Envision Healthcare teeters on the brink of bankruptcy

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I work for envision and know upper level leadership. In a market with reduced anesthesia supply envision has a large number of personnel. That means they have the leverage to successfully negotiate subsidies or they can just sell the non competes of personnel they have in failing markets. Either way the companies that successfully negotiate subsidies as the ones that will survive.
except where hospitals fire or non-renew Envisions contracts and indemnify the physicians (AKA NJ). No 'selling' the non-competes there. Also LOL at thinking that selling out the non-competes will cover the cost of their failing business model.

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I work for envision and know upper level leadership. In a market with reduced anesthesia supply envision has a large number of personnel. That means they have the leverage to successfully negotiate subsidies or they can just sell the non competes of personnel they have in failing markets. Either way the companies that successfully negotiate subsidies as the ones that will survive.
The no surprise bill will kill the management companies slowly. no surprise bill Just like what did the anesthesia company in Richmond in. The hospitals will take over and see how easy or hard it is to maintain an anesthesia practice
 
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The no surprise bill will kill the management companies slowly. no surprise bill Just like what did the anesthesia company in Richmond in. The hospitals will take over and see how easy or hard it is to maintain an anesthesia practice
Entirely possible that it kills all management companies and private practice, the current process for arbitration takes a lot of time when you're out of network meanwhile you have to continue to float the salaries. This puts all PP groups in a more difficult place than large hospitals and AMCs. The next 2 years will be telling. There is also the option that large hospital groups see the value of buying anesthesia asset and diverting them to their hospitals . Could HCA buy envision and divert its clinicians ? maybe ascension ?
 
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except where hospitals fire or non-renew Envisions contracts and indemnify the physicians (AKA NJ). No 'selling' the non-competes there. Also LOL at thinking that selling out the non-competes will cover the cost of their failing business model.
Sure, that requires the clinicians to have a lot of trust with the administration, its my experience that anesthesia groups dont have many friends and these hospitals dont internalize groups to just pay them and give them a good work life balance. They need us, but with the financial pressure they are facing there is no doubt that most of the hospital groups will be intentionally understaffed and overworked. One look at how they treat the rest of their staff and you should get the picture.
 
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Entirely possible that it kills all management companies and private practice, the current process for arbitration takes a lot of time when you're out of network meanwhile you have to continue to float the salaries. This puts all PP groups in a more difficult place than large hospitals and AMCs. The next 2 years will be telling. There is also the option that large hospital groups see the value of buying anesthesia asset and diverting them to their hospitals . Could HCA buy envision and divert its clinicians ? maybe ascension ?


Hospitals don’t need to buy anything. They just need to provide a place to work. Eg Charlotte, Reno, Walnut Creek. In my state, HCA doesn’t use AMCs.
 
Our small private group just transitioned into hospital employment. This was due to recruiting issues largely due to decreasing revenue and lack of a subsidy in a smaller town. Difficulty in recruiting makes the hospital more likely to give you what you ask for since there’s few options. Especially when all the AMCs go under and can’t come in and require the hospital to pay a massive subsidy. I’d hate to be a hospital CEO having to negotiate with an anesthesia group right now.
 
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Sure, that requires the clinicians to have a lot of trust with the administration, its my experience that anesthesia groups dont have many friends and these hospitals dont internalize groups to just pay them and give them a good work life balance. They need us, but with the financial pressure they are facing there is no doubt that most of the hospital groups will be intentionally understaffed and overworked. One look at how they treat the rest of their staff and you should get the picture.

You’re right to be concerned about the effects of hospital employment. However, the key part of your assessment is that “they need us.” So long as we remember that and maintain our ability and willingness to leave a bad situation, we can keep these hospitals honest.
 
