Emotional support animals

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And what liability would that be?

If I am ever attacked by an "emotional support" animal, you can bet your ass I am suing any and everyone who is involved, patient, letter-writing provider, dog breeder, etc. If nothing but just for the principal of the bad science behind the enterprise.

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I would highly recommend that everyone here inform themselves as to the differences between the laws and requirements governing flights vs. housing vs. public areas. You are risking liability. There is a difference in how these letters are drafted.

Frankly, many of you clearly don't know the differences.

Many of the physicians here are used to appending their signature and the magical "MD" initials to a large volume of garbage forms and bits of paper demanded by various institutions. This does not promote a keen interest in details of paperwork or put one in a frame of mind conducive to appreciating fine legal distinctions.
 
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If I am ever attacked by an "emotional support" animal, you can bet your ass I am suing any and everyone who is involved, patient, letter-writing provider, dog breeder, etc. If nothing but just for the principal of the bad science behind the enterprise.

Well sure, you can be named in a suit for anything, but I am exceedingly skeptical that a plaintiff would prevail in that kind of action against you as a healthcare provider.
 
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Well sure, you can be named in a suit for anything, but I am exceedingly skeptical that a plaintiff would prevail in that kind of action against you as a healthcare provider.

Oh, I bet more than a few liability insurances would prefer to just settle such cases rather than fight them. I've seen them settle cases with less merit.
 
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I love my emotional support cat. I would not be able to cope without him.

Your cat sent me a PM:
His new shirt doesn't smell of me
I could pee on that
He's gone and left his laptop open
I could pee on that
His new girlfriend just pushed my head away
I could pee on her
He's ignoring me ignoring him
I could pee everywhere
Now he has me on his lap
I could pee on this
I could pee on this​
*Adapted (to my presumption of your gender) from "I Could Pee on This (and other poems by cats)"

My mother in law got her dog registered as a service animal solely for the purpose of being able to take him anywhere she wants. She's not excessive about it, but neither does she seem conflicted about it in the least. I could pee on her.
 
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Well sure, you can be named in a suit for anything, but I am exceedingly skeptical that a plaintiff would prevail in that kind of action against you as a healthcare provider.
I think a psychologist would be at greater risk in some ways than a psychiatrist because of our published guidelines not being followed. I actually would worry more about a board complaint than a lawsuit. If I were to follow the guidelines, then it would be a several thousand dollar evaluation which they are clearly not going to want to pay. Instead, I just tell patients I can't do it and then refer them to their medical provider.
 
And what liability would that be?

1) Emotional support dog bites passenger. Injured party sues everyone. Because of the ACCA requirements, it is literally impossible for a provider to not be negligent.

"Dr. Nick, you wrote a letter dated 1/8/2017 stating that your patient required an emotional support animal for Unspecified Anxiety Disorder, correct? Would it be accurate to say that if you hadn't wrote the letter, that the pt's dog would not have been allowed on flight 12312? No? But you;d agree that your work had something to do with the dog being there, right? Put a percent on it. To the best of your knowledge, wasn't my client bitten on the face by your patient's ESA? okay. Can you read the reconstructive surgery notes in front of you? Now your letter says that the ESA is needed to help with his/her psychiatric disorder, correct? Can you cite any literature that shows that an ESA helps with Unspecified Anxiety Disorder? No? Is there an FDA literature or approval for this animal for these purposes? Dr., isn't it true that Unspecified Anxiety Disorder is a new diagnosis found in the DSM5? okay. Now in general, you would agree that it is prudent to read about something before you practice in that area correct? Dr. Can you read the ACCA's requirements for the letters? Can you show me anywhere on this page where the DSM5 is mentioned? No? How many times did you read this law before you wrote the letter? Did you consult an attorney? No? So would it be fair to say that you wrote a letter without an effort to familiarize yourself with the law? Or would be it be fair to say you used an outdated method that is outside the community standard of care to diagnose the patient? Can you read the highlighted definitions of negligence and proximate cause in Black's Law Dictionary?"

2) Patient tries to use your letter to get their ESA on a flight. You don't use the correct standards. Pt is allowed to either leave their ESA at the airport or miss their flight. Pt sues you for not knowing the relevant standards.
 
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1) Emotional support dog bites passenger. Injured party sues everyone. Because of the ACCA requirements, it is literally impossible for a provider to not be negligent.

