Engineer heading towards Neuroscience Ph.D, maybe MD?

[Newmanium]

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I'm an engineer who's been caring for a close family member with mental illness for the past 3+ years (fairly intense, this has dramatically changed my life and been extremely difficult at times), and as I've gone through the process with doctors and seeing this person suffer, I've recently made up my mind that I'm going to devote the rest of my life to doing whatever I can to fight this disease (schizophrenia).

I'm fairly new to the whole field, and while I did well in school (3.8+), I never was interested in engineering research and don't much research experience at all (a few things I could write down, nothing substantial). From what I can tell so far, the best route for me to pursue would be a Neuroscience Ph.D., and in order to head that route, I'm going to need some research experience.

This is kind of a daunting task I'm setting out on, giving up a reasonably well-paying, secure, job, in order to pursue a dream. Part of me thinks I'm crazy, but I am convinced 100% that this is what I want to spend my life doing (the details I'm a little more fuzzy on - it's like I want to climb Everest, but I'm open to suggestions for the best way up the mountain).

From what I can tell, the next logical step would be to quit my job, and head back to undergrad for a degree in Biochemistry. That would give me a chance to start doing research and see how I like it, plus I can see if I can somehow weasel my way into the local medical school's neuroscience facility for some volunteer/low-level jobs. I can get a undergrad degree in about 2 years from what I can tell, and I can also get a master's for some more research experience if I feel I need it (unsaid in all this - I can easily drop out if I realize that I made a huge mistake).

Does anybody here know much about what is required to get into reputable Neuroscience Ph.D. programs? I would like to get into a school with a large focus on schizophrenia, which limits me to mainly the large programs (UC San Diego, Johns Hopkins, Harvard, Penn, Stanford, etc.). How competitive is it to get into programs like this? Is this a ridiculous dream? I'm determined to do this no matter what it takes, but I need to know what I'm up against.


I'm also at least pondering whether there is any benefit to going a MSTP route instead - I'm not certain yet whether I will be more interested in basic or clinical research, so I'd like to keep my options open. My plan is to get into this biochemistry program, and then do some clinical volunteer work, maybe some shadowing, to get some more ideas.


Is there anything I'm missing? Is there any other route for people like me who already have a bachelor's, but are switching fields and need more research experience? It's painful returning to undergrad, but from what I can tell - that is my only option.

Feedback and any tips would be greatly appreciated - this is the biggest decision I've made in my life, and for the first time I'm pursuing something I am 110% passionate about. Let me put it this way - if I don't get into a neuroscience program, I will find a way to do research from home if I have to!

 

[viostorm]

If you truly want to fight the disease I would suggest being a physician.

I left my phd because you never really "help" people directly. Was always working on some stupid project that would be thrown away. MD's are on the front line.

MD's can do research, they can prescribe meds, treat patients. Much more versitile degree. And honestly, MD's know a lot more about the disease process in general, neuroscience people are really limited in their clinical expertise.

All the big grants, clinical trials are run by MD's, or at least have to have MD's on board to get funding.

 

[spreebee]

I'm an engineer who's been caring for a close family member with mental illness for the past 3+ years (fairly intense, this has dramatically changed my life and been extremely difficult at times), and as I've gone through the process with doctors and seeing this person suffer, I've recently made up my mind that I'm going to devote the rest of my life to doing whatever I can to fight this disease (schizophrenia).

I'm fairly new to the whole field, and while I did well in school (3.8+), I never was interested in engineering research and don't much research experience at all (a few things I could write down, nothing substantial). From what I can tell so far, the best route for me to pursue would be a Neuroscience Ph.D., and in order to head that route, I'm going to need some research experience.

This is kind of a daunting task I'm setting out on, giving up a reasonably well-paying, secure, job, in order to pursue a dream. Part of me thinks I'm crazy, but I am convinced 100% that this is what I want to spend my life doing (the details I'm a little more fuzzy on - it's like I want to climb Everest, but I'm open to suggestions for the best way up the mountain).

