Empathy for Cluster B patients

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Rebs28

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I'm a third year medical student planning to go in to psychiatry, currently on my psych rotation. Today while in lecture I shared a case involving cultural barriers in dealing with a patient with mixed Cluster B personality disorder, and I said some rather insensitive things. On reflection, I realized that I am lacking in empathy for this patient.

I am wondering how fellow students, residents, and attendings have developed empathy for patients with Cluster B personality disorders. Was there a book you read? A particular patient that you interacted with?

I talked with the lecturer afterwards and he recommended two books for me:

"Every Day Gets A Little Closer: A Twice-told Therapy" by Dr. Irvin Yalom

"When Boundaries Betray Us: Beyond Illusions of What Is Ethical in Therapy and Life" by Dr. Carter Heyward

What are your thoughts? Do you have story to share?

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I wrote the following back in 2009, and it's still kind of my mantra today:
Borderlines will suck the life out of you as a resident, but when you get some taste of how their lives have been to get them to that...

One night at 2 AM, a social worker in our psych ED called me for that night's borderline-in-distress call. I'll always remember what she said on the phone: "Yeah, she's a Borderline, but she comes by it honestly." The young lady had an unstable mother, was raped by her step-father and step-brother at 12, was using drugs since 14...you get the picture. How the heck does someone learn to deal "normally" with distress with that kind of background? When you can adopt the perspective that you're trying to help these folks take some small step today toward managing life more effectively tomorrow, your interactions with them can be a lot more rewarding for both of you.

So just roll your eyes privately, roll up your sleeves, and try to point them in the right direction to work their way out of their current crisis.

(Post #5 in this thread: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=669569&highlight=honestly)
 
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I like Marsha Linehan's conceptualization of someone with BPD as the emotional equivalent of a third degree burn victim. A normal sensation to us feels absolutely unbearable to them.
 
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I'm a third year medical student planning to go in to psychiatry, currently on my psych rotation. Today while in lecture I shared a case involving cultural barriers in dealing with a patient with mixed Cluster B personality disorder, and I said some rather insensitive things. On reflection, I realized that I am lacking in empathy for this patient.

I am wondering how fellow students, residents, and attendings have developed empathy for patients with Cluster B personality disorders. Was there a book you read? A particular patient that you interacted with?

I talked with the lecturer afterwards and he recommended two books for me:

"Every Day Gets A Little Closer: A Twice-told Therapy" by Dr. Irvin Yalom

"When Boundaries Betray Us: Beyond Illusions of What Is Ethical in Therapy and Life" by Dr. Carter Heyward

What are your thoughts? Do you have story to share?

I think it's easy to have empathy for these patients.....but that empathy doesn't neccessarily mean I have a lot of offer them that will help. I think that's why a lot of people don't like treating this population(not that we don't 'like' them)

Yeah, I can refer them to a dbt group or class or something. But if they make any progress in that, it's not me who led to their progress. I'm certainly not such an *** to take credit for it when i didn't do the work.
 
I'm a third year medical student planning to go in to psychiatry, currently on my psych rotation. Today while in lecture I shared a case involving cultural barriers in dealing with a patient with mixed Cluster B personality disorder, and I said some rather insensitive things. On reflection, I realized that I am lacking in empathy for this patient.

I am wondering how fellow students, residents, and attendings have developed empathy for patients with Cluster B personality disorders. Was there a book you read? A particular patient that you interacted with?

I talked with the lecturer afterwards and he recommended two books for me:

"Every Day Gets A Little Closer: A Twice-told Therapy" by Dr. Irvin Yalom

"When Boundaries Betray Us: Beyond Illusions of What Is Ethical in Therapy and Life" by Dr. Carter Heyward

What are your thoughts? Do you have story to share?

Don't beat yourself up--everyone who has gone into psychiatry has had difficulty relating to a Cluster B patient. It's not just Cluster B. Today I saw a textbook Cluster A patient (schizotypal, right down to the Star Trek t-shirt worn under a trench coat). His problem is hypochondriasis. Cluster A patients are less common but they raise the same question--how easy is it to empathize? I found myself wanting to shake this guy a bit, encourage him, and get him on his way. Seriously I could "empathize" better with a lot of Cluster B patients whose problems usually center around relationships gone awry. However that requires being able to stand back and not be personally insulted by things the patients say. That's something that takes practice and time but if you are trying hard and care about the patient it will come.

