Everyone is telling me not to be a physician because of Obamacare?

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I find it entertaining how everyone is trying to place a number on the amount doctors should get paid. If someone wants to trade their labor for monetary compensation, who are you to decide exactly how much that should be? Sure health care is quite expensive, that's what happens when there's high demand and low supply, but that doesn't give ANYONE the right to set a limit on physicians wages. Fundamental economics tells us that if you want increased quality for a lower cost, let the free market handle it. I know my beliefs won't be that popular on this site, but the fact is that legislation in this country makes it TOO difficult to practice medicine (yes, I'm talking about requiring licenses for example) which lowers the competition in the field. Med school would be a hell of a lot less expensive if attendance wasn't required to be a physician. Get rid of all the restrictive legislation, open up more competition in health care, allow people to choose their health care providers based on consumer reports, word-of-mouth, doctor experience (however the hell they want to decide) and there will MUCH more options available (most will be cheaper) and at a higher level of quality. And for the people who fall through the cracks? What happened to these people before medicare and medicaid? Doctors provided care FOR FREE, by CHOICE. The more the government steps in to try and be "the good guy" the less charitable care physicians will provide and the more money that will come out of taxpayers pockets in the end. Obamacare is just another HUGE step in the wrong direction toward socialism.

TL;DR: Free Market = Higher quality care for less cost. Government intrusion = Less competition in the field and higher cost of care.

Kenneth Arrow, 1963. Free market doesn't work in medicine. Never has, never will, never can. Arrow's seminal paper dismissed this possibility before anything like health policy even existed since he created it with that paper. Educate yourself.

Obamacare is not socialism. It's helping to feed more people into the private insurance markets by mandating coverage. Educate yourself, please. Jesus.
 
I find it entertaining how everyone is trying to place a number on the amount doctors should get paid. If someone wants to trade their labor for monetary compensation, who are you to decide exactly how much that should be? Sure health care is quite expensive, that's what happens when there's high demand and low supply, but that doesn't give ANYONE the right to set a limit on physicians wages. Fundamental economics tells us that if you want increased quality for a lower cost, let the free market handle it. I know my beliefs won't be that popular on this site, but the fact is that legislation in this country makes it TOO difficult to practice medicine (yes, I'm talking about requiring licenses for example) which lowers the competition in the field. Med school would be a hell of a lot less expensive if attendance wasn't required to be a physician. Get rid of all the restrictive legislation, open up more competition in health care, allow people to choose their health care providers based on consumer reports, word-of-mouth, doctor experience (however the hell they want to decide) and there will MUCH more options available (most will be cheaper) and at a higher level of quality. And for the people who fall through the cracks? What happened to these people before medicare and medicaid? Doctors provided care FOR FREE, by CHOICE. The more the government steps in to try and be "the good guy" the less charitable care physicians will provide and the more money that will come out of taxpayers pockets in the end. Obamacare is just another HUGE step in the wrong direction toward socialism.

TL;DR: Free Market = Higher quality care for less cost. Government intrusion = Less competition in the field and higher cost of care.


Although I'm against Obamacare, Obama and the ACA have nothing to do with socialism. Lmao

Do kids not study Marx in high school? What do civics classes teach? Lol
 
I support Universal Healthcare and I am 100% opposed to the ACA and Obamacare. Why? They aren't UHC. They are concessions made to for-profit insurance companies who do nothing but cheat Americans and complicate the job of physicians.

I also support high physician compensation. UHC and high salaries are not incompatible.
 
Kenneth Arrow, 1963. Free market doesn't work in medicine. Never has, never will, never can. Arrow's seminal paper dismissed this possibility before anything like health policy even existed since he created it with that paper. Educate yourself.

Obamacare is not socialism. It's helping to feed more people into the private insurance markets by mandating coverage. Educate yourself, please. Jesus.

DocCox should also check out Avik Roy's rebuttal of Arrow's claims, since it's basically the same argument. (Google "Avik Roy Kenneth Arrow")

Only Avik is an idiot and doesn't know how to read because the point isn't that another industry doesn't exist that exhibits the 5 qualities, but that ONLY medicine and health care exhibit ALL FIVE at the same time.

This makes a lot more sense once you read both papers in question.
 
Kenneth Arrow, 1963. Free market doesn't work in medicine. Never has, never will, never can. Arrow's seminal paper dismissed this possibility before anything like health policy even existed since he created it with that paper. Educate yourself.

Obamacare is not socialism. It's helping to feed more people into the private insurance markets by mandating coverage. Educate yourself, please. Jesus.