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You’re right to be concerned about the effects of hospital employment. However, the key part of your assessment is that “they need us.” So long as we remember that and maintain our ability and willingness to leave a bad situation, we can keep these hospitals honest.
While I agree they need us, they first need to rid themselves of old paradigms. The hospitals that value and respect their providers will excel and the ones that don't will struggle. There is no doubt in my mind there will be some hospitals that wont learn this valuable lesson and try to run their departments at with 30% of the staff needed and drive them into the ground to "get the cases done" .
 
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Our small private group just transitioned into hospital employment. This was due to recruiting issues largely due to decreasing revenue and lack of a subsidy in a smaller town. Difficulty in recruiting makes the hospital more likely to give you what you ask for since there’s few options. Especially when all the AMCs go under and can’t come in and require the hospital to pay a massive subsidy. I’d hate to be a hospital CEO having to negotiate with an anesthesia group right now.
More pay? more vacay ? hours go up ? do you run your own department ? Do they know how many bodies are required to be fully staffed? Do they want to be fully staffed? Did they consider a supervision or a CRNA only model ?
 
While I agree they need us, they first need to rid themselves of old paradigms. The hospitals that value and respect their providers Physicians and clinicians will excel and the ones that don't will struggle. There is no doubt in my mind there will be some hospitals that wont learn this valuable lesson and try to run their departments at with 30% of the staff needed and drive them into the ground to "get the cases done" .
I fixed it for you.

 
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More pay? more vacay ? hours go up ? do you run your own department ? Do they know how many bodies are required to be fully staffed? Do they want to be fully staffed? Did they consider a supervision or a CRNA only model ?
More pay. Nothing else changed.
 
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You’re right to be concerned about the effects of hospital employment. However, the key part of your assessment is that “they need us.” So long as we remember that and maintain our ability and willingness to leave a bad situation, we can keep these hospitals honest.
The problem is our field (and this probably includes all doctors) have a hard time being "united" against a hospital. Ive seen it and I understand both sides. People have often said it on here. We have kids, we have mortgages, we have IG model spouses so it's not easy to just cut off income to prove a point. We'd be a pretty poor union if we could form one.
 
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The problem is our field (and this probably includes all doctors) have a hard time being "united" against a hospital. Ive seen it and I understand both sides. People have often said it on here. We have kids, we have mortgages, we have IG model spouses so it's not easy to just cut off income to prove a point. We'd be a pretty poor union if we could form one.

I understand that too, but all it takes is a few pioneers to get the ball rolling. Nobody wants to be left holding an anesthesia bag of poo. I’ve seen crummy jobs where one departure leads to multiple because no one wants to absorb the extra workload. If employers don’t respond to a departure because of a poor working environment, it can spiral out of control pretty quickly. The good employers will respond to money and workload concerns, the bad employers will be the revolving doors that get a reputation.
 
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Our small private group just transitioned into hospital employment. This was due to recruiting issues largely due to decreasing revenue and lack of a subsidy in a smaller town. Difficulty in recruiting makes the hospital more likely to give you what you ask for since there’s few options. Especially when all the AMCs go under and can’t come in and require the hospital to pay a massive subsidy. I’d hate to be a hospital CEO having to negotiate with an anesthesia group right now.

The CEO is faced with the choice of paying money as a stipend to the existing group, or paying money by eating the department. I think it would depend on the level of trust in the anesthesia group.

From what I have seen there is not a lot of trust, and the subsidies dont come. Then the whole department changes over instead of a stipend to make it work. For many short-sited CEOs that stipend is a dealbreaker - our services are expected to pay for themselves..
 
I understand that too, but all it takes is a few pioneers to get the ball rolling. Nobody wants to be left holding an anesthesia bag of poo. I’ve seen crummy jobs where one departure leads to multiple because no one wants to absorb the extra workload. If employers don’t respond to a departure because of a poor working environment, it can spiral out of control pretty quickly. The good employers will respond to money and workload concerns, the bad employers will be the revolving doors that get a reputation.
Agreed, in a situation where half the group leaves, the people left will be responsible to take over the enormous workload while locums come in get paid well and leave when they want. In that situation and this market doing locums 1-2 years until they have figures it out would likely be a more reasonable way to protect yourself from abuse.
 