From what I can tell, the next logical step would be to quit my job, and head back to undergrad for a degree in Biochemistry. That would give me a chance to start doing research and see how I like it, plus I can see if I can somehow weasel my way into the local medical school's neuroscience facility for some volunteer/low-level jobs. I can get a undergrad degree in about 2 years from what I can tell, and I can also get a master's for some more research experience if I feel I need it (unsaid in all this - I can easily drop out if I realize that I made a huge mistake).

Does anybody here know much about what is required to get into reputable Neuroscience Ph.D. programs? I would like to get into a school with a large focus on schizophrenia, which limits me to mainly the large programs (UC San Diego, Johns Hopkins, Harvard, Penn, Stanford, etc.). How competitive is it to get into programs like this? Is this a ridiculous dream? I'm determined to do this no matter what it takes, but I need to know what I'm up against.


I'm also at least pondering whether there is any benefit to going a MSTP route instead - I'm not certain yet whether I will be more interested in basic or clinical research, so I'd like to keep my options open. My plan is to get into this biochemistry program, and then do some clinical volunteer work, maybe some shadowing, to get some more ideas.


Is there anything I'm missing? Is there any other route for people like me who already have a bachelor's, but are switching fields and need more research experience? It's painful returning to undergrad, but from what I can tell - that is my only option.

Feedback and any tips would be greatly appreciated - this is the biggest decision I've made in my life, and for the first time I'm pursuing something I am 110% passionate about. Let me put it this way - if I don't get into a neuroscience program, I will find a way to do research from home if I have to!

If you get a Neuroscience pHD you will learn in-depth knowledge in both the classroom and lab that not every M.D. recieves... I recommend doing a PHD/M.D. program somewhere... If not neuroscience, in the biomedical science or something... Personally, I know an M.D. that decided to get his pHD to learn in-depth lab techniques and a little bit more in-depth level of schooling... Unless your attending Johns Hopkins or Harvard, the average medical school isn't going to teach you unfactual in-depth detail that might be true where's pHD's learn all the theories and can test them in the lab... If your both a pHD and M.D., you can run clinical trials and also experiment on your patients with more confidence... In medical school, you learn a huge amount of basic information with some depth... A pHD in neuroscience is a concentrated area where you learn years of indepth information about the brain and Nervous system... You don't spend 4 years of medical school learning about the brain as indepth as a PHD in Neuroscience constantly doing lab experiments on brain tissue, etc... Take care...

 

[sunshinesunny]

Umm sounds interesting to me. You say you are an engineer but you did not mention exactly whats your field. Any way I feel you should go for an MD or an MD/PHD.

 

[Newmanium]

Thanks for the feedback - so does going back to undergrad to fulfill pre-recs and get research experience sound like the logical next step? As much as I feel time is of the essence, I realize this is going to be a long haul...

There's a part of me that wonders if a non-traditional student like me, no matter what I do, will be a competitive candidate for a MSTP program - I looked over some of the profiles on the MDapplicants web site, and they are fairly sobering.

Oh well, one step at a time - thanks for some feedback. I don't why all this stuff is so competitive, if I didn't have a driving passion to fight this disease - there's no way I'd pick this career just for a career's sake.

 

[Bubblehead-to-MD]

Thanks for the feedback - so does going back to undergrad to fulfill pre-recs and get research experience sound like the logical next step? As much as I feel time is of the essence, I realize this is going to be a long haul...

There's a part of me that wonders if a non-traditional student like me, no matter what I do, will be a competitive candidate for a MSTP program - I looked over some of the profiles on the MDapplicants web site, and they are fairly sobering.

Oh well, one step at a time - thanks for some feedback. I don't why all this stuff is so competitive, if I didn't have a driving passion to fight this disease - there's no way I'd pick this career just for a career's sake.

