end of carib schools???

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Caribbean Schools have an intrinsic problem of reputation unlike schools from other countries ( including Mexico ) which dates back to their history and demographics. Some schools in the 1980s were selling diplomas, the quality of the teachers and the lack of access to patients in the clinics was deplorable, their physical plants pitiful . A small island like the Dominican Republic with .....how many medical schools at one point ?? Monserrat.......with a Medical School??

What????? Mexican medical schools have a bad rep I know for a fact,

The Big Caribbean 4 do not have a Bad rep at all, in fact some of the others are getting decent reps, By the way I graduated High School in 1982 I Lived through the 80's in College and do not remember such crap but there was conjecture by many on this, in other words unproven rumors.

I will admit there are some schools that have been busted as diploma mills including some who set themselves up in the USA in the Past (what do you have to say about that?)

It is undeniable that the "business" of caribbean medical schools began because of the rejected american students. Still to this date, that's their reason for being. They cater to americans!

There is nothing short sighted nor biased about that. To suggest that any of these schools even compare to an american school is absolutely ridiculous. Are you forgetting the fact that these schools can not even sustain their students the whole 4 years and have desperately lobbied through the years to gain access to the US or UK schools and hospitals for their clinical rotations?

It is ridiculous for you to post something you know little about.

What school have attended in the Caribbean?

SGU does research and is very well respected, it does compare very well and in some cases surpasses some US medical schools

Again you show the ignorance you have here.... Caribbean schools have always from the beginning had US clinicals (Last 2 years) this is to strengthen the student in US medicine where over 90% want to practice, this makes good sense and adds value to the education. WHy is it bad thing to be trained in the USA by US doctors and hospitals, does this not create better Doctors? I would have to say yes!

Caribbean schools have MD's and PHD's as professors, use the same books
same information taught, same techniques

SAME! I see that one can become a Physician the same as US

It is you who are biased and short sighted to see that the Caribbean provides opportunity for one to become a Physician not all are up to it though they think they are.

FMGs used to complain that the fact that they had to take a "different exam -ECFMG " than US graduates was discriminatory and that their exam was "harder" because the National Board wanted them to fail. Well, now you have the same exam, and the passing rates are significantly lower than US trained students, for a reason : the quality of their medical school education. Nothing else.

As I already said you really need to know what you are talking about, ECMFG and not a different test but the Body that certifies a FMG to take the USMLE as I have had to pay them twice now for the exams.

Please Know the facts

On another note you are a HERO to all those who believe the crap and myths of the Caribbean

Good Luck on your path :eek:

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oldpro,

Perhaps you have been hitting your head now for too long. I happen to know the facts. I have very close friends of the family and other relatives that attended SGU, Zaragoza in Spain, Guadalajara in Mexico and a few of the Dominican Republic schools. Another went to Monserrat which is the reason I mentioned it.

I believe that it is you who is really spreading misinformation in this forum. The point is that there is not a single school approved by the LCME in the US that has ever been caught fabricating or selling diplomas like some Dominican Republic Schools were caught doing in the 80s..(i do not even want to speculate about what you were doing then if you had finished high school at the time and do not know about this . It was big news)

You love to throw around the term The Big Caribbean Four, which is hilarious because the only people who talk like that are those attending caribbean schools. SGU is well respected by....who?? In Latin American and South America, the respected medical schools are mostly cuban, UNAM, Guadalajara and Universidad de Chile. Trust me. I really, really know about this.

A respectable medical school does not need to rely on "another" medical school in order to have its students finish and gain access to clinical rotations. The only way The Big Caribbean Four could have a chance of having any of their graduating students compete effectively for resident positions and build some "trust" with those US programs was by doing what they did. Lobby and make arrangements to have those rotations here. ( Which is also part of the business because the participating Hospitals all get money for doing that by having the man power that they lack) You clearly missed my point there. Of course it is a great thing. That's one of the reasons they have been able to exist.

And do not talk to me about the ECFMG exams , etc. I have grown up listening to all that. Like I told you: the reason that I know so much about the topic is because there have been too many around me through the years that for one reason or another have chosen to go that route (from money, to lack of us acceptances)

On a last good note, all those people are doing well and have had successful practices which is what counts. Most are doing FP or Psychiatry and they are happy with that. However the road has been long and hard. If they had to do it all over again, they would try harder to get into the US. No doubt.

Do not get so bend out of shape with my comments because I have nothing against those schools. And if you are graduating from one, you better get used to your reality. You seem to be in major denial.

The best of luck in your path too (without the stupid face)
 
Well, now you have the same exam, and the passing rates are significantly lower than US trained students, for a reason : the quality of their medical school education. Nothing else.

I never knew the structure of the human body in the caribbean was different than that in the US. The passing rates in the carib are lower because they take students with lower gpa/mcat on average.
If you took carib students and placed them in US schools their pass rate would be the same as in the carib. If you took Harvard students and put them in the carib their pass rates would be the same as in Harvard.
 
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I never knew the structure of the human body in the caribbean was different than that in the US. The passing rates in the carib are lower because they take students with lower gpa/mcat on average.
If you took carib students and placed them in US schools their pass rate would be the same as in the carib. If you took Harvard students and put them in the carib their pass rates would be the same as in Harvard.

Are you implying that the quality of the education given, the resources, the labs, the cadavers for anatomy, the size of the classes, the endowment, the faculty members, the physical plants, etc do not contribute to the learning process? Why do you think that the ivy league is so competitive? Because students know that they can get a great education there.

Are you saying that the learning process is just a matter of reading and studying from the same "books"?

All that contributes to the lower passing grades of off-shore schools, which is what caribbean schools are.

You just reminded me of that advertising frequently seen in magazines, about acquiring a "Harvard Vocabulary" by buying a set of flash cards.

Going back to the thread, I do not think that caribbean schools will disappear in the short run. As long as all the people who want to be doctors do not get into US, Canadian or Australian schools for that matter, the business of "off shore" medical schools will continue. As long as the schools continue to improve, there is nothing wrong with that.
 
oldpro,

Perhaps you have been hitting your head now for too long. I happen to know the facts. I have very close friends of the family and other relatives that attended SGU, Zaragoza in Spain, Guadalajara in Mexico and a few of the Dominican Republic schools. Another went to Monserrat which is the reason I mentioned it.

