specifically happen, as I’ve seen positions post for GS-11/12, though if a position is only posted as a GS-11, are they stuck? I’d want to make sure that if I signed as a GS-11 that once fully licensed I’d get bumped to a GS-12 classification and hopefully have some “steps” included. I know that if a job is posted at a certain GS level, you are stuck with however it was designated, so apply carefully.

It seems that training level is GS-11, staff psych is GS-12, and specialists are GS-12/13. I only briefly considered a FT position, though w a two-year formal post-doc, neuropsych positions were/are GS-13, which as an early career was a pretty good option.

For psychology, a GS-11 is an unlicensed postdoctoral “graduated” psychologist. They automatically move to GS-12 once licensed and in a year in the GS-11 position. GS-12 is for licensed psychologists with 1 year of post-grad experience (so if someone did a 1 year formal postdoc and then went into a staff position, they would be a GS-12). I think there may be some wiggle room on licensure for the move from GS-11 to GS-12, but I’m in a neuro postdoc so I only vaguely paid attention to that part when our internship TD went over the process in a group supervision last year. There is a certain window in which you have to attain licensure, but getting it sooner won’t speed up the jump to GS-12 (you have to spend a year in that position) and after that window, they can dismiss you. After a year as a GS-12, you move into a GS-13 and the associated steps (pending you are licensed). You also don’t have to be licensed in the state you are in. Some folks get licensed in easier states despite not living or working there since the VA just requires a license, not necessarily a license in the state you are practicing. Caveat is if you are a training director. You have to be licensed in that state since you are signing off on trainee hours. For psychologists, GS-11 and GS-12 aren’t stepped. That’s why neuropsychologists are automatically started at GS-13, because they are required to have completed the 2-year postdoc and subsequently have 2 years of post-graduate clinical experience.

Now, if it’s a non-psychologist position, then the structure is different. I believe LCSWs are capped at either a GS-11 or GS-12 if I remember a conversation with a primary care social worker correctly.

 

[summerbabe]

Does this apply to all VAs? I have heard mixed things about this and it’s truly a deciding factor in whether I decide on a grad psychologist position or postdoc. I know I need to confirm with my VA, but just curious of others experiences. Also, when you say transition straight to the GS-11 position, does that imply there’s a time-sensitive nature to it? I have a tentative offer to start as soon as my degree is conferred following internship, but I know VA HR can take a long time with onboarding and all the associated hiccups.

Confirming with the facility that would authorized this is definitely the way to go.

Having been with 4 different VA systems now, things that should be uniform does not always happen in a uniform fashion. Sometimes it's ignorance of the latest guidance, sometimes it's misinterpretation, and sometimes it's willful ignoring of a policy.

If you are getting getting pushback, see if you can find some formal VA guidance like a memo/policy or talk with centralized HR for your VISN.

Is there a risk of being stuck at GS-11 once fully licensed? I haven’t seen it specifically happen, as I’ve seen positions post for GS-11/12, though if a position is only posted as a GS-11, are they stuck? I’d want to make sure that if I signed as a GS-11 that once fully licensed I’d get bumped to a GS-12 classification and hopefully have some “steps” included. I know that if a job is posted at a certain GS level, you are stuck with however it was designated, so apply carefully.

It seems that training level is GS-11, staff psych is GS-12, and specialists are GS-12/13. I only briefly considered a FT position, though w a two-year formal post-doc, neuropsych positions were/are GS-13, which as an early career was a pretty good option.

This used to be a thing where a few USAJobs listings were only listed as GS11 & 12 eligible for some reason, instead of 11-13.

But recent jobs that I've seen have corrected for this dumb error but yes, if somebody accepted a GS11-12 only job, they won't be able to promote to GS13.

I think the fact that VA has recently moved to more a more centralized HR model (versus relying on the couple of local folks, some of whom have no clue) is helping.

 

[JustNoticing]

For psychology, a GS-11 is an unlicensed postdoctoral “graduated” psychologist. They automatically move to GS-12 once licensed and in a year in the GS-11 position. GS-12 is for licensed psychologists with 1 year of post-grad experience (so if someone did a 1 year formal postdoc and then went into a staff position, they would be a GS-12). I think there may be some wiggle room on licensure for the move from GS-11 to GS-12, but I’m in a neuro postdoc so I only vaguely paid attention to that part when our internship TD went over the process in a group supervision last year. There is a certain window in which you have to attain licensure, but getting it sooner won’t speed up the jump to GS-12 (you have to spend a year in that position) and after that window, they can dismiss you. After a year as a GS-12, you move into a GS-13 and the associated steps (pending you are licensed). You also don’t have to be licensed in the state you are in. Some folks get licensed in easier states despite not living or working there since the VA just requires a license, not necessarily a license in the state you are practicing. Caveat is if you are a training director. You have to be licensed in that state since you are signing off on trainee hours. For psychologists, GS-11 and GS-12 aren’t stepped. That’s why neuropsychologists are automatically started at GS-13, because they are required to have completed the 2-year postdoc and subsequently have 2 years of post-graduate clinical experience.

Now, if it’s a non-psychologist position, then the structure is different. I believe LCSWs are capped at either a GS-11 or GS-12 if I remember a conversation with a primary care social worker correctly.

just a warning that the move from gs11 to gs12 is not "automatic" and requires paperwork to be signed by various people and processed well in advance of that 1 year date...I have sadly seen folks lose out on thousands of dollars because they thought it would happen automatically, and unable to get back pay.
GS-13 is the full grade performance for all front line, non-managerial psychologists who are licensed and have the 2 years of post-grad experience. You don't have to be a specialist

 

[PsyDuck90]

just a warning that the move from gs11 to gs12 is not "automatic" and requires paperwork to be signed by various people and processed well in advance of that 1 year date...I have sadly seen folks lose out on thousands of dollars because they thought it would happen automatically, and unable to get back pay.
GS-13 is the full grade performance for all front line, non-managerial psychologists who are licensed and have the 2 years of post-grad experience. You don't have to be a specialist

Yikes, thank you for adding that. That would be awful, and I hope those people got back pay!