"Dr. Nick, you wrote a letter dated 1/8/2017 stating that your patient required an emotional support animal for Unspecified Anxiety Disorder, correct? Would it be accurate to say that if you hadn't wrote the letter, that the pt's dog would not have been allowed on flight 12312? No? But you;d agree that your work had something to do with the dog being there, right? Put a percent on it. To the best of your knowledge, wasn't my client bitten on the face by your patient's ESA? okay. Can you read the reconstructive surgery notes in front of you? Now your letter says that the ESA is needed to help with his/her psychiatric disorder, correct? Can you cite any literature that shows that an ESA helps with Unspecified Anxiety Disorder? No? Is there an FDA literature or approval for this animal for these purposes? Dr., isn't it true that Unspecified Anxiety Disorder is a new diagnosis found in the DSM5? okay. Now in general, you would agree that it is prudent to read about something before you practice in that area correct? Dr. Can you read the ACCA's requirements for the letters? Can you show me anywhere on this page where the DSM5 is mentioned? No? How many times did you read this law before you wrote the letter? Did you consult an attorney? No? So would it be fair to say that you wrote a letter without an effort to familiarize yourself with the law? Or would be it be fair to say you used an outdated method that is outside the community standard of care to diagnose the patient? Can you read the highlighted definitions of negligence and proximate cause in Black's Law Dictionary?"

For malpractice cases, the negligence has to be the proximate cause of the damage. I'm not sure if there would be the same requirement in this hypothetical.

2) Patient tries to use your letter to get their ESA on a flight. You don't use the correct standards. Pt is allowed to either leave their ESA at the airport or miss their flight. Pt sues you for not knowing the relevant standards.

Quite probably you would be at fault. Would there be enough damages here to try and collect on them?
 
its a bargain. i used to charge $140 with no letter guaranteed. it may be unethical to charge for the letter, but you could charge to evaluate/review whether someone met criteria to qualify for an emotional support animal.

How do you evaluate if someone meet criteria for emotional support animal? Any good source?
 
My big question for this issue would be that if their condition were so debilitating that they required constant support of some form, could they not just get their animal registered as a service animal for disability? I'm assuming that would carry far more weight than the whole ESA label and would circumvent a lot of the liability of writing letters for them.

I think a psychologist would be at greater risk in some ways than a psychiatrist because of our published guidelines not being followed. I actually would worry more about a board complaint than a lawsuit. If I were to follow the guidelines, then it would be a several thousand dollar evaluation which they are clearly not going to want to pay. Instead, I just tell patients I can't do it and then refer them to their medical provider.

Do you have a link to the guidelines that we could look at? Also, which evaluations are you referring to which would cost thousands of dollars? I'm curious as to what the guidelines for this are as well as the extent that one would have to go through to best protect themselves from liability in such cases.
 
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My big question for this issue would be that if their condition were so debilitating that they required constant support of some form, could they not just get their animal registered as a service animal for disability? I'm assuming that would carry far more weight than the whole ESA label and would circumvent a lot of the liability of writing letters for them.



Do you have a link to the guidelines that we could look at? Also, which evaluations are you referring to which would cost thousands of dollars? I'm curious as to what the guidelines for this are as well as the extent that one would have to go through to best protect themselves from liability in such cases.
I don't know if it quite qualifies as an official guideline, but this was what was published in our APA's magazine.
Is that a pet or therapeutic aid?
 
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What about that woman who was told to flush her emotional support hamster down the toilet? The legal system doesn't have to be logical to be lucrative to some.

She should sue her therapist for refusing to write her a letter.
 
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I travel good deal but I had never seen this as a therapy animal that was at the airport.....Would this cost the same for the therapy note as a dog?
 

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I travel good deal but I had never seen this as a therapy animal that was at the airport.....Would this cost the same for the therapy note as a dog?

That is a service animal, not an ESA. The ADA covers everywhere, but only allows for dogs and mini-horses. The ACCA which is resticted to air carrier travel, allows for anything, including exotics. However, the ACCA allows for the air carrier to exert their own discretion in allowing exotics on board. The FHA allows for any animal, but only applies to certain types of housing.
 
Adult ADHD, support pets, sexual addiction... we need to be more concerned about embarrassing ourselves. If these didn't make money we wouldn't be talking about them. I suggest a more liberal use of the Bull S#@t litmus test.
 
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I don't know if it quite qualifies as an official guideline, but this was what was published in our APA's magazine.
Is that a pet or therapeutic aid?