If someone is unable to afford coverage, who is paying for it? If someone is ABLE to afford coverage, who is paying for it? Are insurance companies allowed to turn people down just because of a pre-existing condition? How will this affect insurance premiums? Answer me these questions and tell me that's not a form of socialism. The healthy and wealthy are paying for care for the poor and sick. Do I have a problem with that? No, as long as it is done VOLUNTARILY. Obamacare is not a voluntary program...
 
Kenneth Arrow, 1963. Free market doesn't work in medicine. Never has, never will, never can. Arrow's seminal paper dismissed this possibility before anything like health policy even existed since he created it with that paper. Educate yourself.

Obamacare is not socialism. It's helping to feed more people into the private insurance markets by mandating coverage. Educate yourself, please. Jesus.

Actually, the government forcing private insurance companies and strong-arming them into accepting higher risk individuals is not indicative of free market economy. It is in fact a subtle form of socialism.

While I do not like the devious tactics of insurance companies, it ought to be their decision on who they can and cannot provide insurance policies for.
 
Actually, the government forcing private insurance companies and strong-arming them into accepting higher risk individuals is not indicative of free market economy. It is in fact a subtle form of socialism.

While I do not like the devious tactics of insurance companies, it ought to be their decision on who they can and cannot provide insurance policies for.

Absolutely... it's called insurance for a reason. You don't crash a car and then go and get insurance for it afterwards to fix the damage. Harsh metaphor, but it's the truth.
 
If you want to become a physician simply because of the paycheck then the jokes actually on you. I was shadowing an ER doc who absolutely loves what he does. He supports the ACA because most patients without health care are reluctant to go to the ER and end up getting sicker than they have to. He told me a story about a forty year old construction worker that came into the hospital because his chest pain became unbearable. He ended up Coding at the hospital and died. If he had insurance I bet he would have came in earlier or at least seen a PCP. Lastly Why would you spend so much of your life doing something you don't have any interest in just for some paper?

I want more of these stories. They make me feel warm inside.
 
Actually, the government forcing private insurance companies and strong-arming them into accepting higher risk individuals is not indicative of free market economy. It is in fact a subtle form of socialism.

While I do not like the devious tactics of insurance companies, it ought to be their decision on who they can and cannot provide insurance policies for.

The insurance companies agreed to it. (Kinda.) They won't say it publicly, but the reason reform passed was because Obama got all the stakeholders and made compromises with all of them before anything made public. Google it and you'll find much praise for this tactic, as it was the only way to get the AMA, PhRMA, AAMC, etc., all behind the bill when the same groups have opposed reform every single time in history.

Overall, though, ACA still forces people to the private market, so it's hardly socialism if HI companies are still running the operations. It's not like the public option passed. (SIGH)
 
Absolutely... it's called insurance for a reason. You don't crash a car and then go and get insurance for it afterwards to fix the damage. Harsh metaphor, but it's the truth.

The free market cannot work in health care. You haven't educated yourself yet.
 
Actually, the government forcing private insurance companies and strong-arming them into accepting higher risk individuals is not indicative of free market economy. It is in fact a subtle form of socialism.

No, it isn't "socialism". Go read Marx and come back to me.

While I do not like the devious tactics of insurance companies, it ought to be their decision on who they can and cannot provide insurance policies for.

Absolutely not. Those leeches ought to be forced to do something good for society for once, to make up for all the pain they have inflicted on people in the past.
 
If someone is unable to afford coverage, who is paying for it? If someone is ABLE to afford coverage, who is paying for it? Are insurance companies allowed to turn people down just because of a pre-existing condition? How will this affect insurance premiums? Answer me these questions and tell me that's not a form of socialism. The healthy and wealthy are paying for care for the poor and sick. Do I have a problem with that? No, as long as it is done VOLUNTARILY. Obamacare is not a voluntary program...

Others. (Would you rather those unable to pay die in the ER? If yes, what if it was your momma? If yes, that is sad.)
Them.
Was yes, now no.
Premiums should go down now that risks are better pooled, hypothetically, but we shall see. It's much more complicated than that BTS.

That's not a form of socialism.

There, I did all you said. Now go educate yourself.

P.S. Mandatory coverage under the ACA is voluntary. You can pay the fine for 3 years and get on with your life. IRS can't jail you for that; it's in the law, written cold and hard. Also, if you're too poor (<400% FPL), mandate doesn't even apply to you.
 
Did I just read "Go read Marx."?

