Entry level psychologist salary

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Insomniac99

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  1. Pre-Psychology
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Hello!

I have searched various websites for the median and starting salary of a clinical psychologist. I am getting various results. From 64000 to 130000
Realistically, what is the starting salary of a clinical psychologist? Forensic? Neuropsychologist?
How long does it take to reach that median 100k? Thank you.
 
Those #s seem reasonable for a general range. APA published data breaking this down further by region of the country, type of position, etc. You can probably find it on their website. Some specialties like neuro also publish this data in salary surveys. It just ranges so so much depending on so many variables.

But it is not this:

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Hahahaah. I looked up the APA one but the most recent report i found was from 2017. I just want to set myself up for realistic expectations. How long would it take to earn a salary of 100k?
 
Insomniac99 said:
Hahahaah. I looked up the APA one but the most recent report i found was from 2017. I just want to set myself up for realistic expectations. How long would it take to earn a salary of 100k?
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median $98/hr, median 35% overhead (not dynamic), 65-75% productivity/revenue generating. Look up "psychotherapy cpt". Then look CMS fee schedule. Select your preferred geographical region. Find the hourly number. "Non facility" means private practice. Now you have an hourly fee. Then look up terms like "percent billables, lawyer" or "billable hours, attorney". You'll see that NO ONE is 1000% billable. 75% billable is insane. 85%+ is basically an assistant following you around, and she hates me. Percent of time billable X fee schedule= gross revenue. Now subtract overhead.

You'll see the rate limiting steps are: hours you are capable of working, reasonable percent billable hours, hourly fee, how many hours a day you can actually find potential sources of billable hours, overhead, and...I dunno...your mom.

Find an unlimited source of patients, and your income is defined by how much you CAN work X hourly fee.

You'll notice that neuropsych makes more, but that is highly dependent upon the use of psychometricians and demand.

You'll also notice forensic peeps make more, but command a higher hourly.

3hrs/day, 7 days a week is approximately $100K gross.
 
Insomniac99 said:
How long would it take to earn a salary of 100k?
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Really variable for W-2 employed psychologists and depends on setting, specialty, geographic area, etc. $100K was my starting salary in academic medicine about a decade ago.
 
I looked up the starting salary positing for a psychologist in my state and told my husband, and he looked shocked and said “wait, thats it?”
-_-
It’s as much as he makes now without any type of college degree. But he also has to do cavity checks (works in the local jail).
 
psychlife19 said:
I looked up the starting salary positing for a psychologist in my state and told my husband, and he looked shocked and said “wait, thats it?”
-_-
It’s as much as he makes now without any type of college degree. But he also has to do cavity checks (works in the local jail).
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Has to or gets to? It's all in the perspective...
 
Keep in mind salary really depends on the area of the country you are in. 90K in many parts of the country may be equivalent to making 130+ relative to others. For what it's worth, my starting after fellowship in a coastal state was 130 (non-neuropsych) through a company doing mostly therapy, and several of my friends got offers of 140+. Sounds decent, but when you compare it to cheaper states, the money actually doesn't go very far. 100 doesn't sound like a difficult goal at all, and I think you could probably make that fairly quickly if you have a competitive background and are desirable.
 
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Agree with others that this is hugely variable. Many will break 100k with their first non-training position. I came in slightly short since I still wasn't licensed and then leapfrogged it once I was (AMC), so roughly 2-3 years out from graduation. Its generally easier if you specialize or are capable of wearing multiple hats (i.e. research, clinical, admin). That is typical among my peer group, but based on salary data clearly atypical for the field.

As PsyDr points out, a lot depends on how hard you want to work. If you are planning on PP as as <therapist> and not PP as a <business-owner who also does therapy> you will bump into limits real fast. There are ways around it (high-fee cash-only) but these are not sustainable everywhere nor necessarily easy to pull off. Certain subfields also make it easier (e.g. assessment-focused), but again - not in every market and it will take some hustle to get there.
 
