"Even though our education is different, it doesn’t make one worse or better” - Cindy Cooke, DNP

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cbrons

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BY GABRIEL PERNA

Jeff Katz’s chosen profession could help alleviate the shortage of his predicted profession. Katz, a practicing physician assistant (PA), as well as president and chairman of the American Association of Physician Assistants (AAPA), was in the “future physicians” club in high school. While he never became a doctor, PAs like him may be called upon in practices across the country to take on more duties akin to primary-care physicians.

According to HHS’ Health Resources and Services Administration (HRSA), there will be a shortage of 20,400 primary-care physicians in the U.S. by 2020, thanks to the aging population and more people insured through the Affordable Care Act. Another estimate, from the American Association of Medical Colleges, projects a shortage of up to 94,700 doctors by 2025 for the same reasons that HRSA stated. HRSA says PAs and nurse practitioners (NPs) integrated into a Patient-Centered Medical Home-type delivery system can ease this shortage.

Perhaps not coincidentally, PAs and NPs are becoming more commonplace in practices across the country. In our eighth annual Physicians Practice Staff Salary Survey, 73 percent of practices indicated they had at least one advanced practitioner on staff — up from 63 percent in last year’s survey.

Forty-two and a half percent of respondents said they employ one advanced practitioner and 39.5 percent said they employ two. Echoing the rise in advanced practitioners on staff at practices nationwide, Merritt Hawkins, a physician recruitment firm, conducted research that found PAs and NPs combined were the fifth most in-demand position in healthcare in 2014. Over the course of his career, Katz says he has seen the PA profession grow from a niche job to a staple of the medical team as the dynamics of healthcare have changed.

“The medical complexity has changed. You need good teams working together [to achieve better outcomes]. Not only are there more PAs and NPs, there are other members of the [medical] team whose numbers have dramatically risen over the years,” says Katz.

SCOPE OF PRACTICE

That PAs and NPs are a more integral part of healthcare than ever before is not a fact up for debate. No one disputes it. Whether or not advanced practitioners can address the primary-care physician shortage is, however, not a unanimous sentiment. For instance, the American Academy of Family Physicians (AAFP) Robert Graham Center, a non-profit research firm that focuses on improving primary care at a population health level, put out a policy paper in 2013 saying PAs and NPs may not be the answer because many don’t even work in primary care (see related sidebar). Others simply do not see them as a one-to-one substitute for physicians.

“This isn’t about anyone being good, bad, better, or worse. It’s about role clarity,” says Reid Blackwelder, a family medicine physician, past president of the AAFP, and professor of family medicine at the Quillen College of Medicine at East Tennessee State University. “Every member of the team is critical, but we’re not interchangeable. The training, the education, the experience ... it’s quite different. That needs to be recognized. In these discussions, ‘X’ can substitute for ‘Y’ does not work. We all have areas of expertise.” In particular, Blackwelder’s comments are over an increasing authority given to NPs across the country.

According to Cindy Cooke, president of the American Association of Nurse Practitioners (AANP) and a former family medicine NP at Fox Army Health Center in Huntsville, Ala., 21 states, along with Washington D.C., have given NPs full scope of practice. For her part, Cooke agrees that “each of us has a role,” but says by being allowed to practice to the full scope of their educational and clinical training NPs can help address the primary care physician shortage.

Elizabeth Seymour, a family medicine physician at the Medical Associates of Denton, Texas, says that while NPs cannot replace a physician, she thinks they will play a vital role in addressing this shortage. “I think physicians are extremely overworked and eventually they’re all [going to be] burned out and lose satisfaction with their job. Reimbursement is so low … the cost of business is high.

"I don’t want to think a nurse practitioner is watered down care, there is obviously a difference in education, but at the same time, they can definitely help out with specific things,” says Seymour, who employs three NPs in her practice. Blackwelder says allowing NPs to practice independently to address the primary-care shortage, by giving them full scope of practice, addresses the “wrong issue.” While he understands that those 21 states and D.C. might need to give NPs full scope of practice to expand patient access to care, he says it’s more important to transform healthcare into a patient-centered, team-based model.

“The more important aspect of this discussion is to not get distracted by issues of independent practice, but that we all have to work together,” says Blackwelder.

