ENT residency vs others

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Nsent

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What are the work weeks like during the ENT residency years?

I read the post referring on the 80 hr work week, and another about big maxillofacial cases taking 12 hours... what is an average week like? Do you often reach 80? How does the lifestyle during residency compare to other surgical subspecialties (ie neurosurgery, ortho)? ... if not generalizations, than even anecdotal stuff from your own institution would be greatly appreciated!

Thank you.

-MS3

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Your average work week would vary depending on the service you are on.

On easier rotations, I would round at 6:30-7am, be out at 5pm 3 days clinic, 2 days OR. These rotations are ~ 1/2 of our training.

Other rotations in at 6a out at 7-10pm, 1 day clinic 4 days OR. Close to 80 hour rule, rarely over - never more than 80 when averaged out over 4 weeks.

Call is Q6 for us, at home - usually go in 60-75% of the time. Last 2 years are backup call, have gone in 2 times in 6 months.

Residency programs vary widely in the amount of work you do - some are very light - <1 attending per resident. Some have close to 2 attendings per resident - this translates into more cases, but also more work and longer hours. Personally, I don't mind working an extra 10-15 hrs per week in residency - as a surgical trainee, what you learn in residency is key to what type of practice and the type of cases you can do once you get out. Although nearly all programs train you well to be a good surgeon, I would argue that if you are interested in more advanced cases in practice, you really need to go to a heavy surgical program. If you know you only want to do tubes, tonsils, septums, sinus and a few other smaller cases, it wouldn't hurt to go to a lighter place. If you change your mind in residency, you can fill in the gaps with a fellowship.

I've said before, the key things to look at in a residency program are ears and facial plastics. You'll get all the H&N you will want in most programs. In peds, most ENTs would only do smaller cases - tubes, tonsils, thyroglossal duct cysts, LN biopsies, etc. Airway cases and the more complex stuff really belong at a childrens hospital with a good PICU and pediatric trained anethesiologists - I do not believe it is standard of care for these types of cases to be performed in the community. Nearly all (if not all) childrens hospitals will require a peds fellowship for privileges these days. In ears, you want to have good training with chronic ears - implants are cool, but are time intensive post implant and are a money loser for a practice - hence they are sent to academic places. Unless you're doing tons of stapes in training and continue this in practice, the medical-legal climate has really given these cases to the Neurotologist. Same in facial plastics - you'll get all the trauma you need in training, but others such as rhinoplasty, blephs, rhytidectomy, etc are often weak in many programs.

Interestingly, I feel most 4th year med students look at places based on name (see otomatch.com). This is crazy IMHO. As a surgeon, you need to look at the breadth, volume and autonomy when selecting a training program, not at the NIH research rankings. If you want to do academics (which <15% of graduates eventually do pursue), you can go into this from ANY residency program. Nearly every department is recruiting. Research is nice, but a residency is to train a surgeon, not train a post-doc. I have yet to hear a patient ask how many papers an attending has published - However, I have heard them ask how many cases they have performed of a particular operation.

Leforte
 
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Thanks for your time Leforte. Your response could not have been any more helpful!

.... I already finished my surgery rotation without seeing any ENT. I've wanted neurosurg since starting med school and only recently have I considered important things like hours/family/OR time.

The hours of NS are what initially scared me off, but as I look more and more into ENT, I think it could be what I really want, for all the reasons you already know.

So if I can expect hours similar to those you described, I'm sold and need to start some ENT research ASAP.

Any other advice?? With a Step 1 >260 should i postpone step 2?
 
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Interestingly, I feel most 4th year med students look at places based on name (see otomatch.com). This is crazy IMHO. As a surgeon, you need to look at the breadth, volume and autonomy when selecting a training program, not at the NIH research rankings. If you want to do academics (which <15% of graduates eventually do pursue), you can go into this from ANY residency program.

What about fellowships? Everyone knows in IM that to get a good cards fellowship you want to be at a top IM program. Are there certain fellowships that are only accessible from "name" programs?
 
