Every DO school has "Solid Match Lists."

[Anicetus]

Why is it that I have yet to see people say their school has a bad match list?

When looking at school comparisons, everyone says their school had a "solid match list."

Is this because the one special snowflake got a Baylor Residency and so the rest of the match list is considered solid?

When I compare MD and DO match lists it looks like there is absolutely no comparison, so to what standards do people claim their school has a solid match list?

Any insight on this would be appreciated, thanks.

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[Spindrift11B4]

I have noticed this same thing, and it is kind of comical. I don't know if it is misinformation, an overly optimistic outlook, or most probably, a lack of any real knowledge of what makes a, "solid match list." I think some people just look over last years match, see some specialties, maybe recognize the name of a hospital or two and conclude that it is "solid."

I think it is important to look at trends in the match list over several years, look at what kind of competitive specialties students consistently place into, and attempt to ascertain what residency programs are actually considered "good," and then analyze the lists of your particular school of interest according to that criteria. But I'm just headed into it all myself, so what do I know? I just try to view the lists as a guideline or an indicator rather than an end all be all.

 

[Isha2018]

For me, I'll just be glad if my entire class matches. In that way, we'll at least all be able to become practicing physicians. I think a 100% residency placement rate is at least one important criterion when comparing schools.

 

[DrBowtie]

For me, I'll just be glad if my entire class matches. In that way, we'll at least all be able to become practicing physicians. I think a 100% residency placement rate is at least one important criterion when comparing schools.

If everyone matches, then the match list is solid. That's all there is to it

Most times it's not the schools fault if people go unmatched. Applicants do dumb things and ignore advice.

Applying to unrealistic specialties and with limited geography happens in every class

 

[bionerd89]

Does the school's match list actually mean that much? For example, if someone went to a school that is known to have a "bad" match list , but the student has really high board scores, is ranked top of their class and has good letter of recommendation, wouldn't they still have a pretty good chance of getting into an upper tier residency ?

 

[Isha2018]

Most times it's not the schools fault if people go unmatched. Applicants do dumb things and ignore advice.

Applying to unrealistic specialties and with limited geography happens in every class

Makes sense. Maybe making decisions off match lists is just a crap shoot.

 

[SurgeDO]

match lists are irrelevant unless you know the % of first choice matches.

 

[DrBowtie]

match lists are irrelevant unless you know the % of first choice matches.

Even then. First choice is really first choice of default options.

Potential to not be able to apply to specialty of top choice, then not get interviews of top choice then select "top choice" out of the programs that actually interviews them.

 

[Dark Ace]

This question may reveal some of my ignorance as I haven't looked much into this yet. I think it's also somewhat related to the original post. Does rotating at a smaller/rural hospital as compared to a bigger hospital allow you to perform "better" at said rotation (due to fewer or more attendings there to help)? Or is that not how it works?

 

[Escape_Goat]

I think ranking by match lists is kind if dumb. You can't base quality by specialties, since all that really indicates is what specialties that cohort of students wanted to go into. I suppose you could then look at trends in matches over several years to see if students consistently matched into competitive specialties, but then why not just look at trends in Step 1 scores? But then, higher Step 1 scores may just indicate that the school screens more than other schools and therefore attracts and accepts students that perform better academically or on standardized tests.

If your looking at what residency programs students got into within a specialty, how do you determine the quality? Aside from well-known hospitals, they're just lists of a hundred hospitals most people outside the respective area of each have never heard of. Even looking at big-names, they might have a great program for one specialty, but a **** one for another.

Seems like just another metric for people to quantify the "prestige" they'll acquire once they become a physician.

 

[pattr]

There are no good metrics to "grade" match lists except if you're very familiar with residency programs, which not even residency applicants are. Really only program directors are familiar with the different programs in their field and even then it's on a regional basis.

You can only look at match lists based on specialties and "big name" programs at this point... anyway match lists do not predict YOUR success at all so it's pretty useless to try to analyze them.

 

[darklabel]

I think ranking by match lists is kind if dumb. You can't base quality by specialties, since all that really indicates is what specialties that cohort of students wanted to go into. I suppose you could then look at trends in matches over several years to see if students consistently matched into competitive specialties, but then why not just look at trends in Step 1 scores? But then, higher Step 1 scores may just indicate that the school screens more than other schools and therefore attracts and accepts students that perform better academically or on standardized tests.

