Eating Your Patients -- The Veterinarian's Dillema

Veterinary Science Graduate Certificate from UofI
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It was mentioned earlier, but google "Livestock's Long Shadow" for the PDF. It's a great read and a very thorough look at agriculture and the environment.
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I don't know why I'm chiming in again, but...


I think some people need to better flesh out what they see as a "dilemma" in raising animals or any other type of food for consumption. If it all dwindles down to "choosing your battles" we're all in the same ethical quagmire and each and every decision we make is not better or worse than anyone else's. If someone accepts the risk of killing animals with a car every day but believes that buying a pound of ground chuck once a week is ethically challenged, that person is hypocritical.

Who decides what risks and behaviors are acceptable if the end result is the same, the death of an animal?

From reading some of these posts, I think that some people abhor modern convention and convenience more than they do the slaughter of animals - example, "I hate factory farms but am okay or ambivalent towards hunting." WTF? If someone can't see how that is a privileged perspective, they probably never will.

When it comes to food ethics, if someone wouldn't feel comfortable walking into the poorest village in the developing world and sharing his/her opinion that "meat is murder," I would highly doubt that person's convictions.

The circumstantial or, perhaps, constitutive morality of this topic is problematic and, frequently, reeks of privilege.
 
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Jess Monster said:
I don't know why I'm chiming in again, but...


I think some people need to better flesh out what they see as a "dilemma" in raising animals or any other type of food for consumption. If it all dwindles down to "choosing your battles" we're all in the same ethical quagmire and each and every decision we make is not better or worse than anyone else's. If someone accepts the risk of killing animals with a car every day but believes that buying a pound of ground chuck once a week is ethically challenged, that person is hypocritical.

Who decides what risks and behaviors are acceptable if the end result is the same, the death of an animal?

From reading some of these posts, I think that some people abhor modern convention and convenience more than they do the slaughter of animals - example, "I hate factory farms but am okay or ambivalent towards hunting." WTF? If someone can't see how that is a privileged perspective, they probably never will.

When it comes to food ethics, if someone wouldn't feel comfortable walking into the poorest village in the developing world and sharing his/her opinion that "meat is murder," I would highly doubt that person's convictions.

The circumstantial or, perhaps, constitutive morality of this topic is problematic and, frequently, reeks of privilege.
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This post reeks of moral relativism. You also set up a straw man argument by not addressing a specific person's points, but ambiguously make references to certain hypothetical positions and just immediately start calling out "hypocrites". Do you not see the error in that? It's not very conducive to discussion to grandstand and accuse others of not acknowledging their privilege without naming specific instances or individuals.
 
Jess Monster said:
I don't know why I'm chiming in again, but...

I think some people need to better flesh out what they see as a "dilemma" in raising animals or any other type of food for consumption. If it all dwindles down to "choosing your battles" we're all in the same ethical quagmire and each and every decision we make is not better or worse than anyone else's. If someone accepts the risk of killing animals with a car every day but believes that buying a pound of ground chuck once a week is ethically challenged, that person is hypocritical.
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That is a completely fallacious argument due to the fact that killing an animal with an automobile is an accident without intent and/or malice. Buying a pound of ground chuck is a conscious choice. It has nothing to do with "privilege".

If you think the two are equal (or think people should consider them equal), then by that logic, someone who accidentally hits a child that runs into the road is just as guilty of murder as someone who purposefully kills a child. I mean, how far would that go? Is flying in an airplane because you might hit a bird just as "bad" as buying farmed beef? I doubt even the most vehement vegan (alliteration, ho!) would say so.

Disclaimer: I'm not comparing buying meat to killing children by any means. I am simply showing that such an argument lacks proper backing.

In addition, the argument comparing hunting and factory farms is also lacking. It is perfectly reasonable to have a moral problem with one and not the other if your main concern is animal welfare. If you have a problem within killing animals altogether, then yes, they are equivalent. However, I think the majority of us here are speaking from a welfare perspective. A quick shot to the heart, when done right, is a relatively humane way to die (moreso than being killed by most predators). "Factory farm" conditions are much different and much more of a gray area when compared to hunting. You simply cannot compare the two unless your argument is primarily the rightness of wrongness of eating animals PERIOD, not whether or not certain treatment is acceptable/humane (again, the argument that most people have been making here).
 
