ER Pay

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EctopicFetus

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  1. Attending Physician
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I am wondering what you guys have heard as far as ER attending pay and hours worked. I think this is one aspect of applying to residency that is often overlooked. I know there are "national surveys" but I think they underepresent.

Annual Salary:

Hours Worked:

Location:

This format would be appreciated.

I will start:

Annual Salary: $300,000

Hours: 1800

Location: Oklahoma
 
And people wonder why I want to stay in OK 😉

I've heard of higher in Arkansas (semi-rural)

(edit:Oops, sorry, hit the edit instead of quote button...I didn't edit the content of this post...
Mark)
 
Are relative's salaries allowed? If so:


1. Location: Kentucky

2. Hours: 1800

3. Pay: 350,000
 
most of the surveys for ER docs say around 180-300... there is something wrong on this forum, since most ppl mention 300 or higher. the point here is not to brag, or show off the top 1%, but rather what you have seen to get a more true sampling.
 
MD PAY IN GROUP I WORK WITH:
Oregon
$145/hr
12 Hr Shifts
# Shifts/month, And Therefore Total Salary Variable
 
cooldreams said:
most of the surveys for ER docs say around 180-300... there is something wrong on this forum, since most ppl mention 300 or higher. the point here is not to brag, or show off the top 1%, but rather what you have seen to get a more true sampling.

The survey's generally survey a broad range of ER physicians in a variety of practice settings across a the country. I don't think we have much representation on this forum from academic EM and Corporate megagroups since we probably have less than 10 attendings on the forum regularly. Academic EM and megagroups are notoriously less well paid so its not surprising our posted numbers are higher.

For my group.

Hourly rate: based on completely equal profit sharing amongst group members so it varies from year to year but generally around 200/hr. The only paid benefits are malpractice

Total Hours: Highly variable but ranges from 700/year to a cap of around 1900/year

Location:Colorado

Note: I think we are one of the more democratic/equitable groups in the area but we probably aren't even in the top 3 in terms of pay. The Kaiser group here in town pays about what Spyderdoc quoted for Cali but it should be noted that this includes a great benefit package
 
what is meant by "a great benefits package" ?? do the hourly salaries post here not include overhead/malprac/health/etc... ? if they do not, then it seems the numbers are closer than they appear..
 
cooldreams said:
most of the surveys for ER docs say around 180-300... there is something wrong on this forum, since most ppl mention 300 or higher. the point here is not to brag, or show off the top 1%, but rather what you have seen to get a more true sampling.
Salary is VERY dependent on location, benefits package, and type of job. I just went to a recruitment dinner for a democratic group covering community hospitals in mostly rural locations of the East Coast. The numbers they quoted were equal profit sharing after 1 year, full partner after 2 years, about 1800 hrs, fantastic benefits and around (variable) $150/hr.

Comparitively, in Philly, academic docs are making between 150K and 175K right out of residency (based on last year's grads from my program).
 
seems like the more rural areas pay more. why is that? just the lack of docs in the area?

what are the more rural hospitals like? surely they are lacking in much of the technology that city hospitals have, right? if that is the case then your practice would change... being somewhat more dependant on yourself instead of labs, other docs, etc. 😕
 
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cooldreams said:
what is meant by "a great benefits package" ?? do the hourly salaries post here not include overhead/malprac/health/etc... ? if they do not, then it seems the numbers are closer than they appear..

I suspect many of the hourly reports may not include benefits unless they specifically say so. There is no overhead really in EM and malpractice is often but not always included.

A more comprehensive benefits package might include >4 weeks/year paid vacation plus paid CME time/expenses, Health ins, Dental ins, Disabillity insurance, Life insurance, and 1.5-2.0X matching of 401k contributions. I know of people in the HMO and academic setting with benefits like that. You are right that those benefits often close much of the gap between those practices and the reported high hourlies with private small groups

cooldreams said:
seems like the more rural areas pay more. why is that? just the lack of docs in the area?

what are the more rural hospitals like? surely they are lacking in much of the technology that city hospitals have, right? if that is the case then your practice would change... being somewhat more dependant on yourself instead of labs, other docs, etc.