If your looking at what residency programs students got into within a specialty, how do you determine the quality? Aside from well-known hospitals, they're just lists of a hundred hospitals most people outside the respective area of each have never heard of. Even looking at big-names, they might have a great program for one specialty, but a **** one for another.

Seems like just another metric for people to quantify the "prestige" they'll acquire once they become a physician.

True. I think when people say "solid match lists", there's either some level of bias, they see a few select specialties that are difficult to get (1 Nuerosurg match? Great match list), or just premeds like myself and even medical students who have no idea what a good or bad match list consists of. Even if you look at MD schools, most of their match lists are primary care related (especially low tier MD schools, most of which are considered low tier on SDN just because of their missions statement). Also residents and most attendings can't even give their perspective on the entirety of the match lists except for what they are specializing in, such as asking an EM doc whether a surgery program is good or not.

As long as you recognize what is likely and unlikely as a DO student, a match list shouldn't be a huge factor when considering schools.

 

[wjs010]

So is there no point in looking at match lists? What. Makes a good match list?

 

[pattr]

So is there no point in looking at match lists? What. Makes a good match list?

if the students all got more or less what they wanted... which there's no way to know for sure.

 

[cabinbuilder]

Does the school's match list actually mean that much? For example, if someone went to a school that is known to have a "bad" match list , but the student has really high board scores, is ranked top of their class and has good letter of recommendation, wouldn't they still have a pretty good chance of getting into an upper tier residency ?

Nope, the match list is just a reflection of the students of that year, what the individual wanted to apply for and where they applied. It has nothing to do with the school at all nor will it be a factor that affects you 6 years from now.

The student with the "package" that you describe has a good chance at any residency - granted they apply to what you deem is "upper tier". That's the problem with trying to analyze match lists. You don't know what each student was looking for in a residency, how many they applied to, and what their "top" choices for themselves are.

To choose a school based on their match list and how it will relate to you is just naive. Pick a school where you will be happy and successful. The match the pertains to you will only be determined by you - not the school.

 

[cabinbuilder]

So is there no point in looking at match lists? What. Makes a good match list?

No point. Won't pertain to you. The school doesn't determine where you match. The choices the student makes and where that person applies does.

 

[ChineseKid]

No point. Won't pertain to you. The school doesn't determine where you match. The choices the student makes and where that person applies does.

Well, I would think that a good school would aid in showing you what you should be doing right?
A good school should help you to zone in onto what you want and what you want to strive you IMO.

 

[coolingglasses]

lol match lists

 

[cabinbuilder]

Well, I would think that a good school would aid in showing you what you should be doing right?
A good school should help you to zone in onto what you want and what you want to strive you IMO.

As far as? That's the purpose of rotations, to give you insight into each career. That's how you determine what you love to do and what residency path to apply to. A good school will prepare you well for the board exams so you do well so you have the best opportunity to apply to the residency you want because you got the scores you need.

 

[ChineseKid]

^ Everything I guess? On one hand, I agree it's not healthy to be spoon fed everything. However, it's beneficial to be led to the right direction to say... scholarships, fellowship, or which area will suit you the most. Just IMO.

Totally agree with the purpose of rotations.

 

[cabinbuilder]

^ Everything I guess? On one hand, I agree it's not healthy to be spoon fed everything. However, it's beneficial to be led to the right direction to say... scholarships, fellowship, or which area will suit you the most. Just IMO.

Totally agree with the purpose of rotations.

If you think any school is going to do this for you, it will be a very disappointing rude awakening. Scholarships in med school? Fellowship happens after residency and the school you went to is irrelevant. Rotations are what will open your eyes to what you love - not the school. The school's job is to teach you what you need to know in order to get a good score/pass the board exams. The rest is up to you.

 

[ChineseKid]

Hmmm thought as much.
Would've been nice though!

Guess I'll see next yr

 

[Anicetus]

As far as? That's the purpose of rotations, to give you insight into each career. That's how you determine what you love to do and what residency path to apply to. A good school will prepare you well for the board exams so you do well so you have the best opportunity to apply to the residency you want because you got the scores you need.

Unless it's a top tier MD where you can get by with average USMLE.

 

[cabinbuilder]

Unless it's a top tier MD where you can get by with average USMLE.

