eitquette to let programs know of your intent?

[deeq]

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just curious regarding the proper protocol for letting programs know you are VERY interested. i will probably write a formal letter but would think it to be poor form to come right out and say, 'i will be ranking you first.'
anyone out there heard of a decent way to let your interest be known?
thanks.

 

[minime]

I also wondered exactly what you should say. Is it against the rules to tell them that you are going to rank them number one? I'm a D.O. so all of the rules don't apply to me exactly but I'm not sure that all of the PD's at the allopathic programs know that so just to be safe I'm going to follow all of the rules.

 

[ekmo]

just curious regarding the proper protocol for letting programs know you are VERY interested. i will probably write a formal letter but would think it to be poor form to come right out and say, 'i will be ranking you first.'
anyone out there heard of a decent way to let your interest be known?
thanks.

As far as I know there is no rule for applicants about telling programs how you will rank them. However, it is illegal for them to tell you. When I interviewed around I would tell programs I am highly interested in them and will rank them highly. I think it is never good to tell a program you will rank then 1st or it may end up hurting you. For instance: I am a program interested in you, but I'm also interested in another applicant. If I know you will rank me 1st, I then know I can rank you 2nd or 3rd and likely still get you. However, if I want you and think you may rank my program 3rd, then I need to put you first to have a better chance at getting you.

During my interviews I only had one school who actually contacted me and told me that I was at the top, I didn't report it, but it was illegal. They basically said "we want you, the choice is now yours". I would recommend on not giving the rank, but saying you will rank them very high. Hope that helps!

Ekmo
http://ekmo.blogspot.com

 

[deeq]

ekmo, thanks for the information. it is certainly helpful. i do have one question though. i didn't think that it mattered where a program ranked you, so long as you were within their number of slots available. for instance, if i rank a program with 5 spots number one and they rank me number four, and then if my number two ranked program ranks me number one....well, do i not then match at my number one ranked program? i thought the system worked for the applicants more than the programs.
thanks for the insight though.

 

[ekmo]

ekmo, thanks for the information. it is certainly helpful. i do have one question though. i didn't think that it mattered where a program ranked you, so long as you were within their number of slots available. for instance, if i rank a program with 5 spots number one and they rank me number four, and then if my number two ranked program ranks me number one....well, do i not then match at my number one ranked program? i thought the system worked for the applicants more than the programs.
thanks for the insight though.

You are a hundred percent correct that the algorithm does give preference to the students choice. Years prior people would actually rank programs trying to out think the algorithm. There are 3 points about the question you ask:
1) Albeit fair, this is still an algorithm, it has no feelings and will not feel bad for giving your spot to another due to a thousands of a point.

2) You need to remember that you have to assume everyone else is also putting that program at number one, so now the programs ranking does matter.

3) Never assume you are being ranked in the alloted slots. Even thought most people get one of their top 3 choices, you have to assume that everyone is going to rank your top program 1st and you want them to rank you as high as possible.

Therefore, rank your honestly top program as one. Tell all programs that you are highly interested, but don't make them feel comfortable that you absolutely ranked them one. Second, pick the programs in the honest preferences rank you would like to go to. And last, but most important, do not, do not, rank programs for "back up" programs in case you don't get in. If you don't want to go there, don't rank them. 2 years prior, Hopkins had to scramble. The point: Your better off scrambling and knowing where your going, then going to a program your going to be miserable at. This may all change in a few years if scrambling is removed for a second match.

Hope this helps.

EKMO
http://ekmo.blogspot.com

 

[gnahce]

In brief, read this first paragraph and for supporting documentation see the quotes picked out from the NRMP website below.

In summary, either you or the program can volunteer rank information, and as long as you both don't tell the other that you will rank them #1 (which would in essence be in an agreement in principle to join the program before the match process has been processed) you can tell them whatever you want without any repercussions from NRMP. On the other hand telling every program that you'll rank them #1 might not be such a good idea if you consider that many residency directors are friends and might be talking to each other about their candidates.

I hope this helps clear up the mountain of confusion and mythology that has developed around the match program.

See excerpts from the NRMP website regarding the match agreement:

"The Match Participation Agreement does not preclude one party from expressing a high level of interest in the other; however, any attempt by either party to request such information is a violation of the Match Participation Agreement. Statements implying a commitment should be avoided. Rank order lists take precedence over verbal commitments."

