Everything You Need To Know About ASPEN DENTAL

[jwdent]

just wanted to point out that dentistry and dental services are very different than eye glasses and drugs; which, are the same no matter where you buy them. All they have to compete on is cost.

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[ortho lurker]

I agree that the corporate model will probably keep expanding, but isn't the phrase "to put food on the table" a bit dramatic? I imagine that most new grads that go corporate could pick up an associate position and still get by just fine. They may choose to go corporate (which is of course a legitimate choice), but it's not like a do-or-die sort of thing.

I suppose there could be more of a saturation problem than I realize though...

If it were that easy for every new grad to pick up an associate position at a private office, why would corporate places still exist? Do you really think a new grad would pick Aspen over a private associateship if given the choice and offered the same salary? Many old doctors aren't busy enough to keep associates anymore and have to keep working themselves because their investments tanked and can't afford retirement. Sure there are the community clinics and prison systems, but if you enjoy doing more dentistry than almagams and extractions, then those won't be very good options. And yes, there is always start your own office but for every 1 business that is successful, how many will fail? (If everyone succeeded in business, there would be no associates and just look at all the dental practice sales for sale across the nation in the classifieds section of dentaltown). Try putting food on the table when you have $3-5K a month in student loans in addition to the other living expenses such as rent, transportation, electricity, heating, etc. with part-time, underpaying, or no job.

And yes, medicine is also heading in that direction. I spoke to my cousin who is in his 40s and is a partner in a urology group in Maryland and he considers himself a dinosaur (I know, small sample size but just consider this for discussion). With all the red tape and inefficiencies of Obamacare, it will no longer be as profitable to have a private practice in medicine. If someone was smart, they would start an Aspen Medical franchise across the country now.

 

[HopeforDMD]

If it were that easy for every new grad to pick up an associate position at a private office, why would corporate places still exist? Do you really think a new grad would pick Aspen over a private associateship if given the choice and offered the same salary? Many old doctors aren't busy enough to keep associates anymore and have to keep working themselves because their investments tanked and can't afford retirement. Sure there are the community clinics and prison systems, but if you enjoy doing more dentistry than almagams and extractions, then those won't be very good options. And yes, there is always start your own office but for every 1 business that is successful, how many will fail? (If everyone succeeded in business, there would be no associates and just look at all the dental practice sales for sale across the nation in the classifieds section of dentaltown). Try putting food on the table when you have $3-5K a month in student loans in addition to the other living expenses such as rent, transportation, electricity, heating, etc. with part-time, underpaying, or no job.

And yes, medicine is also heading in that direction. I spoke to my cousin who is in his 40s and is a partner in a urology group in Maryland and he considers himself a dinosaur (I know, small sample size but just consider this for discussion). With all the red tape and inefficiencies of Obamacare, it will no longer be as profitable to have a private practice in medicine. If someone was smart, they would start an Aspen Medical franchise across the country now.

I never said these hypothetical grads would receive the same salary, or that landing the position would be as quick or easy as signing a corporate contract. That's what makes is a serious choice, and why I acknowledged going corporate as a rational decision, whether wise or not. I'd still say it's usually a choice though, not a dire necessity.

Interesting stuff about medicine I guess. My physician was complaining about something similar. I'm betting both we and the doctors will be just fine though.

 

[yappy]

Regarding medicine - what's disheartening is that I've heard that because of regulations, laws, and ins it is difficult for some fields to operate their own office. What blows me away is that it reeks of crony capitalism; where, through legislation, corporations create conditions where they're most likely to succeed and their competition cannot. ie expensive mandatory EMR's or bundled payments which lend themselves better to a horizontal business model. WTF happened to our country.

BTW: If corp dentistry can grow their practices to include associates why can't existing private offices?