I have recently been asked to write one of these letters for a patient, and I informed her that I would need to learn more about it before doing so. I did some googling on this topic and found the same article. I was going to share the link but I see you beat me to it. I thought I'd just share a few highlights which I took away from the article:
(*Note: While the article was written for psychologists, I think the same advice would apply equally to psychiatrists.)

"... psychologists shouldn't write such letters cavalierly, say experts who have examined the issue. Because writing such letters could damage the therapeutic relationship, psychologists shouldn't write them for their own patients. And even forensic psychologists should tread carefully."

"In addition to concerns about fraud, there's also not much research to back the claim that emotional support animals help people more than traditional pets..."

"... there are no standards for evaluating emotional support animals—a problem if, say, an animal in no-pets housing bites a child and the case winds up in court."

"More important, writing a letter means mixing clinical and forensic roles, which is ethically impermissible."

"If you're playing that forensic role, take the task very seriously... These letters are formal certifications of psychological disability... By writing such a letter, you're stating that the person needing an emotional support animal has such a disability and that the presence of the animal addresses that disability."
Since I have had no training in the evaluation of one's need for an emotional support animal, I personally feel unqualified to do this for patients, and I plan to refer them to someone else for such a letter. However, I am wondering if any forensically-trained psychiatrists/psychologists could weigh in on this. Have any of you been referred a patient for the sole purpose of writing an ESA letter? If I were to refer my patients to a forensic specialist, I'm afraid they'd have to travel a few hours away to see one, but I would not feel comfortable addressing this issue on my own.
 
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I play the forensic role.

The fee for a forensic psychiatrist to evaluate the patient, review records, and write a report or letter will likely be much more than the cost of chartering a private jet.
 
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I play the forensic role.

The fee for a forensic psychiatrist to evaluate the patient, review records, and write a report or letter will likely be much more than the cost of chartering a private jet.
Thanks for your input. I found another article from a couple of years ago (Examining Emotional Support Animals and Role Conflicts in Professional Psychology), which also cautions against playing both the clinical and forensic roles, and instead recommends having these evaluations done by a neutral third party.

If referring patients to a forensic specialist is likely to be cost-prohibitive, I imagine that would at least weed out all of the fakers who just want to take their pet everywhere, but I wonder if it would also be appropriate to refer them to any non-treating psychologist or psychiatrist, as long as the provider is comfortable with providing such an evaluation.
 
I would, without making any sort of representation, supply a list of 3 to 5 forensic folk in your area and let the patient choose.

Rather than fly with the ESA, maybe drive with it? ♫ See the USA in your Chevrolet ♫










 
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I play the forensic role.

The fee for a forensic psychiatrist to evaluate the patient, review records, and write a report or letter will likely be much more than the cost of chartering a private jet.

You know chartering runs around $5k/hr, right?

Because, if you do I would really like to learn more about your billing practices.
 
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A charter can be had for 2k per hour. Depends on what you want in terms of aircraft size.

I have a retainer and charge per hour plus expenses portal 2 portal.
 
How much you charge is up to you and how much you want to write that letter.
I was getting more and more of these patients. Then I started charging.
Initially it was 25 and it barely decreased it.
Then I went to 50 and it stabilized the increase.
Now I charge 125 and I don't get people asking me for the forms anymore (which is what I prefer).

ESAs are a scam.
There is absolutely no way to tell if it actually works. There is no training for these animals and there is very little to no legit data that shows that they are effective/better than placebo. Its simply a way to completely abuse the rights of others.
You don't have to pay the pet fee if you are a renter, get to take your pet for free on the plane.
However, then we get taxed as the public because these costs are deferred.
It isn't actually free, someone else just has to pay. It isn't going to be the corporations.
Oh and if you have an allergy to the pet, tough cookie.
 
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How much you charge is up to you and how much you want to write that letter.
I was getting more and more of these patients. Then I started charging.
Initially it was 25 and it barely decreased it.
Then I went to 50 and it stabilized the increase.
Now I charge 125 and I don't get people asking me for the forms anymore (which is what I prefer).

ESAs are a scam.
There is absolutely no way to tell if it actually works. There is no training for these animals and there is very little to no legit data that shows that they are effective/better than placebo. Its simply a way to completely abuse the rights of others.
You don't have to pay the pet fee if you are a renter, get to take your pet for free on the plane.
However, then we get taxed as the public because these costs are deferred.
It isn't actually free, someone else just has to pay. It isn't going to be the corporations.
Oh and if you have an allergy to the pet, tough cookie.