HOURS OF TRAINING

Mary Christ, a Farmington, Conn.-based physician and healthcare IT executive at IBM, is also skeptical of giving NPs full scope of practice to address the physician shortage. She says studies surrounding the outcomes of NP-focused care should be commissioned before this happens. What concerns her most though, is that NPs have a lot fewer hours of training than physicians.

“Nurse practitioners … only need 600 hours [of training]. If they worked a 40-hour week for [15] weeks, they’d be done with clinical training. Think about a doctor. It’s almost 25,000 hours,” says Christ, who claims the key to solving the primary-care physician shortage is making the profession more lucrative to physicians, who come out of medical school with a lot of debt. Cooke does not dispute physicians have more hours of training, a critique she has heard often.

Despite this, she says, “Most NPs become a nurse first and the expertise from working as an RN for many years actually augments what [NPs] do every day in clinical practice. It’s important to note that we all bring things to the table. Even though our education is different, it doesn’t make one worse or better.”

This holds true in Seymour’s practice, where she manages each NP to a certain degree, overseeing their charts depending on their experience. For the most part, she says she works side by side with them. They give Seymour recommendations, read X-rays, take care of lab and radiology reports, and more. For some issues, she is more hands on and for minor issues, she lets them take the lead. But for people like Christ, nurse practitioners can’t provide substitute care because there is a difference. She says being a doctor is a “calling” and they take patients on as part of their lives, while being a NP is a “job.” “That is a vastly different way of looking at things,” she says.

PAs IN FOCUS

This same kind of fiery debate doesn’t typically surround PAs, mainly because physicians and PAs are trained in the same type of medical model. Both Blackwelder and Christ say PAs and physicians typically work hand in hand in a collaborative environment. Still, the profession’s growth in healthcare is held back by “archaic regulations and laws,” according to the AAPA’s Katz. Stephen Hanson, a PA in Bakersfield, Calif., practicing in plastic and reconstructive surgery, says there have been a lot of positive legislative measures — most notably within the ACA — to allow PAs to practice at the top of their training. However, more work needs to be done.

“If we remove a lot of the barriers, like co-signature [of medication orders] and [various] types of administrative, supervisorial [oversight] that don’t improve patient care or patient safety, we’ll go a long way to utilizing PAs [better] in the healthcare system,” says Hanson.


If they get past these barriers, both Hanson and Katz say PAs can help with the primary-care physician shortage by increasing patient access to care. Katz says by practicing autonomously, while still collaborating with the physician, it allows PAs to see more patients. Hanson says this is especially the case in rural and underserved areas.

FUTURE IS BRIGHT

PAs like Katz and NPs like Cooke have seen their fields grow significantly and don’t see that slowing down anytime soon. Hanson says the PA profession is reaching a critical mass and it is continuously listed among the best jobs to have in healthcare. So despite the uncertainty surrounding NPs and PAs, in terms of scope of practice and whether or not they can address the primary-care physician shortage, their spot in future medical practices is not in jeopardy.

Most would agree advanced practitioners are here to stay and will become an integral component of the team-based approach to patient care. “I think physicians in most settings would benefit from having a PA work with them. I’ve seen it over and over again how much more effective team practice is when there is trust and respect between the professions. I’ve been blessed to have that and our patients have benefited from that. Physicians should be open to different models of primary care,” Hanson says.

THE SPECIALIZATION OF ADVANCED PRACTITIONERS

It’s no secret that a lot of doctors fresh out of medical school are going into subspecialties, which often means similar hours but higher pay than primary-care physicians, according to results from Physicians Practice’s Physician Compensation and Great American Physician surveys.

The Great American Physician survey revealed that most physicians — specialty or not — work between 41 hours and 60 hours per week. The Physician Compensation Survey indicated that 13 percent of specialty physicians earned more than $450,001 in annual income, whereas only 3.7 percent of primary-care doctors brought in that kind of income. The shortage of primary-care physicians will only worsen over time if this trend continues. Hence, physician assistants (PAs) and nurse practitioners (NPs) have been looked at by many — including HHS’ Health Resources and Services Administration — as a potential way to solve this problem. But what if PAs and NPs themselves are going into specialties?