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Ok I'm going to chime in here on just one specific point, because honestly I just don't know enough about the industry or animal welfare or anything to contribute to most of this conversation.

I DO come from a wildlife/behavior background, so WTF, by mentioning that the food animals are killed more humanely than many animals in the wild, you sparked my memory to someone earlier in the thread who mentioned that "lion kill zebra" was ok and natural. I just want everyone to understand exactly HOW inhumane it gets out there.

I have seen with my own eyes a rattlesnake bite a squirrel pup, then wait for hours while the pup dies before tracking it and eating it. Komodo dragons have a similar strategy but with them it's on the order of days. Days when the animal dies a horrifically agonizing death. Speaking of rape, there are so many animals out there for whom rape is the "natural" way to reproduce. The number of barbs, spines, and other tortuous devices on many insect penises is incredible. I want to put a disclaimer in here that I do NOT mean to cheapen human rape. It is a completely different subject. Which is why I don't have a problem with AI...different species, completely different methods.

But you might say, that happens in insects! Insects can't feel pain! Are we really sure about that? I haven't checked out everything on here but it seems to do a good job of laying the issue out: http://www.utilitarian-essays.com/insect-pain.html. This one here: http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2009/03/27/crab-lobster-pain.html is a bit more hard-hitting. Now we can go on and start debating consciousness and all that but in my book, the jury's still out on insects feeling pain. Once upon a time, we considered humans to be superior to other animals because we were the only ones who could use tools, pass on techniques from generation to generation, and use language. Whoops.

So now if insects can feel pain, (which I know is still not shown conclusively but still needs to be considered), think about the mass murders that are committed by an animal's own species! Its own bloodline (ok...hemolymph-line)! What about the queen sending out the masses of bees to sting the intruder, then die? What about the ants, whose biomass makes up the majority of all animal life, being sent for food with the chance of one particular ant making it back not being exactly that high? It's only by sheer numbers that ants get anything accomplished.

So is it right for the Komodo dragon to kill its prey the way it does? Is it right for queen ants to reap such incredible profits from her minions (technically her children) dying on scales we can't imagine? In the wild, in my book, yes. If these species weren't successful, then another species would be. I don't need to remind you all about how evolution works. We did make it to the top of the food chain. And while that brings a lot of responsibilities I think we as a species are ignoring (resource use, climate change, etc), I don't think it brings the responsibility to stop eating other animals, as long as we're doing it humanely. Which is a point I can't debate because I don't know enough about it.

I am not a logician and someone who is can tell me whether this argument is even relevant. If not, sorry for boring you all. :)
 
Lobsters and crabs feel pain... and look what we do to them :/
 
WhtsThFrequency said:
In addition, the argument comparing hunting and factory farms is also lacking. It is perfectly reasonable to have a moral problem with one and not the other if your main concern is animal welfare. If you have a problem within killing animals altogether, then yes, they are equivalent. However, I think the majority of us here are speaking from a welfare perspective. A quick shot to the heart, when done right, is a relatively humane way to die (moreso than being killed by most predators). "Factory farm" conditions are much different and much more of a gray area when compared to hunting. You simply cannot compare the two unless your argument is primarily the rightness of wrongness of eating animals PERIOD, not whether or not certain treatment is acceptable/humane (again, the argument that most people have been making here).
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My point in asking that was bc many people have issues with factory farming because of the way animals are kept in confinement which I totally understand. But then they get mad at someone for hunting, which just shows me they are against eating animals in general. And the bold part was exactly my point. Some people claim to only hate factory farming, but then criticize hunters. That's where the hypocricy issue came in that I was talking about. I completely agree with what you're saying. I guess my point didn't come through very clearly. I am a hunter and that's why I asked. I get tired of hearing crap from people who think I'm "mean" for "killing bambi"
 
I think theres a big difference between hunting things you are going to eat and hunting for sport. If you talk about hunting for sport, then it seems like it could be considered within the same category as factory farming in that they both involve the needless harm caused to living things. Hunting something you will eat seems to be totally different. I don't think you can say "hunting" is right or wrong, you've got to break it down into motives.
 
futurehealervet said:
I think theres a big difference between hunting things you are going to eat and hunting for sport. If you talk about hunting for sport, then it seems like it could be considered within the same category as factory farming in that they both involve the needless harm caused to living things. Hunting something you will eat seems to be totally different. I don't think you can say "hunting" is right or wrong, you've got to break it down into motives.
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Which I did in my original post about it. I specifically said I am not talking about hunting for sport bc thats a completely different topic.
 