Agree 100% but have to wonder why you continue to write those letters.
 
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Emotional support animal offers companionship to individuals and helps them cope with their disorders and treatments. With an official ESA letter, you may get right to keep your ESA with you and enjoy their company. You get a companion for everything with having an Emotional support animal.
It’s a bogus way to force your pet on others who don’t want to deal with it
 
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Have you all seen this?


I thought about getting one. I heard the mechanical noises can be a little offputting.
 
Emotional support animal offers companionship to individuals and helps them cope with their disorders and treatments. With an official ESA letter, you may get right to keep your ESA with you and enjoy their company. You get a companion for everything with having an Emotional support animal.

Yep. And to nuisance the rest of us by dragging animals that don't belong in public so you can feel "comforted." Its childish.
 
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Yep. And to nuisance the rest of us by dragging animals that don't belong in public so you can feel "comforted." Its childish.

Point of order: ESAs have zero standing in public areas. That term ONLY applies to specific housing options. See an ESA at a hospital, shopping mall, etc? That animal has zero standing there.
 
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You are risking liability.

I don’t know much about it, do you have links to the cases where psychiatrists have been successfully sued for emotional support animal letters?
 
I don’t know much about it, do you have links to the cases where psychiatrists have been successfully sued for emotional support animal letters?

That's completely reasonable and this is speculative on my part. To date and to my knowledge, there have not been any cases that have gone through trial with that.

The generic issues are:

1) In the case of air travel, you are required to use the DSM-IV. Not even TR. The use of outdated diagnostic criteria would be problematic to overcome practiving outside the standards of care, if a suit was filed.

2) In air travel over 8 hrs, the passenger must provide documentation that the animal will not need to relieve itself. But they don't accept biologists' letters. So, its on you. I don't know crap about how often a turkey needs to poop.

3) Because there is significant interactions with the legal system (i.e., ADA), there are significant difficulties in prescribing ESAs. This includes AMA medical ethics, AAPLS stuff, etc.

4) Without boring people with the details, our major malpractice insurance in psychology advises us to not do it.

It seems silly, but the Portland mauling from a service animal resulted in a 7 figure suit against the airport of all things. Because they were reportedly negligent in not seeing the dog wasn't in a carrier.
 
It seems silly, but the Portland mauling from a service animal resulted in a 7 figure suit against the airport of all things. Because they were reportedly negligent in not seeing the dog wasn't in a carrier.
From what I can tell, the psychiatrist wasn't sued, so I'm not sure if there really is liability.

Regardless (and to the thread in general not as a response to this post), just because pets make people feel good doesn't mean doctors should be recommending them even when it infringes on the rights of others. Lots of things can make patients with depression and anxiety feel better (money, free vacation, cake) but we don't write letters forcing other entities to provide these. Why should pets be any different?
 
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From what I can tell, the psychiatrist wasn't sued, so I'm not sure if there really is liability.

Regardless (and to the thread in general not as a response to this post), just because pets make people feel good doesn't mean doctors should be recommending them even when it infringes on the rights of others. Lots of things can make patients with depression and anxiety feel better (money, free vacation, cake) but we don't write letters forcing other entities to provide these. Why should pets be any different?


Yeah, it is completely speculative both on my part and in psychology CEs. The air carriage requires you to deviate from the professional standards of care (i.e., DSM-IV). There's also issues with psychiatrists opining about disability, based upon my read of your professional ethics. There's issues in psychology about ESAs, whereby if an ESA is part of a treatment plan, then the use of said ESA should be temporary until the patient improves. My concern is that the dog bite suits I've seen have weirdly high complaint numbers, and looking for who has the deepest pockets is a common part of lawsuits.

From a behavioral point: there's a difference between getting better and feeling better. An alcohol dependent person feels better upon administration of alcohol. That doesn't mean administration is helping them in the long run.
 
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Old AMA thread about a student with a service dog for PTSD. Still seems like avoidance behavior to me.
 
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I would highly recommend that everyone here inform themselves as to the differences between the laws and requirements governing flights vs. housing vs. public areas. You are risking liability. There is a difference in how these letters are drafted.