Not facts but anecdotal information, Facts are those backed up by research and proof not hear say, (Insults are unprofessional by the way)

I believe that it is you who is really spreading misinformation in this forum. The point is that there is not a single school approved by the LCME in the US that has ever been caught fabricating or selling diplomas like some Dominican Republic Schools were caught doing in the 80s..(i do not even want to speculate about what you were doing then if you had finished high school at the time and do not know about this . It was big news)
Where did I post LCME schools? I said medical schools set up in the us, one was Grace at one time, another is on a Indian reservation last year, right in the good Ole USA. Please do not twist what I post.

You love to throw around the term The Big Caribbean Four, which is hilarious because the only people who talk like that are those attending caribbean schools. SGU is well respected by....who?? In Latin American and South America, the respected medical schools are mostly cuban, UNAM, Guadalajara and Universidad de Chile. Trust me. I really, really know about this.
The Big four are California approved and have grads in more then just a few states with proven tract record of practicing grads, Licensed Doctors some in the highest paid specialties. You can try to ignor the facts and truth all you want but this is reality and can be proven easily.

A respectable medical school does not need to rely on "another" medical school in order to have its students finish and gain access to clinical rotations. The only way The Big Caribbean Four could have a chance of having any of their graduating students compete effectively for resident positions and build some "trust" with those US programs was by doing what they did. Lobby and make arrangements to have those rotations here. ( Which is also part of the business because the participating Hospitals all get money for doing that by having the man power that they lack) You clearly missed my point there. Of course it is a great thing. That's one of the reasons they have been able to exist.
I see your only point is to put down Caribbean schools with great biased and half truths, the Caribbean schools do not rely on Medical schools in the USA, they contract and pay the Teaching Hospitals to have the students do the clinical rotations there, and why not? This is a good thing

And do not talk to me about the ECFMG exams , etc. I have grown up listening to all that. Like I told you: the reason that I know so much about the topic is because there have been too many around me through the years that for one reason or another have chosen to go that route (from money, to lack of us acceptances)

Well you have a lack of knowledge, there are no such thing as ECMFG exams
never have been, that is not what ECMFG is,

If you are an international medical graduate and wish to enter an ACGME-accredited residency or fellowship program in the United States, you must be certified by ECFMG before you can enter the program. You must also be certified by ECFMG if you wish to take Step 3 of the three-step United States Medical Licensing Examination™ (USMLE™). ECFMG Certification is required to obtain an unrestricted license to practice medicine.

To be certified by ECFMG, you must pass a series of exams; you must also provide ECFMG with copies of your medical education credentials, which ECFMG will verify directly with your medical school. The certification process begins when you apply to ECFMG for a USMLE/ECFMG Identification Number. To obtain a number, you must provide information that will become a part of your permanent ECFMG record. You must have your number before you can apply for examination.

right from the ECMFG site. http://www.ecfmg.org/cert/index.html

Certify is what they do they do not do the testing.

On a last good note, all those people are doing well and have had successful practices which is what counts. Most are doing FP or Psychiatry and they are happy with that. However the road has been long and hard. If they had to do it all over again, they would try harder to get into the US. No doubt.

This is conjecture based on what? Just an opinion from a non Caribbean student, you cannot possibly believe you speak for all of them, you certainly cannot speak for me!

Do not get so bend out of shape with my comments because I have nothing against those schools. And if you are graduating from one, you better get used to your reality. You seem to be in major denial.

No denial, I have as above shown and proven you do not know as much as you think, I have been around a lot longer then you and done extensive real research on the facts with enough time I can keep posting all the proof to back up what I post.

My reality is I have residency lined up
I have a practice when I get out and a partner ( just met tonight to go over more details)

I will succeed beyond what I thought I would when I started.

You say you are not antiCaribbean, yet you post unproven facts that are in reality just your opinion.

In the future make sure you post as opinion when you have no facts to back up what you write. Then I will be more accepting.
 
Are you implying that the quality of the education given, the resources, the labs, the cadavers for anatomy, the size of the classes, the endowment, the faculty members, the physical plants, etc do not contribute to the learning process? Why do you think that the ivy league is so competitive? Because students know that they can get a great education there.

Are you saying that the learning process is just a matter of reading and studying from the same "books"?

All that contributes to the lower passing grades of off-shore schools, which is what caribbean schools are.

You just reminded me of that advertising frequently seen in magazines, about acquiring a "Harvard Vocabulary" by buying a set of flash cards.

Going back to the thread, I do not think that caribbean schools will disappear in the short run. As long as all the people who want to be doctors do not get into US, Canadian or Australian schools for that matter, the business of "off shore" medical schools will continue. As long as the schools continue to improve, there is nothing wrong with that.

OK so what medical school do you attend? Your a self appointed expert.
 
Are you implying that the quality of the education given, the resources, the labs, the cadavers for anatomy, the size of the classes, the endowment, the faculty members, the physical plants, etc do not contribute to the learning process? Why do you think that the ivy league is so competitive? Because students know that they can get a great education there.

Are you saying that the learning process is just a matter of reading and studying from the same "books"?

All that contributes to the lower passing grades of off-shore schools, which is what caribbean schools are.

You just reminded me of that advertising frequently seen in magazines, about acquiring a "Harvard Vocabulary" by buying a set of flash cards.

Going back to the thread, I do not think that caribbean schools will disappear in the short run. As long as all the people who want to be doctors do not get into US, Canadian or Australian schools for that matter, the business of "off shore" medical schools will continue. As long as the schools continue to improve, there is nothing wrong with that.

You think you have Caribbean med schools all figured out, don't you? I find it amusing that you, who has never even attended a Caribbean school, claim to know all about what type of facilities they have. I graduated from St. George's and let me assure you that in my opinion, the facilities were excellent. There were plenty of cadavers, classroom size was similar to that of US schools, library was up-to-date, and the labs were well set-up. Not all Caribbean schools hold classes inside some kind of thatched hut. Let me tell you something else. I have classmates who would have kicked your a$$ on the USMLE. I know of one guy who got a 250. Another guy managed to get into an ophtho residency because he had excellent USMLE scores. And last time I checked, at least 90% of students from SGU pass the USMLE on first attempt. And before you say that's because SGU requires students to pass the school's own comprehensive basic science exam before allowing them to sit Step 1, here's the thing. Almost everyone passes the school's exam. In my year, out of 195 students sitting the Basic Science Comprehensive Exam, only 17 failed.
You also talk about Ivy League schools. Ivy League is a brand name, nothing more. A brand name of prestige, but a brand name all the same. Just because your school is not part of the Ivy League does not by definition mean it is a bad school.
The ignorance in your post is frightening. You assume facts not based in evidence. Next time, do a little research before you post.
 