"Applicants and program directors may express a high degree of interest in each other and try to influence decisions in their favor, but must not make statements implying a commitment. Although the Match Participation Agreement does not prohibit either an applicant or program director from volunteering how he/she plans to rank the other, it is a violation of the NRMP policies to request such information."

"Program directors and applicants frequently engage in the practice of sending letters following the applicant's interview with the program. Those letters often contain statements that can be misinterpreted by either party. Match participants must understand that such letters are not binding and have no standing when final rank order lists are submitted."

"Examples of Match Program Violations:
* A program accepts and signs an agreement with a U.S. senior before Match Day.
* An applicant requests a contract before the announcement of Match results
* An applicant commits to a concurrent year training position outside the NRMP Match and does not withdraw from the NRMP Match. (This includes an applicant who matches to a concurrent year PGY1 position in another Match that precedes the NRMP Match.)
* A program director "guarantees" an applicant that he/she will rank the applicant within the program's quota, but only if the applicant will rank the program first on his/her rank order list.
* An applicant "guarantees" a program director that he/she will rank the program first on their rank order list, but only if the program director will rank the applicant within the program's quota."

"One of the purposes of the Matching Program is to allow both applicants and programs to make selection decisions on a uniform schedule and without undue or unwarranted pressure. Both applicants and programs may express a high degree of interest in each other and try to influence future ranking decisions in their favor, but must not make statements implying a commitment. It is a material breach of this Agreement for a participant in the Matching Program to make any verbal or written contract for appointment to a concurrent year residency position prior to the Matching Program. In addition, although applicants or programs may volunteer how they plan to rank each other, it is a material breach of this Agreement to request such information. Only the final preferences of programs and applicants, as reflected in their final certified rank order lists, will determine the offering of positions and the placement of applicants through the Matching Program."

 

[scm]

Therefore, rank your honestly top program as one. Tell all programs that you are highly interested, but don't make them feel comfortable that you absolutely ranked them one. EKMO
http://ekmo.blogspot.com

just trolling around, i disagree here. i think it's important to tell a program they are your #1. my deans, most students ive talked to who matched inthe past have also felt this way....a number of programs i've interviewed at have stated that it matters if they are your#1 etc, they often actually _move people up_ in their own rank list if they find out they are ranking them # 1 etc. programs want people who want to go there-it makes a difference to them. telling programs you are "ranking them highly" essentially means nothing at this point, everyone is saying that to them, it's vague, and who knows where you'll rank them, if you tell them they are your #1, they care much more about that.. if you are someone they liked, vs people ahead of you on their list who were equally as strong though not as verbal about their interest, there's a chance they'll move you up. at least this is how i understand things.. granted, this is an assumption, but so is the above (an approach I also understand, but wouldnt risk).

 

[obg2005]

Originally Posted by ekmo
"2) You need to remember that you have to assume everyone else is also putting that program at number one, so now the programs ranking does matter."

As far as I know, it doesn't matter how the program is ranking you IF they are ranking you in the alloted number of slots (if they take five people and they ranked you in their top five), because if you rank them first, you will matched whether you are number 1 or number 5. And lets say you didn't matched in your first choice, and for your second choice you are in their top 5 (and they take 5 people), you will matched in your second choice, and even if their number 6-10 have ranked their program first, you will matched in that program either way. It is supposed to work in favor of the applicant, that's how I have understand it.

Originally Posted by gnahce:
either you or the program can volunteer rank information, and as long as you both don't tell the other that you will rank them #1
"Applicants and program directors may express a high degree of interest in each other and try to influence decisions in their favor, but must not make statements implying a commitment. Although the Match Participation Agreement does not prohibit either an applicant or program director from volunteering how he/she plans to rank the other, it is a violation of the NRMP policies to request such information."

This statement if confusing, because it says that you cannot make statements implying a commitment, but then it says that either party can volunteer how they plan to rank the other.

Either way, in all my interviews the residents and faculty have said that if you really want to go there, let someone from the program know about it because it does matter to them and they will use that to make the rank list.

 

[Diane L. Evans]

Write a letter to the program director and to a 3rd yr PGY telling them what you liked about the program why you'd be a good candidate and why their program (i.e near family, liked the research opportunities, etc...) Also go for second looks to programs you will rank 1-3.
Good luck
🙂 Diane

 

[ekmo]

Originally Posted by ekmo
"2) You need to remember that you have to assume everyone else is also putting that program at number one, so now the programs ranking does matter."