Emiloo4 said:
My point in asking that was bc many people have issues with factory farming because of the way animals are kept in confinement which I totally understand. But then they get mad at someone for hunting, which just shows me they are against eating animals in general. And the bold part was exactly my point. Some people claim to only hate factory farming, but then criticize hunters. That's where the hypocricy issue came in that I was talking about. I completely agree with what you're saying. I guess my point didn't come through very clearly. I am a hunter and that's why I asked. I get tired of hearing crap from people who think I'm "mean" for "killing bambi"
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I will honestly admit that I am not sure how I feel about it. My dad used to hunt ducks and is also a catch-and-release fisherman. He hunted ducks for us to eat. He also claims that it helps keep the duck population down although I haven't done much reading into it. IMO, it is a lot better than buying mystery meat from a grocery store that you do not know the origins of. It is healthier too. When I was a kid, I was fine with it. When I first stopped eating meat, I was against it. Now I don't know.

.
 
Trematode said:
I will honestly admit that I am not sure how I feel about it. My dad used to hunt ducks and is also a catch-and-release fisherman. He hunted ducks for us to eat. He also claims that it helps keep the duck population down although I haven't done much reading into it. IMO, it is a lot better than buying mystery meat from a grocery store that you do not know the origins of. It is healthier too. When I was a kid, I was fine with it. When I first stopped eating meat, I was against it. Now I don't know.

.
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I hunt mostly deer, hog, and duck. I will say that especially in FL, the hog population is completely out of control and it causes tons of disease and starvation among them. Same with deer. The higher the overpopulation, usually more disease and starvation can be seen due to competition within that species. I would personally rather harvest a deer, than let it die of starvation or disease, which is a much slower, more painful process. I have no problem with people disagreeing with hunting. Just can't stand when someone goes on and on about not eating meat bc of the way they are confined in farming, but then think I'm horrible for harvesting an animal who was happy one second and doesn't know better the next. To me, that's hypocritical (If confinement is what they claim their problem to be). If you believe that eating animals in general is cruel, then that's different.
 
If a meat eater says that you are killing Bambi, they are a jerk. At least you were able to see the animal you were killing instead of picking up a ready-to-cool deer part from the grocery store.
 
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I saw a documentary that said that people who hunt for sport may be doing more harm than good to the ecosystem. When you hunt deer for sport, you are trying to find the biggest animal you can for "bragging rights". What happens when you take enough of the strong animals out of the picture? The weaker ones are left to breed.

That's the only thing I have seen that is against hunting. It's a good theory, but I think I need to see more evidence that this is actually a concern.
 
Trematode said:
If a meat eater says that you are killing Bambi, they are a jerk. At least you were able to see the animal you were killing instead of picking up a ready-to-cool deer part from the grocery store.
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Why is it only a meat eater that would be a jerk if they said that? I would think anyone who told someone that hunts that would be considered a jerk because that is just offensive no matter what you eat.
 
And I will add that I literally do it for meat. The "sport" part of it is way to expensive and completely contradicts my entire purpose of eating fresh, free meat. We have 2 deep freezers full of venison and pork which saves me tons of money, and GREATLY reduces the amount of meat I buy. In fact I rarely buy meat at all. To me, there is nothing wrong with that. It's what humans have done for centuries.
 
DVMDream said:
Why is it only a meat eater that would be a jerk if they said that? I would think anyone who told someone that hunts that would be considered a jerk because that is just offensive no matter what you eat.
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:thumbup: I was just about to address that lol
 
Trematode said:
I saw a documentary that said that people who hunt for sport may be doing more harm than good to the ecosystem. When you hunt deer for sport, you are trying to find the biggest animal you can for "bragging rights". What happens when you take enough of the strong animals out of the picture? The weaker ones are left to breed.