Are you implying that the quality of the education given, the resources, the labs, the cadavers for anatomy, the size of the classes, the endowment, the faculty members, the physical plants, etc do not contribute to the learning process? Why do you think that the ivy league is so competitive? Because students know that they can get a great education there.

Are you saying that the learning process is just a matter of reading and studying from the same "books"?

All that contributes to the lower passing grades of off-shore schools, which is what caribbean schools are.

You just reminded me of that advertising frequently seen in magazines, about acquiring a "Harvard Vocabulary" by buying a set of flash cards.

Going back to the thread, I do not think that caribbean schools will disappear in the short run. As long as all the people who want to be doctors do not get into US, Canadian or Australian schools for that matter, the business of "off shore" medical schools will continue. As long as the schools continue to improve, there is nothing wrong with that.

You think you have Caribbean med schools all figured out, don't you? I find it amusing that you, who has never even attended a Caribbean school, claim to know all about what type of facilities they have. I graduated from St. George's and let me assure you that in my opinion, the facilities were excellent. There were plenty of cadavers, classroom size was similar to that of US schools, library was up-to-date, and the labs were well set-up. Not all Caribbean schools hold classes inside some kind of thatched hut. Let me tell you something else. I have classmates who would have kicked your a$$ on the USMLE. I know of one guy who got a 250. Another guy managed to get into an ophtho residency because he had excellent USMLE scores. And last time I checked, at least 90% of students from SGU pass the USMLE on first attempt. And before you say that's because SGU requires students to pass the school's own comprehensive basic science exam before allowing them to sit Step 1, here's the thing. Almost everyone passes the school's exam. In my year, out of 195 students sitting the Basic Science Comprehensive Exam, only 17 failed.
You also talk about Ivy League schools. Ivy League is a brand name, nothing more. A brand name of prestige, but a brand name all the same. Just because your school is not part of the Ivy League does not by definition mean it is a bad school.
The ignorance in your post is frightening. You assume facts not based in evidence. Next time, do a little research before you post.
 
And incidentally, that 90% first-time USMLE pass rate by SGU students is an average five-year pass rate.
 
ToP Gun,

I do have caribbean schools all figured out. I have two close friends who graduated from SGU and I visited them, several times.This thread has nothing to do with the Ivy League, which by the way is more than a brand name. As a group, they represent the best schools in the world. Do not be ridiculous.
 
oldpro,

I am going to follow your format, just to clarify a few points.

(Insults are unprofessional by the way)

Have a sense of humor. I was making reference to your icon hitting his head constantly.

I said medical schools set up in the us,

Exactly. That's what you said. A very general statement. The only medical schools in the US are all LCME approved. Anyone can post a sign at a door and call it whatever they want and it is not the norm of what goes on here.

The Big four are California approved and have grads in more then just a few states with proven tract record of practicing grads, Licensed Doctors some in the highest paid specialties.

I have never denied that. I even mentioned my own examples.

the Caribbean schools do not rely on Medical schools in the USA, they contract and pay the Teaching Hospitals to have the students do the clinical rotations there, and why not?

In essence this is what i was saying, so i do not know where you were going with this. Furthermore, the reason the caribbean schools do this is to be able to place students in residences later on and to be able to offer clinical rotations that otherwise they would not be able to do. This is what makes a school "popular" with applicants or not.

Well you have a lack of knowledge, there are no such thing as ECMFG exams never have been, that is not what ECMFG is,

You are the one showing lack of knowledge on this. For someone that is on his forties, you should know that the ECFMG exam was what students called "the FOREIGN". The debate was that this exam was "harder" than the regular USLME exams and there were a lot of complaints by the FMG section of the AMA. After plenty of lobbying, legislature allowed everyone to take the same exam. This is what I referred to earlier. Not a big deal. Let it rest.

you certainly cannot speak for me!

Of course not. Now, you are being purely rhetorical.

My reality is I have residency lined up. I have a practice when I get out and a partner

Congratulations. Best of luck to you and your future partner.

In the future make sure you post as opinion when you have no facts to back up what you write. Then I will be more accepting

I have posted my opinion based on facts. Unfortunately, those are facts that you find threatening because they are critical. And ...I really do not need you to be more accepting.
 
olpro said:
Exactly. That's what you said. A very general statement. The only medical schools in the US are all LCME approved. Anyone can post a sign at a door and call it whatever they want and it is not the norm of what goes on here.


There have been NON LCME medical schools in the USA before that is my point, you want to deny this, but its plain and simple

Heres the proof, I told you I do research

The web site is down for the school but here is archived from 10 months ago (June 2007)

A "medical school set up in the USA non LCME" it has happened recently

Hoepfully it has been shut down.

http://web.archive.org/web/20070626073603/http://stewartmed.org/index.html

Stewart Medical school.

I do not post conjecture or make things up I verify my information or post opinion.:smuggrin:
 
oldpro,







You are the one showing lack of knowledge on this. For someone that is on his forties, you should know that the ECFMG exam was what students called "the FOREIGN". The debate was that this exam was "harder" than the regular USLME exams and there were a lot of complaints by the FMG section of the AMA. After plenty of lobbying, legislature allowed everyone to take the same exam. This is what I referred to earlier. Not a big deal. Let it rest.


OK I did the work for you what you are talking about does not have anything to do with the Current or recent generation of Doctors but History.

Development of ECFMG

In 1954, the Cooperating Committee on Graduates of Foreign Medical Schools (CCGFMS) was formed by the Association of American Medical Colleges (AAMC), the American Hospital Association (AHA), the American Medical Association (AMA), and the Federation of State Medical Boards (FSMB) as a first step toward filling this need. Charged with exploring methodologies that could uniformly evaluate the qualifications of international medical graduates, CCGFMS recommended that such an evaluation program should consist of the validation of medical education credentials and examinations in the medical sciences and the English language.