Also I would echo OPD's post below. It's important not to get callous. A lot of patients (Cluster B and others, including substance abuse) have had really horrible things happen to them. Sometimes I think "empathy" is a tall order. Maybe you can't truly relate to that person but certainly you would have compassion for someone who's been through what they have. That can often be a good place to start. Then you kind of organize yourself, and decide how you will approach the person, and it helps to have some experience to go on there, which you will gain. Be aware of Cluster B tendencies like splitting, or making suicidal threats, so that if it happens, you aren't caught unawares.
 
I like Marsha Linehan's conceptualization of someone with BPD as the emotional equivalent of a third degree burn victim. A normal sensation to us feels absolutely unbearable to them.
Not to nitpick, but Dr. Linehan probably means a second degree burn victim. Third degree burns aren't as painful since you've charred all the tissue and receptors. The real pain comes from the second degree burns around it.
 
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Not to nitpick, but Dr. Linehan probably means a second degree burn victim. Third degree burns aren't as painful since you've charred all the tissue and receptors. The real pain comes from the second degree burns around it.

Ha... Step 2 material!
 
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Not to nitpick, but Dr. Linehan probably means a second degree burn victim. Third degree burns aren't as painful since you've charred all the tissue and receptors. The real pain comes from the second degree burns around it.

You should tell Dr. Linehan!
 
what percentage of diagnosed borderlines have actually had their terrible developmental histories validated? we know they embellish and fabricate things as adults. Why are their reports of their childhoods exempt from this same suspicion?
 
what percentage of diagnosed borderlines have actually had their terrible developmental histories validated? we know they embellish and fabricate things as adults. Why are their reports of their childhoods exempt from this same suspicion?

Your thinking is going down the wrong path if you intend to become a physician. You don't know "they" fabricate things. The people you are talking about could be any person on the face of this earth, with all the layers of a human being, and you've already developed an imagined community in your mind of who they are: liars you have to be suspicious of. You're creating a world of us vs. them not based on fact.

Lying is not a feature of a person's personality used to diagnose BPD. And that's what BPD is: a diagnosis. It doesn't cause somebody to become "a borderline" in the noun form, as you used it, language which would be harmful to your patients and just isn't pleasant.

Also, while lying isn't a feature of BPD used for its diagnosis, there is a plethora of research showing that childhood sexual abuse, physical abuse, and neglect contribute to BPD.

In the face of that, why glibly assert for no particular reason except to create a dichotomy between good and bad people that a known feature of BPD is lying while simultaneously question whether people diagnosed with BPD are lying about a personal history which is a known cause of BPD?

You can't treat patients if you don't like them. And if you're questioning the integrity of imagined groups of people known to be more likely to have had childhood abuse, I worry about your future patients.
 
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You can't treat patients if you don't like them.

Really, this is not true. It is important to recognize negative counter-transference, and it can be managed in a number of ways. But you can certainly help patients without liking them.
 
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what percentage of diagnosed borderlines have actually had their terrible developmental histories validated? we know they embellish and fabricate things as adults. Why are their reports of their childhoods exempt from this same suspicion?
What percentage of general psych patients embellish and fabricate things? What percentage of non-psych patients?

More importantly, why does it really matter for treatment?

A patient may have had a horrific childhood that causes her to be a person who doesn't trust anyone, thinks no one takes her seriously, hurts herself, lashes out at strangers, and pushes away anyone who ever cared about her.

Or she may have had an okay childhood but has such a fragile make-up that she doesn't trust anyone, thinks no one takes her seriously (and thus exaggerates her childhood events), hurts herself, lashes out at strangers, and pushes away anyone who ever cared about her.

Personally, if I find myself getting very curious about really finding out whether what someone told me is a lie or not, I just ask myself: how does it affect my diagnosis or treatment plan? If it doesn't, I'm doing it for me, not them, and I let it go.