Actually, the best pay is probably at high volume, suburban hospitals where the majority of patients are older middle/upper class with insurance for the simple reason that older people are more likely to be sick and need complicated workup and admissions(which pays more) and the higher percentage of patients with insurance the more likely you are to get paid. I think suburban trauma centers that deal mostly in car crashes also do quite well especially in states where everyone has no fault insurance, again because then the bills get paid.
 
Was that an EMP dinner Scrubbs? Went to one with them last night. Was nice.
 
Seaglass said:
Was that an EMP dinner Scrubbs? Went to one with them last night. Was nice.
Yup... likely not for me (because I'm staying in Philly), but nice package/people. And the restaurant was AWESOME!!!! Okay... maybe one shouldn't decide on a job based on a restaurant, but want can I say? They really went all out.
 
Pretty good compenation actually. Upside of course is limited because er physicians are shift workers limited by the number of hours you can work. However, I guess that's the whole point for you guys.

For academics...

http://www.acep.org/1,33114,0.html

Instructor, $183,800
Assistant professor, $175,000
Associate professor, $189,709
Professor, $180,470

The median starting total compensation for academic emergency physicians for 2002 was $158,500.


From salary.com... all er physicians in US... (for what it's worth)

25th%ile Median 75th%ile
$173,629 $200,023 $225,248
 
i am currently on my last night of call at the ICU at St. Paul's (private hospital across the street from Parkland) so I asked the ED director here about jobs while admitting a pt the other day. He said he had worked in EM for over 30 years in Texas/Oklahoma. He was telling me that the avg salary in Texas is 225K (sound kinda high). He said JPS (John Peter Smith Hospital in Ft. Worth) was looking for EPs currently at 150/hr (but he said w/ the malpractice and other benefits they were offering, it was more like 180/hr).

I have been interested to know what kind of contract the hospitals have as far as commitment goes. It would be nice to go work at a less desirable location for 300K/yr for 1-2 years, but I didnt know if they locked you in for 5 or more years. If the good jobs are in the suburbs and metro areas, that would be great for my wife (who is also an EM intern like me) and me. We would like to work the same shifts so that we could see each other and not be on opposite schedules. It seems that we would have to work at different hospitals most likely in nearby suburbs b/c I am not sure how easy it would be to match up our schedules at the same ED (especially if they don't have multiple attendings on all the time).

-andy
 
Andy Kahn said:
i am currently on my last night of call at the ICU at St. Paul's (private hospital across the street from Parkland) so I asked the ED director here about jobs while admitting a pt the other day. He said he had worked in EM for over 30 years in Texas/Oklahoma. He was telling me that the avg salary in Texas is 225K (sound kinda high). He said JPS (John Peter Smith Hospital in Ft. Worth) was looking for EPs currently at 150/hr (but he said w/ the malpractice and other benefits they were offering, it was more like 180/hr).
I've never worked in the Dallas area, but $225K does sound about average for Texas.

I have been interested to know what kind of contract the hospitals have as far as commitment goes. It would be nice to go work at a less desirable location for 300K/yr for 1-2 years, but I didnt know if they locked you in for 5 or more years.
The contract length only applies to the contract holder, not to the individual physician. Generally, they're allowed to fire you with little notice, and you have the right to leave on little notice.

If the good jobs are in the suburbs and metro areas, that would be great for my wife (who is also an EM intern like me) and me. We would like to work the same shifts so that we could see each other and not be on opposite schedules. It seems that we would have to work at different hospitals most likely in nearby suburbs b/c I am not sure how easy it would be to match up our schedules at the same ED (especially if they don't have multiple attendings on all the time).
Pretty much no hospitals will have duplicate shifts for EPs. The vast majority are either single coverage or staggered shifts.
 
once you're done with residency, do you usually just start working at the same place as an attending?