That's the only thing I have seen that is against hunting. It's a good theory, but I think I need to see more evidence that this is actually a concern.
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I know plenty of people that hunt for meat that go for the biggest animals. Bigger animal=more meat
 
Trematode said:
I saw a documentary that said that people who hunt for sport may be doing more harm than good to the ecosystem. When you hunt deer for sport, you are trying to find the biggest animal you can for "bragging rights". What happens when you take enough of the strong animals out of the picture? The weaker ones are left to breed.

That's the only thing I have seen that is against hunting. It's a good theory, but I think I need to see more evidence that this is actually a concern.
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I don't think anyone could be killing enough deer to "hurt the ecosystem" but yes, many sport hunters go for the big kill. If you are hunting for meat, the large bucks don't really tend to taste good, so that would just be silly. Don't get me wrong, even those of us who hunt for food, enjoy the sporting aspect of actually partaking in hunting out and killing your own food source. And when I see a big buck, you bet I'm gonna shoot it. It might not be as tasty, but it's got more meat. That's what we've done for centuries, its part of human nature. But most hunters will also shoot the injured deer standing next to that buck before we will get our trophy deer. I would rather put an animal out of its misery and appreciate its meat than hang one on my wall.
 
Trematode said:
Lobsters and crabs feel pain... and look what we do to them :/
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Yes, that's the article I linked to. But that is a fairly recent study (2009) and I think the humane implications of it will take a while to process. I agree with WTF that the debate should be whether or not to eat the animal in the first place though.

If insects can feel pain, I shouldn't be slapping mosquitoes either, but I'm not going to stop that even if it were the last mosquito on Earth...:laugh:
 
Emiloo4 said:
My point in asking that was bc many people have issues with factory farming because of the way animals are kept in confinement which I totally understand. But then they get mad at someone for hunting, which just shows me they are against eating animals in general. And the bold part was exactly my point. Some people claim to only hate factory farming, but then criticize hunters. That's where the hypocricy issue came in that I was talking about. I completely agree with what you're saying. I guess my point didn't come through very clearly. I am a hunter and that's why I asked. I get tired of hearing crap from people who think I'm "mean" for "killing bambi"
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Wait...I was responding to Jess Monster, not you? I'm confused....

But yes, your point is very valid.
 
I never realized just how many people hunt in the US. There aren't too many in Germany and many hunters have a forest they take care of. It's not just going out to hunt and then come back. It's taking care of the plants and animals, feeding animals if it's a harsh winter, shooting the sick ones more so than the healthy ones, etc. You usually have to go through testing to be allowed to hunt because a big part about being a hunter is to help the environment and not just take away from it.

That being said, I would like to try it sometimes here. Especially with a bow.
 
PetPony said:
I never realized just how many people hunt in the US. There aren't too many in Germany and many hunters have a forest they take care of. It's not just going out to hunt and then come back. It's taking care of the plants and animals, feeding animals if it's a harsh winter, shooting the sick ones more so than the healthy ones, etc. You usually have to go through testing to be allowed to hunt because a big part about being a hunter is to help the environment and not just take away from it.

That being said, I would like to try it sometimes here. Especially with a bow.
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:thumbup: Just got a new one last year!:love:
 
DVMDream said:
Why is it only a meat eater that would be a jerk if they said that? I would think anyone who told someone that hunts that would be considered a jerk because that is just offensive no matter what you eat.
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Because a meat eater shouldn't be making fun of someone killing an animal when they eat dead things too.

What is considered "offensive"? Why is making a Bambi comment to a hunter offensive, but making comments about tasty tasty meat not offensive to someone who choses not to eat it? What about "But plants feel pain too?" What about "animals were put on here for us to eat"? A vegetarian in a group I am in calls poultry "dead birds" as in "How many dead birds do you need for thanksgiving this year?" instead of "How many turkeys...". Would that be offensive to start calling poultry "dead birds" (because that is what it is).