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For the OP, there is no simple answer as you can see. Some may start near that number, some may get there mid career, and some may never reach it. Collecting representative data is also very difficult to do. From anecdotal experience, some top tier universities will be near that at starting. Of course, there are TT jobs that start at under 50K (data from the teaching thread). VA jobs data is out there. Top Tier AMCs with a grant is close to that starting and you will likely surpass that with a second large grant. Fully clinical jobs are most all over the place. There are numerous different pay structures for joining a practice and starting one is as variable as any other business. With private practice there may be a higher salary but no benefits, which is rarely take into consideration on surveys. Finally, as mentioned, CoL differs greatly with salary. From my anecdotal experience, the VA salaries are much better in low CoL regions than in high.

The general advice is don't get into this field for the money. I would likely be making more money at this point without all those years of lean living if I became a plumber.
 
The APA salary data from 2015 are getting a bit dated, but can still give a reasonable estimate. If I had to hazard a ridiculously over-simplified, off-the-cuff guess for "typical" starting salary, maybe $75k? As has been mentioned above, it can vary a lot depending on a number of factors, including practice setting, type of work. city/region, etc. I've seen starting offers of >$100k and of <$60k, so I basically split the difference. Looking at the GS pay scales for VA positions can also give some idea (you'd want to look at either GS12 or GS13 step 1).

As for how long until median salary hits 100k, for neuropsych (per 2015 salary data), it's somewhere between 5 and 10 years in practice (with a notable jump from years 6-10 and 11-15). But this, also, can vary substantially based on multiple factors, including (as PsyDr and others have mentioned above) how much you're willing to work. Someone could hit 100+k in their first year of practice with an 80k salaried position if they did a sufficient amount of work on nights and weekends.
 
ECPs in my area start out out around $65-$75k for pure clinical generalist work (not concluding benefits, of course) except for VAs and a major local medical company that provides therapy in-house, which will pay more for ECPs. If you’re willing to work in a prison in a small town, you can make $100k right off the bat in my state.

Private practice is harder to predict because business costs, cancellations/vacation time taken, and lack of benefits pull down the salary if that’s your main stream of income, and different areas have different SES demographics and rent costs.
 
I want to thank everyone for their in depth answers, I truly appreciate it.
 
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AcronymAllergy said:
Depending on which part of TX, finding an entry-level job starting at $90-100k may not be particularly difficult.
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The cities tend to have entry level salaries that would get close/surpass that. The rural areas are hit or miss. Some may due to hard to fill spots.
 
thebalmofhurtminds said:
The cities tend to have entry level salaries that would get close/surpass that. The rural areas are hit or miss. Some may due to hard to fill spots.
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But then you have to live in Texas. Eww. 🙂
 
WisNeuro said:
But then you have to live in Texas. Eww. 🙂
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Well, to be fair, they do have no state income tax. And decent BBQ. But you probably pay for that (and more) in property tax, wasted gas sitting in traffic, and having to deal with the heat.

Edit: but yes, to redirect myself to the topic at hand, I saw multiple positions in/around big cities in TX that started at $100k+ when I was job hunting at the end of fellowship. I ultimately ended up somewhere else, but the pay in TX would've been better, at least initially.
 
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I am really surprised to hear that someone was offered a starting salary of 130K or 140K. I would not say that is the norm, in my experience and the experience of friends from various backgrounds in psychology. I started at an academic hospital in NYC and made 87K. After less then a year there I left - the environment (staff, facilities) were horrible and the cost of living atrocious. I wised up quickly to the fact that they did not give raises for anyone until they had been there six years. I left for a VA in the NYC metro area and busted through to 105K. Add on my private practice salary (on the side) and I make 120K or more.

I have one friend who works for 120K at a major hospital. But she is a slave to RVU’s, and I would not do that for an easy amount of money...
 
Hope4Grad said:
I have one friend who works for 120K at a major hospital. But she is a slave to RVU’s, and I would not do that for an easy amount of money...
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Definitely depends on the hospital. I'm probably an outlier, but am in a major hospital, work about 30 hours a week (pre-covid) and am into six figures. No one has asked about my RVUs in 3 years.
 
