EMDR and DoD/VA PTSD Clinical Practice Guidelines

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cara susanna

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Hi all,

I've been hearing that EMDR doesn't have much research support for treating combat-related PTSD, and the studies I've found seem to support that (like https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/21635781.2013.827088). So, now I'm wondering, does anyone know why the DoD/VA 2017 CPG included EMDR as a frontline psychotherapy for PTSD, alongside PE and CPT? I looked at the guidelines and the studies they referenced in support of EMDR were not with combat veterans.

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My guess is it is the bubble gum flavoring to get some Veterans to tolerate a standardized PTSD treatment.
 
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There is a segment of VA providers that really believe in the stuff. At the end of the day, while the eye movement is junk it does accomplish the exposure portion needed for treatment. So, I will agree with @Shiori that if it gets people in and they do the work than that is a win. Not that I suggest training in it.
 
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Hi all,

I've been hearing that EMDR doesn't have much research support for treating combat-related PTSD, and the studies I've found seem to support that (like https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/21635781.2013.827088). So, now I'm wondering, does anyone know why the DoD/VA 2017 CPG included EMDR as a frontline psychotherapy for PTSD, alongside PE and CPT? I looked at the guidelines and the studies they referenced in support of EMDR were not with combat veterans.
I would imagine that it was, in the end, a political decision exercised under a sort of 'ends justifies the means' utilitarian reasoning process. Some people high up in the food chain probably said something like, "We need to offer and get 'credit' for as many 'evidence-based therapies' as possible (and take credit for implementing them). If some veterans want to try EMDR (or prefer it to CPT/PE), then we need that to 'count.'

I have always found it amazing how few people actually read those expert consensus guidelines. The most recent ones for PTSD (2017?) clearly state that group psychotherapy for PTSD (yes, even including protocols like CPT delivered in group format) are clearly inferior in efficacy (according to the research database) to individually administered CPT (or any other treatment option) when you look at the literature as a whole. In the FULL guidelines (not the clinician summary), they even go so far as to explicitly state, in plain language, that group psychotherapy is only better than NO TREATMENT AT ALL and should NOT be used to attempt to deal with the problem of 'not having enough therapists to go around to treat all the PTSD cases individually.' It says this in black and white and unambiguously. Nonetheless, at our facility (and I'd wager 98% of all VA facilities) there is this irrational push to do as many groups as possible, even when there are plenty of psychologists to administer individual therapy. If we truly were adhering to 'evidence-based psychotherapy' then we would NEVER choose group over individual. Now, sure, if a veteran (for whatever reason) clearly states a preference for group over individual, then I guess 'shared decisionmaking' kicks in but--even then--I would argue that the ethical psychotherapist is duty bound (in the spirit of TRUE informed consent) to share what the guidelines say about the inferiority of group psychotherapy for PTSD with the veteran so she/he can at least make an informed choice according to the, you k now, ACTUAL research evidence. By the way, it's not just the VA/DoD treatment guidelines from 2017 that says this...the most recent version of the Handbook of PTSD has a chapter on 'Group Therapy' and even they explicitly flat out state that group is inferior to individual therapy according to the research base.

And, just to earn extra 'I'm-a-cynical-VA-therapist' points, I will hasten to add that any veteran who takes the initiative to express a clear preference for group therapy over individual therapy immediately makes me suspicious about why in the world would they would prefer group. I mean, I know that there may be legit reasons like wanting the support of their comrades in arms who are dealing with the same issues (fair enough) but I immediately think that maybe they prefer group because either a) it allows them to 'hide in the crowd' and not have the spotlight directed continuously on them throughout the sessions and/or b) they can find allies in the room who will tend to try to steer the discussion toward the un-treatability of PTSD ('nobody ever recovers, I'll be like this for life'), the unfairness of the service-connection process, and their need to increase their service connected percentages.
 
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I find that a flawed set of clinical guidelines, which can later be updated, is better than no guidelines. Or, at least, a big leap for the field compared to no guidelines. Now, we just need to reinforce adherence to guidelines (and not reward non-adherence).
 
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There is a segment of VA providers that really believe in the stuff. At the end of the day, while the eye movement is junk it does accomplish the exposure portion needed for treatment. So, I will agree with @Shiori that if it gets people in and they do the work than that is a win. Not that I suggest training in it.

I agree. Not ideal, but close enough I guess if nothing else. I feel it also allows some providers, mostly mid levels, to feel more distanced from the "real work" and much more comfortable doing it. Some providers love their 'tools' and shiny objects or scripts. Make things easier on both parties, people keep coming back, win-win, and in the community, if people keep coming back, $$$, so win-win-win.
 
