Ent

[lulubelle]

---

Members don't see this ad.

Any advice for an aspiring ENT?

 

[neo]

it would probably help if you were more specific.

otherwise, i will offer you advice like this:

eat healthy, exercise, dont smoke, dont drink, drive safe, love deeply, enjoy life, be happy, have fun.

 

[neutropeniaboy]

Originally posted by neo
it would probably help if you were more specific.

otherwise, i will offer you advice like this:

eat healthy, exercise, dont smoke, dont drink, drive safe, love deeply, enjoy life, be happy, have fun.

And "Don't F**k with Mr. Zero."

(Kudos if you can pick the movie.)

 

[neo]

Originally posted by neutropeniaboy
And "Don't F**k with Mr. Zero."

(Kudos if you can pick the movie.)

man that's an old movie. when billy crystal met meg ryan.

can i get a cookie?

 

[lulubelle]

Is it a necessity to have clinical research experience to get accepted a match in ENT?

 

[neutropeniaboy]

Originally posted by lulubelle
Is it a necessity to have clinical research experience to get accepted a match in ENT?

No.

 

[WastingTime]

Since the other post were worthless, let me try and help if I can. Research is good for several reasons.
1) It will help you meet the attendings and residents in your home department which helps with LOR.
2) It will give you something to talk about during some of your more boring interviews. Yes, there are alot of chairman who would rather talk about your research than what you do outside of MS.
3) If you don't have the best scores or grades it will help get you a couple of extra interviews.
All of that being said just as many people match without research as with research, but its just one more way to get your foot in the door.

 

[ArrogantSurgeon]

Originally posted by WastingTime
Since the other post were worthless, let me try and help if I can. Research is good for several reasons.
1) It will help you meet the attendings and residents in your home department which helps with LOR.
2) It will give you something to talk about during some of your more boring interviews. Yes, there are alot of chairman who would rather talk about your research than what you do outside of MS.
3) If you don't have the best scores or grades it will help get you a couple of extra interviews.
All of that being said just as many people match without research as with research, but its just one more way to get your foot in the door.

Well said WT.

Research will definetly set you apart from the pack. However, I should say that it is *publications* that count and not just spending a couple of weeks during the summer as a lab rat. Publications (preferably those where you are 1st or 2nd author) show that you have actually contributed to the scientific knowledge of a certain field/specialty, and not just spent some time in a lab so you can put it on your CV. PDs are pretty good at seeing through people who rush to get some research experience late in medical school just so they can put it on their application or by chance get their name as 6th author or something on a paper because they did some mindless scutwork for the PI. The importance is to be able to *understand* fully what you were researching, even if it does not ultimately result in a publication by the time residency applications are due. But if your name appears anywhere on the article, then you must know the ins and outs of the research material in order to justify your name being there.

And if you do publish while still in med school, chances are that it will most likely come up during interviews since not many med students have publications.

 

[neutropeniaboy]

Originally posted by WastingTime
Since the other post were worthless, let me try and help if I can. Research is good for several reasons.
1) It will help you meet the attendings and residents in your home department which helps with LOR.
2) It will give you something to talk about during some of your more boring interviews. Yes, there are alot of chairman who would rather talk about your research than what you do outside of MS.
3) If you don't have the best scores or grades it will help get you a couple of extra interviews.
All of that being said just as many people match without research as with research, but its just one more way to get your foot in the door.

Thanks for posting that unparalleled view from the ivory tower. And you too, ArrogantSurgeon.

 

[voltron]

I hear you need a 597 on your step 1 to even interview at bottom schools.

 

[mary]

Hi lulubelle!
I am glad to see that other people are interested in ENT on this board. I think it is a great specialty. Have you checked out otomatch.com yet? Definitely take a look and consider going through some of the old threads to get some perspective if you are really interested in ENT. It would help to know where you are at in your training in order to give you more specific advice, also. As for research, I think that it helps show you have a genuine interest in the field and can also be interesting. I think publications are very nice, but definitely not necessary- unless you only want to go to a research/academic powerhouse. They will help in some prestigious community programs, too, but I don't think every program holds it in the same high regard- it depends on your aspirations and interests. As for other advice- talk to people involved w/ ENT at your school (attendings and residents if you have them), get good grades, do well on step 1 & 2 and try to get to know the field. Best of luck and feel free to PM me!

