end of carib schools???

[schoup]

what do you guys think is the future of caribbean schools?
It wont affect me i am assuming because i am a third year with only 15 months to go...but what about the future students..as in 2012 and beyond. The reason I am writing this is because i realized something. Also with the massive DO school enrollment increases as well as the new opening of DO schools..not to mention MD schools in the US are increasing enrollment and a few new MD schools are starting up in 2010..i think unfortunately this could be the last 5-10 years for caribbean schools. however the basis of my argument is strong if 1) the step 1 and 2 get combined and IS pass fail
any thoughts?

Three dangers to the future of Caribbean schools in my opinion:

1)The credit crunch: alot of students are having real difficulties getting loans. The lending standards have really tightened and many have pulled out of the Caribbean market and even the US undergrad/grad market. This won't effect Saba, AUC,Ross, SGU b/c they have access to federal loans. They are the only 4 Caribbean schools that do.

2)More states are taking on the California list for approved and dissaproved schools. Which limits the states some graduates of Caribbean schools can practice in. Again this doesn't effect well established schools like Saba,Ross, AUC, SGU b/c they have 50 state approval or are case by case in harder licensure sates such as TX

3)The new US schools and DO schools effect depends on two factors IMO. If the US government increases residency spots, as they should based on US population growth it will have little effect. If they don't then it will effect the lower tier schools first, as they tend to take lower qualified applicants.

IMO, in general the established schools AUC,Saba,Ross, SGU will be the last to be effected by any changes, as they have inherent advanatgses of 50 state licensure, federal loans, and in general higher standards for those they accept as students. They have many practicing alums and have sound finances. The abundance of new schools started since 2000 will probably be in trouble, I see many of them closing.

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[Instatewaiter]

yup, seen that

 

[Robotjim]

Boy o Boy...
I sure hate reading these. I am in the middle of applying to Ross, SGU, Saba and AUC. I know that these schools will be "last to be affected" but I can't help but to be worried that I could potentially graduate with a very very large financial debt and no way to practice medicine. What do you guys/gals think is the worst case scenario? John Doe MD --the highschool teacher? Do you think that even the traditionally less competitive specialties(i.e family practice, internal medicine) will become difficult to for FMG's to match into?

Thanks for letting vent everyone... Also, if you are a current or former Caribbean student please tell me about your school and what you thought of your experience.

Thanks again,
Jimmy

 

[Instatewaiter]

Worst case scenario is you dont get your MD b/c you either didnt pass or dropped out.

By the time you get through med school, there wont be a terribly significant increase in enrollment at MD or DO mainland schools so the competition for residency slots wont be much more than it is now.

In 10 years who knows but dont expect the status quo to be changed significantly.

As midlevels begin to encroach more into the primary care fields and as payment for non-procedure based specialties declines, you are going to see fewer US students wanting to go into primary care. FM and possibly peds will become less desirable. IM probably will stay the same since it is the jumping off point for a lot of subspecialties.

 

[schoup]

There are 30+ new US med schools in the works guys. Residency slots are not increasing any time soon.

Thirty new medical schools is a TON of graduates, and since we're all competing for the same residency slots, the inevitable conclusion is that FMGs are going to be pushed out in record numbers.

You'd better hope Congress votes to authorize CMS to increase funding for residency slots.

The actual AAMC release on the plans for new medical schools. The report is worth reading.
https://services.aamc.org/Publicatio...279&pdf_id=111


Brief synopsis:
The AAMC goal was a 21% increase in US graduates from 2002-2003 enrollment level by 2012-2013. 16% of the 21 % increase is from existing schools by raising the average class size from 132 to 152 over a 10 year period, avergaes 2 more students per class per year.

As as of 2007-2008 enrollment levels they have increased spots from the 2002-2003 baseline by 1,217(7.4%) of the 2,635 goal(16%). The other 5% of the 21% goal is from new schools, 786 new spots by 2013. The 786 does not have all the new schools running at max capacity as they are building their classes size over time in many cases. There are also 5 schools planning to open after the 2012-2013 academic year so the spots will continue to increase.