I can understand why it is frustrating for a hunter to hear "Oh, so you kill Bambi". But how many people take into consideration what they say to people who do not eat meat? I've gotten some doozies over the years. People who lick their lips and make some stupid comment about bacon or tasty tasty meat to be an asshat is frustrating to me.
 
that redhead said:
Maybe I'm in the minority, but none of these things would bother me. The poultry that I consume is dead, yes. The deer that I (hypothetically) hunt are like Bambi, yes. What's the big deal :confused:
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:thumbup:
 
that redhead said:
Maybe I'm in the minority, but none of these things would bother me. The poultry that I consume is dead, yes. The deer that I (hypothetically) hunt are like Bambi, yes. What's the big deal :confused:
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I have to agree.

I just found it odd that she singled out meat eaters specifically, especially since I have yet to meet anyone that consumes meat that is against hunting.
 
that redhead said:
Maybe I'm in the minority, but none of these things would bother me. The poultry that I consume is dead, yes. The deer that I (hypothetically) hunt are like Bambi, yes. What's the big deal :confused:
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Agreed.
Heck, I talk about Bambi to hunters. I know hunters who talk about Bambi.. And talking about Bambi doesn't mean that I'm going to say no if they offer to stock my freezer for me. :laugh: I used to live with some big hunters and I miss having venison. And elk. I love elk.
 
Trematode said:
Because a meat eater shouldn't be making fun of someone killing an animal when they eat dead things too.

What is considered "offensive"? Why is making a Bambi comment to a hunter offensive, but making comments about tasty tasty meat not offensive to someone who choses not to eat it? What about "But plants feel pain too?" What about "animals were put on here for us to eat"? A vegetarian in a group I am in calls poultry "dead birds" as in "How many dead birds do you need for thanksgiving this year?" instead of "How many turkeys...". Would that be offensive to start calling poultry "dead birds" (because that is what it is).

I can understand why it is frustrating for a hunter to hear "Oh, so you kill Bambi". But how many people take into consideration what they say to people who do not eat meat? I've gotten some doozies over the years. People who lick their lips and make some stupid comment about bacon or tasty tasty meat to be an asshat is frustrating to me.
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My point was.... why is it ok for a person who does NOT eat meat to tell someone that they are "killing Bambi"??

Why make the distinction.. especially since I have never meet a person who consumes meat to find the act of hunting bad. It was just odd..
 
Emiloo was the first one to point out that referring to "Bambi" is frustrating.

So I guess the general consensus is that it shouldn't piss a hunter off?
 
I didn't say it was okay for someone to eat meat to say that. Nobody should be saying that.

It's just more hypocritical for someone who eats meat to be offended by someone who hunts.
 
Based on statistics, I am assuming that the majority of people who would make a comment like that to her would be meat eaters.
 
Trematode said:
Based on statistics, I am assuming that the majority of people who would make a comment like that to her would be meat eaters.
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There are definitely less meat eaters that say it. And it doesn't bother me that people call it "bambi" because well Bambi is a deer and that's what I shoot. It doesn't offend me one bit. It's just people's annoying way of trying to make it seem extra sad or something. It's annoying to hear someone act that naive is all I meant.
 
Trematode said:
Based on statistics, I am assuming that the majority of people who would make a comment like that to her would be meat eaters.
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Wow... they did a study on how many people say "you kill bambi" to hunters?

I want to read that ****e... link me to it! :D
 
devyn said:
Wow... they did a study on how many people say "you kill bambi" to hunters?

I want to read that ****e... link me to it! :D
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Pretty sure she was just saying because of the much larger proportion of meat eaters vs. vegetarians. Still not a perfect use of statistics, but not worth jumping on.
 
Trilt said:
Pretty sure she was just saying because of the much larger proportion of meat eaters vs. vegetarians. Still not a perfect use of statistics, but not worth jumping on.
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Exactly.
 
I am a vegetarian and have been for several years. It is not really a moral issue for me, more of a health issue. Im not sure what sort of connection it is, but I have really bad asthma and it truthfully got better when I began to cut out meat from my diet. My Dr mentioned it about 6 years ago because I was on all kinds of steroids and was having to use my rescue inhaler at least once a day. I tried it on the off chance that something had to give and now here I am.

I had a year awhile back that I was a "sometimesatarian" when SO got me bonkers over a wendy's burger. Asthma got horrible, switched back and it got better.

I don't understand what the connection is, I just know it works for me. And when I do eat meat, I know where it comes from. For example, SO's boss hunts elk, best burger I ever had. I also have alot of friends who hunt deer as well and tend to enjoy bambi burger.