 

[Cold Front]

Better Business Bureau (BBB) received about 1,000 ASPEN complaints from ASPEN patients. Almost 300 of which were filed within last year, which is about 1 complaint a day. About half of the complaints are based on dental services patients received from ASPEN, a third is related to billing. This is very consistent with the lawsuit filed against ASPEN. Almost all complaints couldn't have been resolved without BBB taking action.

http://www.bbb.org/upstate-new-york...east-syracuse-ny-5000635/Complaints#breakdown

Still not sure how BBB rated ASPEN a B+ from A to F scale, considering ASPEN has this info under the BBB website.

Reason for Rating

BBB rating is based on 16 factors. Get the details about the factors considered.

Factors that lowered the rating for Aspen Dental include:

• Government action(s) against business

Factors that raised the rating for Aspen Dental include:

• Length of time business has been operating.
• Complaint volume filed with BBB for business of this size.
• Response to 943 complaint(s) filed against business.
• Resolution of complaint(s) filed against business.
• BBB has sufficient background information on this business.

As ASPEN grow, so will the complaints. The public will eventually know how bad this chain is for their oral health.

 

[ortho lurker]

Regarding medicine - what's disheartening is that I've heard that because of regulations, laws, and ins it is difficult for some fields to operate their own office. What blows me away is that it reeks of crony capitalism; where, through legislation, corporations create conditions where they're most likely to succeed and their competition cannot. ie expensive mandatory EMR's or bundled payments which lend themselves better to a horizontal business model. WTF happened to our country.

BTW: If corp dentistry can grow their practices to include associates why can't existing private offices?

It's not that private offices can't grow their practices to include associates, it's that the dental chains have an easier time to do so. Here are a few reasons why:

1. They have deeper pockets. They get outside investors to help with their day-to-day operations and marketing that you cannot afford. Billboards, ads on buses, direct mailing, tv & radio advertisements, etc. all cost $!!!

2. They get preferred dental insurance provider status. Ever notice how not all dental insurance providers are created the same? They get more HMO and PPO in-network new patients compared to a smaller private practice, and I am sure that a few kick-backs up top won't hurt the cause.

3. They can afford street-level, prime retail center space with large signage. Most new grads can't afford this straight out of school, but if you are one of the fortunate ones who can, more power to you!

4. They have more purchasing power and can streamline their operations and expenses for supplies, technology, and labs because they can buy in bulk. Many have call centers and central billing to support their network of busy offices.

5. They can afford to hire in-house specialists and to make doctors and staff travel. To keep an in-house specialist in your private office, you would need enough work to keep them busy or they will leave or you will lose $ by paying them more than they can produce. Staffing issues are also a major concern if you try to cross-train your staff.

These are just a few examples and I know that chains have more mouths to feed such as the VPs, regional managers, etc. and it is disheartening that people with high school diplomas have more power over you, but this is the reality. Of course it would be all of our dreams to own our own group practice where we hire associates and wouldn't have to show up to work and still make $, but the reality is that this is still the exception and not the rule (just look at your neighborhood and compare the # of successful group practices compared to single doctor dental offices). Aim high but just realize that even if you protest and boycott working for a chain, someone hungrier such as a foreign-trained dentist will still take up a spot.

 

[DentinBond]

In the long term, corporate practices fail because they treat human beings as interchangeable, temporary and disposable. And by that I mean employees and patients.

I don't want to repeat my comments but I made a detailed statement about corporate dentistry over on the thread:

Corporate dentistry,Obamacare, and Midlevel providers/dental therapists

 

[Cold Front]

It's not that private offices can't grow their practices to include associates, it's that the dental chains have an easier time to do so. Here are a few reasons why:

1. They have deeper pockets. They get outside investors to help with their day-to-day operations and marketing that you cannot afford. Billboards, ads on buses, direct mailing, tv & radio advertisements, etc. all cost $!!!

2. They get preferred dental insurance provider status. Ever notice how not all dental insurance providers are created the same? They get more HMO and PPO in-network new patients compared to a smaller private practice, and I am sure that a few kick-backs up top won't hurt the cause.