The CEO is faced with the choice of paying money as a stipend to the existing group, or paying money by eating the department. I think it would depend on the level of trust in the anesthesia group.

From what I have seen there is not a lot of trust, and the subsidies dont come. Then the whole department changes over instead of a stipend to make it work. For many short-sited CEOs that stipend is a dealbreaker - our services are expected to pay for themselves..
whether the CEO trusts the group and provides high quality care and whether the group trusts the CEO. I would agree that to many short sided CEOs the stipend is a deal breaker but 80 % of groups were subsidized prior to covid. Again only time will tell. A Solution in one market may not work in another.
 
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Even the leanest of MD-only private practices are facing existential headwinds. Insurance companies have become increasingly emboldened, for example pushing back hard on a measly 3% increase after keeping reimbursement flat for the past 5-10 years.

I think within the next decade our field will be predominantly hospital employed, or have some sort of employment setup similar to Kaiser physicians.
You are spot on with this statement.
 
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The easy money for PE to buy physician groups is long gone and won't ever return. With the downward drift in reimbursements for physician services from CMS and little headway being made in negotiating compensatory increases from private insurers, there is hardly any juice left to squeeze, if any, with rising labor and supply costs. AMCs won contracts with slick presentations to CEOs. Most have overpromised and underdelivered. There are two salient facts in anesthesia: rising demand will keep us employed and our wages will remain stable, as hospitals and ASCs make a bulk of their revenue on the facility fees. IF, and it is a big IF, a true value-based, capitated payment system is created that rewards fewer procedures, then there will be a shift. I just don't see this coming any time soon.
 
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The easy money for PE to buy physician groups is long gone and won't ever return. With the downward drift in reimbursements for physician services from CMS and little headway being made in negotiating compensatory increases from private insurers, there is hardly any juice left to squeeze, if any, with rising labor and supply costs. AMCs won contracts with slick presentations to CEOs. Most have overpromised and underdelivered. There are two salient facts in anesthesia: rising demand will keep us employed and our wages will remain stable, as hospitals and ASCs make a bulk of their revenue on the facility fees. IF, and it is a big IF, a true value-based, capitated payment system is created that rewards fewer procedures, then there will be a shift. I just don't see this coming any time soon.
You could see what their business model a mile away. Gain Market share in an area, stay out of network and, if they go in network, negotiate the highest possible fees. Nothing inherently awful about that except the manner in which they go about gaining market share. They took away the out of network fees so now they have nothing
 
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Insurers paid more for anesthesiology services after outpatient healthcare facilities switched to practices owned by private-equity firms, according to a paper published in February. An earlier version of this article incorrectly said that outpatient healthcare facilities were the payors.
 
OK, so envision is ****ting the bed, USAP under FTC investigation, whats left? Team health is also a mess... Northstar?
 
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USAP has had on and off FTC reviews for years. It’s always on our minds…. And why, here in dallas, I’m happy metro is still in business…. There can be no monopoly claim in dallas with metro in operation.
What’s up with team health? I don’t have current details on that situation.
Regarding Northstar- At least in the rural north Texas markets they are struggling. A friend of mine was a crna in an independent rural practice with Northstar…. They’ve lost half their CRNAs and are unable to recruit more. Northstar can’t staff tyler and is struggling to cover cases… even with firefighter models.
At this moment, gossip is: sound seems like it’s doing okay implementing the firefighter model.. at least for now.
 
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OK, so envision is ****ting the bed, USAP under FTC investigation, whats left? Team health is also a mess... Northstar?
lol Pipeline filed for bankruptcy ( hospital group) , ascension 1.8 billion loss, mass gen 1 billion loss , common spirit 600 million, etc etc most major hospitals are under enormous financial pressure post pandemic. Health care is a mess in general.
 
lol Pipeline filed for bankruptcy ( hospital group) , ascension 1.8 billion loss, mass gen 1 billion loss , common spirit 600 million, etc etc most major hospitals are under enormous financial pressure post pandemic. Health care is a mess in general.