 

[preDPM]

I found the following posted by sum1 with insider contacts it appears. The end of all carib schools even Ross, AUC and SABA is near. The only schools that will survive are SGU and UWI.

http://www.valuemd.com/international-university-health-sciences-iuhs/158324-intoduction-iuhs.html

 

[schoup]

I found the following posted by sum1 with insider contacts it appears. The end of all carib schools even Ross, AUC and SABA is near. The only schools that will survive are SGU and UWI.

http://www.valuemd.com/international-university-health-sciences-iuhs/158324-intoduction-iuhs.html

Insider contacts? Right.
Do some research, the statement is ludicrous. that the end of all carib schools is near. Ross, Saba, AUC, SGU have 50 state approval. The CA list has no effect on them and they also have federal loans, all except Saba.

 

[billydoc]

SABA has no federal loans. It always gets lumped in "Big 4", which referres to nothing more than four schools with CMB (Cali) approval. Thus, potential licensure in all 50 States.

 

[Top Gun]

Yeah right, the end of all carib schools is near. If the guy who posted that information (if you can call it that, a more accurate term is probably misinformation) hadn't been permanently banned from VMD, he might actually be credible. What he posted is nothing more than a trolling attempt.

 

[preDPM]

After reading that forum, I talked to people in ECFMG and some of the state boards that I am interested in and it turned out that what that person wrote in the other forum seems to be true. ECFMG told me that the rules for acceptance of a foreign med school by ECFMG may change in the future because of increasing number of "questionable" medical schools in the Caribbean and other parts of the world. Some of the state boards told me out right not to consider Carib schools and suggested I pursue DO instead in the US if my grades are good.

Some boards told me that due to the increased number of emails and phone calls they get from Carib school "students", they are getting sick of these schools and are planning to ban all the schools except SGU and UWI. So it looks like that post in the other forum is valid. I hate to see this happen and looks like some of the immature people among the Carib students are shooting themselves and the rest in the foot. People think that by complaining about other schools to these state boards or ECFMG they will make their own schools look better but what these people dont realize maybe is that state boards and ECFMG already consider ALL the Carib schools as a scam and laugh at them. This is maybe a final nail in the coffin for Carib schools except according to some boards SGU and UWI.

 

[oldpro]

Some boards told me that due to the increased number of emails and phone calls they get from Carib school "students", they are getting sick of these schools and are planning to ban all the schools except SGU and UWI.

WOW this is too funny, AUC Ross and Saba have California approval and any state that does approvals, so they get tossed out even though they have the same nods as well as ROSS and AUC are about the same age as SGU.

Also Legit Caribbean schools are the same as other chartered schools around the world, I find it hard for a state to ban a true legit school without recourse, you better believe when a school like ROSS and AUC makes millions a year that if a state would do this then it would be in the courts.

I doubt you have contacted all 50 US states and the few boards (Or one board that said this) who really said they are sick of phone calls and emails? The Clerks? They do not make the rules and laws, the rules is the board and the laws are decided by the lawmakers and it is a process, laws must be constitutional, so in short yes they can come up with some kinda law but I do not think they will, there is a primary care shortage, and unless there is a problem with the care that is delivered by FMG/Caribbean grads ( there is none I'm aware of) this is just pure BS by a lot of people who a over reacting.

 

[Instatewaiter]

yeah i'm pretty sure he was making it up to get a response out of you.

 

[oldpro]

yeah i'm pretty sure he was making it up to get a response out of you.

You know, you all get on me, why not this nonsense?

 

[jhafez87]

After reading that forum, I talked to people in ECFMG and some of the state boards that I am interested in and it turned out that what that person wrote in the other forum seems to be true. ECFMG told me that the rules for acceptance of a foreign med school by ECFMG may change in the future because of increasing number of "questionable" medical schools in the Caribbean and other parts of the world. Some of the state boards told me out right not to consider Carib schools and suggested I pursue DO instead in the US if my grades are good.

Some boards told me that due to the increased number of emails and phone calls they get from Carib school "students", they are getting sick of these schools and are planning to ban all the schools except SGU and UWI. So it looks like that post in the other forum is valid. I hate to see this happen and looks like some of the immature people among the Carib students are shooting themselves and the rest in the foot. People think that by complaining about other schools to these state boards or ECFMG they will make their own schools look better but what these people dont realize maybe is that state boards and ECFMG already consider ALL the Carib schools as a scam and laugh at them. This is maybe a final nail in the coffin for Carib schools except according to some boards SGU and UWI.