I find that a flawed set of clinical guidelines, which can later be updated, is better than no guidelines. Or, at least, a big leap for the field compared to no guidelines. Now, we just need to reinforce adherence to guidelines (and not reward non-adherence).
I think they're currently finalizing the new VA/DoD Expert Consensus Guidelines as we speak...I'll be really interested to see what--if anything--they've updated substantively. It'll be interesting. They'd better not (they won't) endorse 'service dogs' and 'emotional support dogs.' If anyone read the specifics of the expensive boondoggle service dog study they completed (but, as far as I am aware have YET to publish (it's awful)).
 
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I think they're currently finalizing the new VA/DoD Expert Consensus Guidelines as we speak...I'll be really interested to see what--if anything--they've updated substantively. It'll be interesting. They'd better not (they won't) endorse 'service dogs' and 'emotional support dogs.' If anyone read the specifics of the expensive boondoggle service dog study they completed (but, as far as I am aware have YET to publish (it's awful)).
Yeah, from what I remember, the service dog study was pretty bad and seemed basically setup so that it was guaranteed to find a "therapeutic effect."
 
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Yeah, from what I remember, the service dog study was pretty bad and seemed basically setup so that it was guaranteed to find a "therapeutic effect."
Here were the two MAJOR (and I mean MAJOR flaws in design--and there is no excuse because they had YEARS?/DECADES? and plenty of funds to plan and execute it):

1) there was no 'no-dog' condition. There were only two 'arms' of the study. a) let's give veterans a 'service dog' b) let's give veterans an 'emotional support dog.' There was no arm where they just did 'treatment as usual' or 'treatment with an already established EBP. And, if you read the manuscript, the 'rationale' they gave was utterly laughable. They claimed that it would be 'unethical' to not offer a dog as 'treatment' (mind you, they admitted in the introduction that it was an experimental 'treatment.' They could have easily had an actual (EBP) established treatment arm with some form of established EBP (CPT/PE) as a comparison group. They could have easily had an arm where they simply delayed giving them the dog for several weeks. What they did was give people either a service dog (trained to do hypothetically useful 'tasks') or an 'emotional support dog' (basically, a companion animal or pet). The basic findings were that veterans, over time, on average, in both groups 'improved' on their symptoms to a very mild/moderate degree over the course of the study (a few months? I can't remember) but nowhere near the degree of improvement generally observed when people do an EBP protocol or take medication. Which gets to the second godawful critique...

2) Not only did they not CONTROL factors such as, gee, are they actually doing an EBP before or during the course of the 'doggie' treatment?...they didn't even TRACK, or take a peek at CPRS to see what other treatments they were engaged in at the time of the study. That's right, as I read the manuscript (and I think they even tepidly address this 'limitation' in their discussion section)...we don't even know what--if any--medication or psychotherapy treatments the participants were engaged in while 'getting' the 'doggie' intervention. People could have been doing anything. Individual, group, CBT, EMDR, SSRI's, whatever. We just don't know and they didn't bother to look. Inexcusable.

My own personal theory is that the bigwigs were terrified at the possibility of Congress passing the PAWS act mandating service dogs for all vets with mental health disorders. Now, from what I've seen, the cost to train a service dog is in the TENS of THOUSANDS of dollars...like a price tag of 20k -40k or so PER VETERAN. Comparatively, providing veterans with an 'emotional support dog' would be the equivalent of hooking them up with a pet (considerably cheaper). So the clever folks at VA designed the study that would provide evidence of 'equivalence' between the 'efficacy' of service dogs and emotional support dogs so when PAWS is made into law, they could say, 'hyuck, hyuck, lookie here...we here at VA have 'evidence' of equivalence between the two and, here at VA, hyuck hyuck, we do 'the evidence-based medicine...yesiree.'

What truly needs to happen (if people are really interested in if service dogs 'work' or not) is that individual components (e.g., 'my puppy wakes me up from my nightmares and that 'helps') need to be independently and rigorously evaluated as to whether they help or hurt. For example, there's plenty of reason to believe that having a dog wake you up during all your nightmares would actually further FRAGMENT your sleep and even result in REM sleep deprivation and you could have MORE and more severe nightmares as a result and worse PTSD symptoms and quality of life. We simply don't know. It hasn't been tested empirically in well-designed research and with reference to the basic and clinical scientific literature. But because of the 'aaaaw...isn't that CUTE...isn't that PRECIOUS!' (the idea of your puppy waking you up and 'rescuing' you out of your nightmares) factor, it passes as a compelling argument because it is consonant with the cultural narrative of infantalizing adults in our society.

True scientists know that the strongest research designs are based on the principle of 'strong inference' whereby the study design is set up in such a way to pit two competing theories against one another and--no matter what the actual empirical results of the study are--there will be evidence that will be relatively more favorable to theory A or theory B at the end of the study. This study appeared to be designed to be 'weak' and to, if anything, only 'demonstrate' 'equivalence' (they are equivalently useless...or barely useful) between the 'interventions.'
 