Healthcare is ridiculously bloated and needs to be corrected, despite how much it’s going to hurt.
 
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Ha metro a week argument. USAP still
has likely more than 50% market share in Dallas and Houston. 50% in Austin. Denver maybe more than 60%

Articles have come out showing the increased costs with PE running these practices.

Is that enough to break up these groups? Prob not, but glad they are investigating, either way no surprises act has capped these groups crazy rates ($5000 for an epidural is insane and I had a friends insurance pay USAP that-it’s a 5 minute procedure-makes Anesthesia look terrible)
 
USAP has had on and off FTC reviews for years. It’s always on our minds…. And why, here in dallas, I’m happy metro is still in business…. There can be no monopoly claim in dallas with metro in operation.
What’s up with team health? I don’t have current details on that situation.
Regarding Northstar- At least in the rural north Texas markets they are struggling. A friend of mine was a crna in an independent rural practice with Northstar…. They’ve lost half their CRNAs and are unable to recruit more. Northstar can’t staff tyler and is struggling to cover cases… even with firefighter models.
At this moment, gossip is: sound seems like it’s doing okay implementing the firefighter model.. at least for now.


FTC investigated our (then 200 doctor) group for anticompetitive practices in the 1990s. Seems so quaint now.
 
I have the solution!

Fire all the administrators.

It’s not just them, nursing costs have skyrocketed out of control, and there’s no need for having a whole hierarchy of nurse educators, nurse ass. managers, quality control clipboarders, etc. Not to mention all the midlevels that order more tests and studies that do not add value.
 
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($5000 for an epidural is insane and I had a friends insurance pay USAP that-it’s a 5 minute procedure-makes Anesthesia look terrible)
Easy there sport. We're talking about immediate pain relief and hours of babysitting. Given that we're probably the only ones in the hospital that can safely provide that service, I may argue we aren't paid enough, despite it being probably the better reimbursed segment of all of anesthesia.
 
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If you think $5000 for an epidural is appropriate then that is exactly why CRNAs will win the scope of practice argument.
 
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I have the solution!

Fire all the administrators.
Not going to happen. They will try to squeeze more blood out of the people doing the actual work.
 
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If you think $5000 for an epidural is appropriate then that is exactly why CRNAs will win the scope of practice argument.
CRNAs can have ALL the 3 am calls for blocks. ALL. OF. THEM.

Just don't call me for wet taps, one sided blocks, PDPH, "I can't get the block in",etc,etc,etc
 
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If you think $5000 for an epidural is appropriate then that is exactly why CRNAs will win the scope of practice argument.
Furthermore, I hope you realize, just because the patient is charged 5k for an epidural, doesn't necessarily mean that's what the anesthesiologist was paid.
 
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That’s what they were paid. It wasn’t the charge
 
It’s not difficult if you have friends in Texas or some other amc dominated state. Look at their EOB/statements. They get paid crazy high amounts-which only fuels CRNAs arguments about them being cheaper
 
But as I’m implying, you almost never see them arguing they can/want to cover OB
 
Not sure where you live -plenty of practices where only CRNAs staff OB
 
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It’s not just them, nursing costs have skyrocketed out of control, and there’s no need for having a whole hierarchy of nurse educators, nurse ass. managers, quality control clipboarders, etc.
So true. At the academic hospital I did residency, there was a full time RN who was in charge of handwashing compliance. Her full time job was to observe employees at different locations to see if they were washing their hands before patient interactions. Another example - At my current hospital there are 5 full time RN managers (none involved with patient care) for periop (pre-op, OR and PACU/Phase 2). If there is any objective cost cutting, you'd think these positions would be the first to go.
 