You're going into CAP, right? I'll bet you'll see plenty of young adolescent borderlines that you know have court documented abuse. That $hit rarely develops overnight and doesn't usually come from a vacuum.
 
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What percentage of general psych patients embellish and fabricate things? What percentage of non-psych patients?

More importantly, why does it really matter for treatment?

A patient may have had a horrific childhood that causes her to be a person who doesn't trust anyone, thinks no one takes her seriously, hurts herself, lashes out at strangers, and pushes away anyone who ever cared about her.

Or she may have had an okay childhood but has such a fragile make-up that she doesn't trust anyone, thinks no one takes her seriously (and thus exaggerates her childhood events), hurts herself, lashes out at strangers, and pushes away anyone who ever cared about her.

Personally, if I find myself getting very curious about really finding out whether what someone told me is a lie or not, I just ask myself: how does it affect my diagnosis or treatment plan? If it doesn't, I'm doing it for me, not them, and I let it go.

You're going into CAP, right? I'll bet you'll see plenty of young adolescent borderlines that you know have court documented abuse. That $hit rarely develops overnight and doesn't usually come from a vacuum.

It matters for how one conceptualizes the pathology. It's easy to say, "this is borderline PD and how I treat it". Descriptive psychiatry is boring. Understanding how that stuff forms is infinitely more interesting and why I broach the subject of an accurate developmental history, particularly as nearly all theories of BPD rely on a history of abuse or trauma and tend to dismiss those borderlines without such a history.
 
It matters for how one conceptualizes the pathology. It's easy to say, "this is borderline PD and how I treat it". Descriptive psychiatry is boring. Understanding how that stuff forms is infinitely more interesting and why I broach the subject of an accurate developmental history, particularly as nearly all theories of BPD rely on a history of abuse or trauma and tend to dismiss those borderlines without such a history.
Ah, you confused me. Your post stated that folks with BPD are known embellish and fabricate so you were wondering how many had their developmental histories validated. Your question was about borderlines, not whether or not they had the disease. This makes more sense.

That said, the theories I've read indicate that a perceived history of abuse or trauma is sufficient. And that's likely the reason it's not a requirement for diagnosis. Your threshold for trauma and abuse is going to be very different from someone else's. Particularly with your borderlines.
 
That said, the theories I've read indicate that a perceived history of abuse or trauma is sufficient.
I think Linehan would say it's more of just the reality of an invalidating environment, and a history of trauma or a perceived trauma would be very good examples of invalidating environments. The perceived-as-traumatic would be particularly interesting in its own right, because even as we write that, we're basically invalidating (not in a mean way, we're just trying to think this through) that experience of perceived trauma. Catch-22.
 
If this isn't allowed, please feel free to delete.

Rebs28 - I'm actually a patient who just enjoys listening in on some of the discussions on this board, especially research orientated topics. I was treated for BPD many years ago, and no longer meet the diagnosis. Bearing in mind I can only give my own point of view on the subject, you're welcome to message me with any questions you might have. Believe me, I do know, and understand just how difficult a population we can be to deal with, so if there is anything I can to do help, I'd be more than happy to. :)
 
what percentage of diagnosed borderlines have actually had their terrible developmental histories validated? we know they embellish and fabricate things as adults. Why are their reports of their childhoods exempt from this same suspicion?

I've spent enough time working in bad neighborhoods in Chicago and Detroit. Nothing surprises me anymore.

...and I see these horror stories of abuse/neglect/rape/incest in my anxiety patients way too often. When the Cluster B patients claim them I wouldn't put it past them...
 
I agree with others that both people with bpd and people with other psychiatric disorders (and non-psych pts too) do fabricate and embellish and all that. Manipulation and deception and lying can be found everywhere and in every situation. However, I do also believe that with BPD pts it feels qualitatively different somehow. Whether it's distortion of truth about something present or past, the fact that they are so fragile and that they move from crisis to crisis, makes these distortions carry more weight, more significance. Their vulnerability at every turn brings out the protective instinct in you and so when you finally realize you were deceived (assuming you believed a certain story and theorized it was significant and partly explains some of the symptoms), it's harder to shake it off than when you are deceived by a run of the mill neurotic person or, say, a salesperson. Of course, I'm quite inexperienced in this area but this is my first impression.
 