OK, but this thread is about DO school match lists. Not sure what your point is????

 

[Goro]

All I can say is that for my school, I view things as the aggregate, and our graduating classes land very well, and not simply because one guy got into X specialty, or two others got into Y. If one goes down the list, one sees name places popping up over and over, and few "tradition rotations" (or whatever they call it if they don't match).

So, look over the match lists and decide for yourself.

Why is it that I have yet to see people say their school has a bad match list?

When looking at school comparisons, everyone says their school had a "solid match list."

Is this because the one special snowflake got a Baylor Residency and so the rest of the match list is considered solid?

When I compare MD and DO match lists it looks like there is absolutely no comparison, so to what standards do people claim their school has a solid match list?

Any insight on this would be appreciated, thanks.

 

[235009]

All I can say is that for my school, I view things as the aggregate, and our graduating classes land very well, and not simply because one guy got into X specialty, or two others got into Y. If one goes down the list, one sees name places popping up over and over, and few "tradition rotations" (or whatever they call it if they don't match).

So, look over the match lists and decide for yourself.

as you can see even adcom members don't understand match lists so when one of them tells you their match list is "strong" you should prob take it with a grain of salt or assume that they are just telling you what they think you want to hear.

 

[Goro]

OK, let's try this again. Out of say, 100 graduates, I see, say 50% of my students going to places with the title of "University of... ___ Medical Center". Maybe 10-20% end up in "Smith Valley Medical Center and Cafe".

Maybe 5% end up in "traditional rotations", another 5% go into the military, and the remainder are in community hospitals or regional medical centers like Kaiser, HCA, Asencion etc.

The % of the "name" places (defined as "ones that I recognize"), keep going up. That's because our graduate medical education people know what they're doing.

So, I think our match lists are fine, and we're not trumpeting the success of 3 three exceptional grads. So, I challenge the readers of the forum to look over match lists (which are available) and decide for yourselves over the merits of the DO programs and where their grads end up.

Capeesh?

as you can see even adcom members don't understand match lists so when one of them tells you their match list is "strong" you should prob take it with a grain of salt or assume that they are just telling you what they think you want to hear.

 

[hallowmann]

Ultimately, I think that's a reasonable enough way to look at it. The real problem is that the data we need to assess how well a school prepares its students, average board scores, aren't really published by most schools, so we are stuck speculating by looking at a set of the last few match lists. Unfortunately, there are many factors that make extrapolating information from those lists cumbersome for even the most experienced individuals.

 

[235009]

OK, let's try this again. Out of say, 100 graduates, I see, say 50% of my students going to places with the title of "University of... ___ Medical Center". Maybe 10-20% end up in "Smith Valley Medical Center and Cafe".

Maybe 5% end up in "traditional rotations", another 5% go into the military, and the remainder are in community hospitals or regional medical centers like Kaiser, HCA, Asencion etc.

The % of the "name" places (defined as "ones that I recognize"), keep going up. That's because our graduate medical education people know what they're doing.

So, I think our match lists are fine, and we're not trumpeting the success of 3 three exceptional grads. So, I challenge the readers of the forum to look over match lists (which are available) and decide for yourselves over the merits of the DO programs and where their grads end up.

Capeesh?

so what you're saying is that you read a rank list like any uninformed premed on SDN would

 

[Seth Joo]

The whole idea of solid match lists is misleading. Also at many schools a large percent of graduates often go to AOA residencies rather than ACGME. A lot of people want to get into MD residencies.

 

[touchpause13]

So what does a large number of people doing traditional rotating intership mean?

 

[FutureGlobalDoc]

Regarding getting "matched" into residencies, I was under the assumption that any specialty could be obtained from almost any school as long as you scored within an acceptable range on Step 1. That being said, then there are the obvious factors of influence: DO or MD, your medical schools affiliations/network, competitiveness, LOR's, and then the not so hidden yet important gem of gearing your ec's towards your "dream" residencies mission/values. This last factor is of course not always easy, since many of us are not sure of where we'd like to end up.

 

[cliquesh]

So what does aer of people doing traditional rotating intership mean?

They did not match or they matched a pgy2 position (like neurology, anesthesia, rads) that requires an internship. Most people in my class that are doing a traditional internship failed to match.