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I have said this (at least to myself) many times: the VA will have to force me to "prescribe" or recommend service animals or ESAs for PTSD. And by that I mean, like, threaten to fire me.

Also, I agree that if it comes down to EMDR vs. like ART or brainspotting or any of the other garbage therapies we see, I will recommend EMDR. I'm just wondering if I'm mistaken about the effectiveness of EMDR for combat PTSD or if there's another explanation.
 
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Sadly, politics and funding have much more of an effect on treatment than should be tolerable, but welcome to the Government. That dog study sounds ridiculous!! I had heard they were doing some sort of study, but that study design is laughable.

As for EMDR, I'm of a similar mind as @cara susanna. I will document the shortcomings but still acknowledge the exposure component. I also write a sentence or two about the problems with supporting pseudoscience and then I recommend the appropriate treatment options. If something like "brainspotting" is being recommended, I trash it accordingly.
 
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Sadly, politics and funding have much more of an effect on treatment than should be tolerable, but welcome to the Government. That dog study sounds ridiculous!! I had heard they were doing some sort of study, but that study design is laughable.

As for EMDR, I'm of a similar mind as @cara susanna. I will document the shortcomings but still acknowledge the exposure component. I also write a sentence or two about the problems with supporting pseudoscience and then I recommend the appropriate treatment options. If something like "brainspotting" is being recommended, I trash it accordingly.
As far as I am aware, to date, they can't even get the thing published.

Edit: that's not fair for me to say since I don't know if they've even submitted it to any journals yet or not, they may still be working on it.

Here's the link to the unpublished manuscript on the official VA website if anyone wants to take a look:


As far as I know it hasn't been published but the last time I really looked for it (e.g., searching article databases) was a few months ago. I mean...it will be published somewhere eventually but I'd be really disappointed if it were published in a prestigious journal (though I may not be surprised).
 
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I have said this (at least to myself) many times: the VA will have to force me to "prescribe" or recommend service animals or ESAs for PTSD. And by that I mean, like, threaten to fire me.

Also, I agree that if it comes down to EMDR vs. like ART or brainspotting or any of the other garbage therapies we see, I will recommend EMDR. I'm just wondering if I'm mistaken about the effectiveness of EMDR for combat PTSD or if there's another explanation.

We shouldn't need to write letters for a service dog if they have a service connection and I am not writing ESA letters.
 
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We shouldn't need to write letters for a service dog if they have a service connection and I am not writing ESA letters

I am not sure how much I'd have to be paid to write ESA letters. But, I know it's a hell of a lot higher than they are paying the current hacks to write them.
 
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As far as I am aware, to date, they can't even get the thing published.

Edit: that's not fair for me to say since I don't know if they've even submitted it to any journals yet or not, they may still be working on it.

Here's the link to the unpublished manuscript on the official VA website if anyone wants to take a look:


As far as I know it hasn't been published but the last time I really looked for it (e.g., searching article databases) was a few months ago. I mean...it will be published somewhere eventually but I'd be really disappointed if it were published in a prestigious journal (though I may not be surprised).

They need a waitlist and a pet dog condition.
 
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Speaking of EMDR, any thoughts on this study? Thought the results were very surprising, especially about EMDR and PE


I'd have to look at the actual studies included in the meta. I'm fairly skeptical of meta-analyses in general given how many don't do enough to combat the GIGO issue.
 
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Took a very quick glance. They don't seem to present study quality statistics broken down by treatment type, unless I missed it. I eyeballed the study list instead and EMDR definitely had a disproportionate percentage of tiny N projects (many with Ns in the single digits or teens comparing EMDR to no treatment controls). I'm accordingly very skeptical this tells us anything besides EMDR proponents being bad scientists, on average.
 
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I'd have to look at the actual studies included in the meta. I'm fairly skeptical of meta-analyses in general given how many don't do enough to combat the GIGO issue.
But but... what about the Tolin criteria? Meta analysis solves it all. Nevermind the dismantling studies that pull apart mechanisms of EMDR, look at those hedge's gs!
 
But but... what about the Tolin criteria? Meta analysis solves it all. Nevermind the dismantling studies that pull apart mechanisms of EMDR, look at those hedge's gs!

Yeah, I somewhat agree with another poster's sentiment that EMDR is kind of the bubblegum flavoring added to get people to do exposure. But, that'd be more palatable if they weren't lying to patients about what the treatment was. Or if the Cult of EMDR wasn't so fervent in their disparagement of PE/CPT in the process.
 
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It is definitely hard to tolerate EMDR because of the rabid fans. My clients will just have to tolerate bland ol' CPT or PE. My sparkling personality is the bubblegum flavoring.
 
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