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I apologize for reviving this old thread. But I didn't see the point in creating a new one.

I am also planning on psychiatry and I just can't muster the empathy for these patients. I think a big deal has to do with my cousin who was doted on by my father and grandmother. Her mother was not in the picture and she would constantly get her way with everything by manipulating and crying.

So maybe it is projection in my case. But I honestly think a big part of the way these individuals manipulate the way they do has to do with their upbringing. I feel that their parents have just given the benefit of the doubt way too many times and they expect the world to cut them the same slack.

I don't think they have insight because the people in their lives have just given them a lot of leeway and have not set firm boundaries.

I have always struggled to see a lot of Cluster B's as truly mentally ill---it just does not happen.

I also wanted to add, for future parents like myself, or even current ones, set boundaries with your kids, and be their PARENT not their FRIEND...its easy to sit back and say yes to everything, but you aren't doing them any favors. One of the reasons I think my cousin ended up the way she was is because my grandmother could never see her cry or in pain whenever she wouldn't get what she wants. So my grandmother would bend over backwards to please her and she still does this.
 
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It's good that you are identifying your countertransference, we all have it and it can do the most damage when it influences us without our knowing it. I expect that some cluster B patients had parents who could not set boundaries and that is how they ended up where they are, but there are plenty of other ways that cluster B issues develop (including parents who were horrendously verbally, physically or sexually abusive and couldn't give two ****s what their children thought about it). As you work with more cluster B patients try to get a sense of each as an individual with a unique story to dispel any kind of "single origin" myth you might now hold. If you were going to hold such a causitive concept, though, trauma would probably be a better fit than coddling.

As for boundaries, a part of therapy with a personality disordered individual can be helping them adjust to setting and adhering to boundaries (I'm sorry you arrived twenty minutes late to the appointment, we still have to end on time...). When you do this, however, do it with their interests in mind and try to be as non-judgmental as possible while helping them realize the impact that transgressing social norms and expectations has in their life. The boundaries you explore in therapy with your patient can help make them a more functional person everywhere else in their lives.
 
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I apologize for reviving this old thread. But I didn't see the point in creating a new one.

I am also planning on psychiatry and I just can't muster the empathy for these patients. I think a big deal has to do with my cousin who was doted on by my father and grandmother. Her mother was not in the picture and she would constantly get her way with everything by manipulating and crying.

So maybe it is projection in my case. But I honestly think a big part of the way these individuals manipulate the way they do has to do with their upbringing. I feel that their parents have just given the benefit of the doubt way too many times and they expect the world to cut them the same slack.

I don't think they have insight because the people in their lives have just given them a lot of leeway and have not set firm boundaries.

I have always struggled to see a lot of Cluster B's as truly mentally ill---it just does not happen.

I also wanted to add, for future parents like myself, or even current ones, set boundaries with your kids, and be their PARENT not their FRIEND...its easy to sit back and say yes to everything, but you aren't doing them any favors. One of the reasons I think my cousin ended up the way she was is because my grandmother could never see her cry or in pain whenever she wouldn't get what she wants. So my grandmother would bend over backwards to please her and she still does this.

You really need to see more patients with these disorders and learn their stories. What you're describing sounds like a spoiled child growing up to be an entitled adult due to laxed parenting. This is not the same as typical Cluster B patients. Being spoiled and being borderline are not the same thing.
 
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This topic came up today when the staff was discussing a very frustrating patient. The entitlement, splitting, etc... are a part of the disease. Being occasionally frustrated makes sense but I can't get angry with someone for being sick.
 
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It's good that you are identifying your countertransference, we all have it and it can do the most damage when it influences us without our knowing it. I expect that some cluster B patients had parents who could not set boundaries and that is how they ended up where they are, but there are plenty of other ways that cluster B issues develop (including parents who were horrendously verbally, physically or sexually abusive and couldn't give two ****s what their children thought about it). As you work with more cluster B patients try to get a sense of each as an individual with a unique story to dispel any kind of "single origin" myth you might now hold. If you were going to hold such a causitive concept, though, trauma would probably be a better fit than coddling.