As far as I know, it doesn't matter how the program is ranking you IF they are ranking you in the alloted number of slots (if they take five people and they ranked you in their top five), because if you rank them first, you will matched whether you are number 1 or number 5. And lets say you didn't matched in your first choice, and for your second choice you are in their top 5 (and they take 5 people), you will matched in your second choice, and even if their number 6-10 have ranked their program first, you will matched in that program either way. It is supposed to work in favor of the applicant, that's how I have understand it.

Your right on everything you stated above! However, you don't honestly believe that it just happens to work out that everyone who puts their top three actually got one of the top 3 spots. For example, you don't think that 10 of the top programs, aren't going to rank the 10 top medical students in the country as their tops spots? Yet not all of them can fill the top spots at each program. I understand your point, but honestly, your thinking in a fishbowl. The program's rank does matter, because a lot of the top programs do go down the list further then spots they have. Do you not recall Hopkins scrambling? Do not assume you will get a rank within the alloted spots!

 

[cbc]

Ekmo, obg2005 is correct.

For example, you and another applicant. The school considers you at #5 and other applicant #6, it doesnt matter to them if they move the other applicant whether you rank them #1 or #200. If you rank them #1, they get you. If you rank them #200, they get the other applicant. So if you had ranked them #200 and they change you to #100, they will still get the #6 applicant. Whether they change you or not doesnt change the fact that they will certainly get #6 applicant. The system does work in the favor of the applicants.

And in your example, where a program is filled, it doesnt matter if you rank them #1 or #100. If they have no spot for you, you will not go there. They will not move you down the slot just because you rank them #1, because they will not get you especially since that program is highly coveted by many applicants, so others likely ranked them high also.

Your right on everything you stated above! However, you don't honestly believe that it just happens to work out that everyone who puts their top three actually got one of the top 3 spots. For example, you don't think that 10 of the top programs, aren't going to rank the 10 top medical students in the country as their tops spots? Yet not all of them can fill the top spots at each program. I understand your point, but honestly, your thinking in a fishbowl. The program's rank does matter, because a lot of the top programs do go down the list further then spots they have. Do you not recall Hopkins scrambling? Do not assume you will get a rank within the alloted spots!

 

[ekmo]

just trolling around, i disagree here. i think it's important to tell a program they are your #1. my deans, most students ive talked to who matched inthe past have also felt this way....a number of programs i've interviewed at have stated that it matters if they are your#1 etc, they often actually _move people up_ in their own rank list if they find out they are ranking them # 1 etc. programs want people who want to go there-it makes a difference to them. telling programs you are "ranking them highly" essentially means nothing at this point, everyone is saying that to them, it's vague, and who knows where you'll rank them, if you tell them they are your #1, they care much more about that.. if you are someone they liked, vs people ahead of you on their list who were equally as strong though not as verbal about their interest, there's a chance they'll move you up. at least this is how i understand things.. granted, this is an assumption, but so is the above (an approach I also understand, but wouldnt risk).

I'm not trying to play devils advocate, but what if I'm a program and I want applicant "a" a little more then "b", and I know that "b" is going to put me number one. Wouldn't I put "a" first, and put "b" after "a" since that is my first choice and I know that I can count on "b" ranking me higher? I understand everyone's point but this seems to common sense to me! It's a basic principle in life: A bird in the hand, is better then two in the bush! If you know the guy is commited to you as number one, your safe with putting them lower. Why would a program rank you higher just cause you rank them higher (I agree if you like them they might like you more), all they care is they get the top people they believe are the top appicants for their program. Who cares if your ranked 1 or 50. If you get in, your in!

 

[ekmo]

Originally Posted by ekmo
"2) You need to remember that you have to assume everyone else is also putting that program at number one, so now the programs ranking does matter."

As far as I know, it doesn't matter how the program is ranking you IF they are ranking you in the alloted number of slots (if they take five people and they ranked you in their top five), because if you rank them first, you will matched whether you are number 1 or number 5. And lets say you didn't matched in your first choice, and for your second choice you are in their top 5 (and they take 5 people), you will matched in your second choice, and even if their number 6-10 have ranked their program first, you will matched in that program either way. It is supposed to work in favor of the applicant, that's how I have understand it.