In 1956, the sponsoring organizations formed a private, nonprofit organization, the Evaluation Service for Foreign Medical Graduates (ESFMG), to implement CCGFMS' recommendations. At the end of 1956, ESFMG changed its name to the Educational Council for Foreign Medical Graduates (ECFMG). ECFMG developed procedures to validate medical credentials and, with the assistance of the National Board of Medical Examiners (NBME), developed a medical science examination and English language proficiency test.

In March 1958, ECFMG administered its first examination in seventeen test centers to 298 international medical graduates. From 1958 through 1973, ECFMG continued to assess the readiness of international medical graduates to enter accredited programs of graduate medical education in the United States. This formal evaluation process, consisting of examinations and validation of medical education credentials, became known as ECFMG Certification.

The scope of ECFMG's responsibilities broadened in 1974 when it merged with the Commission on Foreign Medical Graduates, whose activities included conducting research on international medical graduates and monitoring the visa sponsorship of medical Exchange Visitors in the United States. The combined organization was named the Educational Commission for Foreign Medical Graduates, retaining the acronym ECFMG. By virtue of its new responsibilities, ECFMG became increasingly involved with the international medical community, a trend that continues today.

Improving Certification Methods

Throughout the following decades, ECFMG made significant improvements to its program of certification. In 1986, ECFMG began to verify the medical education credentials of its applicants directly with the medical schools that issued the credentials. This process of direct verification with approximately 1,300 medical schools worldwide has allowed ECFMG to develop unparalleled expertise in the area of physician credentials. Since 2000, ECFMG has made this expertise available to medical licensing authorities through its International Credentials Services.

In 1998, ECFMG introduced its Clinical Skills Assessment (CSA) as an additional requirement for ECFMG Certification. The culmination of nearly two decades of research and planning, the CSA provides a consistent and objective method of evaluating the clinical skills of international medical graduates prior to their entry into U.S. programs of graduate medical education. In 2001, ECFMG and NBME began to explore development of a clinical skills component that could be incorporated into the United States Medical Licensing Examination (USMLE) for both graduates of U.S./Canadian (LCME- and AOA-accredited) medical schools and international medical graduates. This collaboration continued into 2002 when ECFMG and NBME jointly established a second Clinical Skills Assessment Center in Atlanta, Georgia. During 2002, ECFMG and NBME conducted pilot studies at the Philadelphia and Atlanta test centers. The studies included students from local U.S. medical schools and students/graduates of international medical schools, who continued to take the ECFMG CSA for ECFMG Certification.

In 1999, ECFMG participated with NBME in the transition to computer-based testing (CBT) for Step 1 and Step 2 of the USMLE, the exams currently administered that meet the medical science examination requirement for ECFMG Certification. With the advent of CBT, ECFMG continues to determine applicant eligibility and to register eligible applicants for these exams. However, the exams are now delivered by Prometric®, part of the Thomson Corporation, through its worldwide network of test centers.

I think the problem here is a misunderstanding

The USMLE is the same for FMG/IMG and US students

It is written by the NBME

The ECFMG certifies and coordinates the exam for the FMG/IMG students but the ECFMG is not a different exam it does not write the contents of the exam that has always been done by the NBME

Note from the start in 1956
with the assistance of the National Board of Medical Examiners (NBME)

in Medicine its good to be precise and accurate. This is my point
 
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What I wish is people had to tell us the truth here, Premed, Medical Student, DOctor, or someone who is none of these.

Also because your Father, Mother, Brother, Sister, Grandfather, Grandmother, Cousin.......on and on ............. is a Doctor and went to medical school does not certainly make YOU an expert and they are not also,

Put it another way, learning to fly a plane in avaition school does not make you an aviation expert, it takes years of flying, experts on medical education are those who have experienced first hand and done research into all aspects of Medical education with experiencing some of it,

Going to school does not make you a Medical Education expert, you become an expert in your specialty. also medical education has drastically changed in 20-15-10 years Just look at genetics

While I have done hours upon hours ( cause I'm nuts at times) of research on FMG/IMG ( since I'm soon to be one) I'm still not an expert.

I consider few people who post on SDN an expert at Medical education since I can point out posts at times that the facts do not support.

The real expert would be someone who spends full time keeping up with it all.
 
ToP Gun,

I do have caribbean schools all figured out. I have two close friends who graduated from SGU and I visited them, several times.This thread has nothing to do with the Ivy League, which by the way is more than a brand name. As a group, they represent the best schools in the world. Do not be ridiculous.

If you had visited SGU, you would have seen that the facilities are far from lousy. They may not be as advanced as those of some med schools in the US, but they are more than sufficient for any student who wants to study medicine. Our basic science instructors are retired basic science professors from med schools in the US and UK, or they are guest lecturers who have teaching appointments in those schools. So you see, its not like we're all learning medicine in some shack from local Grenadian physicians. Further, a few visits to SGU hardly makes you an expert on the quality of education offered there. Visiting SGU is not the same thing as attending classes and labs, and using the library day in and day out. Maybe you sat in on a class or two and thought that the lecture wasn't very good. Well, not every lecturer is going to be stellar, but you can't generalize from one or two lectures and assume that the majority of lectures are that way. As for the Ivy League, you're the one who brought it up. Just because a student wasn't fortunate enough to attend Harvard or Yale doesn't mean s/he won't get a good education if s/he goes elsewhere.
 
ToP Gun,

I do have caribbean schools all figured out. I have two close friends who graduated from SGU and I visited them, several times.This thread has nothing to do with the Ivy League, which by the way is more than a brand name. As a group, they represent the best schools in the world. Do not be ridiculous.

If you had visited SGU, you would have seen that the facilities are far from lousy. They may not be as advanced as those of some med schools in the US, but they are more than sufficient for any student who wants to study medicine. Our basic science instructors are retired basic science professors from med schools in the US and UK, or they are guest lecturers who have teaching appointments in those schools. So you see, its not like we're all learning medicine in some shack from local Grenadian physicians. Further, a few visits to SGU hardly makes you an expert on the quality of education offered there. Visiting SGU is not the same thing as attending classes and labs, and using the library day in and day out. Maybe you sat in on a class or two and thought that the lecture wasn't very good. Well, not every lecturer is going to be stellar, but you can't generalize from one or two lectures and assume that the majority of lectures are that way. As for the Ivy League, you're the one who brought it up. Just because a student wasn't fortunate enough to attend Harvard or Yale doesn't mean s/he won't get a good education if s/he goes elsewhere.
 
oldpro, thanks for your information and clarifying the misunderstanding.
 