Hope4Grad said:
I am really surprised to hear that someone was offered a starting salary of 130K or 140K. I would not say that is the norm, in my experience and the experience of friends from various backgrounds in psychology. I started at an academic hospital in NYC and made 87K. After less then a year there I left - the environment (staff, facilities) were horrible and the cost of living atrocious. I wised up quickly to the fact that they did not give raises for anyone until they had been there six years. I left for a VA in the NYC metro area and busted through to 105K. Add on my private practice salary (on the side) and I make 120K or more.

I have one friend who works for 120K at a major hospital. But she is a slave to RVU’s, and I would not do that for an easy amount of money...
Click to expand...

Those numbers seem extremely low for NYC.

Some of this may be related to negotiating what you are worth relative to the environment. For example, a friend's post doc was offered ~$100k for her first job, but negotiated up to ~$140k IIRC. There was a lot of mentorship and guidance to get her there.

You should ALWAYS know what you grossly bring in.

Scenario A: You bring in 20 billable hrs/week, and there's a very competitive job market. You'd be nuts to try to get a $100k salary, because you don't even bring in that much. Any employer would lose a ton of money, after vacation days, benefits, etc.

Scenario B: You bring in 40 billable hrs/week, and no one else in your area can. You'd be nuts to only ask for $100k, because you're bringing in a ton more than that.

Scenario C: You have a connection to a highly lucrative contract, or your research is of such a quality as to be used for marketing... You'd have to take the value of those factors into account when negotiating.
 
PsyDr said:
Those numbers seem extremely low for NYC.

Some of this may be related to negotiating what you are worth relative to the environment. For example, a friend's post doc was offered ~$100k for her first job, but negotiated up to ~$140k IIRC. There was a lot of mentorship and guidance to get her there.

You should ALWAYS know what you grossly bring in.

Scenario A: You bring in 20 billable hrs/week, and there's a very competitive job market. You'd be nuts to try to get a $100k salary, because you don't even bring in that much. Any employer would lose a ton of money, after vacation days, benefits, etc.

Scenario B: You bring in 40 billable hrs/week, and no one else in your area can. You'd be nuts to only ask for $100k, because you're bringing in a ton more than that.

Scenario C: You have a connection to a highly lucrative contract, or your research is of such a quality as to be used for marketing... You'd have to take the value of those factors into account when negotiating.
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In my experience in NYC, 87k is not extremely low, but not great either. Salaries for people i know who started there (no connections or leverage) were 75-100k for a basic hospital position. Private practice was much more variable. This was largely for therapy, not neuropsych.
 
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Sanman said:
In my experience in NYC, 87k is not extremely low, but not great either. Salaries for people i know who started there (no connections or leverage) were 75-100k for a basic hospital position. Private practice was much more variable. This was largely for therapy, not neuropsych.
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schnikeys!

I’m really not trying to be elitist here, but how does one live in any of the burroughs on $87k? Cops make more.
 
PsyDr said:
schnikeys!

I’m really not trying to be elitist here, but how does one live in any of the burroughs on $87k? Cops make more.
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You're asking the guy who left?

This is straight salary at the day job. Most everyone had a side practice or was married to someone in finance/tech and was a second income.

I actually recall someone at a counseling center making $60ish k licensed and I applied for a faculty position paying $35k prior to post-doc in a borough.
 
WisNeuro said:
We sort of do have a national and local union (APA, state associations), but people keep coming up with reasons why they are not going to join either.
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Yeah, it seems like the same issues with unions or associations for other industries. Of course, there are problems with any organization, but it's disheartening seeing people go out of their way to find reasons to not join or support these organizations which could have tangible collective bargaining, advocacy, and lobbying potential for them.
 
PsyDr said:
Look up "psychotherapy cpt". Then look CMS fee schedule. Select your preferred geographical region. Find the hourly number. "Non facility" means private practice. Now you have an hourly fee.
Click to expand...

Just did this, thanks for the posting. This is really good info to have in my back pocket.
 