As for boundaries, a part of therapy with a personality disordered individual can be helping them adjust to setting and adhering to boundaries (I'm sorry you arrived twenty minutes late to the appointment, we still have to end on time...). When you do this, however, do it with their interests in mind and try to be as non-judgmental as possible while helping them realize the impact that transgressing social norms and expectations has in their life. The boundaries you explore in therapy with your patient can help make them a more functional person everywhere else in their lives.

Thanks for this suggestion. I would feel awful if I were to have this preconceived notion about someone.
 
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Thanks for this suggestion. I would feel awful if I were to have this preconceived notion about someone.

As you might have read in the old comment I posted above in this thread, I am a former* cluster B (Borderline) patient. I can't really go into too much detail in regards to my family history and the development of my borderline symptoms (mostly out of a concern not to be seen as establishing any sort of Doctor/patient relationship, which is obviously way against the TOS of this forum) in a public setting, but if you'd like to talk to someone who's symptomology developed out of a family environment of serious instability and abuse you are more than welcome to message me and ask any questions you might have. I can't promise I can answer them all for you, but I will certainly endeavour to do so as much as I am able.

(* former in this case meaning I no longer meet full diagnostic criteria, but I am still being treated for some residual issues - 'no longer meets diagnostic criteria' unfortunately doesn't necessarily equal 'praise the gods, I'm cured')
 
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As you might have read in the old comment I posted above in this thread, I am a former* cluster B (Borderline) patient. I can't really go into too much detail in regards to my family history and the development of my borderline symptoms (mostly out of a concern not to be seen as establishing any sort of Doctor/patient relationship, which is obviously way against the TOS of this forum) in a public setting, but if you'd like to talk to someone who's symptomology developed out of a family environment of serious instability and abuse you are more than welcome to message me and ask any questions you might have. I can't promise I can answer them all for you, but I will certainly endeavour to do so as much as I am able.

(* former in this case meaning I no longer meet full diagnostic criteria, but I am still being treated for some residual issues - 'no longer meets diagnostic criteria' unfortunately doesn't necessarily equal 'praise the gods, I'm cured')

Ceke, what have you found most helpful in your journey of healing from BPD? I, like many I think, find this population difficult to treat and deal with, and I'd be curious what YOU found helpful (and yes, I'm aware of the treatment options for cluster B/BPD patients but wanted to hear from a patient themselves).
 
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Ceke, what have you found most helpful in your journey of healing from BPD? I, like many I think, find this population difficult to treat and deal with, and I'd be curious what YOU found helpful (and yes, I'm aware of the treatment options for cluster B/BPD patients but wanted to hear from a patient themselves).

For me personally I found consistency, stability and appropriate empathy really helped. By that I mean consistency in the way my therapists (I had two, one female psychologist, one male, when my symptoms were still at their most active) responded to me - so unlike growing up with my rather unstable mother, I knew whatever I said or did in session it would elicit a consistent response ~ stability in the way I knew I could rely on them to be there for me when I needed it, but within set boundaries at the same time ~ and appropriate empathy to recognise that when I was engaging in negative thought processes or behaviours I wasn't made to feel like a bad person because of that, it would be bought to my attention, and we'd explore what might be behind it, but again always in a way that put an emphasis on the symptomology not on me as a person (if that makes sense). Also having someone model, quote/unquote, a "normal" range of emotions and interpersonal type behaviours definitely helped a lot as well (and still does).

I think the biggest thing though when dealing with Borderline patients is to try and understand that most of us are not necessarily acting out on purpose just to be pains in the ar%e; it's more that we don't really know any different because of the behaviour that was modelled for us growing up, or the sorts of messages we received in our formative years often being so out of whack. I remember saying in another thread on here a while back that being borderline is kind of like repeatedly hitting yourself in the head with a hammer, because that's the only tool you've been shown how to use, and then wondering why you're walking around with a splitting headache all the time.