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So true. At the academic hospital I did residency, there was a full time RN who was in charge of handwashing compliance. Her full time job was to observe employees at different locations to see if they were washing their hands before patient interactions. Another example - At my current hospital there are 5 full time RN managers (none involved with patient care) for periop (pre-op, OR and PACU/Phase 2). If there is any objective cost cutting, you'd think these positions would be the first to go.
You are not describing nurses. You are describing low level admin who formerly worked as nurses.
 
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But highly paid low level admin.
Whenever the Periop/OR nurses have a meltdown about some admin related question (eg what’s the OR policy on X?) I tell them to page the administrator on call and ask them. But they just won’t. They’re terrified of upsetting the admins who’re comfortably sitting at home while we slog away. The OR staff really thinks we should figure it all out on our own and not bother them. They don’t even expect the admins to do their actual jobs… meanwhile we go to BS meetings on their terms mid-day at their convenience. It’s truly a perfect crime on their end.
 
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And this is why group ownership doesn't really mean anything. There was no tangible asset so envision had nothing to sell to recoup their costs and no protection from competition

Lesson for all of those who are pondering contributing to buy-in for their future employment opportunities...
 
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And this is why group ownership doesn't really mean anything. There was no tangible asset so envision had nothing to sell to recoup their costs and no protection from competition

Lesson for all of those who are pondering contributing to buy-in for their future employment opportunities...
I wouldn’t accept a buy in with an AMC for sure. A small private practice where you’re an actual shareholder, there’s a argument to be made.
 
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I wouldn’t accept a buy in with an AMC for sure. A small private practice where you’re an actual shareholder, there’s a argument to be made.
Wouldn't necessarily matter. Neither actually owns any tangible assets.

You are only buying into the promise of future income. No intrinsic value or security.

That being said...it depends on the cost of the buy in (risk) versus the reward (time and monetary value)
 
Wouldn't necessarily matter. Neither actually owns any tangible assets.

You are only buying into the promise of future income. No intrinsic value or security.

That being said...it depends on the cost of the buy in (risk) versus the reward (time and monetary value)

There was at least one practice I interviewed at with real estate holding. They owned some office buildings and collect rent. Only one I’ve seen though, or at least only one to share that. I suspect there are a few more groups with senior partners who own billing company, and/or other tangible “stuff”.
 
Wouldn't necessarily matter. Neither actually owns any tangible assets.

You are only buying into the promise of future income. No intrinsic value or security.

That being said...it depends on the cost of the buy in (risk) versus the reward (time and monetary value)
If you're in a small boutique private practice, the practice ie company, is the asset. The potential future is either the profit sharing of the company or the share of any buyout. That's the risk and potential reward.

Other than that, yes I tend to agree with you, "buying in" to a company that doesn't give you future profit sharing or splitting of a company sale would be a red-flag.

Now I do think the whole "selling out" is a bit of a thing of the past because now, well at least the past decade, the AMC just comes in and overpromises and underdelivers and takes the contract due to a hospital CFO trying to save a buck. Maybe these issues with the likes of Envision and NAPA slows that down but I see the end result, as others have said, just being hospital employment.
 
USAP has had on and off FTC reviews for years. It’s always on our minds…. And why, here in dallas, I’m happy metro is still in business…. There can be no monopoly claim in dallas with metro in operation.
What’s up with team health? I don’t have current details on that situation.
Regarding Northstar- At least in the rural north Texas markets they are struggling. A friend of mine was a crna in an independent rural practice with Northstar…. They’ve lost half their CRNAs and are unable to recruit more. Northstar can’t staff tyler and is struggling to cover cases… even with firefighter models.
At this moment, gossip is: sound seems like it’s doing okay implementing the firefighter model.. at least for now.
seems like only insurance companies are allowed to have monopolies? 1 out of 3 people are insured by blue cross in certain markets but thats ok. This is more government targeting likely lead by insurance companies lobbyists
 
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