Frankly, many of you clearly don't know the differences.
Could you please elaborate more about differences and how it is risking liability? Thank you
 
Could you please elaborate more about differences and how it is risking liability? Thank you

A. Three pertinent laws

1) ADA- this covers "service animals". Service animals can ONLY be dogs or minihorses. They must be trained for a specific task relevant to the disability. "providing comfort" has been ruled as not a trained task. Service animals can go almost anywhere, so long as they are not disruptive (e.g., you can ask them to leave if they are biting your staff, and you can say no to a service animal in the operating theater). Other patient allergies cannot be used to refuse service animals.

2) Fair Housing Act- this law covers many, but not all multi family housing. The relevant term in this law is "emotional support animals". Emotional support animals can really be anything, aside from super huge animals. A mental health professional, must write a letter stating diagnosis and that the patient needs an emotional support animal. So when you see a person with a service kangaroo, you already know it's BS and you don't have to accommodate it being in your place of business. People get these things confused.

3) The non-discrimination subsection of the Aeronautics federal laws- this law covers air travel. The relevant terms here are "emotional support animal" or "psychiatric service animal". Pretty much anything can be an emotional support animal here, including exotics. The law does state that the airline can deny exotics, but there are clearly jerks who push the boundaries. The patient must provide a letter from a mental health professional stating the diagnosis IN THE DSM-IV, not the DSM5, or DSM-IV-TR. The patient must also provide documentation that the animal won't "relieve" itself on flights over 8 hrs. But there is challenges to who can do this.

B. Speculative Potential Liabilities.

1) Deviations from standards of care:

a. Disability is inherently a forensic issue. Overall, my read of your medical ethics shows that treating providers should avoid opining about disability. The AMA Ethical Code has mention of this. The American Psychiatric Association has statements about the ethics of this. The American Association of Psychiatry and Law ethics has statements about this. The AMA Guides to Causation has statements about this. Therefore, providing an opinion about disability almost requires the treating provider to deviate from the standards of care. I believe that this could be used in a lawsuit.

b. In Air Carriage, you are required to use the DSM-IV. This is a deviation from the standards of care. Which might be used to sue. Alternatively, if you chose to use the DSM5 and the animal was denied, I believe you could be sued for the cost of the travel expenses.

2) Lack of data.

a. There's simply no significant literature base to support any of this. I wouldn't want to go to court with nothing to back me up.

3) Who has the deepest pockets?

a. Recent dog bite cases are showing a minor trend in the injured party suing the party with the deepest pockets. Imagine the complaint for someone whose face is messed up in a dog bite. You're talking plastics, loss of revenue, etc. Complaints are higher. For example, in the portland airport dog bite case, the plaintiff sued the airport for 7 figures, with only minimal mention of the person with the emotional support dog. That is concerning for any physicians with a malpractice insurance policy.

4) Current litigation. There is a high degree of litigation at the moment regarding this issue. Do you want to be called in about this issue only to have no research to back it up.
 
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b. In Air Carriage, you are required to use the DSM-IV. This is a deviation from the standards of care. Which might be used to sue.
Could you explain this theoretical lawsuit more? You write a letter with a DSM-IV diagnosis which matches most closely with the DSM-5 diagnosis you're using in treatment. Even if I grant that using the DSM-IV in that letter deviates from the standard of care (though if these letters require DSM-IV then that is the standard of care for such a thing), what are the grounds for a lawsuit?
 
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Are psychiatrists really losing malpractice suits over using DSM-IV vs DSM-V? I guess I'm imagining that they can do a somewhat equivalent job with either, and while the DSM-V obviously is supposed to have advantages over IV, I'm still questioning if still using the outdated version is going to bite you in the arse. I'm wondering if you can show that equivalent and appropriate care was still rendered. I don't know how much of a "proof in the pudding" sort of standard applies (ie it made no difference to management or outcome which you used, in which case you might argue standard of care was still applied). Clinicians take different approaches to problem solving all the time, that still doesn't mean appropriate diagnosis and treatment wasn't applied, even if you use outdated guidelines. I don't know at what point it's style points vs actual malpractice.

Lastly, given how the air carriage law was written, one could argue it wasn't updated. I think the intent of the law might apply here, but I'm not an attorney. I imagine one could use DSM-V in its place if they were worried about legal liability, and leave it up to the airline to either accept or reject. I imagine if they reject that would be grounds for them to be sued over the law.
 
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A. Three pertinent laws

1) ADA- this covers "service animals". Service animals can ONLY be dogs or minihorses. They must be trained for a specific task relevant to the disability. "providing comfort" has been ruled as not a trained task. Service animals can go almost anywhere, so long as they are not disruptive (e.g., you can ask them to leave if they are biting your staff, and you can say no to a service animal in the operating theater). Other patient allergies cannot be used to refuse service animals.