 

[touchpause13]

They did not match or they matched a pgy2 position (like neurology, anesthesia, rads) that requires an internship. Most people in my class that are doing a traditional internship failed to match.

The thought of not matching scares the piss out of me

 

[cliquesh]

The thought of not matching scares the piss out of me

Take the usmle and score around average (~225), and you'll have plenty of options.

 

[Awesome Sauceome]

Take the usmle and score around average (~225), and you'll have plenty of options.

So what types of things change for the applicant after not matching the first time? I am pretty ignorant to the process and this interests me for sure. For example most of the people that match traditional rotation from your school, do they have to reapply to the match the following year, or do they get picked up in some other way (seeing as they are now associated with a hospital). Is there something in particular that they would have to do to help get them matched? For instance if you are pre-med and you dont get into a school, you will retake the MCAT, maybe get some more research or clinical experience etc. What sorts of things need to happen if one matches into a traditional rotation (without matching into a PGY2 in the first place) in order to match the following year?

Also is pay the same for a traditional rotation? I mean obviously you arent PAYING like you do in med school which is good! But would it be safe to assume that you are payed the rate that other residents at that hospital would be payed? That would be really hard on some families if you are expecting to start making a resident salary and then are not payed as much/anything.

 

[cliquesh]

So what types of things change for the applicant after not matching the first time? I am pretty ignorant to the process and this interests me for sure. For example most of the people that match traditional rotation from your school, do they have to reapply to the match the following year, or do they get picked up in some other way (seeing as they are now associated with a hospital). Is there something in particular that they would have to do to help get them matched? For instance if you are pre-med and you dont get into a school, you will retake the MCAT, maybe get some more research or clinical experience etc. What sorts of things need to happen if one matches into a traditional rotation (without matching into a PGY2 in the first place) in order to match the following year?

Also is pay the same for a traditional rotation? I mean obviously you arent PAYING like you do in med school which is good! But would it be safe to assume that you are payed the rate that other residents at that hospital would be payed? That would be really hard on some families if you are expecting to start making a resident salary and then are not payed as much/anything.

You, in general, have to reapply. People who fail to match, particularly those who fail to match into competitive fields, may apply for a different speciality the second time around. A decent number of people in my class failed to match EM, and I wouldn't be surprised if many of them end up in IM or family. On the other hand, some people try to boast their application and reapply to the same speciality. I have a bud who wants orthopedics bad, so he spent the last year doing research. And then some people fail to match because they make a dumb rank list, like interviewing at 10 places but only ranking 2 programs. These people just need to to apply to a bunch of programs and be less picky. People doing Traditional rotating internships get paid the same as other residents/interns, which is around 50k depending on your location.

 

[cabinbuilder]

The pay is the same for traditional rotating internship. It's not a punishment to end up in one. Most internships are linked to a residency program - family practice, for instance. However, if you wanted to do something like anesthesia, or EM or Radiology or another residency that only matches you into the PGY-2 yr without a linked intern year then you would do an intern year somewhere else and then start your residency (that you were already matched into) the next year.

 

[FutureGlobalDoc]

The pay is the same for traditional rotating internship. It's not a punishment to end up in one. Most internships are linked to a residency program - family practice, for instance. However, if you wanted to do something like anesthesia, or EM or Radiology or another residency that only matches you into the PGY-2 yr without a linked intern year then you

The pay is the same for traditional rotating internship. It's not a punishment to end up in one. Most internships are linked to a residency program - family practice, for instance. However, if you wanted to do something like anesthesia, or EM or Radiology or another residency that only matches you into the PGY-2 yr without a linked intern year then you would do an intern year somewhere else and then start your residency (that you were already matched into) the next year.

Can you explain further about pgy-2 residencies? This is new to me.. There are residencies that require you fulfill a internship/training before the actual residency begins? Are med students responsible for getting placement into these pre-pgy2 residencies?

 

[cabinbuilder]

Not sure what else to explain? Like I said in my prior post. Many residencies start as PGY-2 like I listed above. So yes, as a med student you would have to plan match in both an intern year and your residency. Some just try to match into the residency and then just scramble into an intern year because they are just fulfilling a requirement and don't really care where they do it.