3. They can afford street-level, prime retail center space with large signage. Most new grads can't afford this straight out of school, but if you are one of the fortunate ones who can, more power to you!

4. They have more purchasing power and can streamline their operations and expenses for supplies, technology, and labs because they can buy in bulk. Many have call centers and central billing to support their network of busy offices.

5. They can afford to hire in-house specialists and to make doctors and staff travel. To keep an in-house specialist in your private office, you would need enough work to keep them busy or they will leave or you will lose $ by paying them more than they can produce. Staffing issues are also a major concern if you try to cross-train your staff.

These are just a few examples and I know that chains have more mouths to feed such as the VPs, regional managers, etc. and it is disheartening that people with high school diplomas have more power over you, but this is the reality. Of course it would be all of our dreams to own our own group practice where we hire associates and wouldn't have to show up to work and still make $, but the reality is that this is still the exception and not the rule (just look at your neighborhood and compare the # of successful group practices compared to single doctor dental offices). Aim high but just realize that even if you protest and boycott working for a chain, someone hungrier such as a foreign-trained dentist will still take up a spot.

Yes, corporate dentistry have the big purchasing power and can afford anything under the sun, but IF the formula has no dentist in it, the whole business has zero net value.

I can't understand why dentists give in to something that is worth less than their license. A dental license (dentist) is the center of all corporate dentistry, take it away, and you have a private equity sitting behind a desk with no patients to keep their doors open.

 

[Bobby Fischer]

Yes, corporate dentistry have the big purchasing power and can afford anything under the sun, but IF the formula has no dentist in it, the whole business has zero net value.

I can't understand why dentists give in to something that is worth less than their license. A dental license (dentist) is the center of all corporate dentistry, take it away, and you have a private equity sitting behind a desk with no patients to keep their doors open.

Thats why they want the dental therapist angle opened up as broadly as possible ASAP.

 

[ortho lurker]

Yes, corporate dentistry have the big purchasing power and can afford anything under the sun, but IF the formula has no dentist in it, the whole business has zero net value.

I can't understand why dentists give in to something that is worth less than their license. A dental license (dentist) is the center of all corporate dentistry, take it away, and you have a private equity sitting behind a desk with no patients to keep their doors open.

I admire your integrity and resolve, but in the end this will be a fruitless battle. Even if you are hypothetically able to convince all the U.S. dental grads to stay away from the chains, what about the international students? NYU pumps out 200+ of them a year, California grants dental licenses to Mexican graduates, and more and more dental schools are increasing their international class sizes because they are huge $ grab. And this is only the tip of the iceberg.... I predict that in our lifetime, the chains will eventually hire dental therapists (there will be 1 "lead dentist" at each office and 10 therapists doing the work). If you haven't already figured it out, it's all about corruption--greedy chain owners will fund sleezy politician to get their way. Now this is not a doomsday scenario because the chains typically cater to the lower middle class, but it will make it much tougher for private practice owners to compete for the remaining upper middle class to rich people (if this sector isn't already saturated). The only thing that we can do is to look out for ourselves and do the best that we can do because we really have no control over what goes on with the chains, dental therapists, influx of international students, new dental schools opening, etc. Make as much and sock away as much as possible because we can't predict what will happen tomorrow.

 

[TJNova2011]

I admire your integrity and resolve, but in the end this will be a fruitless battle. Even if you are hypothetically able to convince all the U.S. dental grads to stay away from the chains, what about the international students? NYU pumps out 200+ of them a year, California grants dental licenses to Mexican graduates, and more and more dental schools are increasing their international class sizes because they are huge $ grab. And this is only the tip of the iceberg.... I predict that in our lifetime, the chains will eventually hire dental therapists (there will be 1 "lead dentist" at each office and 10 therapists doing the work). If you haven't already figured it out, it's all about corruption--greedy chain owners will fund sleezy politician to get their way. Now this is not a doomsday scenario because the chains typically cater to the lower middle class, but it will make it much tougher for private practice owners to compete for the remaining upper middle class to rich people (if this sector isn't already saturated). The only thing that we can do is to look out for ourselves and do the best that we can do because we really have no control over what goes on with the chains, dental therapists, influx of international students, new dental schools opening, etc. Make as much and sock away as much as possible because we can't predict what will happen tomorrow.