Dead. :laugh:

Marx is flipping out in his grave right now because people are misusing his revolutionary idea (pun intended) wrongly and then laughing at attempts to get people educated about said idea.
 
Did I just read "Go read Marx."?

Dead.

If you want to talk about a subject (socialism), then you should know what you are talking about. The word "socialism" gets thrown around way too much in American politics as people clearly don't have the slightest idea what it means.

Sorry, I'm a poli sci major.
 
If you want to talk about a subject (socialism), then you should know what you are talking about. The word "socialism" gets thrown around way too much in American politics as people clearly don't have the slightest idea what it means.

Sorry, I'm a poli sci major.

Poli sci majors unite. :highfive:
 
The free market cannot work in health care. You haven't educated yourself yet.

Insightful reply 🙄... This isn't realy getting anywhere, and I'm sure we won't convince one another of our beliefs. No disrespect though, MOST people in this country share your sentiments. I happen to disagree because I have seen the power of the free market, and my research has led me to believe that it can work in all fields to improve quality. All I ask is to be open-minded, though. Respect the opinion that while free markets may seem like a tool to maximize profits, most right wingers like myself TRULY believe that they benefit the consumer the most by increasing quality and reducing costs. I realize the other side believes its necessary to force charitable actions in order to bring the underprivileged up in this country, I get that. I just disagree wholeheartedly.
 
If you want to talk about a subject (socialism), then you should know what you are talking about. The word "socialism" gets thrown around way too much in American politics as people clearly don't have the slightest idea what it means.

Sorry, I'm a poli sci major.

Poli Sci...in Pre-Med?
 
Poli sci majors unite. :highfive:

👍


By the way, if y'all care about physician compensation, then the free market is the LAST thing you want. Look at optometry and how large chains are completely destroying opto independence and salaries.
 
Insightful reply 🙄... This isn't realy getting anywhere, and I'm sure we won't convince one another of our beliefs. No disrespect though, MOST people in this country share your sentiments. I happen to disagree because I have seen the power of the free market, and my research has led me to believe that it can work in all fields to improve quality. All I ask is to be open-minded, though. Respect the opinion that while free markets may seem like a tool to maximize profits, most right wingers like myself TRULY believe that they benefit the consumer the most by increasing quality and reducing costs. I realize the other side believes its necessary to force charitable actions in order to bring the underprivileged up in this country, I get that. I just disagree wholeheartedly.

Please read Arrow and come back here. It's only a 12-pg paper. Check out Avik and see why I think he's an idiot. I would love to believe that an FMM can work in health care, but the evidence is overwhelming. Even right-wingers who know about health policy recognize this. This isn't partisanship. Just logic. It's no surprise not even the GOP has brought up FMM bills.
 
Poli Sci...in Pre-Med?

That question mark exemplifies why we are so frustrated with the "discussion" ITT. That Marxism thing iced it. Too many in the medical field know nothing of politics, philosophy, or policy and thus buy into ridiculous notions and beliefs. Any study of the history of medicine in America or elsewhere will reveal that medicine is so intensely political it is not even funny.

So yes, poli sci majors in premed. We'll be battling politically for the rest of our careers, so I'd say it makes sense.
 
Kenneth Arrow, 1963. Free market doesn't work in medicine. Never has, never will, never can. Arrow's seminal paper dismissed this possibility before anything like health policy even existed since he created it with that paper. Educate yourself.

Obamacare is not socialism. It's helping to feed more people into the private insurance markets by mandating coverage. Educate yourself, please. Jesus.

1) I think concierge medicine in some form can be considered to be obeying free-market principles.

2) Obamacare is essentially cronyism at its best: no doubt the insurance lobby played a big role in crafting it, and no doubt they're going to win big once it fully goes into effect.
 
Ya'll have made OP very happy.

SLEEPING-BEAUTY-RUSS-TROLL-DOLL-STORYBOOK1.jpg
 
This x10000. This will destroy physician income

Therefore health care becomes cheaper.... is that a bad thing? Refer to my original post- free market will increase competition so you can decrease health care costs, and increase quality. Doctors wages will be determined by the demand of care for their particular field.
 
That question mark exemplifies why we are so frustrated with the "discussion" ITT. That Marxism thing iced it. Too many in the medical field know nothing of politics, philosophy, or policy and thus buy into ridiculous notions and beliefs. Any study of the history of medicine in America or elsewhere will reveal that medicine is so intensely political it is not even funny.

So yes, poli sci majors in premed. We'll be battling politically for the rest of our careers, so I'd say it makes sense.