But what if they don't rank you in the 5 alloted slots, but rank you 9th! Now, doesn't it matter if person 6,7, and 8 did rank them number one? Either I have low self esteem or you guys are very confident! I know Ob/Gyn is easier to get into these days, but if you want to get into the top programs, then I would think you would understand that they are going to go further down their list then the alloted number of slots! Maybe I'm wrong, take your chances, tell me what happens after the Match! I wish you all your first choices and good luck. I myself got into a great program that I love, rank your favorite top and hope for the best!

 

[obg2005]

ekmo:
You don't understand my point at all. Read my other post again. In your original message you were talking about a case were they put you on the alloted number of spots, that is why my post started with that premise. Nobody here has said that all of us are going to be ranked in the number of alloted spots, so I don't know what you are talking about. OF COURSE it does matter how they ranked you IF you are NOT in the alloted number of spots. My point was that IF you were in their alloted number of spots, it didn't matter how high you were in the list, as long as you were in the alloted number of spots. I never said that I was confident that that was going to be my case.

 

[cbc]

Ekmo. Think about your created scenario more:

Of course if the program wants "a," they will put "a" ahead, regardless of how "a" or "b" ranks them. Whether they know "b" is going to put them #1 or #200 will not change the fact that they want "a" more and will rank them higher. If they want "b," they will rank "b" first regardless of whether "b" ranks them high or low, or "a" ranks them high or low.

If you know a guy is committed to you as #1, and you like that guy, you will rank them high regardless. You do not want to take the risk of ranking another person that you don't want as much to be ahead, because that person might also rank you high. If that's the case, you will get the other person instead of the guy you really wanted. And what's the point of ranking this person higher if you don't really want this person as much in the first place. The best bet is to rank the guy you want more higher, not the other person you don't really want. If you exercise your style of practice, you can potentially have a bunch of people you don't really want in your program and they don't really want you either, instead of having the guy you really wanted and the guy who really wanted you. That is the point of the "match."

I'm not trying to play devils advocate, but what if I'm a program and I want applicant "a" a little more then "b", and I know that "b" is going to put me number one. Wouldn't I put "a" first, and put "b" after "a" since that is my first choice and I know that I can count on "b" ranking me higher? I understand everyone's point but this seems to common sense to me! It's a basic principle in life: A bird in the hand, is better then two in the bush! If you know the guy is commited to you as number one, your safe with putting them lower. Why would a program rank you higher just cause you rank them higher (I agree if you like them they might like you more), all they care is they get the top people they believe are the top appicants for their program. Who cares if your ranked 1 or 50. If you get in, your in!

 

[kas23]

Ekmo. Think about your created scenario more:

Of course if the program wants "a," they will put "a" ahead, regardless of how "a" or "b" ranks them. Whether they know "b" is going to put them #1 or #200 will not change the fact that they want "a" more and will rank them higher. If they want "b," they will rank "b" first regardless of whether "b" ranks them high or low, or "a" ranks them high or low.

If you know a guy is committed to you as #1, and you like that guy, you will rank them high regardless. You do not want to take the risk of ranking another person that you don't want as much to be ahead, because that person might also rank you high. If that's the case, you will get the other person instead of the guy you really wanted. And what's the point of ranking this person higher if you don't really want this person as much in the first place. The best bet is to rank the guy you want more higher, not the other person you don't really want. If you exercise your style of practice, you can potentially have a bunch of people you don't really want in your program and they don't really want you either, instead of having the guy you really wanted and the guy who really wanted you. That is the point of the "match."

Well put!...finally. I hope this puts an end to all the "...well, if you really like a program, don't let them know, because then they will rank you lower because you are a sure bet..." garbage. What do you people think this is, high school dating?

 

[ekmo]

Well put!...finally. I hope this puts an end to all the "...well, if you really like a program, don't let them know, because then they will rank you lower because you are a sure bet..." garbage. What do you people think this is, high school dating?

Maybe it is high school dating. But one thing life will teach you is: Life Isn't Fair!

I made it into my top program which is a major program. Albeit scores and 4th year rotations helped. I know it worked for me, and that's all I can do is give you my experience and outcome! My friend did the same thing and also got into a major program: (Anesthesia) Stanford. I could be wrong, tell me after the match if it is "high school dating".