 

[WastingTime]

There are no community programs in ENT.

 

[Crusher]

I would count Geisenger as a community program...

 

[mary]

Loma Linda is not "technically" community, but has much less emphasis on research, although it is associated w/ the school...
THere aren't very many strictly community programs, but there are programs with less of an emphasis on research, although these programs are not as numerous as the academic ones.

 

[WastingTime]

The amount of research that is performed during residency is not how you qualify a program as community based. Every ENT program is associated with a University or Academic Center. Granted some programs have a smaller requirement for research, such as my program the reason why I am here, however, every program does have a research requirement. To graduate from a board certified residency in otolaryngology the are minimum research requirements. Even Kaiser Permanente is associated with an academic medical center, granted very loosely.

 

[mary]

Ok, ok, chill out...
You are probably right, I am just starting the application process- sorry to make such a presumptuous statement. Would you be willing to enlighten us newbies to the programs with lighter research req's? I, for one, would be greatly appreciative. Thanks for clearing up the above (unintentional) mis-statement.

 

[Crusher]

Hey Wasting Time...what about my post re: Geisinger. Supposedly they are associated with Jefferson Medical College but Jefferson has its own ENT program. Not sure how far Danville is from Philly...but surely this has to be as close to "community" as it comes in ENT....

 

[neutropeniaboy]

Originally posted by mary
Ok, ok, chill out...
You are probably right, I am just starting the application process- sorry to make such a presumptuous statement. Would you be willing to enlighten us newbies to the programs with lighter research req's? I, for one, would be greatly appreciative. Thanks for clearing up the above (unintentional) mis-statement.

Forgive me for assuming, but you may be drawing too many parallels between academic programs and their research requirements.

As has been mentioned, all ENT programs have academic partners. But the amount of emphasis placed on research is highly variable. For example, Penn has very big names in the field of otolaryngology, and as in institution, Penn places a lot of emphasis on research. You'll do (or when I interviewed there) a total of 6 months of research. There are options at places like U. Chicago, Wash U, and a couple others to do 1 or 2 years of research. Temple, which many regard as a program without much production in the area of research, requires its residents to do a total of 6 months (3+3) of research -- the same as Penn. Jefferson, which is regarded as a clinically-oriented program also requires 6 months (3+3) of research. Boston Medical, affiliated with Boston University, has huge clinical practice and requires only 3 months of research, as do Georgetown, NYEEI, and MCV. A tremendous amount of research goes on at UVA, but residents are required to do only 4 months of research.

What I mention are only the required research block(s) at these institution. That says nothing about ongoing contribution to papers or data collection if research is clinical and not basic science.

I agree with WastingTime in that there are no real community programs. Otolaryngology is a field that prides itself on the clinical and academic strength of its workforce, so you will be exposed to research and need to do it, and I suggest you do it for your own good.

 

[droliver]

I would consider Cleveland Clinic, Henry Ford, the one Kaiser program (California), & even Mayo Clinic to be community based programs.

 

[mary]

Thanks for the continued information. I am not trying to avoid doing any research- I am involved with some currently and have been since my first year of medical school, but I would not want to do an extra year or even 6 months of research unless it was a project that I was truly interested in, not just to fulfill some requirement.
(Just some thoughts for discussion- I am not against research in residency at all, just interested in others' opinions on the following...) I agree that research is very important and should definitely be a part of our training, but how many random, double-blinded, placebo controlled trials are completed in 2, 4, or even 6 months? Since I have had significant research experience in medical school (if it can be considered significant without having any publications) I am not concerned about exposure to research in my PG training. I am however, concerned about getting the most clinical and OR training possible. I think the emphasis should be on the quality of research presented, not just the length of time spent doing so. It is not that hard to get even a crappy study published if you send it to enough journals (probably not as true for ENT since it is so specialized, though). What do you guys think about this?