Good thing you need one dentist to over look 5 dental therapist . On a positive note, but very unfortunate, with the work a majority of the foreign and dental therapy students graduates producing, it'll keep many other dentists busy.

 

[Cold Front]

Good thing you need one dentist to over look 5 dental therapist . On a positive note, but very unfortunate, with the work a majority of the foreign and dental therapy students graduates producing, it'll keep many other dentists busy.

 

[Cold Front]

The vitriol flowing from the nostrils is clouding both vision and judgement. Dentists in private practice will continue to abhor corporate dentistry even if it was the quintessential model; those employed by corporate dentistry will, at best/worst, be ambivalent. In all likelihood, at least some members of the 2013 class will be thrilled to know that there are "over 130 dentist positions available".

It hasn't been 2 weeks, and ASPEN DENTAL added over 40 new available dentist positions throughout it's chain, bringing the current total to 177. The company is still going with plans to open 1 office a week, while most of it's current dentists can simply leave their posts with 2 weeks notice, adding more open positions to the network. When will the big bubble burst?

 

[doc toothache]

It hasn't been 2 weeks, and ASPEN DENTAL added over 40 new available dentist positions throughout it's chain, bringing the current total to 177. The company is still going with plans to open 1 office a week, while most of it's current dentists can simply leave their posts with 2 weeks notice, adding more open positions to the network. When will the big bubble burst?

Just when it looked like this post might be flatlining. Will this post ever rip?

 

[Cold Front]

It hasn't been 2 weeks, and ASPEN DENTAL added over 40 new available dentist positions throughout it's chain, bringing the current total to 177. The company is still going with plans to open 1 office a week, while most of it's current dentists can simply leave their posts with 2 weeks notice, adding more open positions to the network. When will the big bubble burst?


Just when it looked like this post might be flatlining. Will this post ever rip?

This thread should be a "sticky" to inform new grads.

 

[bsmcga0]

Just heard from a friend that works at Monarch in Texas the State is requesting charts and records from several of their locations. Even interviewing the doctors about how they are paid and if they are pressured to increase production. He said everybody is going crazy because they can't find all the models, x-rays, ect.

 

[Jim nolan]

I worked with them 2 months...garbage....they are garbage...they suck you dry....corporate dentistry just cares about dumb idiots who are willing to work like dogs for them....if you are a loser with no comm. skills than they love you, because you are the ***** who will make them money while you get ****t salary

 

[Daurang]

Better Business Bureau (BBB) received about 1,000 ASPEN complaints from ASPEN patients. Almost 300 of which were filed within last year, which is about 1 complaint a day. About half of the complaints are based on dental services patients received from ASPEN, a third is related to billing. This is very consistent with the lawsuit filed against ASPEN. Almost all complaints couldn't have been resolved without BBB taking action.

http://www.bbb.org/upstate-new-york...east-syracuse-ny-5000635/Complaints#breakdown

Still not sure how BBB rated ASPEN a B+ from A to F scale, considering ASPEN has this info under the BBB website.

[

BBB will give an A to anyone willing to pay their extortion membership fee. There was an undercover investigation in which the Hamas terrorist organization paid $425 to the BBB, and then received an A-.

 

[Cold Front]

BBB will give an A to anyone willing to pay their extortion membership fee. There was an undercover investigation in which the Hamas terrorist organization paid $425 to the BBB, and then received an A-.

I would not be surprised.