Again, another opinion. Not to dissect the blog now, but as you can see this is consistent with the "general" perception.

http://offshoremedicalschool.blogspot.com/2007/12/stigma.html

Have a field day, guys. The blog seems to be very well written and well intended.

Good try but this is what it says on the blog:

Welcome. This blog is intended to provide some information for people wishing to attend medical school "off-shore". The focus is on Australian medical students, but I will try and include information for all nationalities.

It is opinion (Hence Blog) and is not relflecting US practice.

No field day its just one persons opinion last I checked the US had 300 million, the world over 3 billion people

There are only 21 million in Australia Uh compared to 300 million in the US?

I value US opinion over them (since I'm an American)

Plus like I said one person cannot know the mind of (Everyone) its impossible.

By the Way the Blog is not anti Caribbean and speaks as if to say the stigma is silly ( as we know) that Competence is valued over where you went to school.

What I'm trying to say is that, in my opinion, there is no set formula for becoming a great doctor. Providing you are obtaining decent medical education and experience, the majority of it is up to the student.

and even this?

So, on the stigma thing, a lot of it is just my opinion. But that is the point. It is opinions. Can stigma affect your professional career? I think that depends on what path you intend on taking, and that will also be covered in a separate, more objective, post.

And don't forget there is stigma for everything. On-shore medical schools may have stigma too (maybe they're too traditional, maybe they're too academically focused and not patient focused, etc).
This is interesting It says Australian schools have stigma?

Good Luck everyone.
 
To suggest that any of these schools even compare to an american school is absolutely ridiculous.

Apparently, someone disagrees with this statement.

"The United States Department of Education has determined that the ((insert accreditation authority here)) accreditation standards are comparable to those set by the Liaison Committee on Medical Education (LCME), which accredits medical education programs in the United States."

This quote is found on the websites of several Carib schools which are eligible for federal financial aid. So, what it seems to boil down to is that the U.S. Dept. of Education indirectly states that yes, they are comparable. And not to be offensive, but I would think the they have a little more expertise on the subject than most people on here. Is the education the same in quality? Heck if I know, but I'm not going to make a statement like the one above saying it is or is not.
 
oldpro,

It is opinion (Hence Blog) and is not reflecting US practice

JUST LIKE I SAID at the beginning of the post: "another opinion" Did you missed that? Clearly we are talking about opinions here, YOURS, MINE and OTHERS.

By the Way the Blog is not anti Caribbean and speaks as if to say the stigma is silly ( as we know) that Competence is valued over where you went to school

No one suggested that it was. You keep making the most inappropriate assumptions. I agree with the blog.

This is interesting It says Australian schools have stigma

But of course! Just like some american schools may have a certain "stigma". People going to private schools may have a 'stigma'. Just like those going to a "community college" may have a "stigma". Those who prefer Ivy League over anything else may carry the "stigma" of being "elitists" ( have you heard of dropping the H-bomb ? - ) and those who attend private schools in New England may have the "stigma" of being "rich and snobbish".

If you were a little bit less defensive, perhaps you would have gotten what i had been trying to say. I have realized that non verbal communication is a bit difficult...but a good exercise, nevertheless.
 
Apparently, someone disagrees with this statement.

"The United States Department of Education has determined that the ((insert accreditation authority here)) accreditation standards are comparable to those set by the Liaison Committee on Medical Education (LCME), which accredits medical education programs in the United States."

This quote is found on the websites of several Carib schools which are eligible for federal financial aid. So, what it seems to boil down to is that the U.S. Dept. of Education indirectly states that yes, they are comparable. And not to be offensive, but I would think the they have a little more expertise on the subject than most people on here. Is the education the same in quality? Heck if I know, but I'm not going to make a statement like the one above saying it is or is not.

I see that you need to work with what you have. So what does that mean? Harvard and East Carolina University are both accredited by the LCME. To "compare both schools is absolutely ridiculous". You get my point now?
 
I would agree that comparing them to Harvard or East Carolina, which are both top ranked, highly regarded US schools, is at best a dubious undertaking. But, that is not what you said. You said "an american school." Many american schools, or other institutions worldwide for that matter, do not compare to the top schools either, so it isn't saying a whole lot that Caribbean schools don't either.

And with some posted residency matches from Carib schools at top US institutions, I would assume that some program directors would tend to agree that the education is of, at the very least, comparable quality with US institutions in general.

So, unless you are revising your original assertion, I'm sorry but no I do not see your point.
 
oldpro,



JUST LIKE I SAID at the beginning of the post: "another opinion" Did you missed that? Clearly we are talking about opinions here, YOURS, MINE and OTHERS.



No one suggested that it was. You keep making the most inappropriate assumptions. I agree with the blog.



But of course! Just like some american schools may have a certain "stigma". People going to private schools may have a 'stigma'. Just like those going to a "community college" may have a "stigma". Those who prefer Ivy League over anything else may carry the "stigma" of being "elitists" ( have you heard of dropping the H-bomb ? - ) and those who attend private schools in New England may have the "stigma" of being "rich and snobbish".

If you were a little bit less defensive, perhaps you would have gotten what i had been trying to say. I have realized that non verbal communication is a bit difficult...but a good exercise, nevertheless.

What are you really trying to say?

You started making comments on Caribbean schools, what this forum is about not Australian schools, then you post about the Blog that comments on the impact and stigma of offshore schools on Australia not the USA.

I'm sorry but this forum and this thread is about Caribbean schools as they relate to USA not Australia ( no offense to Aussies)

I really do not understand what direction you are trying to go in?

If you want to talk about England or Austraila there are other forums for that.

I pointed out that the blog and opinion was not about the USA which over 90% of the posters here are worried/concerned about.:confused:
 
Well guys, nothing like agreeing to disagreeing! But this is going nowhere and it is becoming an exercise in futility. Sorry if I have not expressed my opinion or thoughts clearly.

I am glad that we are all working hard on our studies. If we are capable of putting this much energy into a debate, we are likely to do very well with anything else that we set our selves to do!!

Best wishes !! :)
 
Those schools weren't on the AMCAS list when I applied last year...

There are other options! All 4 Puerto Rican medical schools are LITERALLY accredited in ALL of the US. They are on the AMCAS list of medical schools. I know because I'm going to one in three months. Duke-NUS opened a medical school in Singapore this year. I didn't get in (unfortunately because it was one of my top choices) but it will also be accredited.
 