AbnormalPsych said:
Just did this, thanks for the posting. This is really good info to have in my back pocket.
Click to expand...

I have excel spreadsheets with all of the codes I could bill that will automatically calculate how much I am billing for with Medicare as a benchmark. Always good to have your RVU and ballpark billing figures for possible negotiations. Particularly if you work in a hospital system, aside from the VA.
 
AbnormalPsych said:
Just did this, thanks for the posting. This is really good info to have in my back pocket.
Click to expand...

Psychologists seem to be bad at quantifying what they are worth. Always know what you're worth and act accordingly. It's not hard to keep a basic running estimate of your week's revenue in your mind. Some of it adds up. Some of it doesn't. Great for negotiation, great for knowing your place.
 
PsyDr said:
Psychologists seem to be bad at quantifying what they are worth. Always know what you're worth and act accordingly. It's not hard to keep a basic running estimate of your week's revenue in your mind. Some of it adds up. Some of it doesn't. Great for negotiation, great for knowing your place.
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I agree with this. Where I feel it gets more murky is percentage negotiation beyond this. What is the value of being able to acquire a contract vs simply being an employee. Having and facility to complete work? Supervision?I have often pondered this as I move in my career from being "just a clinician" to where I am getting more calls from facilities interested in contracting with me based on my local reputation despite being "out of the game" at the moment.
 
Prepare to be devastated about how little you're worth (I speak from recent experience...) 😉
 
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thebalmofhurtminds said:
Prepare to be devastated about how little you're worth (I speak from recent experience...) 😉
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I am worth exactly what medicare will pay me minus overhead. The question for me is how much of that might I want to pass down the line to someone doing the work as the boss with the contract.
 
Sanman said:
I agree with this. Where I feel it gets more murky is percentage negotiation beyond this. What is the value of being able to acquire a contract vs simply being an employee. Having and facility to complete work? Supervision?I have often pondered this as I move in my career from being "just a clinician" to where I am getting more calls from facilities interested in contracting with me based on my local reputation despite being "out of the game" at the moment.
Click to expand...

Damn dude, get some self esteem. I highly recommend you read the tech article entitled something like “F you, pay me.”.

1) contracts: You locates and produce the contract without their help at all? Google finders fees. Charge that at a minimum for the length of the contract. Get it in writing. What’re they gonna do? Take 90% of a multimillion dollar deal or 0%? “Hey, so I’m offering a multimillion dollar deal for a 10% finders fee for the length of the contract. You want it or should I go somewhere else?”.

2) They own the facility? Why do they need you specifically? JCHAO or CARF accreditation stuff? How much will they lose if they can’t get someone? What are their other options? Maybe they don’t need you at all. So you should take what they give. Maybe they’re desperate, so you should take what you can and get a stipend on top. Maybe they don’t have the cash, but they can do your billing for free. There’s tons of options.

3) Supervision is a REALLY gray area. What do they get from having students? Academic prestige they use to market the facility? They at minimum need to cover your malpractice and hourly fee. They think it’s free labor? Say 3 students, 15hrs week, charging $80/hr? Sounds like that’s $14k/month. What are they offering for that in top of your clinical work? And since we are putting this in writing via email, Mr CEO, surely you’re not suggesting that we replace paid labor with interns in violation of federal law, right? Now what do you think is a fair price of $14k/month? 60/40? So about an additional $100k on top of my salary?
 
PsyDr said:
Damn dude, get some self esteem. I highly recommend you read the tech article entitled something like “F you, pay me.”.

1) contracts: You locates and produce the contract without their help at all? Google finders fees. Charge that at a minimum for the length of the contract. Get it in writing. What’re they gonna do? Take 90% of a multimillion dollar deal or 0%? “Hey, so I’m offering a multimillion dollar deal for a 10% finders fee for the length of the contract. You want it or should I go somewhere else?”.

2) They own the facility? Why do they need you specifically? JCHAO or CARF accreditation stuff? How much will they lose if they can’t get someone? What are their other options? Maybe they don’t need you at all. So you should take what they give. Maybe they’re desperate, so you should take what you can and get a stipend on top. Maybe they don’t have the cash, but they can do your billing for free. There’s tons of options.