Mr. pre-podiatry student ...schools like AUC, SGU, ROSS each one of them has over 6000 physician in the U.S and been around for 30+ years teaching medicine, I DO NOT THINK IT IS THAT SIMPLE TO JUST PUT THEM AWAY LIKE THIS OR DISAPPROVE THEM.... as well as SABA. I think it is the opposite bud!! I agree that some caribbean med schools will not exist in the near future, but this will not include SGU, AUC, ROSS, SABA , MUA, AUA. These schools will continue to grow and they will not have any kind of problem....I dont know about any other med schools in the caribbean, I did not research them. so, I think that u should just worry about ur podiatry schools bud , and if it is like what u said then prove it !

 

[oldpro]

Mr. pre-podiatry student ...schools like AUC, SGU, ROSS each one of them has over 6000 physician in the U.S and been around for 30+ years teaching medicine, I DO NOT THINK IT IS THAT SIMPLE TO JUST PUT THEM AWAY LIKE THIS OR DISAPPROVE THEM.... as well as SABA. I think it is the opposite bud!! I agree that some caribbean med schools will not exist in the near future, but this will not include SGU, AUC, ROSS, SABA , MUA, AUA. These schools will continue to grow and they will not have any kind of problem....I dont know about any other med schools in the caribbean, I did not research them. so, I think that u should just worry about ur podiatry schools bud , and if it is like what u said then prove it !

WHY AUA? they are one of the Youngest Schools? They have one approval? NY or two now? I'm not sure, but they charge as much as the Big three, a bold move such a new school with no loans.

 

[jhafez87]

WHY AUA? they are one of the Youngest Schools? They have one approval? NY or two now? I'm not sure, but they charge as much as the Big three, a bold move such a new school with no loans.

u just said it, it is the youngest school and it already has NY approval. It just opened back in ?2004?, I also think it is moving up to quick because it has that *** twinning program which is a partnership with Manipal University/Kasturba Medical College that been around since 1953 and it is will known world wide one of the best medical schools. and they do have few loan lenders as well.

 

[Pathlesstrvld]

.... Some of the state boards told me out right not to consider Carib schools and suggested I pursue DO instead in the US if my grades are good.

Some boards told me that due to the increased number of emails and phone calls they get from Carib school "students", they are getting sick of these schools and are planning to ban all the schools except SGU and UWI..... state boards and ECFMG already consider ALL the Carib schools as a scam and laugh at them. This is maybe a final nail in the coffin for Carib schools except according to some boards SGU and UWI.

Of course it was only when you called or e-mailed that the "state boards" opened up and revealed their darkest conspiracy. You are the one student they are not "getting sick of". Therefore, naturally they would reveal to you exactly what they are "planning".

 

[Pathlesstrvld]

... I agree that some caribbean med schools will not exist in the near future, but this will not include SGU, AUC, ROSS, SABA , MUA, AUA. These schools will continue to grow and they will not have any kind of problem....I dont know about any other med schools in the caribbean....!

I love the subtle but bias spin, as you name the top 4 including your bottom 2 picks. But I will agree that the AUA is likely a future contender.

 

[preDPM]

Oldpro, Path.. etc, I simply wrote wat the boards i contacted had told me. No, I did not contact all boards and I did mention this in my post clearly. Also I did not say that SGU and UWI will not be accepted, in fact the boards seem to favor only these 2 schools in the Carib. Believe me, I wish to see some of the low tier Carib schools with low tuition survive so that I can apply to those schools as I am not in a position to take on a huge loan by going to SGU, etc

You guys can contact ECFMG yourself and see their response. They said they may change the laws like I mentioned. There aint anything u guys can gain by criticizing me. Like I said I hope there will be at least some low tuition Carib schools left but seems to be unlikely in the future.

 

[oldpro]

Oldpro, Path.. etc, I simply wrote wat the boards i contacted had told me. No, I did not contact all boards and I did mention this in my post clearly. Also I did not say that SGU and UWI will not be accepted, in fact the boards seem to favor only these 2 schools in the Carib. Believe me, I wish to see some of the low tier Carib schools with low tuition survive so that I can apply to those schools as I am not in a position to take on a huge loan by going to SGU, etc

You guys can contact ECFMG yourself and see their response. They said they may change the laws like I mentioned. There aint anything u guys can gain by criticizing me. Like I said I hope there will be at least some low tuition Carib schools left but seems to be unlikely in the future.

The problem is this is wild and unsupported by the information printed, ECMFG has nothing to do with Laws, ECMFG certifies, they are a certification committee it is what it stands for, they have already changed how they certify a FMG, in fact there are a couple of new Caribbean schools who cannot get listed on IMED and thus have no ECMFG certification.