I would just like to reply to Top Gun's message. I'm attending Emory University right now for MPH (Emory has a top 20 med school) and I can't say that I think it's the most amazing place in the world. I didn't apply to med school here, but the kids who go here I've met all have 3.7 gpa's or higher, a lot got like 35+ MCAT and I even know a girl who went to Harvard for undergrad and then UC-Berkely for a PhD. That said...the med school is in a new building with almost NO facilties to speak of, their library is housed across campus in the Emory University Dental school (which hasn't existed since I started here) and I volunteered at Emory University Hospital for 6 months and it's nothing to be impressed about. The other two hospitals they use for rotations are the local VA and Grady (which is being shut-down because its $200 million in debt or something). In the fall I'm starting at a very small, recently accredited (LCME, AAMC, etc.) school in Puerto Rico that obviously isn't as nice or well-funded as Emory, but hey, it's more or less the same thing.
 
matayo,

"Caribbean" schools are not on the AMCAS because they are not accredited by the LCME. They are foreign medical schools. Puerto Rico is a Commonwealth State of the US (almost like another state). You attend school there and it is the same as if you attend any med school in the US.

The Univ Puerto Rico, Ponce ( Catholic) and Univ Central del Caribe have been accredited for many years. The newest school, San Juan Bautista gained LCME accreditation last year. They are all part of AMCAS.

Eventhough Puerto Rico is in the caribbean, these schools are just like american schools for the purposes of obtaining licenses in the US , etc. You are not considered an IMG or FMG.
 
matayo,

"Caribbean" schools are not on the AMCAS because they are not accredited by the LCME. They are foreign medical schools. Puerto Rico is a Commonwealth State of the US (almost like another state). You attend school there and it is the same as if you attend any med school in the US.

The Univ Puerto Rico, Ponce ( Catholic) and Univ Central del Caribe have been accredited for many years. The newest school, San Juan Bautista gained LCME accreditation last year. They are all part of AMCAS.

Eventhough Puerto Rico is in the caribbean, these schools are just like american schools for the purposes of obtaining licenses in the US , etc. You are not considered an IMG or FMG.

Brain Buff, The LCME cannot and will not accredit schools outside the USA, that has been the official response from the LCME

PR schools are in the USA, PR is a territory of the USA hence it is the USA thats why the LCME has accredited them.

So the Caribbean schools may qualify for accreditation but cannot be accredited due to the LCME rules.
 
oldpro, you are quoting me and trying to clarify .....what? You are just repeating what i said. Do you realize that you just repeated what I said? You seem to really be having a problem here dude.

Caribbean schools MAY NOT qualify for accreditation because they are foreign schools.
 
Exactly superoxide. Thanks for clarifying that point. I really do not know what the clarification from oldpro was all about.

Matayo seemed to be confused about why the caribbean schools were not part of AMCAS, while the PR schools (including the one he applied to ) were. All North american med schools ( canadian and us ) are accredited by LCME.
 
oldpro, you are quoting me and trying to clarify .....what? You are just repeating what i said. Do you realize that you just repeated what I said? You seem to really be having a problem here dude.

Caribbean schools MAY NOT qualify for accreditation because they are foreign schools.
The clarification is because you said the schools could not be comparable to US schools.

Now that we agree that LCME will not even allow an application and that states have approved many Caribbean grads for licensure that the school was indeed comparable to US medical education, it seems that we must agree then that many Caribbean schools "pass the test", the Grads themselves prove that the education is comparable, they get licensed!

Look like a lawyer you have to build a case here, I guess you new to this huh?
 
olpro, you really have a problem with interpretation and i am finding you argumentative beyond reason. Just so that you understand, I am going to explain it very carefully with this last attempt, hoping that you can see that some of your points are unnecessary and make no sense:

I SAID

"Caribbean" schools are not on the AMCAS because they are not accredited by the LCME. They are foreign medical schools. Puerto Rico is a Commonwealth State of the US (almost like another state). You attend school there and it is the same as if you attend any med school in the US.

The Univ Puerto Rico, Ponce ( Catholic) and Univ Central del Caribe have been accredited for many years. The newest school, San Juan Bautista gained LCME accreditation last year. They are all part of AMCAS.

Eventhough Puerto Rico is in the caribbean, these schools are just like american schools for the purposes of obtaining licenses in the US , etc. You are not considered an IMG or FMG.

To which you replied:

Brain Buff, The LCME cannot and will not accredit schools outside the USA, that has been the official response from the LCME

PR schools are in the USA, PR is a territory of the USA hence it is the USA thats why the LCME has accredited them.

So the Caribbean schools may qualify for accreditation but cannot be accredited due to the LCME rules.

then, I said the following referring to your comment above.

I really do not know what the clarification from oldpro was all about.

And now you say:

The clarification is because you said the schools could not be comparable to US schools.

Where in hell do I say that the schools "could not be comparable" ? If you want to start arguments, at least make some sense..
 
Sorry folks, this whole thread goes nowhere, and appears more like bickering at times.

Best wishes again !!
 
olpro, you really have a problem with interpretation and i am finding you argumentative beyond reason. Just so that you understand, I am going to explain it very carefully with this last attempt, hoping that you can see that some of your points are unnecessary and make no sense:

I SAID



To which you replied:



then, I said the following referring to your comment above.



And now you say:



Where in hell do I say that the schools "could not be comparable" ? If you want to start arguments, at least make some sense..


SO you did not post this? Its clearly said!

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=6475201&postcount=50

....................

There is nothing short sighted nor biased about that. To suggest that any of these schools even compare to an american school is absolutely ridiculous. Are you forgetting the fact that these schools can not even sustain their students the whole 4 years and have desperately lobbied through the years to gain access to the US or UK schools and hospitals for their clinical rotations?................................


Plain and simple folks he did say it. :smuggrin:

If the schools where not comparable to US schools then the states that License the grads under the clause "The school must be equal to US schools" seems to argue that the schools are Comparable.
 
He is right this thread is going no where, I just cannot stand people who post like they know it all.