This is a trend, according to many experts. “I’ve seen the trend with my subspecialty [physician] colleagues to have nurses and PAs work with them. We did a survey and 50 percent of our members are working with NPs and 40 percent with PAs. That’s our specialty-specific numbers,” says Reid Blackwelder, a family medicine physician, past president of the American Academy of Family Physicians (AAFP), and professor of family medicine at the Quillen College of Medicine at East Tennessee State University. AAFP’s Robert Graham Center, a non-profit research firm that focuses on improving primary-care at a population health level, used data from the National Provider Identifier file and found that only 43.2 percent of PAs and 52.4 percent of NPs work in primary care.

Stephen Hanson, a physician assistant in Bakersfield, Calif., practicing in plastic and reconstructive surgery, has also seen the trend of large numbers of PAs working in specialty care. “When I graduated in 1981 … we largely came from a primary-care profession to now [a large] percent of PAs work in specialty care. It’s been a dramatic shift of where PAs are being deployed,” he says. Hanson says because of the ways PAs are trained, they can switch specialties fairly easily. He says he has been in six specialties throughout his 34-year career. On the other side, the vast majority of NPs are trained in primary care.

A survey from the Henry J. Kaiser Family Foundation indicates that approximately 90 percent of NPs have this kind of background. However, according to Cindy Cooke, president of the American Association of Nurse Practitioners (AANP), and a former family medicine nurse practitioner at Fox Army Health Center in Huntsville, Ala., there are many NPs going into specialty care. Elizabeth Seymour, a family medicine physician at the Medical Associates of Denton, Texas, who employs three NPs in her practice, confirms that trend. “NPs fit in, especially in primary care, but what I’m seeing though is many are specializing. They’re going to work for gastroenterologists, orthopedic surgeons, neurosurgeons, or working in the ER. They fit in everywhere as long as it helps out the physician,” says Seymour.

The principal reason that specialization is on the rise for advanced practitioners is likely the same reason fewer doctors are entering primary care: money. According to a survey from the American Academy of Physician Assistants, which surveyed 10,000 of its members across a variety of specialties on their salaries, PAs in dermatology ($117,000), emergency medicine ($108,000) and surgery ($105,000) have a higher median salary than those in primary care ($94,000) and family medicine ($93,400).

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This is of course all troll bait, but I'll be happy to bite.

I've been an attending for less than 3 months and work with two PAs in their mid 50s. Nearly every day I teach them something "brand new" that should be basic knowledge for my specialty.

It's quite fascinating. They're very nice guys, but I can't even begin to describe the divide in knowledge and ability between us, despite their 20+ years more "experience."

And it's even worse with NPs.
 
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This is of course all troll bait, but I'll be happy to bite.

I've been an attending for less than 3 months and work with two PAs in their mid 50s. Nearly every day I teach them something "brand new" that should be basic knowledge for my specialty.

It's quite fascinating. They're very nice guys, but I can't even begin to describe the divide in knowledge and ability between us, despite their 20+ years more "experience."

And it's even worse with NPs.

I think it's pretty obvious that physicians know more than mid-levels, and from your informed (and probably very accurate) perspective it would be hard to imagine those PAs you work with practicing autonomously. Unfortunately that perspective means very little to the folks that ultimately will be deciding the future healthcare landscape in this country.

If you're running a business, and you can get away with hiring 5 PAs/NPs for $100k each instead of 5 MDs for $250k each -- it sort of becomes a no brainer from a purely financial perspective. The only obstacle in their path is proving that outcomes would be comparable, or rather getting the general public to believe that outcomes would be comparable. I suspect there's already a lot of dollars being poured into questionable research that can be spun into making it look like your mountains of knowledge over the PAs you work with means nothing as far as outcomes, and more dollars beyond that to news agencies that will pump their agenda to make the public believe what it needs to in order to pass proper legislation.

Maybe I have an overly sinister outlook because I worked in finance for so long, but I've seen this happen so many times in other industries it almost seems inevitable that healthcare is soon to follow.
 
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No wonder the doctor's upset. If I had to carry that many people on a regular basis I'd also be surprised every day I managed to go without getting a herniated disc.
 