Where I went to residency there were 10 intern slots. About half of those were with FP-linked residents, the other half were slated to go elsewhere after the first year: a few were military, many did PM&R, OB/GYN, radiology, EM, Ophtho, etc. Additionally, many students don't match into a PGY-2 slot the first time around and end up doing an intern year somewhere, do well and better their chances of matching the next year. I have 2 friends from residency who did that. They were with us for intern year, re-applied and went on to GYN and EM. The others already had matched into their rads, PM&R, and Ophtho residencies prior to coming to us.

That's the difference between a "linked" and "un-linked" residency program. Either it is attached to an intern year or it's not.

 

[TopTomato]

Not sure what else to explain? Like I said in my prior post. Many residencies start as PGY-2 like I listed above. So yes, as a med student you would have to plan match in both an intern year and your residency. Some just try to match into the residency and then just scramble into an intern year because they are just fulfilling a requirement and don't really care where they do it.

Where I went to residency there were 10 intern slots. About half of those were with FP-linked residents, the other half were slated to go elsewhere after the first year: a few were military, many did PM&R, OB/GYN, radiology, EM, Ophtho, etc. Additionally, many students don't match into a PGY-2 slot the first time around and end up doing an intern year somewhere, do well and better their chances of matching the next year. I have 2 friends from residency who did that. They were with us for intern year, re-applied and went on to GYN and EM. The others already had matched into their rads, PM&R, and Ophtho residencies prior to coming to us.

That's the difference between a "linked" and "un-linked" residency program. Either it is attached to an intern year or it's not.

I've always wondered how it worked and I wasn't quite sure. I got accepted to PCOM, and I see on their match list they had 9 people match Anesthesiology last year. But I know that requires an intern year, so are you saying these people that are matched on the list for anesthesiology have a linked intern year and are not considered part of the 29 they have listed as matched to "internship"?

 

[cabinbuilder]

I've always wondered how it worked and I wasn't quite sure. I got accepted to PCOM, and I see on their match list they had 9 people match Anesthesiology last year. But I know that requires an intern year, so are you saying these people that are matched on the list for anesthesiology have a linked intern year and are not considered part of the 29 they have listed as matched to "internship"?

You cannot assume that everyone who match anesthesia matched into an unlinked program. You would not know that unless you looked at each program. Just like you cannot assume that those folks listed in the internship group already have a residency lined up. They may or may not.

 

[FutureGlobalDoc]

You cannot assume that everyone who match anesthesia matched into an unlinked program. You would not know that unless you looked at each program. Just like you cannot assume that those folks listed in the internship group already have a residency lined up. They may or may not.

So, what I've gathered is this picture, please correct me if i'm wrong: People who are accepted for a pgy-2 residency are responsible for also matching into a pgy-1 internship/program, unless they are accepted to a LINKED program which takes care of your first year for you. Did I miss something important there?

 

[cabinbuilder]

So, what I've gathered is this picture, please correct me if i'm wrong: People who are accepted for a pgy-2 residency are responsible for also matching into a pgy-1 internship/program, unless they are accepted to a LINKED program which takes care of your first year for you. Did I miss something important there?

Now you got it!!!!!

 

[FutureGlobalDoc]

Now you got it!!!!!

Would you be opposed to writing a letter of recommendation on my behalf for med school admissions?

 

[cabinbuilder]

If you can find me, you can shadow me.

 

[as1212559]

Oh look it's this thread.

 

[MaximusD]

They did not match or they matched a pgy2 position (like neurology, anesthesia, rads) that requires an internship. Most people in my class that are doing a traditional internship failed to match.

If I could chime in, you also need to factor in military med people. Some of us are denied the ability to participate in the civilian match by a board that meets in December of each application cycle. Those people would show as a prelim match only potentially without the implication of a "weak" application. Not a huge portion of classes, but my med school had 10 milmed students out of 260 or so graduates.

 

[Mad Jack]

If you're looking for super-competitive specialties, DO match lists don't look fantastic compared to allo lists. If you're looking for moderately competitive specialties, every school I interviewed at looked pretty good.

 

[Muffinho]

If you're looking for super-competitive specialties, DO match lists don't look fantastic compared to allo lists. If you're looking for moderately competitive specialties, every school I interviewed at looked pretty good.

What are the commonly accepted "super competitive" specialties, and what are the "moderately competitive" specialties?

I figure all the surgical residencies and perhaps radiology are very competitive, but I'm unaware beyond that.