Just to give an example based on my own experience with BPD, being able to regulate my emotions (although I am thousand times better at it than I was back in my 20's) is something I do still struggle with from time to time. At my worst I can either appear very cold and disconnected, or I can do a complete 180 and be totally losing my **** and having a screaming meltdown (although thankfully both these scenarios have diminished in frequency, and are continuing to do so, with ongoing work in therapy). Anyway when it comes to regulating emotions the fact is I was never really shown or taught how to actually do that, and what I was shown and taught was completely messed up. Without going into all of the nitty gritty details, growing up I watched my Mother dealing with her emotions by either pitching a total fit at the drop of a hat, threatening to harm herself , exaggerating illnesses (she did a great dying swan routine) or using her go to coping mechanism which was to starve herself for weeks on end and then spend the next few weeks binge eating her way through the fridge and cupboards ~ My Dad, whilst he was a lot more stable than my Mother ever was, tended to deal with his emotions by drinking heavily and compulsively gambling ~ And when it came to me I very quickly learnt that being anything other than a smiling Pollyanna (by daring to show or express basic human emotions such as sadness, disappointment, anger, and so on, for example) more often than not ended up leading to my being on the receiving end of a rather painful and traumatising punishment. So dealing with the expression of emotions for me came to mean you either threw a tantrum, engaged in manipulative and attention seeking behaviour, abused your body, drank (or in my case 'drugged') yourself into a near stupor, or just pretended you had not emotions at all. That's how I behaved, because that's what I was taught, and if (and when) I acted out in therapy it wasn't because I was necessarily trying to be a complete b!tch or that I purposefully wanted to be manipulative, I quite literally just didn't know any other way to be at that time. That's where you need to be able to empathise, whilst still maintaining that sense of consistency and stability and trying to teach or show the patient that there are healthier alternatives to what they were taught in the past.
 
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....
I think the biggest thing though when dealing with Borderline patients is to try and understand that most of us are not necessarily acting out on purpose just to be pains in the ar%e; it's more that we don't really know any different because of the behaviour that was modelled for us growing up, or the sorts of messages we received in our formative years often being so out of whack. ....
:thumbup:
 
This topic came up today when the staff was discussing a very frustrating patient. The entitlement, splitting, etc... are a part of the disease. Being occasionally frustrated makes sense but I can't get angry with someone for being sick.
Pathological Internalized Object Relations is how Kernberg describes it. The stronger the reactions of the staff, the more diagnostic it is. As I see it, part of our role (maybe psychologists than psychiatrists, but that depends on the setting and individual practitioner) when working with these patients in a treatment setting is to help keep the staff more stable and consistent with their treatment/boundaries/privileges/relationships with these patients.
 
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Someone should track this curriculum down and share it with us here: Seinfeld
If you or anyone would really like to learn more about this curriculum and possibly even use it at your own programs, I can definitely get you in contact with the right person.
 
Pathological Internalized Object Relations is how Kernberg describes it. The stronger the reactions of the staff, the more diagnostic it is. As I see it, part of our role (maybe psychologists than psychiatrists, but that depends on the setting and individual practitioner) when working with these patients in a treatment setting is to help keep the staff more stable and consistent with their treatment/boundaries/privileges/relationships with these patients.

I also like how the borderline patients intensify staff-splitting efforts as the shift changes.
 
Pathological Internalized Object Relations is how Kernberg describes it. The stronger the reactions of the staff, the more diagnostic it is. As I see it, part of our role (maybe psychologists than psychiatrists, but that depends on the setting and individual practitioner) when working with these patients in a treatment setting is to help keep the staff more stable and consistent with their treatment/boundaries/privileges/relationships with these patients.

This! :nod:

Stability and consistency is paramount. You cannot have one staff member doing one thing and another doing something else entirely when dealing with cluster B patients, because we will pick up on that **** and swoop on it to our advantage (which is more often than not tied into some very primitive survival mechanisms developed in childhood to try and minimise or protect ourselves from ongoing abuse).
 
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I also like how the borderline patients intensify staff-splitting efforts as the shift changes.
Your post makes it sound like they want to upset the staff as opposed to the environmental change is a stressor (especially the interpersonal environment) that increases CNS arousal leading to increased primitive defenses and decrease in more rational though processes.
 
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Your post makes it sound like they want to upset the staff as opposed to the environmental change is a stressor (especially the interpersonal environment) that increases CNS arousal leading to increased primitive defenses and decrease in more rational though processes.