Once you're in practice you won't give a ****.

You'll wise up and quickly realize this fight/debate isn't putting any money in your pocket. You'll be so far down one path, you'll have no skill-set outside medicine which can get you the same income.

You won't be 'battling' squat except the MCAT, Step 1, and then spending the rest of your days trying to get reimbursed and playing defensive medicine.

You'll then go on to retire with a solid nest egg. And thats the end of it.
 
Please read Arrow and come back here. It's only a 12-pg paper. Check out Avik and see why I think he's an idiot. I would love to believe that an FMM can work in health care, but the evidence is overwhelming. Even right-wingers who know about health policy recognize this. This isn't partisanship. Just logic. It's no surprise not even the GOP has brought up FMM bills.
The GOP isn't what it used to be - they hardly adhere to free market principles anymore. I will check out that paper, and I'll post back afterwards with my thoughts. Milton Friedman has had some very insightful speeches on free market principles, health care included. If you are looking for a different perspective I would strongly recommend reading his books or searching online for articles / videos.
 
Once you're in practice you won't give a ****.

You'll wise up and quickly realize this fight/debate isn't putting any money in your pocket. You'll be so far down one path, you'll have no skill-set outside medicine which can get you the same income.

You won't be 'battling' squat except the MCAT, Step 1, and then spending the rest of your days trying to get reimbursed and playing defensive medicine.

You'll then go on to retire with a solid nest egg. And thats the end of it.

"We" referred to physicians at large. I was talking about medicine at large in the preceding paragraph. And um, I'd say I would still give a ****. I'd say most doctors give plenty of ****s about the ACA and how it'll impact them, even if they don't voice it daily.

And wow! You know a lot about the future! Can you tell me what I'm gonna get on my MCAT? Or if I'll pass or fail Step 2 CS? Fanks
 
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"We" referred to physicians at large. And um, I'd say I would still give a ****. I'd say most doctors give plenty of ****s about the ACA and how it'll impact them, even if they don't voice it daily.

Nope. Ppl just need something to stimulate them every once in a while so they think they give a ****. They don't. It's just talk.

Ask any well established doctor if they'd go lobby for a day on Capitol Hill.

They'd say, "F*ck that. Every day my office is closed is money out my pocket. One more day further from retirement."

That's why doctors will always weasel their way out of jury duty. Could they be doing something "right"? Sure. Will they give a ****? Nope.

During jury selection: "I would say I have a tendency to sympathize with the victim, its what I do for a living."
Translation: "You want to keep me on this deadbeat jury for weeks at minimum wage on an open and shut case, when I could be making $1000/day? Aint nobody got time for that!"
 
Therefore health care becomes cheaper.... is that a bad thing? Refer to my original post- free market will increase competition so you can decrease health care costs, and increase quality. Doctors wages will be determined by the demand of care for their particular field.

Physicians' salaries are not why healthcare as a whole is so expensive.
 
Physician's salaries are not why healthcare as a whole is so expensive.

But their incentives drive them to overprescribe and overutilize, which allows the expensive tech and services and drugs and admin fees and shiznit to be paid for. It's all in the same cycle, even if not the direct cause.
 
Physicians' salaries are not why healthcare as a whole is so expensive.

True, which is why we need more competition in the insurance field as well, with more options. I'm hoping the exchanges will foster that competition between insurance companies - only time will tell.
 
But their incentives drive them to overprescribe and overutilize, which allows the expensive tech and services and drugs and admin fees and shiznit to be paid for. It's all in the same cycle, even if not the direct cause.

threat of malpractice lawsuits = defensive medicine = inc. tests = more money down the drain
 
True, which is why we need more competition in the insurance field as well, with more options. I'm hoping the exchanges will foster that competition between insurance companies - only time will tell.

d00000d companies can just work together and rip people off (forget the econ term for that lol)
 
threat of malpractice lawsuits = defensive medicine

Tom Baker, The Medical Malpractice Myth. Evidence, not myth or anecdotes.

Treating more gets you paid, so they do it. It makes sense. Doctors are economic actors. (Being such an actor is not necessarily to be looked down upon, so calm down.)
 
The insurance companies agreed to it. (Kinda.) They won't say it publicly, but the reason reform passed was because Obama got all the stakeholders and made compromises with all of them before anything made public. Google it and you'll find much praise for this tactic, as it was the only way to get the AMA, PhRMA, AAMC, etc., all behind the bill when the same groups have opposed reform every single time in history.