I think it's pretty obvious that physicians know more than mid-levels, and from your informed (and probably very accurate) perspective it would be hard to imagine those PAs you work with practicing autonomously. Unfortunately that perspective means very little to the folks that ultimately will be deciding the future healthcare landscape in this country.

If you're running a business, and you can get away with hiring 5 PAs/NPs for $100k each instead of 5 MDs for $250k each -- it sort of becomes a no brainer from a purely financial perspective. The only obstacle in their path is proving that outcomes would be comparable, or rather getting the general public to believe that outcomes would be comparable. I suspect there's already a lot of dollars being poured into questionable research that can be spun into making it look like your mountains of knowledge over the PAs you work with means nothing as far as outcomes, and more dollars beyond that to news agencies that will pump their agenda to make the public believe what it needs to in order to pass proper legislation.

Maybe I have an overly sinister outlook because I worked in finance for so long, but I've seen this happen so many times in other industries it almost seems inevitable that healthcare is soon to follow.

I firmly believe that the midlevels in my practice are primarily responsible for drug-resistant bugs in the United States. It is astounding to see how often they jump to prescribing antibiotics for conditions that are, to me, quite obviously not infectious.
 
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I firmly believe that the midlevels in my practice are primarily responsible for drug-resistant bugs in the United States. It is astounding to see how often they jump to prescribing antibiotics for conditions that are, to me, quite obviously not infectious.

My favorite is when I hear "I think you have viral pharyngitis," followed by a prescription for amoxicillin.
 
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This is of course all troll bait, but I'll be happy to bite.

I've been an attending for less than 3 months and work with two PAs in their mid 50s. Nearly every day I teach them something "brand new" that should be basic knowledge for my specialty.

It's quite fascinating. They're very nice guys, but I can't even begin to describe the divide in knowledge and ability between us, despite their 20+ years more "experience."

And it's even worse with NPs.

I'm fresh out of medical school and I've taught PAs with decades of experience things that I thought were obvious to everyone in healthcare. It's really an eyeopener and makes me very wary of independent midlevel practice.
 
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I firmly believe that the midlevels in my practice are primarily responsible for drug-resistant bugs in the United States. It is astounding to see how often they jump to prescribing antibiotics for conditions that are, to me, quite obviously not infectious.

ha yeah, contrariwise, we had a funny consult the other day for a "hernia" from an NP...it was a giant, ugly, obvious groin abscess.
 
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I'm fresh out of medical school and I've taught PAs with decades of experience things that I thought were obvious to everyone in healthcare. It's really an eyeopener and makes me very wary of independent midlevel practice.

I'm only an MS3 and I've had to correct nurses with at least a decade of experience on things I'd thought they'd have figured out in the first few months. Example: a psych nurse should know that you write a prescription for 20mg of Lexapro, not 2o0mg and that or that 2.5mg of Xanax/day is not a "starting point". Thankfully, this isn't the norm (from what I've seen), but the lack of basic knowledge in a midlevel's field of choice can be downright depressing at times.
 
This is of course all troll bait,.
Not really troll bait, just another reminder to the delusional people on these forums that the mid-levels really actually 100% do think they can completely replace them (from the mouth of the AANP president herself), and that this belief is widespread among politicians as well.
 
Thankfully, this isn't the norm (from what I've seen)
No, it is actually the norm. An NP mistook me for a pharmacist during my M2 year - her question was whether metoprolol (she pronounced it Topermol) was an adequate substitute for warfarin.

This is a woman who was independently treating patients in primary care setting.
 
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I think it's pretty obvious that physicians know more than mid-levels, and from your informed (and probably very accurate) perspective it would be hard to imagine those PAs you work with practicing autonomously. Unfortunately that perspective means very little to the folks that ultimately will be deciding the future healthcare landscape in this country.

If you're running a business, and you can get away with hiring 5 PAs/NPs for $100k each instead of 5 MDs for $250k each -- it sort of becomes a no brainer from a purely financial perspective. The only obstacle in their path is proving that outcomes would be comparable, or rather getting the general public to believe that outcomes would be comparable. I suspect there's already a lot of dollars being poured into questionable research that can be spun into making it look like your mountains of knowledge over the PAs you work with means nothing as far as outcomes, and more dollars beyond that to news agencies that will pump their agenda to make the public believe what it needs to in order to pass proper legislation.