If that translates into "They gets off on it", you're probably correct. This particular patient tests boundaries more at shift changes to find the weakest link, hoping they'll cave on some demand. Even with everyone on the same page; it creates drama when one person is even a little indecisive or ambiguous.

It'll be interesting to see how the personality disorder expresses itself as other issues are medicated.
 
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If that translates into "They gets off on it", you're probably correct. This particular patient tests boundaries more at shift changes to find the weakest link, hoping they'll cave on some demand. Even with everyone on the same page; it creates drama when one person is even a little indecisive or ambiguous.

It'll be interesting to see how the personality disorder expresses itself as other issues are medicated.
Some people are demanding and manipulative and obnoxious. My experience has been that it has less to do with a diagnosis and more to do with the individual. Also, the inpatient environment and staff play a role in enactments of pathological object relations. In other words, the staff who doesn't like the patient's interpersonal style refers to them as demanding and says no to their request. Meanwhile, the "good" patient gets a yes to the same request. Patient gets frustrated and becomes more demanding or tries another maladaptive means of getting their needs met. Often the intervention with the patient is to coach them on how to break this pattern. Have to be real careful not to play into splitting of course since both the patient and the staff tend to blame the other.
 
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If that translates into "They gets off on it", you're probably correct. This particular patient tests boundaries more at shift changes to find the weakest link, hoping they'll cave on some demand. Even with everyone on the same page; it creates drama when one person is even a little indecisive or ambiguous.

It'll be interesting to see how the personality disorder expresses itself as other issues are medicated.

OP was about a more borderliney mixed cluster B picture, but your posts continue to make me think that you're talking about narcissism or maybe antisocial PD? Splitting doesn't have to be splitting if it's really just manipulation of communication flaws between teams.
 
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Sometimes I'll sit down with a borderline or histrionic patient and just let them talk about their childhood. It's usually so unbelievably painful and traumatic that only a sociopath wouldn't feel a great deal of empathy for them.

The sociopaths are usually harder for me to empathize with, of course. But that doesn't necessarily interfere with our ability to care for them, since strict limit-setting is important with them, which I find harder to do when my heart is bleeding.

Narcissists are trickier, but most of them are functional in society and don't end up in my care as often, so I don't have enough experience to comment on that. I've probably met more doctors/med students than patients with a lot of narcissistic traits.
 
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Sometimes I'll sit down with a borderline or histrionic patient and just let them talk about their childhood. It's usually so unbelievably painful and traumatic that only a sociopath wouldn't feel a great deal of empathy for them.

I'm glad you mentioned this. Just another quick point of advice when dealing with these types of patients - watch out for signs of them possibly slipping into a caretaker role and wanting to protect the therapist from having to be exposed to details of their abuse. It's not uncommon for victims of child abuse to take on caretaker or reverse parenting (parenting the parent) type roles aimed towards their abuser, in the hope that if they can just make sure to keep their abuser happy, and looked after well enough, then maybe they'll stop hurting them. This is another thing that can get carried over into adulthood. Obviously having a caring personality and wanting to ensure the best for people is a good trait, but the trouble is we (cluster b patients/abuse survivors/etc) tend to not know when it's appropriate to adopt a caretaker role and when it isn't, often to our own detriment. I know I've done this during at least one session with my Psychiatrist, and apparently I'm not the only one of his childhood trauma patients who has, so it seems to be a fairly common occurrence. In my case we were delving into some particulars regarding my own experiences of abuse, when I just came straight out and said "this is so unfair on you, you shouldn't have to listen to this" and then shut down. His response was to a) Calmly thank me for my consideration, b) Point out that having a desire to take care of people is actually a positive personality trait, but then explain that there are certain situations where going into a care taking role isn't necessarily healthy or appropriate, and C) Explain why this was one of those situations where it wasn't appropriate for me to be trying to adopt the role of care taker (that was his job, not mine). He also detailed some of the things he already had in place to ensure his own emotional health remained stable when dealing with patients with traumatic histories, so I didn't need to worry that I was going to be 'too much' for him. It helped, and I haven't had any problems opening up with certain topics since then (although I still don't particular like talking about what happened to me in the past, as it's not exactly a pleasant topic of conversation).