What if you want to work at another location? do you just apply like any other job? and how does the partnership thing work? i understand it for other specialities, but not sure how EM partnership works.

any input is appreciated
 
I had the same question as above. And to add to it, does the place you try and get a job at look at where you went for residency? In other words, are jobs competitive based on your training? What about once you are established as a physisican with 10 years under your belt? Can you get a job as an EP at a "highly ranked" program or hospital, even though you may have trained at a "lesser" program or hospital since you have a lot of experience? Pardon my ignorance to the whole subject.
 
Once you finish residency, you go looking for a job just like any other Joe Shmoe. Hopefully, you've found one before you've finished residency, actually. We had this question answered pretty recently IIRC. Partnership in an EM group is the same as partnership in any other professional assocation of physicians. The difference in EM is that a significant portion of EPs are employees of corporations that hold contracts with hospitals rather than partners in a group of equal colleagues.

Where you finished residency may have some bearing on where you work right out of residency, but it's more important that your faculty like and trust you enough to give you a strong reference letter when looking for a job.

Once you're out and working in the community, where you went to residency is all but completely irrelevent. What matters is how your colleagues felt about you and how well you performed. Again letters of reference are key, particularly from your medical director where you worked or from hospital adminstrators as well if you were the medical director. Prospective employers will also often ask for a letter of reference from a charge nurse or nurse manager at a hospital you've worked at. So don't be a pompous ass and piss of your nurses, because it will come back to haunt you.

I'd also add that looking for a job in EM is like looking for a job in most other fields. Networking is key. If you are trusted and liked by someone who is in turn trusted and liked by the person doing the hiring, then you've got a definite advantage.
 
most jobs now in the usa are hard to get... more jobs are leaving than are opening....

is it difficult to find an EP position somewhere if you are willing to go just about anywhere? i thought some places are absolutely despirate for EPs?
 
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aside from a few saturated markets, EM is very wide open as far as job hunting goes, at least so I hear from recent/pending grads
 
Celiac Plexus said:
Instructor, $183,800
Assistant professor, $175,000
Associate professor, $189,709
Professor, $180,470

That doesn't make sense. How could an Associate professor make more than a full professor?
 
Firebird said:
That doesn't make sense. How could an Associate professor make more than a full professor?
Probably because a disproportionate number of assoc. prof's are in community teaching hospitals instead of university hospitals.
 
Firebird said:
That doesn't make sense. How could an Associate professor make more than a full professor?

your ignorance is bliss
:laugh:
 
Firebird said:
That doesn't make sense. How could an Associate professor make more than a full professor?
The other thing to realize is that EM is a pretty new specialty and there aren't that many fully tenured professors of EM in the country, so your sample size is necessarily quite small. At the time I finished my residency a few years ago, I knew of only a SINGLE fully tenured professor of EM in Texas. Every Texas residency was essentially filled with asst profs, even the dept chairmen.
 
jawurheemd said:
SAEM has a list of all the professors in emergency medicine -- it's in Word format.

Full Professor List
Neat list. I didn't realize anybody had put together such a list. It's nice to see that the Southwestern guys pretty much all got promoted, esp Mike Wainscott. He's been there working to get the program and to develop it for ages and a super nice guy.
 
Sessamoid said:
Neat list. I didn't realize anybody had put together such a list. It's nice to see that the Southwestern guys pretty much all got promoted, esp Mike Wainscott. He's been there working to get the program and to develop it for ages and a super nice guy.

you are talking about yourself again aren't you? 😉 just kidding!! hehe
 
cooldreams said:
you are talking about yourself again aren't you? 😉 just kidding!! hehe
Heh. Actually, Wainscott was working at Parkland back when I was just a volunteer in their ED. And that's been a pretty fair amount of time by now.
 
Is there an upper limit for the number of hours an ER doc can work per year?
 
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QuinnNSU said:
8760, although every four years one is able to work 8784.

Q

woow... so like... if i genetically engieered an em robot to work all hours at about $130 per hour, that is 1138000, minus taxes is about 10 bucks, so then only like 1.5972323425 million years to pay off the robot and all research*.

*above statement does not include adjustment for kerry tax increase for ppl making 200k or above before taxes, or resulting inflation. have a great day

hehehhee 😀
 
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