Maybe I have an overly sinister outlook because I worked in finance for so long, but I've seen this happen so many times in other industries it almost seems inevitable that healthcare is soon to follow.

What about malpractice when things go wrong? That could be a lot of money that'd be going out to paying patients for the mistakes made by the midlevels. With autonomy comes liability.
 
What about malpractice when things go wrong? That could be a lot of money that'd be going out to paying patients for the mistakes made by the midlevels. With autonomy comes liability.

Sure that's the other side of it, and malpractice insurance will probably increase for these places -- but not nearly as much as they'd be saving in salaries. Also with the number of waivers patients sign these days, it's getting to the point where unless there's malicious intent the patient probably isn't going to win that case.
 
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Sure that's the other side of it, and malpractice insurance will probably increase for these places -- but not nearly as much as they'd be saving in salaries. Also with the number of waivers patients sign these days, it's getting to the point where unless there's malicious intent the patient probably isn't going to win that case.
I wish. Not even close.
 
No, it is actually the norm. An NP mistook me for a pharmacist during my M2 year - her question was whether metoprolol (she pronounced it Topermol) was an adequate substitute for warfarin.

This is a woman who was independently treating patients in primary care setting.

Sounds like an idiot. Any undergraduate nursing student would know that metoprolol is a beta blocker and warfarin is an anticoagulant.
 
Sounds like an idiot. Any undergraduate nursing student would know that metoprolol is a beta blocker and warfarin is an anticoagulant.

makes u wonder why they don't ever raise the bar in clinical education for nurses instead of teaching "holistic care" and "nursing theory"
 
Sounds like an idiot. Any undergraduate nursing student would know that metoprolol is a beta blocker and warfarin is an anticoagulant.

Well of course they probably do know this. But that doesn't mean they have an understanding of when one is appropriate vs the other.
 
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@cbrons @username456789 There is something seriously wrong with where they went to school. If they had any class that covered INR and drug classification they should have a basic idea unless this was an outside of the box scenario and they were looking for a differential.
 
@cbrons @username456789 There is something seriously wrong with where they went to school if they never went over INR.

You're missing the point. Pretty sure in the example given (it was discussed before), an NP in the ED was planning on giving someone with new onset a-fib warfarin as an acute solution because they have apparently learned "a-fib is treated with warfarin". Absolutely no understanding of the rhyme or reason behind what we do and why we do it.
 
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The consults I get from NPs make me want to hurt myself, they are such a waste of time. I can't tell if they are actually too lazy or stupid to not put on a splint themselves. Most of the ED consults are for actual reductions and/or things we need to manage surgically. The NPs call me with non displaced fractures, or things that aren't even fractured at all. Makes me furious.
 
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You're missing the point. Pretty sure in the example given (it was discussed before), an NP in the ED was planning on giving someone with new onset a-fib warfarin as an acute solution because they have apparently learned "a-fib is treated with warfarin". Absolutely no understanding of the rhyme or reason behind what we do and why we do it.
This makes sense. The RN curriculum heavily centers around straight forward recall, procedural reiteration, and step by step diagnosis of diseased states.
 
This is so strange to me as a Canadian. Especially the fact that most NPs become nurses first. In my province, to even apply for an NP position you need to have worked at least 3600 hours as a RN. Then it's an full-time program whereas it seems a lot of US programs are online. Also, it seems the scope of practice is so broad in the US we really only have pediatric and primary care nurse practitioners and their job involves physicals, patient counselling (smoke cessation, family planning), and monitoring of stable conditions or treatment of acute conditions. The thought of nurses doing surgical procedures is just mind blowing.
 
This is so strange to me as a Canadian. Especially the fact that most NPs become nurses first. In my province, to even apply for an NP position you need to have worked at least 3600 hours as a RN. Then it's an full-time program whereas it seems a lot of US programs are online. Also, it seems the scope of practice is so broad in the US we really only have pediatric and primary care nurse practitioners and their job involves physicals, patient counselling (smoke cessation, family planning), and monitoring of stable conditions or treatment of acute conditions. The thought of nurses doing surgical procedures is just mind blowing.

Think of our system like Germany with Angela Merkel at the helm. Inexplicably gleeful to roll out the red carpet to let the outsiders infiltrate and invade under the guise of "being so progressive."