As always just one patient's opinion/point of view :)
 
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Antisocials; don't let yourself feel empathy or too much of it. Antisocials could be deadly, and there really isn't an effective treatment for it.

Borderline PD: a lot of people with this disorder have it because of things not under their control as a child such as extreme abuse. That said, it's their own responsibility to fix their borderline PD with us acting as their guides through that difficult journey. In this case we should have empathy but work to empower them, not enable or excuse their self-destructive acts.

Narcissism; I haven't had enough of this type of patient to feel confident in a treatment approach in a formulaic manner. Same goes with histrionic disorder.
 
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Antisocials; don't let yourself feel empathy or too much of it. Antisocials could be deadly, and there really isn't an effective treatment for it.

Borderline PD: a lot of people with this disorder have it because of things not under their control as a child such as extreme abuse. That said, it's their own responsibility to fix their borderline PD with us acting as their guides through that difficult journey. In this case we should have empathy but work to empower them, not enable or excuse their self-destructive acts.

Narcissism; I haven't had enough of this type of patient to feel confident in a treatment approach in a formulaic manner. Same goes with histrionic disorder.
I haven't worked with too many myself, but if you ever do work with narcissists, I would recommend reading up on Kohut's conceptualization especially regarding the importance of accurate empathy and optimal frustration in the development of a healthy self that doesn't have a primitive and constant need to be validated. I have also found that this helps keep me on track with Borderline PD because they have some of the same primitive narcissistic needs and injuries.
 
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I haven't done this myself, but I've seen other people have success at targeting particular TCI-based traits in narcissists (harm avoidance, novelty seeking, cooperativity).
 
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When I feel angry at a severely borderline (or narcissitic, or antisocial) patient, I just remind myself that as bad as it feels for me to endure the behavior they're directing at me, it must feel so much worse to be the person doing that to everyone in their lives and having to then endure the reactions they get from everyone they meet.

You get to go home and enjoy spending time with your loving spouse, children, family, friends, etc. That patient's (ex-)spouse, children, and family all feel toward them what you feel toward them, and they have no friends.
 
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My issue with psychiatrists and borderlines is that psychiatrists just don't have a lot to offer them. We can tell them they are borderline and tell them what we know about current treatments...what doesn't work and what sorta does. Umm great. That's like telling someone floundering in the middle of the Pacific Ocean without a life vest that they are drowning and they better get to shore somehow or they will die. What the person needs is not to be told they are borderline or that they are drowning in the pacific- what the person needs is the coast guard to get out there and tow them to shore. And in the vast majority of cases(yes I'll admit there are exceptions) it is usually psychologists and therapists and not psychiatrists serving as the coast guard doing the actually meaningful work with borderlines.
 
Vistaril I do not agree. Psychiatrist john Gundeeson has pioneered a lot of good clinical treatments for BPD. And a good training program can train residents how to treat such patients, and should, given up to one fifth of inpatients may have BPD traits.
 
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Vistaril I do not agree. Psychiatrist john Gundeeson has pioneered a lot of good clinical treatments for BPD. And a good training program can train residents how to treat such patients, and should, given up to one fifth of inpatients may have BPD traits.

You will note that I said there are exceptions. It is pretty obvious though that most of the outpt interventions done with dbt patients are not done by psychiatrists.

And yes, it is good to treat borderlines right during their inpatient stays....but this isn't really all that fundamental to their long term success. Going back to the Pacific Ocean analogy, appropriately dealing with their bpd during their inpatient stay is like tossing them a water bottle while they are in the middle of the ocean. Yeah it will quench their thirst for a minute, but they still need that coast guard tow.
 
I agree that in most cases as a psychiatrist you won't be the coast guard towing them back to shore (except maybe in NYC and Boston).

But I do think there is value in telling the person that they are in the Pacific Ocean and that they're drowning, if only so that when they coast guard comes they accept the help rather than chasing them away.

And even as a psychiatrist doing meds, there is value in being an empathetic and consistent presence in their lives. Going with the analogy, you can help the person by teaching them how to tread water while waiting for the coast guard to come.
 
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