The majority of my friends, including SO are avid carnivores. I have seen a surprising amount of negative backlash when people find out I do not eat meat. I tend to not advertise it because it is my personal choice and I will make do at meal time without anything specially made for me.

The smell of meat actually gets me a little pukey sometimes, idk why. I was never a huge carnivore growing up either. I grew up in a household where my no-leg having grandfather shot a deer right out of his bedroom window from his wheelchair while I was eating breakfast. I understand the hunting community and the family ties it has. I have never been hunting and never will, it isnt for me personally. But all yall who bring me bambi sausage, mmmm keep on keepin on.
 
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I had a friend in college who would only eat meat (including fish) that he killed himself or that had been killed by someone he knew well. He felt that that was the only way he could know for sure if the animal's death had been humane. In restaurants, dining halls, grocery stores, etc., he was vegetarian. I thought it was kind of a cool way to live. Other thoughts?
 
washbucket said:
I had a friend in college who would only eat meat (including fish) that he killed himself or that had been killed by someone he knew well. He felt that that was the only way he could know for sure if the animal's death had been humane. In restaurants, dining halls, grocery stores, etc., he was vegetarian. I thought it was kind of a cool way to live. Other thoughts?
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:thumbup:
 
washbucket said:
I had a friend in college who would only eat meat (including fish) that he killed himself or that had been killed by someone he knew well. He felt that that was the only way he could know for sure if the animal's death had been humane. In restaurants, dining halls, grocery stores, etc., he was vegetarian. I thought it was kind of a cool way to live. Other thoughts?
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That sort of reminded me of my ex-friend who developed a weird way of justifying eating animals. She would eat chicken nuggets and chicken burgers but avoided wings and whole birds because it looked "too much like an animal". She thought the way her ex ate wings was barbaric (he would suck the marrow from the bones). If people carved a bird away from her, she would eat it. She got upset that her parents were serving a "cute" lamb at Christmas instead of ham and yet had no problem buying a brisket from a butcher. She would eat canned tuna but not buy actual fish. Although I never rubbed my lifestyle in her face, she felt the need to justify her eating habits... several times...
 
Emiloo4 said:
There are definitely less meat eaters that say it. And it doesn't bother me that people call it "bambi" because well Bambi is a deer and that's what I shoot. It doesn't offend me one bit. It's just people's annoying way of trying to make it seem extra sad or something. It's annoying to hear someone act that naive is all I meant.
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Since you're a hunter in Florida, I just have to ask...going after any snakes?? What the heck are people doing with them, eating them?
 
parula said:
Since you're a hunter in Florida, I just have to ask...going after any snakes?? What the heck are people doing with them, eating them?
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I think it is mainly for population control/elimination. The boa's around here (specifically in south fl and everglades) are an introduced species and do crazy well here. They're screwing with the local wildlife.

A friend of mine got a license for like $5 and uses the skin for things.
 
MommaFox said:
I think it is mainly for population control/elimination. The boa's around here (specifically in south fl and everglades) are an introduced species and do crazy well here. They're screwing with the local wildlife.

A friend of mine got a license for like $5 and uses the skin for things.
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Yeah they are practically begging people to help eradicate them. They are ruining the ecosystem of the Everglades. They've found exploded pythons with whole deer and alligators in them. They get huge and are invasive.
 
cowgirla said:
Which goes right back to the post about how the new, sudden demand for quinoa is ruining the lives of people who used to depend on it as a cheap, healthy food source where there was no other option. There is no way to feed a population that does not hurt some animal/plant/person in some way/shape/form. Just because a plant doesn't feel pain doesn't mean there's no suffering involved in a vegetarian diet.
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Those concerns were apparently overblown. Just because demand may driving up some of costs of the grain, it is bringing a lot of outside revenue to an otherwise impoverished group of countries and if we stopped buying quinoa just because we felt guilty, more harm would come to the people in those countries due to the lost growth of their economies.

http://www.slate.com/articles/life/...n_farmers_ignore_the_media_hand_wringing.html
 
Question: don't they use manure as fertilizer?

Alternate solution: eat organic.
 
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