It doesn't make sense over there and it doesn't make sense here. But the world is going insane.
 
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The average difference in quality of student and type of personality of someone whom is a PA student vs a medical student is pretty vast. At least that's what I've noticed at my school. I can't imagine these people practicing on their own. Then in the IPE lectures (of course run by PA professors) it's a nonstop rhetoric of "physicians don't know everything, PAs know just as much and are just as good!" It seriously makes me want to punch myself in the face so hard.
 
Everyone should support the NP equal pay campaign. It's the only way we're going to get out of this ****show, and maybe expanding GME/FMG access. I'd rather make a little less and work with physicians exclusively than work with these people who make me want to scream and pull my hair out on a daily basis
 
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The data suggests otherwise. Malpractice payments today only 60% of what they were in 2004 -- adjusted for inflation. Seems to be declining every year.

https://www.npdb.hrsa.gov/resources/npdbstats/npdbStatistics.jsp#ContentTop
You said malicious intent. If you have malicious intent you can sue above malpractice! Malpractice is just negligence -> injury -> damages. It has absolutely nothing to do with being malicious. You can be the nicest doctor in the world, do everything right, and still lose a malpractice case. Hence why I said what I said.

There is some tort reform going on in some states which is great, but you can still get sued and lose for a lot of stupid stuff at the moment. Mostly because "standard of care" is whatever the jury decides it is on that day in the courtroom.
 
No, it is actually the norm. An NP mistook me for a pharmacist during my M2 year - her question was whether metoprolol (she pronounced it Topermol) was an adequate substitute for warfarin.

This is a woman who was independently treating patients in primary care setting.

Idk, from what I've seen so far, on rotations and in previous work, most nurses are either competent enough to be able to handle the basics or know when they're over their head and defer to physicians or nurses who know what they're doing. To be fair though, I've only worked with 1 or 2 NPs directly who both had 30+ years of experience in their field and still were working under a physician.

I know there's midlevel encroachment, and I've heard plenty of stories of mid-levels trying to push their practice rights past the scope of their education/abilities, but I haven't seen it to the extent that a lot of people on here have, and I've been in quite a few different healthcare settings for a pretty long time.
 
You're missing the point. Pretty sure in the example given (it was discussed before), an NP in the ED was planning on giving someone with new onset a-fib warfarin as an acute solution because they have apparently learned "a-fib is treated with warfarin". Absolutely no understanding of the rhyme or reason behind what we do and why we do it.

I never knew why anticoagulants were given in the setting of new onset a-fib when I scribed in an ED before medical school. I asked the attending and it then became quite obvious. At the time though I didn't know much about hemostasis and that blood could clot so easily during fibrillation. Felt good to get that small nugget of knowledge into the brain.
 
Think of our system like Germany with Angela Merkel at the helm. Inexplicably gleeful to roll out the red carpet to let the outsiders infiltrate and invade under the guise of "being so progressive."

It doesn't make sense over there and it doesn't make sense here. But the world is going insane.

I like your geopolitical analogy.
 
Idk, from what I've seen so far, on rotations and in previous work, most nurses are either competent enough to be able to handle the basics or know when they're over their head and defer to physicians or nurses who know what they're doing. To be fair though, I've only worked with 1 or 2 NPs directly who both had 30+ years of experience in their field and still were working under a physician.

I know there's midlevel encroachment, and I've heard plenty of stories of mid-levels trying to push their practice rights past the scope of their education/abilities, but I haven't seen it to the extent that a lot of people on here have, and I've been in quite a few different healthcare settings for a pretty long time.

If you're on rotations and you don't already know more than the mid levels then you're doing it wrong.
 
If you're on rotations and you don't already know more than the mid levels then you're doing it wrong.

I'm not exclusively talking about the basic info that comes up on shelves and boards, in that area M3s should obviously know more. However, the midlevels with 30+ years experience in a single field should know more about "real-world medicine" in that field than some M3 rotating in that field for the first time. After all, plenty of people on here say even interns know less about how to actually work independently in a field until a couple months in than some of the midlevels, saying an M3 should be as capable after doing a 4 week rotation is just silly.
 
During my internship a nurse thought aspirin would affect the INR
 
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