2) Fair Housing Act- this law covers many, but not all multi family housing. The relevant term in this law is "emotional support animals". Emotional support animals can really be anything, aside from super huge animals. A mental health professional, must write a letter stating diagnosis and that the patient needs an emotional support animal. So when you see a person with a service kangaroo, you already know it's BS and you don't have to accommodate it being in your place of business. People get these things confused.

3) The non-discrimination subsection of the Aeronautics federal laws- this law covers air travel. The relevant terms here are "emotional support animal" or "psychiatric service animal". Pretty much anything can be an emotional support animal here, including exotics. The law does state that the airline can deny exotics, but there are clearly jerks who push the boundaries. The patient must provide a letter from a mental health professional stating the diagnosis IN THE DSM-IV, not the DSM5, or DSM-IV-TR. The patient must also provide documentation that the animal won't "relieve" itself on flights over 8 hrs. But there is challenges to who can do this.

B. Speculative Potential Liabilities.

1) Deviations from standards of care:

a. Disability is inherently a forensic issue. Overall, my read of your medical ethics shows that treating providers should avoid opining about disability. The AMA Ethical Code has mention of this. The American Psychiatric Association has statements about the ethics of this. The American Association of Psychiatry and Law ethics has statements about this. The AMA Guides to Causation has statements about this. Therefore, providing an opinion about disability almost requires the treating provider to deviate from the standards of care. I believe that this could be used in a lawsuit.

b. In Air Carriage, you are required to use the DSM-IV. This is a deviation from the standards of care. Which might be used to sue. Alternatively, if you chose to use the DSM5 and the animal was denied, I believe you could be sued for the cost of the travel expenses.

2) Lack of data.

a. There's simply no significant literature base to support any of this. I wouldn't want to go to court with nothing to back me up.

3) Who has the deepest pockets?

a. Recent dog bite cases are showing a minor trend in the injured party suing the party with the deepest pockets. Imagine the complaint for someone whose face is messed up in a dog bite. You're talking plastics, loss of revenue, etc. Complaints are higher. For example, in the portland airport dog bite case, the plaintiff sued the airport for 7 figures, with only minimal mention of the person with the emotional support dog. That is concerning for any physicians with a malpractice insurance policy.

4) Current litigation. There is a high degree of litigation at the moment regarding this issue. Do you want to be called in about this issue only to have no research to back it up.
Excellent points. When you put it altogether like that, it doesn't really make sense to write these letters.
 
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FWIW I’ve occasionally written one of these letters for patients. I just write that they are a patient, have X diagnosis and “report utilizing an emotional support animal to cope with symptoms of their illness”. Put it on some fancy letterhead and sign it.

The letter offers no medical opinion except their diagnosis and just records a fact that they reported to me they are using an animal for support. This has worked for every patient I’ve given it to and I don’t see how it could open me to liability as I’m not offering any recommendation nor ordering them to use this animal.

If the interested parties actually read the letter I imagine they probably could reject it, but nobody has seemed to care enough.
 
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B. Speculative Potential Liabilities.

a. Disability is inherently a forensic issue. Overall, my read of your medical ethics shows that treating providers should avoid opining about disability. The AMA Ethical Code has mention of this. The American Psychiatric Association has statements about the ethics of this. The American Association of Psychiatry and Law ethics has statements about this. The AMA Guides to Causation has statements about this. Therefore, providing an opinion about disability almost requires the treating provider to deviate from the standards of care. I believe that this could be used in a lawsuit.
uh wut
 

The poster has a very literalistic interpretation of rules and regulations that leads him to conclusions at significant variance with common practice, cf. the thread where he told us that not having a specific CD-10 code charted for administering a benzo to someone while inpatient so they can get a CT scan is... malpractice? Fraudulent? Some kind of unspecified very bad, in any event.
 
FWIW I’ve occasionally written one of these letters for patients. I just write that they are a patient, have X diagnosis and “report utilizing an emotional support animal to cope with symptoms of their illness”. Put it on some fancy letterhead and sign it.

The letter offers no medical opinion except their diagnosis and just records a fact that they reported to me they are using an animal for support. This has worked for every patient I’ve given it to and I don’t see how it could open me to liability as I’m not offering any recommendation nor ordering them to use this animal.