3) Supervision is a REALLY gray area. What do they get from having students? Academic prestige they use to market the facility? They at minimum need to cover your malpractice and hourly fee. They think it’s free labor? Say 3 students, 15hrs week, charging $80/hr? Sounds like that’s $14k/month. What are they offering for that in top of your clinical work? And since we are putting this in writing via email, Mr CEO, surely you’re not suggesting that we replace paid labor with interns in violation of federal law, right? Now what do you think is a fair price of $14k/month? 60/40? So about an additional $100k on top of my salary?
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You misunderstand me. I am getting calls from SNFs, ALFs, etc that are interested in hiring me for services because of my reputation for quality work. I don't currently want to leave my position and do that work full-time.

I am considering whether it is more financially lucrative to sign a contact with an ALF, nursing home, etc to provide psych services and then

A. Pass it on to another psych services company for a finder's fee and keep my day job.

B. Negotiate to remain on as a part-time clinical manager/director with my a company for these contracts, charge the finder's fee and charge a percentage for quality assurance and clinician supervision of ECPs/newbs that do the work, while still keeping my day job.

C. Just start my own competing company get contracts to provide psych services and hire another psychologist to provide services for a percentage with me providing backup coverage for services and guidance. If so, what percentage would I offer to them for just doing the work.

D. Forget the whole thing and go take a nap.
 
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PsyDr said:
Damn dude, get some self esteem. I highly recommend you read the tech article entitled something like “F you, pay me.”.

1) contracts: You locates and produce the contract without their help at all? Google finders fees. Charge that at a minimum for the length of the contract. Get it in writing. What’re they gonna do? Take 90% of a multimillion dollar deal or 0%? “Hey, so I’m offering a multimillion dollar deal for a 10% finders fee for the length of the contract. You want it or should I go somewhere else?”.

2) They own the facility? Why do they need you specifically? JCHAO or CARF accreditation stuff? How much will they lose if they can’t get someone? What are their other options? Maybe they don’t need you at all. So you should take what they give. Maybe they’re desperate, so you should take what you can and get a stipend on top. Maybe they don’t have the cash, but they can do your billing for free. There’s tons of options.

3) Supervision is a REALLY gray area. What do they get from having students? Academic prestige they use to market the facility? They at minimum need to cover your malpractice and hourly fee. They think it’s free labor? Say 3 students, 15hrs week, charging $80/hr? Sounds like that’s $14k/month. What are they offering for that in top of your clinical work? And since we are putting this in writing via email, Mr CEO, surely you’re not suggesting that we replace paid labor with interns in violation of federal law, right? Now what do you think is a fair price of $14k/month? 60/40? So about an additional $100k on top of my salary?
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I need that @PsyDr energy
 
beginner2011 said:
This is fascinating. Is this where you ended up? It looks like a 60m therapy hour (90837) is billed at $127-$159 depending on modifiers. Is that what Medicare/Medicaid will pay?

Search the Physician Fee Schedule | CMS

www.cms.gov www.cms.gov
Click to expand...

Does this include regional variation? I thought this varied by region, but maybe I'm thinking of other types of insurance.

For 90837, colleagues I've talked to who take Medicare are cautious about using this code regularly because Medicare has audited more clinicians lately (at least they have in my region/state per some colleagues), and allegedly Medicare reviewers get suspicious when you use it too often. It's supposed to be reserved for rare situations. A friend of mine who takes Medicare regularly bills for the 45-minute sessions (90834) which go for quite a bit lower.
 
beginner2011 said:
This is fascinating. Is this where you ended up? It looks like a 60m therapy hour (90837) is billed at $127-$159 depending on modifiers. Is that what Medicare/Medicaid will pay?

Search the Physician Fee Schedule | CMS

www.cms.gov www.cms.gov
Click to expand...
I get anywhere from $100 to $140 from Medicaid. Medicare pays a little bit more.

Sent from my SM-G973U using Tapatalk
 
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