As far as fellowships - I don't believe that the place you go to really has a large impact on fellowship opportunities. For fellowships in ENT:

H&N = 1/3-1/2 fill - easy to get a fellowship. Length 1-2.5 years (most are 1 year).
Peds = 1:1 applicant to position. If you want one, I am sure you can get one. Length is 1-2 years.
Facial plastics - ~75% match. FP is more of who you know - having a FP attending at your institution and a well connected chairman is more important than the place you go to. Length = 1 year. Often pay is less than what you made as a resident and many people take out loans to get through this year.
Neurotology - again, ~75% match. In service scores and who you know (that is your attendings) seem to be more important than other things. Research more important than other fields. Between 8-16 spots depending on the year (some place match every other year). Length = 2 years.
Laryngology - it's who you know. Limited fellowships, and offer outside a match. Length = 1 year.
Rhinlogy/Sinus - Same as laryngology. Length = 1 year.

As far as jobs, there are ~250 graduates per year. Over 2000 jobs available. You can go anywhere you want right now.

Also, unlike IM - the $$$ is not significantly different for a fellowship trained person vs generalist. Yes, some pay more once you are in practice (Neurotology, Peds), but others less (H&N) and some are equal. It is very different from the $150k for an internist vs $350+ for the gastroenterologist/cardiologist.

Also, many people really don't want to do a fellowship and focus on only one aspect of our specialty. While I really enjoy ears, I wouldn't want ot do them exclusively and give up thyroids, necks, thyroplasty, etc. Many people go into our specialty for the breadth of practice.

if you've done well on Step I (which the OP has), focus on 3rd year grades and research. Do not do an away rotation at a place you really want to go - most people are better on paper than in person. It only takes one goof up - and people will remember it when they rank you. We've had some great people on paper rotate with us and were either dull as heck or so over the top as to be annoying. They would have been ranked much higher had they only interviewed.
 
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Also, many people really don't want to do a fellowship and focus on only one aspect of our specialty. While I really enjoy ears, I wouldn't want ot do them exclusively and give up thyroids, necks, thyroplasty, etc. Many people go into our specialty for the breadth of practice.

So it's not common to do a fellowship if you don't plan on making it the focus of your practice? In some surgical fields it seems like it's becoming the standard to pick up a fellowship even if you're not going to do that exclusively, especially in academics. Like if you did a facial plastics fellowship but then had a general ENT practice with some FPRS mixed in. I guess it might be more of a marketing issue for referrals than actually necessary.
 
So it's not common to do a fellowship if you don't plan on making it the focus of your practice? In some surgical fields it seems like it's becoming the standard to pick up a fellowship even if you're not going to do that exclusively, especially in academics. Like if you did a facial plastics fellowship but then had a general ENT practice with some FPRS mixed in. I guess it might be more of a marketing issue for referrals than actually necessary.

For facial plastics, that's an all-or-none decision. You can't compete as a facial plastics if you're also doing tonsils. You just can't create the office you need to compete to obtain those patients and have the typical general ENT pt walk in your office.

Imagine your 52yo wealthy female coming in for her filler injection and you've got your 52yo laryngectomized smoker walking out or her hearing the 2 yo in the room next door scream bloody murder as you try to remove some cerumen just to see if they really do have OME.

Not only the pt mix not working, but once you make the money you would with the facial plastics, you won't want to do general ENT. You can say you will, but you won't. Trust me, finer people than you (figure of speech) have tried. Moreover, these days you need to create a spa or salon type experience for these patients. Try having that overhead and simultaneously wasting non-compensated time performing an Eppley (0 dollars for that).

Now, having said that regarding facial plastics, there are plenty of people who do fellowships and then have a general practice. I've seen it with otologists, oncologists, laryngologists, rhinologists, and pediatrics etc. That's very common and can work well.

As for doing a fellowship to be competitive in a saturated market. Well, only if you realize that you likely won't be tending toward a general practice then. You'll probably be hired to work and market to your niche. It is unlikely that you'll do much general except on call in those markets. In the most saturated markets, you'll be more specialized, in the less saturated markets you certainly could end up doing more general. Really all depends on the location, but I would do my homework before accepting a fellowship for the sole reason of trying to bust into a hypercompetitive market in which you're interested.
 
It seems like fellowship training might also give you an edge if you're trying to make your way into an over-saturated market?

Only if you know the market that you really want to be it...for example, in Dallas, having an otology fellowship would not really be that helpful, as you would be competing against a number of well-known and respected academic and non-academic local otology groups (UTSW, Peters, and Owens). BUT, if you were laryngology trained and really were ready to be the voice dude of Dallas, you could do it, as Dallas is could use a really great "tertiary" laryngologist.

Trying to squeeze into some markets (LA, NYC) is going to be tough with or without fellowship training. There are tons of jobs out there in smaller markets, though.
 
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