If the interested parties actually read the letter I imagine they probably could reject it, but nobody has seemed to care enough.
Except you know what the end result is going to be so I'm not sure that would actually protect you.
 
Except you know what the end result is going to be so I'm not sure that would actually protect you.

It just provides extra information of a diagnosis to whoever (landlord, plane,etc) is deciding if the patients animal should be allowed based on their policies. It’s not up to me what they do with that info.
 
The poster has a very literalistic interpretation of rules and regulations that leads him to conclusions at significant variance with common practice, cf. the thread where he told us that not having a specific CD-10 code charted for administering a benzo to someone while inpatient so they can get a CT scan is... malpractice? Fraudulent? Some kind of unspecified very bad, in any event.

You very accurate in my being literal.

You are misrepresenting the benzo thread. I asked what the diagnosis was, and everyone got pissed off at the question.


Page 486 of AMA Guides to Causation is a decent reference.
 
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You very accurate in my being literal.

You are misrepresenting the benzo thread. I asked what the diagnosis was, and everyone got pissed off at the question.



Page 486 of AMA Guides to Causation is a decent reference.

I don't want to resurrect that argument but we tried to tell you the diagnosis in practice is nothing as it is not the case that people in hospitals are actually having all of their prescribes temporary or PRN medications assigned to specific diagnoses. Or rather, if that is happening it is billers who are doing it, not physicians. That did not seem to satisfy you at the time but it is absolutely the truth and the ubiquity of this makes me think concerns about liability are strictly moot.
 
It just provides extra information of a diagnosis to whoever (landlord, plane,etc) is deciding if the patients animal should be allowed based on their policies. It’s not up to me what they do with that info.
Except that you know good and well that a letter like what you described is going to allow that person to take their animal wherever they're trying to take it.

Wording it as you do is a cop out (note: I write notes the exact same way).
 
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Except that you know good and well that a letter like what you described is going to allow that person to take their animal wherever they're trying to take it.

Wording it as you do is a cop out (note: I write notes the exact same way).

I appreciate it for how it reflects inappropriately medicalized issues back onto other institutions and people in society who should really be making decisions about what animals are allowed where...by refusing to take responsibility for saying "no I'm not going to do that."
 
Except that you know good and well that a letter like what you described is going to allow that person to take their animal wherever they're trying to take it.

Wording it as you do is a cop out (note: I write notes the exact same way).
Right, they're looking for the letterhead and the signature. Who cares what was written in the note as long as it's not "I DON'T recommend that this person be allowed to keep their pet in your house."
 
They can, and maybe should, just have a pet. It has benefits. However, taking your pet with you everywhere is indicative of some type of pathology that you are not addressing/treating, IMHO.

As an aside, I have often said I do not feel comfortable violating the rights of one because of the pathology of another. Landlords, for example, bar animals from their personally owned property for a legitimate and understandable reason (usually financial risk). Who the hell am I to overrule their business practices?! I'm not a lawyer. I don't feel comfortable with that kind of power and would not appreciate if someone else did that to me/my business.
They can, and maybe should, just have a pet. It has benefits. However, taking your pet with you everywhere is indicative of some type of pathology that you are not addressing/treating, IMHO.

As an aside, I have often said I do not feel comfortable violating the rights of one because of the pathology of another. Landlords, for example, bar animals from their personally owned property for a legitimate and understandable reason (usually financial risk). Who the hell am I to overrule their business practices?! I'm not a lawyer. I don't feel comfortable with that kind of power and would not appreciate if someone else did that to me/my business.
This posts illustrates the difference between a psychiatrist and psychologist. Doctors are very comfortable with this. We make decisions like this without even thinking about it...workers comp, disability, work notes, PSYCHIATRIC holds. Get off your high horse. Sorry not sorry.
 
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This posts illustrates the difference between a psychiatrist and psychologist. Doctors are very comfortable with this. We make decisions like this without even thinking about it...workers comp, disability, work notes, PSYCHIATRIC holds. Get off your high horse. Sorry not sorry.

If you really feel your MD/DO trumps the rights of millions of private property and business owners so someone can have a living teady bear on someone else's property....that is the difference between the 2 degrees right there. Seems your horse is higher than mine.

And "without thinking about it" is also very problematic-- from both a legal and clinical standpoint. I actually think most MDs ponder the legal, clinical, and societal ramifications of how they use their powers, so I m not sure why you would make such arrogant and dismissive statement?
 
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