Another chain like ASPEN is in hot waters, DentalWorks (formerly known as Sears Dental). A good sign that change is coming to corporate dentistry.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/front...ks-chain-misdiagnosed-for-money-dentists-say/

 

[Bobby Fischer]

This video was posted in another subforum. It speaks directly to the problems inherent with the big government-corporate axis of evil (e.g. Aspen) getting its grubby, evil hands into the honey pot:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/dollars-and-dentists/

My problem with the documentary is that it is PBS and so of course, it simultaneously rakes the for-profit corporate dentistry over the coals and then proceeds to laud the Big Government's not-for-profit model (tax exemption is that Sarrell Dental CEO's key to gorging himself at the trough). PBS seemed to scrutinize the quality of care of the for-profit corporate chain fastidiously enough, yet LEFT THE TOPIC OF QUALITY UNTOUCHED WITH THE NOT-FOR-PROFIT CORPORATES & DENTAL THERAPISTS.

PBS also omitted to explain why the Alabama dentists were claiming they can't compete with the not-for-profit model in their so-called 'secret' meeting (note the carefully spliced out of context editing LOL...okay not so inconspicuous). Its because the quality of care provided by the dentists working for not-for-profits are generally of half the quality & private dentists (who provide decent or better long term quality) don't get the tax exemptions. That is why private dentists can't compete with not-for-profits.

The playing field is 50% less level automatically out of their favor for private dentists because they don't get the power of the entire IRS fighting for them to save 50% of their monies like the not for profits do. In fact, as we all know the average provate dentist practicioner has 50% of their income stolen by the IRS thieves every year. Which is promptly 'redistributed' (got to love marxism in the marketplace) to the not for profits (through tax exempt status) and/or for profits (reimbursed by tax dollars but only make a profit if the volume is high and the quality is low).

And that doesn't include the theft via legal counterfeiting on top of that every year (inflation). America is quickly circling the toilet bowl to third world quality of everything (including wal-mart as mentioned in the 'secret' recordings).

dental therapists...yeah. enough said.

the results of all the high dental school tuition debt (made possible by government involvement in loans) + not for profit status protecting the government-corporate models + government reimbursement for high volume/ low quality work is the same thing: pressure to perform low quality, high quality work and the dentist as debt slave.

the dentist is a debt slave working in a high quantity/ low quality situation in not-for-profits and nor profit corporations.

The problem with the for profit is dental school tutition rates driving debt ridden graduates to work in those salt mines while money grubbing non-dentists call the shots (literally). Funded by medicare ie taxdollars of course.

The problem with the not for profit is the dentist has no incentive to produce high quality work and the CEOs make off like bandits and call the shots (literally). Funded by medicare ie taxdollars of course.

And private dentists are the taxpayers so, yeah, they are paying for their own subversion with hack/ desperate dentists who are for all intents and purposes employed by the government at the end of the day: in either the for profit or not for profit model the result is the same: low quality/ high volume dental 'care'.

The common denominator is government over-involving itself with taxing (tuition lending as well because tutition at d school is only as high as it is because the government will lend out that much) in the first place and then compounding the problem by involving itself with disbursing its ill gotten gains.

power and the love of money corrupts. Absolutely. Big Government Obamanation and Big Corporation Obamanation are equally as evil.

Duty #1 of the big government-corporate axis of evil is to constantly swing the pendulum wildy in the other's favor to obfuscate the root of the problem as described above. This documentary does just that.

 

[Noble6]

I honestly hope I don't end up at a corporate practice but if it's what is available, it certainly beats working for a chain medicaid office. At the end of the day, I'm going to need a job and if I can buy some time there while I prepare to purchase my practice, it may work out for me.

 

[lazyindy]

bumping this thread. This NEEDS to get stickied on SDN as it contains valuable information and the truths to working in a corporate environment.

 

[ncide]

Not all corporate venues are like Aspen. I worked close to 3 years for a corporate dental company and the difference between that company and others was that it offered its own insurance. By doing so, doctors were actively persuaded to stress preventative care over invasive procedures. It was in the company's interest to keep high cost procedures to a minimum.