This is an excellent point. With the funding that goes along with the MSTP, I tend to think the medical schools will be looking more for the bright, young individual that has a demonstrated interest/passion for research. That being said, you could pursue admission to medical school as a MD-only applicant, and then apply to the PhD program during your first or second year. You will not receive the funding that a MSTP student does, but at least you will still be able to accomplish your goals.

Best of luck to you!

EDIT: By the way, I met a couple of people along the interview trail this year that were in the process of completing their PhD in Neuro, so you could pursue the PhD first. There are many ways to skin this cat. I personally think you should pursue admission to med school first - I think admission only gets more difficult as you get older.

 

[relentless11]

Does anybody here know much about what is required to get into reputable Neuroscience Ph.D. programs? I would like to get into a school with a large focus on schizophrenia, which limits me to mainly the large programs (UC San Diego, Johns Hopkins, Harvard, Penn, Stanford, etc.). How competitive is it to get into programs like this? Is this a ridiculous dream? I'm determined to do this no matter what it takes, but I need to know what I'm up against.

Getting into graduate school is more dependent on your previous research experience. Obviously you have to meet some quantitative requirements such as GPA. UC's require you to have at least a 3.0 undergraduate GPA to get in. All PhD programs want to see that you have the capacity to finish. They do not want to waste their money on someone who ends bailing out for a masters. PhD students are expensive investments for the school given the resources put into the program including salary and fee remission.

From my experience, the major component that got me into UC Davis' graduate program was my research experience. I had 15-19 publications at the time of application, and 4 years of clinical research experience. That sold them hands down. As for clinical vs. basic science research, that is up to you, and what you want to do in the future. I feel that its good to have both skills. I mainly do clinical research, but I have extensive training in basic science research as well. I like both, but since I am going the MD route, I can relate more to clinical research.

If you truly want to fight the disease I would suggest being a physician.

I left my phd because you never really "help" people directly. Was always working on some stupid project that would be thrown away. MD's are on the front line.

MD's can do research, they can prescribe meds, treat patients. Much more versitile degree. And honestly, MD's know a lot more about the disease process in general, neuroscience people are really limited in their clinical expertise.

All the big grants, clinical trials are run by MD's, or at least have to have MD's on board to get funding.

I agree that MD's can PRACTICE medicine, but helping is relative. MD or PhD's don't neccessarily know more about disease processes vs. the other. No one profession is better at helping people vs. another. Its a synergy between all fields that help people. Take the artificial heart. Surgeons, pathologists, biomedical engineers (PhDs), chemists ALL play a role.

In short, we all help people in some form or another. You can help people without an MD or PhD. Last I checked, an EMT course doesn't give you a "degree". An MD ultimately gives you a LICENSE to practice medicine, but the experience you gained in being able to look at disease processes is really dependent on you, your interests and where you go.

Newmanium, I recommend broadly looking for a GOOD LAB and PI. That is what makes or breaks a PhD student. This is what decides how long they will be in the program and what kind of project they will do. If you like it, then you will get A LOT out of it, and you will have more training then most MDs in a specific area of research. An MD helps if you want to practice medicine, but it is by no means less rewarding. I can tell you from personal experience that it is a great feeling to see a clinical instrument that you help design and test being used in a hospital for diagnostic purposes. Why am I doing an MD though? I want to practice medicine (e.g.: a medical license). The ,edical training IMO is just an extension of college. Don't let people who were jaded by poor choices and bad experiences discourage getting just a PhD, an MD, or both! You should also look into something called "translational research". Thats what I do, and I screen, recruit, and test patients for my PhD thesis. As long as it is under the approved IRB protocol, I can do that without any MD intervention. So viostorms assessment of a PhD not helping people as much is somewhat misguided. However I must digress, if an interventional study is required, an MD is needed to ...well do the intervention since a PhD can't prescribe medicine. But neither can a PharmD or an RN...but can you argue that they help people. Nah😉.