Schools are approved by each state not by a central body in the USA.

AUC and ROSS are about the same age as SGU it is not believable and in fact you look foolish to say that they would not be accepted like SGU, UWI is not the same, UWI is a normal public college and Medical school unlike the others, UNIBE is also like UWI and would also be acceptable, the problem is you are calling and talking to who???? Some clerk and for the last time some gossip from a clerk is not the same as the boards, it is not something I would put in print, until the ECMFG and or a state board makes an official announcement nothing has happened.

I find very hard to believe this would happen.

 

[oldpro]

u just said it, it is the youngest school and it already has NY approval. It just opened back in ?2004?, I also think it is moving up to quick because it has that *** twinning program which is a partnership with Manipal University/Kasturba Medical College that been around since 1953 and it is will known world wide one of the best medical schools. and they do have few loan lenders as well.

The *** twining program has problems though it has been used to scam US federal loan money, As far as moving up? I guess I have nothing against them, but I thought it was too much for a young school to raise tuition then raise it again.... for what? A school that is not approved by all 50, with only 45 states for possible practice, unless and until California approval I would not rank this school with the big 4.

If you could attend one of the Big three you are way better to do that.

 

[schoup]

The *** twining program has problems though it has been used to scam US federal loan money, As far as moving up? I guess I have nothing against them, but I thought it was too much for a young school to raise tuition then raise it again.... for what? A school that is not approved by all 50, with only 45 states for possible practice, unless and until California approval I would not rank this school with the big 4.

If you could attend one of the Big three you are way better to do that.

If did some research and AUA has started paperwork for CA approval. According to their website it appears they are soon to be hitting 900 students and will 150+ students in each of their next few graduating classes.

 

[Pathlesstrvld]

Three dangers to the future of Caribbean schools in my opinion:.

SABA does not have federal loans. AUC, ROSS, and SGU were grandfathered, before federal loans were pulled out of the Caribbean back in the early 90s. Furthermore, as the scrutiny of Caribbean medical schools increases, people will start to ask whether students attending those schools considered "foreign" or "off-shore", should be supported by federal aid.
BTW, there are close to 300, 000, 000 people living in America, including the rest of the world. If you believe that some of the smaller tier schools will not be able to attract approximately 150-200 students every semester, who are willing to drop around 10Gs per semester then you are naive at best.

4 states have been added to that list in the last 4 years, and perhaps 4 more will show up in the next 4 years. But before 1000s of students with a combined of millions in debt start hiring lawyers, a central accreditation body will be established equivalent to LCME, in order ensure quality control in Caribbean medical education. This will create a wash-out effect for many lower tier schools, but it will also ensure the survival of others. BTW, the only school that was evaluated and approved by the state of California in the last 10 years is SABA university. Therefore, dont be surprised that if a central accrediting body is established, some schools maybe slapped with a probationary status from the start.

 

[oldpro]

If did some research and AUA has started paperwork for CA approval. According to their website it appears they are soon to be hitting 900 students and will 150+ students in each of their next few graduating classes.

If you do research you would also know that California has had problems approving new schools in the past, St. Matthews for one. Also California approval can be lost look at Spartan.

I do not think it is ok that AUA used *** to get US federal loans for them also. It seems like if investigated it may be a problem?

Look I have nothing against AUA on fact I have told people to look into going there, but you have to remember it is a private school out for our money.

How can you be sure they are looking out for our best interests?

 

[schoup]

If you do research you would also know that California has had problems approving new schools in the past, St. Matthews for one. Also California approval can be lost look at Spartan.?

AUA is doing what it takes to get approval from CA. Most schools don't even try, as they can't even get NY. They were the quickest new school to get NY, there are schools that have been around well before them that don't have NY.

Spartan is a joke and always has been a joke.

I do not think it is ok that AUA used *** to get US federal loans for them also. It seems like if investigated it may be a problem??

AUA doesn't get federal loans through KMC.

 

[oldpro]

AUA is doing what it takes to get approval from CA. Most schools don't even try, as they can't even get NY. They were the quickest new school to get NY, there are schools that have been around well before them that don't have NY.

Spartan is a joke and always has been a joke.




AUA doesn't get federal loans through KMC.

They did I remember, it was for the 1st year. It was not that long ago.