Overall, though, ACA still forces people to the private market, so it's hardly socialism if HI companies are still running the operations. It's not like the public option passed. (SIGH)

Actually they did not..
The only reason for the compromise was for the insurance companies to get something out of it rather than get completely screwed by Obamacare.

The praise went to Obama for mediating the bill, not the bill itself.

No, it isn't "socialism". Go read Marx and come back to me.



Absolutely not. Those leeches ought to be forced to do something good for society for once, to make up for all the pain they have inflicted on people in the past.

yea because being forced to run your business according to the government is what capitalism and liberty is all about right?

Go read the Constitution and come back to me.
 
But their incentives drive them to overprescribe and overutilize, which allows the expensive tech and services and drugs and admin fees and shiznit to be paid for. It's all in the same cycle, even if not the direct cause.

Wtf are you talking about, physicians don't get paid more to order more tests and drugs. They order more tests because they're afraid of missing a Dx and getting the **** sued out of them.
 
Actually they did not..
The only reason for the compromise was for the insurance companies to get something out of it rather than get completely screwed by Obamacare.

The praise went to Obama for mediating the bill, not the bill itself.



yea because being forced to run your business according to the government is what capitalism and liberty is all about right?

Go read the Constitution and come back to me.

d00d they're not screwed. They'll still bank, just a little less. They're getting stuff out of the bill, all right. (Too late EST to type it all out on my phone.)

Here, we'll switch. You go read Marx and figure out all the nuances of his political philosophy, and we'll run a CTRL+F on an online version of the Constitution to see if "capitalism" is mentioned in there at all. If that's the goal of the longest standing Constitution in the world, it's time to get out of 'murica.
 
Wtf are you talking about, physicians don't get paid more to order more tests and drugs. They order more tests because they're afraid of missing a Dx and getting the **** sued out of them.

FFS, know what that is? Read up on the medical malpractice myth please. All this unsubstantiated talk based on hearsay is getting old.
 
Tom Baker, The Medical Malpractice Myth. Evidence, not myth or anecdotes.

Treating more gets you paid, so they do it. It makes sense. Doctors are economic actors. (Being such an actor is not necessarily to be looked down upon, so calm down.)

Calm down? You ok man?

And no, treating one patient "more" can just waste your time and pay you less than seeing more patients.

However, the possibility of a lawsuit from missing something by not doing more is a threat which causes increased costs.

You need to spend some time around doctors to know how it works. Some lame book written by a lawyer isn't going to cut it.
 
Calm down? You ok man?

And no, treating one patient "more" can just waste your time and pay you less than seeing more patients.

However, the possibility of a lawsuit from missing something by not doing more is a threat which causes increased costs.

Tom Baker.
 
Calm down? You ok man?

And no, treating one patient "more" can just waste your time and pay you less than seeing more patients.

However, the possibility of a lawsuit from missing something by not doing more is a threat which causes increased costs.

You need to spend some time around doctors to know how it works. Some lame book written by a lawyer isn't going to cut it.

Prophylaxis in case someone jumps on me again and accuses me for implying that being an economic actor is not in line with the morals of the profession. It's happened before, sadly.
 
Unsubscribing this thread. Always good to have an MCAT break, but don't want too much of a good thing!

We're all screwed in the end. It matters not who is right or wrong.
 
If med school were free (subsidized by the government), would a salary of 125k-150k for primary care docs and 150k-200k for specialists be ok?
 
If med school were free (subsidized by the government), would a salary of 125k-150k for primary care docs and 150k-200k for specialists be ok?

Only if we work the hours they do in Europe...which are less than the hours doctors work here.
 
The insurance companies agreed to it. (Kinda.) They won't say it publicly, but the reason reform passed was because Obama got all the stakeholders and made compromises with all of them before anything made public. Google it and you'll find much praise for this tactic, as it was the only way to get the AMA, PhRMA, AAMC, etc., all behind the bill when the same groups have opposed reform every single time in history.

Overall, though, ACA still forces people to the private market, so it's hardly socialism if HI companies are still running the operations. It's not like the public option passed. (SIGH)

^^^ is this guy serious????

Sounds like you have been drinking the kool aid hard and I'm afraid you're in for a rude awakening.


Good luck with the MCAT.....
 
^^^ is this guy serious????

Sounds like you have been drinking the kool aid hard and I'm afraid you're in for a rude awakening.


Good luck with the MCAT.....

Yes, I was serious. Please enlighten me if you feel otherwise, instead of saying nothing about anything.

Thanks, luck is really all I need at this point.
 
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