I know I do not. ( But I'm getting there LOL)
 
No flaming necessary. You're going to be a DO, so your "professional" life will punish you more than we ever could.:laugh:




Ah yes, another brilliant post from Caribbean student/grad McGillGrad. Funny thing is, I have spent a career (going on a quarter century) as a D.O. E.R. doc working in M.D. institutions, and have yet to be "punished". Of course I have a little more experience in Medicine than you, although no doubt your clueless observations probably seem quite clever to you. In fact, my medical career has been a wonderful experience. Your verbal diarrhea when it comes to your smug comments about D.O.'s reminds me of a frog croaking at the bottom of a deep well. No one much cares one way or the other, and in essence almost everyone knows it's nonsense.

And by the way, the Head of our E.R. (and for my money the best E.R. doc on staff), is a 1986 grad of SGU. He is also one of the finest people (physician or "civilian", that I have ever worked with. McGillGrad is just another example that you can find jerks anywhere you look, AMD, D.O. or from the Caribbean. And I have worked with sterling examples of top notch physicians from 3 of the Caribbean schools as well. McGillGrad, as Don Rickles used to say "Man, you got a lotta guts".
 
SOMEWHERE HERE "GOLFPROSYCGUY" WROTE

I'm laughing my As$ off reading it. God, i can't believe people buy into this crap.

I am currently in the match for residency and am a 4th year at SGU. everywhere I have interviewed no one cares if you went to SGU or are an american school, unless you want something super competitive and the
program is IV leauge.

Just like the step 2 CS being pass/fail why would it matter if step 1 and step 2ck are pass fail. If you pass it thats all that matters.

Guys, just go to med school and study your asses off. Dont worry about all this bull$hit that makes no difference.
GOd where do you people come from???lol....



folks ..........this is by far the most simple and accurate statement yet ....remember ,,,,,,in reaching a hypothesis make as few assumptions as possible "OKHAM"
 
DO bashing is a little over the top, the study about IMG stigmas was regarding Australia. That country only recently began allowing foreign doctors to practice medicine. An Australian trained doctor would probably also himself be hit with a stigma when going to North America.
 
^^^ Disagree with the above. The stigma in North America is not carried so much by natives that graduate from a school in their native country. If you are from Burundi and went to med school in Burundi ..what could be wrong with that? You are just another US inmigrant. I think the whole issue has to do with people that leave the US to go elsewhere because they could not be meet the standards for a US admission. That's the stigma. Silly, unfair, but there.
 
^^^ Disagree with the above. The stigma in North America is not carried so much by natives that graduate from a school in their native country. If you are from Burundi and went to med school in Burundi ..what could be wrong with that? You are just another US inmigrant. I think the whole issue has to do with people that leave the US to go elsewhere because they could not be meet the standards for a US admission. That's the stigma. Silly, unfair, but there.

I disagree with the above too, I think you missed the point, posting a link to an Australian blog about Australian FMG's is a stretch to prove what broadly does not exist in the USA, it only seems to exist on SDN and in your tiny circle.

DO bashing is a little over the top, the study about IMG stigmas was regarding Australia. That country only recently began allowing foreign doctors to practice medicine. An Australian trained doctor would probably also himself be hit with a stigma when going to North America.
Yesterday 05:05 PM

You cannot say that what happens in Australia is the same as the USA, they are not the same

If this stigma was real then there would not be Caribbean Grads as Residency program directors, At Harvard, At Johns Hopkins, As Surgeons, ect ect ect........... Its just a myth that the stigma is that great, I know this to be true

In my opinion small minds spin this all over the internet.
 
If this stigma was real then there would not be Caribbean Grads as Residency program directors, At Harvard, At Johns Hopkins, As Surgeons, ect ect ect........... Its just a myth that the stigma is that great, I know this to be true/

oldpro, you need to know first the definition of stigma. Stigma is a "negative attitude", the phenomenon whereby an individual with an attribute, which is discredited by his/her society, is rejected to some extend as a result of the attribute. Stigma is a "mark" and that was the origin of the word.

Stigma does not equate failure. Stigma is not a MYTH. You can be a Program Director of wherever you want, and still carry a "stigma" of whatever. By the way, I think that it is you who happens to be in a very tiny circle. Get out of it and you will see what most people think of the "stigma" we are talking about here.

Are caribbean students discriminated against? Yes!... Because they are "stigmatized"..

In my opinion small minds spin this all over the internet

Yes....and a mind is a terrible thing to waste.
 
oldpro, you need to know first the definition of stigma. Stigma is a "negative attitude", the phenomenon whereby an individual with an attribute, which is discredited by his/her society, is rejected to some extend as a result of the attribute. Stigma is a "mark" and that was the origin of the word.

Stigma does not equate failure. Stigma is not a MYTH. You can be a Program Director of wherever you want, and still carry a "stigma" of whatever. By the way, I think that it is you who happens to be in a very tiny circle. Get out of it and you will see what most people think of the "stigma" we are talking about here.

Are caribbean students discriminated against? Yes!... Because they are "stigmatized"..



Yes....and a mind is a terrible thing to waste.

I'm so tired of you and this, Look I understand the definition.

I have not seen this "myth" of stigma in my 20 years of medicine except on SDN

There I repeated it. You tend to repeat and repeat so I repeated what I believe to be true from my own experience up and down the east coast.

I cannot help it if you have a different experience in your limited time and tiny circle you enjoy.

As I said before the Hundreds of other Physicians I know and have come across have little Bias towards Caribbean students especially since some of these DOCs are Caribbean Grads!

What one told me was 20 years ago there was a big "Stigma" now there is NONE

Like I said NONE,

20 years ago there was a Big stigma with DO and now there is NONE

Please understand.

If you want I can start to define words in your posts too.:smuggrin:

you need to know first the definition of stigma. Stigma is a "negative attitude", the phenomenon whereby an individual with an attribute, which is discredited by his/her society, is rejected to some extend as a result of the attribute. Stigma is a "mark" and that was the origin of the word.
this is the best part, If a Doc is a Program DIrector of a residency program ( ie: teaching faculty attending) and is a Surgeon (Attending) how is there any stigma? None they are Licensed and Attending Docs from the Caribbean they have not been "discredited" they have not been "rejected", they have been accepted

definition
ac·cept·ed (k-sptd)
adj.
Widely encountered, used, or recognized

So if they have been accepted by programs and Hospitals and thousands upon thousands of patients I think this stigma does not exist except when you come to SDN even then "stigma" is a belief not a fact

Its a myth , definition:
myth (mth)
n.
1.
a. A traditional, typically ancient story dealing with supernatural beings, ancestors, or heroes that serves as a fundamental type in the worldview of a people, as by explaining aspects of the natural world or delineating the psychology, customs, or ideals of society: the myth of Eros and Psyche; a creation myth.
b. Such stories considered as a group: the realm of myth.
2. A popular belief or story that has become associated with a person, institution, or occurrence, especially one considered to illustrate a cultural ideal: a star whose fame turned her into a myth; the pioneer myth of suburbia.
3. A fiction or half-truth, especially one that forms part of an ideology.
4. A fictitious story, person, or thing
: "German artillery superiority on the Western Front was a myth" Leon Wolff.
See #3 and 4 thats how I was using it

the Caribbean stigma is a myth.