 

[Skylizard]

Just to post a slight clarification. Many residencies of many subspecialties are in fact "university associated/affiliated". The affiliation does not change it from community to university. If they are community programs associated/affiliated, they are still "community" and NOT a "UNIVERSITY RESIDENCY PROGRAM" regardless of how much research is required by the program. i.e. St. Joes Gsurge residency in Ann Arbor is affiliated/associated with the University of Michigan down the street. Their residents do clinical rotations at the university hospital. But, St. Joes is still community and NOT a "university program".

 

[WastingTime]

The minimal research requirements for an ENT residency program is 3 months. There are to many programs to list that only require the 3 months. However, most of the programs will list there research blocks on their individual websites, great links from scutwork.com. If a program doesn't mention its research on it's website it is probably only 3 months. You have to realize that even some of the programs that have minimal requirements have PDs that are very concerned with research. These programs are the ones that are associated with basic science laboratories. For example, I don't remember UTMB-Galvaston's exact requirements, but I do remember that they were heavlily associated with a basic science research lab doing inner ear research for NASA and Dr. Bailey expected the residents to give a substantial amount of time toward such projects. (I believe he has since retired and his protege, Dr. Calhoun has taken over)
Skylizard, true community based programs are the ones liked Spartanburg General Surgery, Orlando General Surgery, Columbia S.C. Orthopaedics and Orlando Orthopaedics, just a few examples. Granted some of the ENT programs are not as academic as others, I am just saving a potential applicant the trouble of saying he or she applied to a community program, allowing some smart arse ENT resident to point out that they are no community programs.

 

[neutropeniaboy]

Originally posted by mary
...but how many random, double-blinded, placebo controlled trials are completed in 2, 4, or even 6 months?

That's not the point, as I'm sure you can imagine. Most applicants arriving in the residency pool have not had any significant exposure to research. And I don't mean wiping agar plates for a couple of hours, a couple of times per week for 4 years of medical school. (I'm not saying that's what you did, of course.)

As someone who's done about 8 years of continuous research with publications, I can tell you that I've taken 3-4 months just to get programs off the ground or to get pilot data. And maybe that's enough for many programs: to present abstracts or interesting finds.

To return to my original point, the idea of a couple of months of research is to get familiar with research and to use the time effectively to hypothesize, explore, and report in a manner that is consistent with the scientific method. The goal isn't to get a paper in JAMA, but if you do, fab.

 

[doc05]

neutropeniaboy -

I'm considering oto-hns right now, any advice/insight you can give?

I've some research under my belt, but this was before med school (just finished ms2)...does this research "count" for residency application?

thanks

 

[neutropeniaboy]

Originally posted by doc05
neutropeniaboy -

I'm considering oto-hns right now, any advice/insight you can give?

I've some research under my belt, but this was before med school (just finished ms2)...does this research "count" for residency application?

thanks

Sure, it counts. See if you can continue it or start something else.

 

[gdtrfb]

research can be broken down into two camps: the research that is done as a side project as a med student, typically in order to pad one's application for resendicy, and the research one does as an MD/PhD, PhD, or even an MS-with-thesis student.

there is simply no comparison between the two- one can not be an independent scientist without doing years of phd level research that includes grant proposals or oral qualifying exams with major literature reviews.

neutropenia is dead right when he said it can take months (even years) to generate pilot data and get a project rolling. anyone who thinks that working full time during their summers in a lab or a clinic makes them a researcher is very niave.

its cool to get that exposure and see if research is something that you enjoy, but it is necessary to keep one's experience in perspective when going around saying "i have done research".

i am sure attendings or PD who do research can tell the difference between "little miss mini-prep" or "little mr. case study" and someone who has done some serious mol bio or clinical research that has been presented and published.