Clear?
 
I have not seen this "myth" of stigma in my 20 years of medicine except on SDN.

the Caribbean stigma is a myth.

Oldpro, I applaud you for your tenacity in standing up for us Caribbean grads. Admittedly, however, there is a bit of stigma toward Caribbean grads. For the most part, though, it applies to those grads who are trying to get into residency. Residency program directors will give preference to US grads over Caribbean grads when considering applicants to their programs. That said, once you land a residency, the stigma becomes more or less a non-issue. Caribbean grads end up doing a US residency just like the US grads. Same type of training. Once a Caribbean grad does manage to become a residency program director, s/he has overcome the stigma. This is because s/he worked long and hard to get to that position. And yes, Caribbean grads do become residency directors. I met an associate director who graduated from St. Matthew's at one of the programs I interviewed this year.
 
Oldpro, I applaud you for your tenacity in standing up for us Caribbean grads. Admittedly, however, there is a bit of stigma toward Caribbean grads. For the most part, though, it applies to those grads who are trying to get into residency. Residency program directors will give preference to US grads over Caribbean grads when considering applicants to their programs. That said, once you land a residency, the stigma becomes more or less a non-issue. Caribbean grads end up doing a US residency just like the US grads. Same type of training. Once a Caribbean grad does manage to become a residency program director, s/he has overcome the stigma. This is because s/he worked long and hard to get to that position. And yes, Caribbean grads do become residency directors. I met an associate director who graduated from St. Matthew's at one of the programs I interviewed this year.

Yes I will admit to this, I believe this exists, but Brainbuff wants us to believe the "Stigma" follows us forever, this is untrue in reality.

Thanks top gun I went a little far ;)
 
Are you in denial? Blind? Or do you just refuse to see the truth? Look at avg. board scores of US MD grads vs. FMGs. Most US MD schools have a 1st time step 1 pass rate of ~95%. FMGs closer to ~50%. And you think that Caribbean education is equal to US? Go to USMLEs website. Its all there. Let me guess. Now you are going to tell me that Step 1 does not make a good doctor. You are right. It makes great doctors. The step distinguishes the great docs from the crappy docs and everything between. Every now and again a few Caribbean students will produce some great scores, but I'm willing to bet that they are self made success stories, and not product of the typical Caribbean experience.

"US grads should not have any better chance at a residency then fully qualified FMG's I think this is missed by all the bleeding hearts out there. Equal opportunity should be the order of the day for qualified grads."

Pretty bold statement!

Why shouldn't they? With the exception of the few FMGs mentioned above, US MD grads have better board scores, higher pass rates, less remediation, lower attrition rates, more EC resources (i.e. research opportunities, better hospital rotations), better contacts......the list goes on. These are the very same things that PDs look for in residents.

It is fairly obvious that what I say is true since US grads do get the residency spots over most (~85-90%) of FMGs. That alone must prove that US education is considered superior to Caribbean in the eyes of most PDs!

Ok. I'm done. Flame on!!!!!!!:smuggrin:


dude, that is not oldpro's point, you are comparing the OVERALL passing rate and others. What oldpro saying is when you compared individually lets say both get same mark on USMLE should have same chance at the residency spot without other strings attached to it. because if the residency program soo want to use the USMLE as the standard then why the same score from two different schools should not have same chance? get it? i don't think oldpro is denying that USMD schools have more qualifying students.

let me just give you an example regarding my high school AP class. Our school has 10 AP calc class and passing rate of 85% while the other school have 95% passing but only 2 AP calc class. if you think of the volume, definitely our school outproduce # of people who pass the class % wise might look ugly. i am sure among that 85% there are plenty of 5 and 4. but that 95% might contain all 3's just to be a bit extreme in the example to make my point across.

so when you are comparing your 95% to ~50% i am sure there are some individuals from that 50% might outscore bunch of USMD's students in that 95%. so why should those people who outperform not have equal or better chance of getting the residency if the test is sooo standardized or widely used to place the residency? just because they are IMG, their results on USMLE means nothing is not right think about it hard and it is a discrimination. if you can't still picture this think of the oppression on colored folks, just because of the color of their skin, they can't vote even if you are citizen of the states? IMG's can't get into the same res idence program with the same score on USMLE just because they didn't go to USMD is just not right.

oldpro is not defending cuz he/she goes to caribb school. i have no attachment and i see the point. all i care is to practice medicine i could care less where i get the degree from as long as i am competent in what i do.
 
I would be curious to see some data on this. Do those with similar scores from the carribean adn from US schools fare the same?

I bet it would be similar for the lower scores but I would feel there would be a glass ceiling for those higher scores. Got nothing to back this up though. Anyone have some data
 
I would be curious to see some data on this. Do those with similar scores from the carribean adn from US schools fare the same?

I bet it would be similar for the lower scores but I would feel there would be a glass ceiling for those higher scores. Got nothing to back this up though. Anyone have some data


IN reality, if all things are equal, then it is up to the interview or the image the program wants to project to future applicants (i.e. IMG-friendly or IMG-hostile...ect).

And the glass ceilings not only applies to Carib students. They apply to all of the non-top-tier schools. If all things are equal, would you rather have a Johns Hopkins resident or a 'podunk state school' resident? You don't have to answer...it was rhetorical.
 
I would be curious to see some data on this. Do those with similar scores from the carribean adn from US schools fare the same?

I bet it would be similar for the lower scores but I would feel there would be a glass ceiling for those higher scores. Got nothing to back this up though. Anyone have some data

www.nrmp.org has match data on the average scores for those that matched in each specialty. Unfortunately the analysis on step scores doesn't break down US students vs US IMG's. It only breaks US students vs independent applicants, which includes anyone but US grads.
 
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